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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 30 May 2000

Vol. 520 No. 1

Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 2000 [ Seanad ] : Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

It is vital that the Minister introduces identity cards. We must be ruthless in dealing with publicans and licensees who knowingly and deliberately sell drink to underage persons. How can we withdraw the mandatory law that allows for some doubt if we do not introduce ID cards? All sorts of plastic cards are available. Banks can produce them in a matter of days so why can we not do so? If young people aged 18 or over do not want to drink they will not have to obtain ID cards, but if they want to become involved in clubs or public houses they should carry such cards. I would fully support any measures, however draconian, to curb the scourge of underage drinking.

We have to come to grips with a situation which is totally out of control. Each new survey confirms a further reduction in the age threshold at which youngsters begin drinking. According to the surveys, young people of 12, 13 and 14 are openly admitting that they drink alcohol. Young people are now starting to drink at a very early age and the Minister must deal with this major problem. It cannot be denied that at least some teenage pregnancies, which are increasing, are connected with alcohol abuse. The real problem is not being addressed in a coherent way.

Elderly people in towns and villages have brought to my notice the problem of young people leaving hotels and dicsos at night. There is genuine fear among the elderly and business people when such crowds congregate outside chip shops at night. The Minister must ensure that this problem is dealt with. We must encourage those who want to drink to do so in moderation. We have run anti-smoking campaigns, and rightly so, because smoking can cause cancer. Drink can also be a cancer, however, so we need a similar campaign to point out the result of alcoholism and to encourage and promote sensible drinking habits.

We also need to provide care for those with an alcohol problem. On many occasions in my area people have sought help from the health board, but have had to travel to Newry, Galway or elsewhere to obtain treatment. If the Government is serious about having a coherent policy on licensing the sale of alcohol and controlling consumption, it must ensure that those who are unfortunate enough to find themselves with a serious habitual problem are cared for. I have had to deal with individual cases that have caused extremely serious problems in families. We want to support families and encourage them not to expose their young members to situations where alcohol is available late at night. Young people must not see this as the only way of socialising and they must not be left uncared for. They should be encouraged to follow their parents' example. That is part of the reason for introducing proper regulations.

Like Deputy Deenihan, I have also been lobbied by supermarkets and I understand that some of those letters have already reached the Minister's office. Small supermarket proprietors are worried that the bigger consortia, such as Tesco and Dunnes Stores – although perhaps I should not use these names in the House – have privileges that they do not enjoy. It does not seem logical that wine should be freely available in such supermarkets while beer is not. I hope that matter will be re-examined on Committee Stage.

I have also been lobbied by the GAA and by golf clubs which want some of the Bill's provisions looked at again to make them more workable and more sensible. In isolated rural areas, public meetings are often held in the local clubhouse, and it would be a pity if such meetings could not be publicly advertised. As a politician, one would be afraid to have one's photograph taken in such a place if the Bill were to remain without amendment.

There is a need for a change in the law on the transfer of liquor licences. Current measures gov erning the issuance of new licences in larger towns and cities are unbelievable. When one sees the millions of pounds being paid for licensed premises, it shows how ludicrous that law is. There is a surplus of liquor licences in many rural areas so ways must be found to open up that market. Most public houses and discos run their premises in a reasonable and orderly way, but difficulties have arisen. The present licensing laws do not provide enough options to those who wish to object to a premises having its licence renewed. As the law stands, the District Court can only renew or refuse when a licence comes up for reallocation at the September court. Most of the licences are given without going to court and that situation should be examined. As an enforcement measure, a licensee should be liable to lose his or her licence for a few days or weeks.

Other difficulties can arise concerning licensed premises. I came across a case recently where a licensee failed to obtain a licence because of a taxation problem that was not the fault of the licensee. When the licensee went to get the licence renewed, the authorities were heavy-handed and insisted that the premises should be reconstructed. The Minister must ensure that the law is evenly applied so that people who have reasonable premises will be entitled to a licence.

I wish to share my time with Deputy McGuinness.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the Bill and recognise that the Minister has fulfilled a commitment by introducing the legislation. It is important to note that the Minister has remained in the House throughout Second Stage. As a member of the Vintners Federation of Ireland and a licence holder, I obviously have an interest in seeing the Bill enacted. All the issues referred to by the VFI over the years have been successfully addressed in the legislation. Few people would disagree that the law governing the sale of intoxicating liquor has been in need of reform for many years. This legislation is not being rushed through the House. In my three years in this House, I have seen wide consultation by the Minister with all the interested groups. This time last year I was somewhat critical of the Minister for not addressing the issue as hastily as I had hoped but I fully recognise now that the consultation period had to be extensive to ensure that all the various interest groups had an input into the legislation.

The Bill is welcome from a number of viewpoints. It deals with all the issues raised over the years such as the need for longer opening hours, so often sought by the consumer and, to a lesser extent, the tourism industry. It also provides clarity for sports and recreation clubs. One of the most important aspects of the Bill is the tightening of the law in relation to underage drinking. Anybody who has been involved in local politics, particularly at health board level, will recognise the major concern about the difficulties caused by underage drinking and the increase in the number of people in psychiatric care, which has been brought about by the scourge of underage drinking. That is an important part of the legislation. I will refer later to that change and ask for an amendment to that part of section 3.

I welcome the fact that the Bill removes the holy hour closing period on Sundays. That will make it easier to sell beer in restaurants, something that has been campaigned for over many years. The Bill also allows for more exemptions in relations to festivals and other occasions of celebration. It abolishes the need for night clubs to serve a meal. Overall, the Bill brings the State's licensing laws into the 21st century and introduces a sense of realism to the idea of selling alcohol. That shows the commitment of the Minister who listened to the various representations over recent years.

The Minister proposes strengthening the law in relation to underage drinking. The main measure in this regard is the provision allowing for the closure of premises found to be in breach of this section. That measure will be welcomed by those concerned with the increasing problems of teenage alcohol addiction and general substance abuse among young people. Publicans whom I have met are somewhat concerned about it but I understand the Minister's commitment to resolving the problem. I will not come into this House to praise the Minister on the one hand and then immediately criticism him on the other. I am fully aware of his commitment to resolving this issue.

I would like the Minister to closely examine this issue by way of recognising, which I am sure he does, that the Licensed Vintners' Association and the Vintners Federation of Ireland have consistently outlined their concern regarding underage drinking. I would go so far as to say they have encouraged measures to deal with this problem. We have seen the voluntary ID card operating in some counties. Part 3 deals with that issue and puts an onus on the courts to impose, on conviction for a first offence, a mandatory temporary closure order. I would be concerned that the courts, in the absence of a mandatory national ID card, could have the discretion to decide upon a genuine error made by a publican or a member of staff rather than the case of a regular law breaker. It is in no publican's interest to have the name of allowing young people to drink in his or her premises, but I have to think about the country publican who is left to run the pub on his or her own. I do not want to take away from the serious attempt by the Minister to resolve this problem but I have to take into consideration the publican working alone who may have a back snug or lounge in which somebody who may be underage is given a drink.

I voice concerns about that and that is as far as I will go on it because I fully appreciate the Minister's concern. I am sure he will recognise the concern of publicans as well who want to ensure that they run a good house. It has been well established that publicans take their trade seriously and the level of investment they make in their pubs is an indication of that. More importantly, it is a well known fact that publicans regularly send their staff either on brewery or CERT courses and all that adds up to a genuine attempt on their part to ensure that their premises are run in a professional manner and that there is no underage drinking.

I welcome the fact that the extended opening hours have been recognised by the Minister. For many years consumers and indeed tourists demanded extended opening hours. That is also something that the publicans, by way of a vested interest, have demanded. They make the point that they find it difficult to explain, particularly to tourists, the reason they have to leave their premises just as the party is starting, as it were. The vintners have also made the point that extending the hours will not increase the level of alcohol consumption because there is a finite amount of money available for that purpose. This is a practical response to the demand from the tourism industry to ensure that a good time can still be had by all. The socialising habits of Irish people have changed considerably in recent years. People travel abroad more often and see the way those in other countries socialise, and we are making similar demands.

Sports and recreation clubs throughout the country provide a valuable social, recreational and amenity service in their communities. They are often at the forefront in community development and it is fair to say that many communities depend on the local club to help raise funds for charities etc. This section provides much needed clarity for clubs and the Minister has tidied up the law in relation to visiting teams whereby those teams can now be signed in as a group. The Minister has introduced many provisions throughout the Bill that make the working of this legislation easier on all those who have responsibility for managing licensed premises.

I welcome the Minister's reference to the establishment of a commission which will ensure that the process of reform will be ongoing and responsive to the needs of consumers, the industry and all the other interested parties. There has been some comment recently that publicans have forced through many of these measures for their own gain. Few people would argue that something could be forced on the Minister. He has consulted widely with all the interested groups and presented a finely balanced Bill. I have met people from the VFI throughout the country over the past few weeks and they and many publicans welcome the many changes. While others might argue they will make the day even longer, there is general agreement within the trade that there will not be a significant increase in the quantity of alcohol sold. Customers will be able to get a drink at a time that most suits their lifestyle.

The main beneficiaries of the Bill will be the consumers, those who enjoy a drink in their local pub at a time when it is most convenient to them and their friends. It is also welcomed by the tourism industry and it brings us into line with European law. The Bill goes a long way towards addressing the wide-ranging interests of the consumer, the tourism industry, festivals and race courses, to name but a few. It is a modernising and progressive Bill which has found favour with both consumer groups and the VFI.

Over the past three to four years many groups made representations on this issue. They all recognised the value of consultation. The vast majority of pubs are doing their best to ensure a level of accommodation, service and professionalism that matches their European counterparts.

The new provisions for special exemptions will make it easier for towns and villages to obtain exemptions for festivals and sporting occasions. That is welcome because it is an issue that has been on the agenda for some years. These measures will be welcomed also by those involved in the tourism industry who see reform in this area as vitally important if we are to continue attracting visitors. It is well recognised that tourism is our largest industry and this is a low cost way of supporting that industry. The Exchequer is the net beneficiary.

On the issue of the sale of alcohol in restaurants, the law on the sale of beer in restaurants was too restrictive, as witnessed by the small number of restaurants which avail of this provision. It is a strange law that allowed a person to sell produce from another country but forbade the same business from selling an Irish product. The provision in this regard will benefit Irish brewers in that it will remove the anomaly whereby foreign produced wine is freely available while local goods are not.

The holy hour is something we always wanted to see abandoned and I welcome that provision. I thank the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, for meeting the various representative groups in the recent past. I suggest that, as we move to make life easier for the consumer, we should recognise the difficulty of life for the publican. As we update legislation governing the sale of alcohol, we should take into account the considerable difficulties often visited upon publicans. I ask the Minister to ensure, over the coming years, that publicans have the right to command and run their own premises. Provision should be made whereby publicans retain the right to ensure that, whoever they serve on their property, good practice is continued on their premises.

If there is a doubt on the part of the publican or some difficulty arises, I suggest that the publican should have the right to refuse service, to ensure the safety of the other customers. I speak as someone who is involved in this business and I am aware that this issue is a cause of concern. It is difficult for a publican to ensure the safety of customers if he does not know the customers he is serving. Provision should be made in future to ensure that some protection exists.

I welcome the Bill. The Minister has given it considerable thought and it will receive full support across the board.

Like previous speakers, I join with this side of the House in welcoming the Bill. It acknowledges that society has changed considerably over recent years. This was not reflected generally in the licensing laws. The pattern of drinking, how we approach it and how we celebrate and socialise has changed. This Bill acknowledges that change in our social make-up and in the manner in which we use pubs, hotels, clubs and so on. We need to reflect that change in our laws. We need laws that are realistic and deal with the real world. For far too long, particularly in regard to this issue, we had laws that did not relate to daily life. The laws were flouted and were not policed. They could not be policed because social change had taken place and a different structure was needed.

I am pleased the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, before bringing this Bill before the House, went through a process of consultation, not only with those who have a vested interest, such as pubs, hotels and clubs, but also with us as politicians who represent the public. The Minister asked all of us our opinions on the legislation required.

The Bill represents quite a radical change in terms of updating the law and introducing new measures which will deal with the changing times in which we live. It will also help those who frequent public houses. One of the central issues in relation to a Bill like this is that every organisation has a view on it, and the challenge was to have that view accepted widely. The Minister rose to that challenge and gained general acceptance, and what we have before us is a Bill which is accepted widely both inside and outside this House. A number of issues were raised by groups and organisations, but for the most part they have been dealt with in the Bill. I compliment the Minister on that and on the many other Bills he has put through this House.

The Bill refers to the setting up of a commission. Given the changes that are proposed in opening hours and in the licensing system, the work of this commission will be extremely important, as will its make-up. The commission, in implementing the provisions of the Bill, should take into account continuous changes that will be required. I note from the Minister's speech that this commission will examine the off-licence and other forms of licence. In the context of changing opening hours, the commission should ensure that people can conduct their business without too many restrictions while at the same time protecting the interests of those who speak out against drinking generally or who wish to restrict drinking hours. The commission will have to examine the nature and activity of clubs and how they operate.

I would like to see the realities of public life reflected in this Bill or in future Bills. Clubs are used widely by many groups and organisations to raise money and host cabarets and a whole range of activities. That should be recognised and legislation which currently restricts various activities within clubs needs to be examined, perhaps not in the context of this Bill but by the commission.

In relation to off-licences and other forms of licences, we need to look at the off-licence trade and how it operates. In my city and in towns throughout the country it is very easy for underage people to gain access to drink from off-licences. Many local authorities are of the view that it is necessary to introduce by-laws to prevent drinking in public places. Drink is being accessed by underage people through off-licences and as a result they are drinking in public places, causing problems for many people who frequent various amenities in cities and towns. This practice is uncontrolled. I would like to see measures in place such as a mandatory ID system – there is reference to that in the Bill. Under such a system the public would be required to have identification cards, thus making it possible for the people in the trade, whether in on-licences or off-licences, to easily identify those who are under age.

Underage drinking acts almost as a gateway to the use of heavier drugs. A problem exists and we cannot ignore it. It is reflected in almost every health board region where pressure is put on the boards to react to the problems caused by alcohol abuse in families. We are talking in most cases about young, underage people drinking. That matter should be addressed. There is another issue which I hope will be reflected in terms of the make-up of the Commission. The transfer and purchase of the 600 unused licences may be taken up by operators of "super pubs" in major urban centres. The commission will need to define the role of local authorities in granting planning permission for the transfer of these licences. I welcome the Bill overall and I commend the Minister.

I propose to share my time with Deputy Naughten. I am glad to have an opportunity to speak on the Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 2000. Vintners and those involved in the licensed trade have sought such a Bill for many years and the Minister has brought it before the House at last. Many will ask why the Bill is necessary. Some people have told me we do not need licensing laws – that the pubs should open 24 hours a day and regulate themselves. This cannot happen because alcohol is a drug which must be regulated.

Many Members of the House are involved in the licensed trade. The vintners will fight for those they represent, which is their democratic right. However, drink is the greatest scourge in this country because it affects, upsets and destroys many families. Everyone has spoken about under-age drinking but nobody mentioned over-age drinking – the scourge of men going home drunk on Saturday and Sunday nights. Many of them did not obey the holy hour and drank through Sunday, Monday and Tuesday in some cases, while their wives and families suffered. Drink is a wonderful thing if it is treated properly and not abused.

There are three kinds of public house in this country – rural pubs, city pubs and night clubs. Most politicians hold their constituency clinics in the pub because people find it easier and more confidential to come into a pub than a rural hall. In many cases the rural pub is also a shop and post office. In bigger towns, such as Castlebar, Ballina and Westport, there is plenty of competition among pubs which are run as good businesses. One night in the past few weeks I went into a pub in this city on three different occasions and the pint of beer was charged at three different prices. Charges are outrageous in the city because there is no competition. While there were restrictions in the transfer of licences in the past, I welcome the fact that the Minister is now providing for the transfer of a licence from one part of the country to another.

The Minister has introduced a fairly good Bill. He has satisfied many people, although he will never satisfy everyone. He should apply the same extension of opening hours to Sunday nights, which will be especially beneficial for rural areas during the tourism season. There is no difference between weeknights and Sunday nights. Those on holidays who do not have to go to work on Monday should not be penalised. There is a short tourism season in my county, Mayo, and the Minister's county, Kerry, which we are trying to extend. Tourists like to spend the day on the beach, shopping or sightseeing, then have a meal and a few pints. It is ridiculous that the pubs will close at a different time on Sunday. Given that the Minister has brought the Bill this far, he should extend the opening hours on Sunday. The Minister is a reasonable man and I think he will do that.

I will ask my party to put down an amendment to this Bill regarding six day licences and I hope it will. I am told there are approximately 105 six day licences in this country, some of which are leased. The Minister, as a solicitor, knows that legally they cannot be leased for five years but must be leased for 11 months, three years or four years. The last time a liquor Bill came through this House, there were approximately 1,500 six day licences and no major restriction in changing a six day licence to a seven day licence. I hope the Minister will remove all restrictions and include all six day licences, whether leased or not, with seven day licences, so that we may be certain of our position.

There have been legal disputes over six day and seven day licences, often because those granting licences have made mistakes issuing. I understand that approximately 200 of these licences have not been cleared. So that the Minister does not misunderstand me when he is responding and says he cannot do this, I am talking about genuine publicans with tax clearance certificates who are paying their rates. The Minister should declare an amnesty – I know that is not a very popular word in this country – for the problem licences so that they can be regulated and transferred to seven day licences.

In fairness to the Minister the vintners cannot complain because, like the taxi licences, he could have introduced 10,000 or 12,000 more licences. He did not do that but he should regulate all licences which will stop people lobbying for the next ten or 15 years. The Minister should deal with the problems which exist in a reasonable way at whatever cost may be involved. After the Bill is passed, all licences should be properly regulated and made seven day licences. I hope the Minister will resolve the problem of six day licences, of which there are only 105 – that is not a large number.

Publicans come in for a great deal of criticism but to be fair, 99.9% of them are decent family people who want to run an honest business and make a living. An uncle of mine is in the pub trade and being a publican is not an easy life. They are up early in the morning, late at night and they have to listen to everybody's problems. This legislation will help to regulate the licensing industry, which is not easy to do. There are interest groups which are against alcohol and its abuse. There is nothing wrong with that because that is their right. I am glad there are people like that who are acting on behalf of the community, young and old. People have to pick up the pieces when alcohol is abused.

I make a plea to the Minister and perhaps he will say the matter is outside his remit. I am not having a go at publicans. There was an article in a newspaper today about overcharging for alcohol. Whatever about that, the greatest scandal is overcharging for minerals – orange, cola and mineral water. An intoxicating liquor licence should restrict the prices charged for minerals. Those who do not drink should not have to subsidise the customers who do. The prices charged for mineral water, cola and orange are outrageous. The Minister and the Government should limit what pubs can charge for minerals. That would be a good thing for the country and would send out the right signals. I support completely the vintners, who do a difficult job, and I welcome the Bill. However, while the federation will say that vintners are in business to make a profit, it is wrong to make profits by penalising people who do not drink by making them pay outrageous prices for coke, mineral water and so on. I would love the Government to take this on board.

I ask the Minister to look at the six day licences. I saw his officials speaking to him. I hope we can have an amnesty to regulate everyone with a six day licence, so that the days of the six day licence will be gone. We should try to regulate every licence with which there is difficulties. I could say more about the Bill but I want to give some time to my colleague.

I welcome the Bill, which is not before time. I told the Minister last December I would wholeheartedly welcome this legislation when it came into the House. The Bill will get rid of the tradition of kamikaze drinking we see when our Dublin cousins come to rural Ireland. When Dublin people come to the country they think the pubs will close at the same time as the Dublin pubs and they down drinks as quickly as possible in case the bar stops serving. That will be resolved by the Bill. The Bill will also bring competition into the Dublin market, which is crying out for it at present. The opening up of the general transfer of licences is a welcome measure.

I want to raise a number of changes I feel should be made in this legislation. We were led to believe when the Minister spoke in the House last December that he would introduce a comprehensive consolidation Bill, but that is not the case. That is a pity because an opportunity was missed to change many archaic procedures in the current licensing legislation.

More importantly, the plans to change the licensing laws have been introduced in complete isolation, without addressing the wider social agenda which is fundamental to the whole debate. We need only look at the broken homes and the hospital casualty units at weekends following road traffic accidents and street and domestic violence to realise the huge problem in Irish society which is sadly ignored by the Bill.

The Minister has failed to look at the issue of the enforcement of this legislation, which could lead to chaos if it is not properly implemented. The proposal to move from the two tier licensing system to a three tier one will lead to further confusion about opening hours. Sunday should be treated as either a weekday or a weekend night, rather than adding a third tier to the system. My preference is to treat Sunday as a weekday night with a closing time of 11.30 p.m., like Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday nights.

More importantly, the Minister failed to grasp the issues of under-age drinking, public disorder and the bad management of pubs and nightclubs. This will lead to chaos on our streets, further demands on Garda resources and the abuse of the rights of young people. This is all due to the failure to tackle the small percentage of cowboy operators in the system.

Elderly and other people living beside pubs and discos must reside alongside modern day hellholes. They are kept awake all night by the disorder outside these premises or at other locations where people congregate. They genuinely fear their homes will be invaded or that they will be attacked by people under the influence of alcohol. Many of them have experienced damage to their property by these louts and, sadly, it is not unusual to see smashed windows on a Sunday morning. A big problem experienced by elderly people is the persistent ringing of doorbells. Many elderly people who live where people congregate at night are being driven crazy by this situation. We must examine this. There are now no-go areas in some towns at weekends. It is a pity to see this happen in our country and we must look at it seriously.

We must also look at the issue of drinking on streets and derelict sites, which is becoming a huge problem. That will require the introduction of by-laws to ban drinking outside licensed premises. These lager louts are in total control of some parts of our towns and villages, which is unacceptable. This raises an issue, not so much of pub licences and the pub trade, but of off licences. It is not unusual in some areas to see nine and ten year old children who are drunk. They are not getting the drink in pubs. We should look at introducing a new law which would make it an offence to purchase alcohol and pass it on to someone under the legal drinking age. I ask the Minister to look at the possibility of tabling an amendment to that effect. It would be difficult to enforce but, at least, we could lay down a marker and try to crack down on it.

In January 1999 the Minister announced the introduction of the national ID card scheme. While it was an optional scheme, it was welcome. However, he failed to provide the necessary resources or administration procedures. Young people had to go to a Garda station, fill out the application form, pay the £5 fee and wait three months to receive an identity card, which was a ridiculous arrangement. Eventually, the Minister realised his mistake and put the necessary procedures in place. However, it still takes up to three weeks for a young person to get an identity card. When the scheme was announced by the Minister he stated that identity cards would be available within five working days. However, the new identity card scheme has failed to make any impact for two main reasons.

The first is the possibility of forgeries. If perfect forgeries can be made of driving licences, the same will happen with a national identity card scheme. We must look at some way to ensure they cannot be replicated. One possible control might be to include the RSI number on the ID card, so that a nightclub owner or publican could check it out at a later date and ensure a repeat offence did not happen.

The second reason is that, due to these problems, some nightclubs are not accepting these ID cards. If the nightclubs are not accepting the cards, and I am sure it is the same in some public houses, young people will not get them. Some nightclubs will not accept any ID whatsoever because of the large range of forged IDs available at present and turn people away if they look under 18 years. That means that some people who are over the legal age but look younger are being discriminated against.

Other speakers referred to the problem that the good publican, who made a genuine error or sold drink on his premises to someone who was buying it for younger people he did not see, is treated in the exact same way as the small percentage of cowboys who are abusing the system for their own benefit. We need to examine that, although I know it is a very difficult area. However, a mandatory approach may not be the best way to address this. I ask the Minister to consider whether the introduction of a mandatory seven days penalty for a first offence is the right way to go about it.

I welcome the changes in section 14, where the onus is now put on the publican to ensure the person is over 18 years of age. It is a positive development that the loophole in the existing legislation has been addressed.

The Oireachtas subcommittee that examined this issue recommended that special licensing courts should be established within the Circuit Court. They would have judges permanently assigned who were experts in licensing and related matters, which would ensure consistency in the judgments made. The Minister failed to introduce this in the Bill and that is disappointing. These cowboys who have contempt for residents living in their vicinity and who encourage under age drinking would be wiped out by such courts. It would also combat the drug dungeon night-clubs around the country where people are encouraged to peddle drugs. If we had such courts they could clamp down on these people once and for all rather than sitting once a year to renew licences. Will the Minister look at these matters and bring forward amendments on Committee Stage?

Like previous speakers I commend the Minister and his officials on this Bill, which we have been awaiting for some time. We were told it would be comprehensive, and that it is. I am glad speakers from the Opposition benches have complimented the Minister on this Bill and on the number of other Bills he has introduced. Only a few weeks ago we heard other Opposition Members, though not the same people, condemning him.

Listening to some of the contributions one might think that only pubs are affected by the Bill, but far from it. That is probably one of the reasons the Minister and his officials deliberated on the Bill for so long. It is very difficult to please all Deputies, as we all have different views, but be that as it may, the Minister must have done a very good job if Deputies from all sides are commending him. This is the most fundamental Bill to review and update the existing licensing Acts. Legislation in this area dates back to 1833 and in essence, this Bill updates and consolidates legislation over a period extending back 167 years. That is not a simple task. Extensive and widespread consultation was needed between the Minister, the Government and interested parties, of which there are many. The Bill touches on many aspects of society and those of us representing rural areas, more so than urban Deputies, will know that drink has a big say in the social life of rural Ireland. People in rural Ireland do not have the theatre or other luxuries that city people have; instead they have the pub. The pub is a place for chat and company, particularly for those who are not married, and whether they are farmers or have other jobs, going to the pub one or two nights a week may be their only enjoyment.

The Bill sets out the rights and duties of pub, hotel and club owners in selling intoxicating liquor as well as the rights of service for off-licences. It also updates legislation relating to drinking licences for clubs and consolidates legislation in this field which dates back to the Registration of Clubs Act, 1904, as well as dealing with drinking at racecourse meetings and greyhound racetracks. When one considers the Bill touches on pubs, off-licences clubs, hotels, racecourses and greyhound tracks, it is clear that it is important social legislation. I commend the Minister on his determination and courage in facing up to the need to update legislation in this area, as this would not be an easy task for him or the Government. Many other Governments shied away from the key issue of updating the licensing legislation, which was archaic and outdated in many respects. As a result of widespread consultation with all interested groups, this Bill, which has been passed by the Seanad, should be supported by Deputies, as it is a full and composite Bill, spanning 24 pages and incorporating five different Parts.

Deputy Ring made a valid point about six-day licences. He mentioned a figure of more than 100 six-day licences, but I understand there are approximately 600 such licences. From my reading of the Bill, any person with a six-day, or restricted, licence for a period of five years immediately preceding the commencement of the Bill can, on payment of £2,500 to the Revenue Commissioners, have the licence upgraded to a seven-day licence. I commend the Minister on that. I do not know of any six-day licences in my constituency, though I remember them from years ago, and I realise that some people probably had the foresight to buy up many of these licences. I understand the Minister's intentions when including this provision.

Part 1 is preliminary in nature and refers to the wide variety of Bills it is intended to update, including the Licensing Act, 1902, which is still one of the core Acts governing the sale of intoxicating liquor, though it and other Acts dating back over 167 years are to be updated. The Bill also gives definitions for the operation of different licences.

Part 2 updates the hours when publicans will be entitled to serve drink. Those who lobbied, be they hoteliers, vintners or restaurateurs, are entitled to do so, though it is difficult to please everyone. The last time I spoke on this Bill, in December, I declared an interest, but tonight I do not have that interest. I am trying to be fair as possible and do not want to be seen as selfish. I have been involved in the vintner's trade in my time and it was difficult for vintners to look for additional hours as the hours were very long as they were. However, customers being what they are, they demanded additional time at night as there are so many clubs in operation and publicans did not want to see their customers go elsewhere later in the night. To update the hours when publicans will be entitled to serve drink, required the amendment of section 2 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1927, as well as the other Intoxicating Liquor Acts of 1960, 1962, 1988 and 1995. Businesses selling alcohol are prohibited from serving alcohol on Christmas Day and Good Friday and that is only right and proper. There can be certain restrictions where people are resident in hotels and it can be awkward at times, but in fairness I have not found people to be overly demanding on Good Friday. Christmas Day was different, though Good Friday can be a little awkward in that respect.

Drink can be sold between 12.30 p.m. and 12.30 a.m. on St. Patrick's Day, between 10.30 a.m. and 11.30 p.m. on Christmas Eve and the eve of Good Friday and between 12.30 p.m. and 11 p.m. on Sundays. Everybody will be glad that the holy hour between 2 p.m. and 4 p.m. on Sunday has been abolished. It was a nuisance, especially during the summer when there are matches and games. It was not too bad in the winter. On other Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays, drink can be sold between 10 a.m. and 11.30 p.m. and between 10.30 a.m. and 12.30 p.m. on Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays.

Sunday nights used to be extremely busy for a number of months during the year in rural areas. Now, however, it is not as good. Friday and Saturday nights are the important nights now. There are no seaside resorts in my constituency but my constituents holiday in places such as Ballybunion, Lahinch or Kilkea. They find that 11 p.m. closing on Sunday nights during July and August is useful, especially if they have to get children to bed. I do not have a strong opinion on the matter but perhaps the Minister would consider an extension of another hour on Sunday nights for the summer months of July and August.

The Bill provides for sensible extensions to the time limits in which alcohol is permitted to be served in pubs. It abolishes the holy hour on Sunday afternoons and lengthens pub opening hours for Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays, the key nights for social occasions and outings for many people. These changes are not as dramatic as were sought by some people but I doubt that a man has been born who could occupy the office of Minister and satisfy everybody. It is impossible to do so in the case of the liquor trade. Wholesale extensions to opening hours would not have served or functioned adequately

Part 2, Section 5 relates to the amendment of special exemption orders and updates section 4 of the Public Dance Halls Act, 1935. In future a special exemption order shall expire in cases where it extends to any Monday at 1 a.m. or in any other case at 2.30 a.m., unless the appropriate court for stated reasons considers it expedient to grant the order for a shorter period. A court should not grant a special exemption order in respect of any premises unless it is satisfied that the special occasion mentioned in section 5 will be conducted in a manner which will not cause undue inconvenience to persons residing in the vicinity of those premises.

Section 4 of the Public Dance Halls Act, 1935, is amended as follows:

. a public dancing licence granted by virtue of this Act shall be deemed to be a licence that permits public dancing in the place to which the licence applies for a period not exceeding thirty minutes after any period in respect of which a special exception order (within the meaning of the Licensing Acts, 1833 to 2000) is in force in respect of that place.

Section 7 deals with the rights of clubs to serve intoxicating liquor to their members. On "Morning Ireland", this morning a prominent gentleman put forward his case in this regard, as he is entitled to do like the hotel owners, restaurateurs and nightclub owners. However, such clubs must be registered in accordance with the Registration of Clubs Acts, 1904 to 1999. I have no axe to grind with regard to clubs. In certain areas one can make a good case for them, especially for GAA or rugby clubs in small rural towns which run discos one night a week. Without the money they make from the discos they would probably be unable to survive. However, one can also make a case that a small hotel in the town which operates a small function hall will suffer. It is a difficult decision to make but I believe the Minister has taken the correct approach.

Section 9 deals with area exemption orders. It states that not more than "six orders under the section having effect in any particular year shall be made in respect of any particular locality". Part 3 of the Bill relates to provisions concerning drinking by under-age persons. I believe that 99% of people will commend the Minister for this. I have been requested by the licensed vintners to point out that 99% of them are not in favour of selling drink to under-age persons. However, it is a nightmare for an owner of a licensed premises to find out the age of a person without proper identity cards.

I am lucky in not having experienced that type of young trade but the people I know who have a young trade find it extremely difficult to deal with this problem. If somebody under-age is found on the premises, they believe the law is too harsh. I understand the Minister's objective in this matter. If the law were not so harsh, the 1% or 2% of people who sell liquor to under-age persons would not get the message. The penalty is a temporary closure of seven days in respect of a first offence and of not less than seven and not more than 30 days in respect of a second offence.

The penalty of temporary closure will have the effect, we hope, of ensuring that pub owners will not under any circumstances knowingly provide drink to under-age persons. If somebody I did not know visited the licensed premises and I did not think they were well over 18 years, I refused to serve them drink and told them we could only serve people over 22 or 25 years of age. It is a difficult call to make and I am aware the Minister had a problem dealing with the matter.

Under section 14, "it shall be a defence for the defendant to prove that the person in respect of whom the charge is brought produced to him or her an age card relating to that person". It will also be a defence for the defendant "to prove that he or she used all due diligence to prevent the person under the age of 18 years in respect of whom the charge is brought from being admitted to the part of the licensed premises which is used on foot of an exemption order".

Reference has been made to off-licences in the context of under-age drinking. I tried to ascertain from a garda recently the law with regard to off-licences selling alcohol to under age persons. It is terrible to see young people of 15 and 16 years walking through the streets at night with bags filled with cans of cider and other alcohol. Usually they will congregate in inappropriate places where problems arise and residents call the gardaí. When the gardaí arrive, however, they tell the residents there is nothing they can do.

Perhaps the Minister would explain the law in this regard. I can relay it to the gardaí who told me there were no licensing laws under which they could stop this type of behaviour or prevent off-licences selling drink to under-age people. If these off-licences can be proved guilty of selling alcohol to under-age people, there is no reason they should not suffer the same consequences as the publicans and hoteliers who commit the same offence.

I wish to take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, and his officials for bringing forward this sensible and innovative legislation. The Bill is balanced and fair and has been brought forward following extensive consultations which lasted three years. Having consulted with the Minister and interested groups, I thank him sincerely for his briefings at all times. Members of this House should support this sensible and pragmatic legislation.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Joe Higgins.

I, too, welcome the Bill which has been anticipated for some time. The sale and consumption of alcohol is a major issue in which publicans play a major role. Publicans in general run their businesses correctly within the law and contribute to the society in which they live. They organise fund raising events and so on. It is a social occasion to meet in a pub and the fabric of society generates around the pub, particularly in rural areas. Where there are people, there must be laws. However, I believe order is more important than law. If there is good order, a lot of law is not needed but, if there is bad order, a lot of law is needed. Obviously the law which exists at present is not working.

I welcome the fact that the Minister deals in the Bill with the consumption of alcohol in restaurants. Given the influx of more tourists and the consumer society in which we live, more and more people are eating meals and having drinks in restaurants. This fact was forgotten, as were many other aspects of the law relating to alcohol. I recall when I was a child that drinkers from Newtowncashel travelled to Keenagh, which was five miles away, and the drinkers from Keenagh travelled to Newtowncashel. Therefore, everyone got a slice of the market. People travelled by bicycle to get alcohol under the old three mile limit. This is where the approach towards the sale and consumption of alcohol comes from.

Nowadays it is not a problem to obtain alcohol. I agree there is an emphasis on under age drinking in pubs but most publicans do not want under age people consuming alcohol on their premises. Supermarkets and off-licences now sell alcohol, therefore, there are no restrictions on young people obtaining it. It is freely available in off-licences and so on. There is no point saying legislation will control this phenomenon; it will not. The Government and the State cannot baby sit when it comes to alcohol. This is the responsibility of individuals, families and communities. Alcohol is now available in supermarkets and off-licences, which was not the case 30 or 40 years ago. The reality is that if one could not obtain alcohol in a pub, one could not obtain it at all because it was not otherwise available. There is no point saying any different.

Some publicans have expressed concern about the very strict penalties proposed in the Bill if they are found serving alcohol on their premises to under age people. These are not people who indulge in this practice; they are people who just wonder if these penalties are necessary. Perhaps this is a deterrent to a certain extent but 99% of publicans do not want young people under the age of 18 on their premises.

These licences were introduced in 1902. Almost every premises in towns where fairs were held obtained a licence because obviously they sold bottles of drink on the fair day. When the legislation was enacted, any premises that sold a few bottles of drink on a fair day obtained a licence. This is why towns such as Ballymahon had more than 25 licences at one stage and almost every house in Ballaghaderreen, where fairs were regularly held, had a licence. This was the era in which the licensed trade began. Up to now, the issuing of licences has not respected the sprawling new developments and movement of populations which is taking place at present. There is no point having 15 licences in a town where there are 1,000 souls and one licence in an area where there are 15 souls. This aspect must be updated.

Another major problem at present is opening hours. One can drink in a pub until 12.30 p.m. on Thursday, yet one must leave the pub at 11 p.m. on Sunday. Members of the Vintners Association expressed their complete and utter shock at this proposal. We are all aware that Sunday night is a social occasion in rural areas when most people visit pubs. I cannot understand the reason for this proposal. One theory put forward by members of the Vintners Association is that the Taoiseach did not want people in pubs on Sunday nights because they had to go to work on Monday. However, the same people can be in a pub on Thursday night until 12.30 a.m. while having to get up for work on Friday, or leave a pub on Sunday night at 11.30 p.m., go to the nearest disco and drink for another two hours. There is a drinking song with the following lines:

There are lots of pubs in Wales

And they sell all kinds of ales.

If you want to drink on Sunday

You'll have to wait 'til Monday.

. But did you ever see such a funny sight before?

That goes back to a time when one could not get a drink in Wales on Sunday. Did one ever see such a funny sight? As it is closing time, I will finish my drink.

(Dublin West): One of the main purposes of the Bill is to provide for the extension of opening hours of public houses. The Bill should not provide for this without crucial information being provided either by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform or the Department of Health and Children. I cannot support the Bill given my current knowledge. The important information we need is the impact longer opening hours will have on a number of crucial factors. What impact will they have on the amount of alcohol consumed? What impact will they have on people suffering from the disease of alcoholism and who continue to drink? What impact will they have on social behaviour related to or influenced by alcohol consumption?

Alcohol is a drug which seriously affects people and society when taken to excess. It is amazing that comprehensive studies have not been carried out on the impact of alcohol on Irish society. For a drug about which so much blather is spoken, including by those under its influence, we are distinctly lacking in facts regarding its impact on crucial aspects of life. Alcohol related deaths are an important component of the causes of death in general while alcohol related illnesses are an important proportion of general illness and disease. Cirrhosis of the liver, diseases of the pancreas and various cancers can be attributed to excessive consumption of alcohol, as, unfortunately, can homicides, domestic violence, a nightmare for so many women and in some cases for men, and various accidents. Alcoholism results in a litany of misery for the individual, their families, friends, neighbours and others.

Undoubtedly, the diseases from the abuse of alcohol and unsociable drinking result in a very heavy cost in terms of the resources of society. In terms of psychiatric care, thousands of admissions to institutions each year are related to alcohol. Also, many admissions to acute general hospitals are a result of physical trauma caused by alcohol.

I am not by any means a prohibitionist – I consume alcohol at times – but we must step back and see this for the very serious social phenomenon it is and any change in the law should only come when we have information on the critical issues I have outlined. The Minister or the Minister for Health and Children should have conducted studies or research into these issues. I want to know if the extension of the opening hours of pubs will have a positive or detrimental effect on society and individuals. Only when we have that information will we be in a position to cast an enlightened vote on the matter.

I am sorry the Government has not availed of this opportunity to bring forward legislation on the advertising of alcohol. It is quite outrageous that a substance which is sold to make massive profits for producers and sellers is glamorised to the extent it is through the mass media. I welcome the statement by the Minister for Health and Children's to the effect that he will introduce legislation to ban the advertising of nicotine, and it is logical that there should be legislation banning the advertising of alcohol. I call for an outright ban on the advertising and glamorising in any form of alcohol. The only advertising should be the menu or chart in public houses outlining what is available.

It defies belief that sporting organisations, such as the GAA and some rugby and soccer organisations, have wide-scale sponsorship from drinks companies and prominently advertise a substance which, when used to excess, produces an effect which is opposite to the ethos such organisations try to inculcate. Such groups should have nothing to do with the advertising of alcohol.

From an early stage our education system should include enlightened and intelligent information on alcohol and its consumption. In the same way as there are health warnings on packets of cigarettes, all alcohol containers should include health warnings outlining the negative effects. I am not sure what effect the health warning on cigarettes has on people, but such warnings should exist in any case.

There is an enormous hypocrisy regarding underage drinking. Studies suggest a wide range of young people drink and rather than ritual denunciations we should have an enlightened debate. Regarding my own area, I ask myself and others whether it would be better for the youth who consume alcohol in the hedges, dark corners and lanes to do so in a different type of environment. I would like a debate on these issues to see what is to the benefit of society.

The profiteering in some sections of the drinks industry is outrageous and the Minister should address it. Over-pricing is a huge issue. It is not the major problem, but the Minister should have addressed the fact that stout or beer is much more expensive when bought by the half pint – if the Minister does not bring forward an amendment to address this then I will do so. This is unfair to those who are light drinkers and can be seen as an encouragement for people to drink like sucky calves, as we said in Kerry long ago, rather than in a civilised fashion. As there are probably many publicans in the Houses of the Oireachtas I do not know if it is the best place to secure fair play for drinkers in this regard.

Níl go leor eolais againn anocht chun tacaíocht a thabhairt don Bhille seo. Ba cheart go mbeadh os ár gcomhair amach staidéar ar thorthaí an óil. Tá tionchar mór ag deochanna meisciúla ar shláinte na ndaoine agus ar saol na ndaoine. Leanann galair dáinséaracha agus an-chuid fadhbanna an t-ól. Scriosann sé saol na ndaoine nuair a théann sé thar fóir agus dá bhrí sin ba cheart go mbeadh níos mó eolais againn anseo sul ar féidir linn aon vóta a chaitheamh ar an mBille.

Ba mhaith liom ar deireadh a rá arís gur cheart cosc iomlán a chur ar fhógraíocht a dhéanann scéal mór den ól agus a chuireann an smaoineamh chun cinn gur bhreá an rud é a bheith ag ól agus go bhfuil sé go maith do dhaoine an-chuid a ól. Ba cheart cosc a chur ar fhógraíocht den tsaghas sin.

I wish to share time with Deputy Alyward.

Carlow-Kilkenny): Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this very complex Bill into which the Minister and his officials have put much time and on which they have consulted widely. Like every other Bill we have been very quick to find the pitfalls. There a number of issues with which I would like to deal.

Alcohol consumption and socialising go hand in glove. The public house is one of the great social outlets. Be it a wedding, wake or christening, it is said that it is the publican who benefits. While there are good reasons for this, excessive alcohol consumption gives rise to many social problems. While public representatives are well aware of the problems that can arise when one or more family members drink to excess, this has to be tackled at a different level.

The amendment of the liquor licensing laws as proposed by the Minister is both welcome and long overdue. I wish to address the provisions aimed at tackling under age drinking, a problem in both urban and rural areas. It does not take young people long to discover the outlets from which they can obtain alcohol, be it an off-licence or public house. The main concern of 15 and 16 year olds and younger at weekends is from where they can obtain alcohol and where they can consume it. While it is appreciated that publicans do not wish to patrol the law, if we are serious about facing up to the problems being caused by under age drinking the Minister has no option but to introduce tough legislation. We must knuckle down and accept that this has to be done. As we are all aware young people congregate on every street and park of every small town and village and vandalism and violence, such as the breaking of windows, results from excessive alcohol consumption, which was probably a contributory factor in the violence which erupted on train services following GAA matches over the weekend.

It is seen as manly or part of growing up to take a drink. One has to be able to say when one returns to school on Monday morning or after the Christmas holidays, for example, that one drank alcohol. Ways by which this can be tackled have to be looked at. While one can make young people aware of the pitfalls, to be successful there is a need for serious deterrents in legislation. The serious consequences for the owners of licensed premises of serving persons under the age of 18 years are highlighted in many soap operas across the water. While the onus will be on publicans, if they work hand in glove with the Garda Síochána in relation to identity cards it ought to be possible for them to police the law. While I have reservations about this, the Minister has no option but to face up to the matter in this way.

Twenty-five to 30 years ago many would have said that Sunday was the big night of the week. For me it has become the slow night of the week. While there are occasions which merit an exemption, it is my experience that those who attend football matches or functions on Sunday afternoon in my constituency tend to go home early after a few drinks. Friday and Saturday have become the two big nights of the week.

I welcome many of the provisions of the Bill into which the Minister and his officials have put much time and effort and on which they have consulted widely for the past three years. They could be here for 33 years and still not satisfy everybody. Be that as it may, the Bill is welcome and I commend it to the House.

By the time the Bill has been passed all the great stories that we have heard during the years, particularly in rural Ireland, about the extremes to which people went to get a drink, particularly when a distance clause was included in legislation, will have been told. I am certain there will be big changes in the future. I compliment the Minister on what was a very brave decision to bring this Bill forward. His Department is the busiest I have seen in my time in this House and this is another comprehensive Bill he has introduced. However, no matter what he does it will be hard to satisfy all interest groups. Some will claim he has not gone far enough while others will claim he has gone too far. However, he has struck a good balance.

This review of the legislation has been necessary for many years and some of our legislation in this regard dates from the 1800s. Changes in society require other changes, and the licensing laws are no different in that regard. I applaud the process of consultation in which the Minister engaged. He received numerous written sub missions and had formal and informal meetings with publicans, restaurant owners, hoteliers, night-club owners and many interested groups, including politicians.

The licensed trade is one of the largest industries in the country. It is an important employer and contributes significantly to the economic and commercial activity of the State, both for Government and those who earn their livelihood from the trade. It is proper, therefore, that we devote adequate time to this legislation and I am glad it is before the House at long last.

There is no doubt about the public demand for longer opening hours. There has been a change in the social outlook of consumers in recent years and this is the first step towards self-regulation of the industry. People would have been shocked by such a statement a few years ago but there well be self-regulation in the near future, as is the case in other countries, and that is the best alternative.

Significant changes have taken place in the licensed trade. Most of the pubs in villages in my area do not open until 5.30 p.m. or 6 p.m., unless they serve food, whereas years ago they all opened at 10.30 a.m. This is because people are not frequenting pubs during the day, except when attending funerals or similar occasions. There is a need to recognise this and the legislation is changing accordingly. The Minister is introducing legislation which reflects the public demand.

I welcome the provisions in the Bill. The whole country is now a single licence area and I particularly welcome the abolition of the two for one rule and the need to prove an increase in population. There are publicans in most towns and villages. Years ago, if a licence became available, it was bought by a local publican and closed down. Under the old legislation the pub had to open for one day in the year but those licences were held so that others could not get access to them. There was also an element of speculation in that it was hoped the price would increase dramatically, as has occurred over the years.

This has led to a situation where there are very few pubs in larger urban areas. There is a new word in the language which refers to areas which are "under-pubbed". I welcome the fact that it will now be possible to transfer a licence from a town or village to a major centre of population. There are a number of six day licences in counties Carlow and Clare and I welcome the provision to allow these licences to change to seven day licences. Quite a number of speculators bought six day licences and I applaud the Minister for preventing such people from making excess profits. This shows the depth of thought he has given the legislation and the fact that he has tried to cover all angles. No matter what he does he will not cover everything but he will have an opportunity on Committee and Report Stages to further improve the Bill.

This legislation will result in a fairer spread of licensed premises and will rectify the imbalance between rural and urban areas. The Minister has said that one of the pillars of the Bill was his approach to under-age drinking and he has taken a serious attitude to the issue. One of the biggest problems we have concerns drinking by those, not only under 18 years of age, but by people much younger than that. When this is added to the drugs problem it is imperative that we have a mandatory ID card system. Whatever action needs to be taken must be taken to crack down on under-age drinking.

I accept the need to place greater responsibility on publicans but young people can access to alcohol in a number of ways. We must talk about off licences and supermarkets and the fact that adults are buying drink and giving it to young people. These people must not get off the hook but there is no provision to deal with this problem. People must know they will be equally guilty and will be brought before the law if they buy drink for a minor and there must be provision for such a course of action.

My 16 year old daughter told me she is too old to go to a local disco in a rural area. This disco is a great success and is run for charitable purposes but it is hard to believe the amount of alcohol confiscated on any one night by those running the club. Most of those who attend the disco are 14 years of age. The young people have ways of getting alcohol past the search on the door, such as hiding it in the toilets. This highlights the seriousness of the matter and the Minister will have the support of the House in any action he takes to control under-age drinking.

The vast majority of publicans are honest and hard working people, particularly those in rural Ireland. Publicans help everyone in many different ways, including the entire community. They do a tremendous job. Some argue that being a publican is a licence to print money and there is a good return on being a publican. However, they provide a necessary service.

I particularly welcome the abolition of the difference between summer and winter trading. This is a sensible measure. Tourism is an important industry and tourists find it difficult to understand why they have to leave a pub so early. I am happy with the provision for opening hours of 10.30 a.m. to 11.30 p.m., plus drinking up time, on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, as I am with the opening hours on Thursday, Friday and Saturday of 10.30 a.m. to 12.30 a.m., plus drinking up time.

The issue which required to be addressed most was the 2 p.m. to 4 p.m. closing on Sunday. People play matches on Sunday mornings and like to go to a pub to watch a GAA or soccer match on television, so the 2 p.m. to 4 p.m. closing was ridiculous and I welcome its abolition.

Only one publican to whom I spoke did not wish to retain the rules for Christmas Day and Good Friday. Everyone else felt these were two days they could call their own and they were happy with the current arrangements. However, I ask the Minister to reconsider the 11 p.m. closing time on Sunday. It should be similar to the closing times that will apply to other days. The Minister might reconsider that matter. I welcome the closing time of 12.30 a.m. that will apply to the Sunday of a bank holiday weekend.

I mentioned off licences in supermarkets and other outlets that supply alcoholic drink. We must seriously examine this area. Previous speakers referred to the incident on the train, in which drink was a factor, following the Munster championship match last Sunday.

There is much more I would like to say on this Bill. I welcome the establishment of the commission on licensing with a remit to continue the process of fundamental reform of the law in this area. The Minister has struck the right balance in the legislation. He was brave to introduce it and I commend him on it. Many of his predecessors have walked away from introducing such a Bill, but that is not the Minister's style. The general public are satisfied with it. While the Minister cannot address everyone's demands in this legislation, he has gone a long way towards doing that.

Mr. Coveney

I wish to share my time with Deputies Finucane and Neville.

Carlow-Kilkenny): Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Coveney

I welcome the introduction of this Bill. Reform of our licensing and drinking laws to bring us up to date with modern society and the way it is developing, is long overdue. Before critically assessing aspects of the Bill, I will make some general comments on the negative effect alcohol has on our society. The misuse of alcohol and alcoholism continues to cause massive social, health and family problems. If we are to relax licensing laws and make drink more freely available, we need to ensure measures are put in place, through information and publicity campaigns that highlight the danger of alcohol abuse and the disease of alcoholism, to counteract threats alcohol poses to the weaker sections of our society.

I will concentrate on three parts of the Bills. Has the Minister seriously considered removing a limit on trading hours altogether thereby allowing publicans to decide whether and when their premises should be opened or closed depending on the demand in their community? As long as closing time exists, there will be a mass exodus from public houses at the same time, a habit which is associated with many problems in urban areas. The Garda cannot monitor the number of people on the streets in our towns and cities on weekends immediately after closing time.

The transport problems connected to pub closing time due to an insufficient number of taxis and a lack of public transport available immediately after closing time leads to increased drink driving and large queues of young people under the influence of alcoholic drink waiting impatiently for a lift home. Large groups of young people on the streets under the influence of alcohol is a recipe for drug dealing, harass ment, abusive behaviour and all the other negative social behaviours that are evident on our streets immediately after pub closing time. I am unsure whether the positives of enforcing a closing time outweigh the negatives. This matter is one that warrants serious debate and both sides need to be considered by the Minister.

If new trading hours are to be introduced, the proposed times are an improvement on the current position, with the exception of the proposed Sunday night closing time. As mentioned by several speakers, and I am sure the Minister is sick of hearing it at this point, implementing three closing times in a week does not seem sensible. If a tourist visited Ireland over a long weekend and went out for a week each evening he was here, he would experience three different closing times on a Saturday, Sunday and Monday. It seems sensible to bring Sunday closing time in line with the closing time that will apply to the first three nights of the week. I would prefer if the same closing time applied each night of the week. What is the difference between a Wednesday night and a Thursday night, particularly in tourist areas and during the summer months. Is there such a major difference between weekend nights and weekday nights, especially as many people now work on a Saturday?

I question the measure to deal with under age drinking. I agree with the Minister that this is an area that needs to be dealt with decisively. We must, however, be fair to publicans and must not be unreasonable by asking them to do the impossible. It is impossible to tell the difference between a girl aged 16 or a girl aged 18 or 19. This is particularly the case when fake identification is commonly available to young people at a cheap price.

Part 3 provides that the courts must impose a mandatory temporary closure order where a publican is convicted of serving alcohol to an under age person. I am very much in favour of this tough measure, as long as publicans have some way of accurately assessing the age of their customers, otherwise the measure is unfair.

In line with many of my Fine Gael colleagues, I favour the introduction of a national ID card scheme. Young people could be required to produce this card should they be called upon to do so by a publican or off-licence owner. This would make life easier for everybody, including the Garda and the publicans, and it would take guesswork out of the equation. However, I stress that publicans should not be left off the hook altogether. If they are deemed to have acted recklessly by serving under age drinkers, they should be penalised severely by the law. Young people should also be held accountable for their behaviour. A person who holds a fake ID should be under no illusions that it is a serious offence to do so.

With regard to the matter of transferring licences, I cannot support a Bill that proposes to allow a licence acquired for a small family run public house to be used for a large superpub. Cer tain vintners have approached me and expressed concern that small Irish traditional pubs may become a thing of the past due to the provision on this area in the legislation. Large superpub chains can buy up small pubs for their licences and use them to gain licences for premises in urban areas. I accept there are large urban areas, particularly in the capital, that are grossly under provided with public houses. I am in favour, in principle, of transferring licences, but only from one pub to another of similar size. Such a provision could be introduced by putting a cap on the size of a new pub relying on the licence of another small former pub in order to trade. If new superpubs need to be introduced to Dublin's city suburbs, special provision should be made for this, but we should not legislate nationally to address problems that are solely problems related to the capital. The small family pub with tradition and character is one of the features that makes Ireland Irish. We should preserve this aspect of Irish social life.

I welcome the introduction of the Bill. With some amendment, the Bill, when enacted, will have a positive impact on the lives of people who like to enjoy a drink and on the publicans who serve them.

The Minister has shown great patience having listened to this debate all day. I hope some of the contributions were not too repetitive. The Bill has had a long gestation period. Work on it began in 1996 under Deputy Flanagan when he chaired the committee concerned. Extensive investigations into this area were carried out at the time and I participated in some of the related discussions. There was a general election in 1997 and the committee resumed its work on the Bill under Deputy Flanagan. Having read the Minister's contribution, I note he recognises that much of the input into this legislation is the result of the deliberations of that committee. It provided a good deal of foresight and advice on this area.

Vintners organisations are effective at lobbying. As they have not lobbied us recently, they must be reasonably happy with the content and balance achieved in the Bill. I was surprised to receive a contribution this week outlining two major concerns of the Licensed Vintners' Association relating to under-age persons. Its contribution on the restaurants was rich. We believe that the proposal to allow holders of a wine retailer's on-licence to sell beer with a meal means it will only be a matter of time before such licensees are allowed to sell spirits. In this context Irish spirit producers will feel aggrieved and will press for a broadening of the Bill to allow their brands to be sold in restaurants. To sell an Irish coffee in such outlets would be illegal while to sell an imported beer would not. If that is the best they can do in regard to the two amendments, the Bill has a long way to go. I thought that act was a little petty because one of the better aspects of the Bill deals with restaurants and the fact that they could have a licence. I would like to think those restaurants would be able to make an Irish coffee.

I come from Foynes where each year Powers Irish Coffee Festival is held. It is hugely successful. Irish coffee originated in Foynes in the 1940s when the seaplanes were going into Foynes. Irish coffee is part of our tradition.

In regard to under age drinking, it is widely recognised we are going to have certain difficulties. Everybody appreciates that under age drinking is a cause of much concern. Some have spoken about identity cards. One of the contributors said it would take a long time before we would have a national identity card system. I am not sure, unless we go down that route, whether we can administer the scheme in such a way to ensure that only those over the age of 18 drink.

The pub is part of our culture and from the tourism point of view it is widely recognised. Nowadays people can go to the pub to socialise, to have food or sit and be entertained. For those of us who enjoy a pint and take it in moderation it is a chance to relax and unwind at the end of a day. They are the positive aspects.

We also know there is a negative side which involves the problem of alcoholism. I am reminded of a publican in a rural area who approached me and was concerned that the squad car was calling on a regular basis. He felt the Garda was being unduly harsh. Subsequent inquiries suggested he check out his clientele. These inquiries revealed that a dear woman at home was ringing the superintendent asking why her husband was not coming home. He was in the pub after hours. It is not always a case of the Garda being over-zealous. There may be concerns on the domestic front in regard to drinking and often in the process not enough food is put on the table. That is a sad spinoff. The members of Alcoholics Anonymous will not be mentioned much in this debate. I know people involved who have done tremendous work for those with alcohol problems. They make tremendous sacrifices at their own expense to help out colleagues who have fallen on hard times. Their role should be recognised.

Given the closing time of 1 a.m. there is no justification for after hours drinking in public houses. I hope people will be happy with that. However, there could be certain difficulties on Sunday nights during the summer. Some suggested a later opening in July and August, particularly in areas dependent on tourism. That is a valid point but I do not know whether it can be accommodated.

The requirement to provide food for late night functions is being abolished. For those of us who had a drink it was hard, as adults, being put out of a public house and to see the younger members of the family heading off to the disco where they had access to alcohol for an hour or two after we had left. This may be the right balance now where people can stay on a little longer.

I am pleased the Bill is so advanced and I look forward to its implementation during the summer.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to contribute to the debate. I broadly welcome the thrust of the Bill. I shall try to avoid repeating what my colleagues have said. I support the general thrust of the amendments in respect of the opening hours and the transfer of licences. There is concern among publicans about the super bars and their impact in certain areas if they develop. There should be some control in that area.

I wish to refer to the difficulties that arise because of the abuse of alcohol and the need to ensure this most potent influence on behaviour is fully understood, examined and controlled. I draw attention to a policy document published by a former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Noonan. The national alcohol policy which I have studied is an excellent document on how to proceed. It deals with educating the public, education through schools, research and introduces a policy of appropriate behaviour in the use and abuse of alcohol and treating those afflicted by alcoholism. It is incumbent on the Government to introduce in full the recommendations outlined in that document which was accepted by the previous Government.

The abuse of alcohol has a detrimental effect. It results in broken homes, broken marriages, children in difficulty, abuse of children, loss of business, ill-health and death. Alcohol plays a strong role in the lives of people who commit suicide. Reseach in the UK shows that an alcoholic is 20 times more likely to commit suicide than an ordinary member of the public. It is accepted in Ireland that 80% of those who commit suicide have taken alcohol at the time of their death. I am not saying they are alcoholics, though some are, but that 80% would have taken alcohol at the time of their death.

There is an urgent need for a study on alcoholism, depression, attempted suicide and suicide. There is a dearth of research in this area. Over a number of years I have tried to look up international research on alcoholism and its relationship to depression, psychiatric illness and suicide. It is difficult to get empirical research on that area but it is accepted by psychiatrists in general and those involved in that area that alcohol plays a key role in the final decision of those who are suicidal.

I wish to refer to the treatment services for alcoholism. I acknowledge the excellent work done at Cuan Mhuire, Bruree, County Limerick, where I have seen at first hand the impact of positive, compassionate efficient treatment. When this approach was introduced it was frowned on by many in the psychiatric profession but it has proven its worth. Treatment centres for alcohol related disorders will never provide an effective response on their own to alcohol dependency. Treatment services provided by the health boards down to community care level are essential but are only one aspect of a multi-faceted approach to alcohol related problems in our society. A treatment programme will be more effective if it is supported by national policies which help people to avoid damaging behaviour.

Treatment services within the psychiatric service have tended to deal with those who have alcohol dependence of long standing or who are particularly harmful to themselves or others. The appropriateness of the psychiatric hospital model of treatment for alcohol dependence came under scrutiny in Ireland in the 1970s. There is urgent need for comprehensive organisation of the treatment of alcohol dependence. We must recognise that the condition needs treatment. It needs the attention of the State. It is not just the treatment of deviants who are not able to control themselves. It is treatment of an addiction and a disease.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Wright.

I congratulate the Minister on bringing this legislation to the House. It was difficult legislation and his success is evidenced by the lack of outcry in the papers since the legislation was brought to public attention.

The Minister has listened to the debate among the public over the past few years and has had many meetings with representatives of the vintners. A balance has been struck between the demands on one side and what the Minister considered was right for our society. It is important to have a proper balance because drink is a curse when it is misused. We hear much about the effects of tobacco on smokers and of smoking on passive smokers. However, drink has more detrimental effects on society than tobacco ever had.

The extension of opening hours, as agreed, will not have a detrimental effect on society. Allowing more decision making to individuals will change people's attitude towards drinking and towards staying all night in public houses.

The provision of identity cards for young persons should be considered. One of the measures to combat under age drinking is the removal of the "reasonable grounds" defence in any proceeding against a licensee. Under current law it is a defence for a licensee to claim that he or she had reasonable grounds for believing that a person to whom he or she has sold intoxicating liquor was of age. These days young people who go into pubs in groups may look over the legal age but are under it. It is very difficult for publicans or their employees to be absolutely sure that everyone to whom they sell drink is over the legal age. There should be a national identity card system where, if the publican is in doubt about a person's age, he or she can require an individual to produce proof of his or her age. I feel very strongly about this because a publican could lose his licence or a person working in a pub could lose his or her job through no fault of their own. The Minister should look again at this area.

The wisdom of Solomon was needed to get agreement on closing hours. Over the past few years the Minister, through deft handling of the negotiations, got the agreement of all the parties involved. I congratulate him on that very fine work.

Clubs have been shouting in the past few days about not being treated the same as pubs. They were never treated the same as public houses. As far as I am aware, an individual who is not a member of a club must be signed in by a member. That applies to GAA clubs, golf clubs and so on. Unless a person who is not a member of such a club is brought in and signed in by a member, he or she is not entitled to be served drink. The Minister has changed that. A team, for example, can be signed in as a group. Other functions can also be carried on in the club. I congratulate the Minister for making it easier for clubs to provide their premises for social and other occasions. Clubs should realise that the Minister has treated them favourably. If clubs want to be public houses, they must apply for full public house licences, and they have not done that.

I come from a constituency where point-to-point races are held, mainly on Sundays. Publicans who have, over the years, provided services for those events felt that they would lose out if they could not transfer their licence to the racecourse. I am glad the Minister is providing for occasional licences for such events. I assure him that my constituents are very happy with that news.

On the question of hotel licences, in towns and seaside resorts people who had hotel licences had to have ten bedrooms and operate as a hotel. However, over the years the practice of operating these premises as public houses grew up and, although they did not meet the conditions, they were licensed year after year. I do not know what can be done to ensure that these people are not now driven out of business or forced to pay excessive prices for licences to continue in business. I would like the Minister to consider their predicament and come up with as fair a solution as possible.

There is also a fear among publicans that licences obtained in the country will be transferred to cities or towns and massive public houses erected on the basis of licences which applied only to small village pubs, allowing thousands of people to be catered for. Publicans feel that there should be a cap on the size of pubs which operate under licences that are transferred. I would like to hear the Minister's view on that matter.

I congratulate the Minister on a job very well done. The proof that he has done a good job is that there has been no public outcry. Any queries are just housekeeping ones. This is proof that the Minister has hit the right note.

As a member of the sub-committee of the Committee on Justice, Equality and Women's Rights dealing with this issue I com mend the Minister, as did my colleague, on the balance he has achieved. It is significant that the wide-ranging reforms he has introduced have satisfied the many diverse opinions on this Bill.

I welcome the debate as this is a matter on which reform is long overdue. To say the legislation that governs our liquor licensing laws is anachronistic is a considerable understatement. I commend the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, on having the vision to bring this matter into the 21st century and the determination to ensure that it is fair and equitable to all interests involved. It is also an understatement to say that the public house has traditionally served a very important role in Irish life. It is a centre for socialising for our citizens. Many Members of this House have, through the years, used public houses to meet constituents on a regular and convenient basis. Many committees and sports associations that do not have their own premises use the local pub to organise themselves and create a standard of life for people for which we are beginning to develop a deep appreciation.

In more recent times the proprietors of these establishments have sought to expand their roles and provide dining facilities and venues in which families can find entertainment and social intercourse. Public houses have become centres of attraction not only for our own people but for all those who wish to sample Irish hospitality. The Irish public house has become known abroad from Tokyo to Brussels and New York to San Francisco as synonymous with welcome, friendship, good company and superb Irish food and drink. As with all good things, however, it can be abused. The individual who seeks inebriation is not concerned with the social aspect of the public house. Those who seek to disturb the public peace and use the public house to acquire Dutch courage are not concerned with hospitality. Young people who seek alcohol to prove their maturity are not concerned with building a community or with family values.

In the past we concerned ourselves to a great extent with how licensed premises may be abused. In articulating this concern we all but ignored the demand for greater facilitation within licensed premises by those who are responsible in our society, families, community groups, tourists and others who seek to enhance the social fabric of Irish life. This legislation seeks to redress that imbalance and to grant that greater facilitation.

Ironically, although we have focused on the abuse of licensed premises by a minority in society, we have not used common sense in tackling the problem at its root. If we have had the common sense to know where these problems are we have not had the moral courage to grasp the nettle and tackle them. Instead we tackle the peripheral issues that surround the problem. This legislation seeks to correct that imbalance and leads us to inevitable action against the greatest abuse of our licensing laws, that of under-age drinking.

As I have said, our society and our visitors now seek greater facilitation in Irish public houses. In order to provide this the Minister has seen fit to address the issue on two fronts. First, he seeks to eliminate many of the medieval regulations that seek to unreasonably limit the number of licensed premises and, second, he proposes to broaden the activities in which licensed premises may engage.

In an effort to eliminate the effects of the abuse of alcohol, good thinking people in the past sought to limit the number of public houses. They argued that by removing the occasion of sin you would eliminate it. With the great value of hindsight we are now only too well aware that human nature is such that its determination to follow a course of action cannot be diverted if it is strong enough. Limiting the number of public houses thus becomes a ham-fisted and unworkable way of trying to curtail alcohol abuse.

In more recent times this out of date and ineffective thinking has had other ramifications. We have seen a greater movement of our people to the cities from the countryside and, in particular, to new suburban communities. Due to our archaic licensing laws many of these new communities are at a loss for the type of social interaction that characterised their former rural lives. Licences could not be had unless two country based licences were surrendered. The likelihood of the abandonment of these licences in rural communities is rare in diminishing communities where there is a growing need for socialisation. Simply put, the licensing laws, some of which extend back well over a century, do not fulfil the needs of urban or rural life in the 21st century.

I welcome the Minister's proposals to amend the licensing arrangements and to remove the barriers of entry to the trade. These include the abolition of the requirement to eliminate two licences in rural areas and the prohibition on granting a licence within a mile of an existing licensed premises. The Minister also proposes to eliminate the need to extinguish a licence within urban areas and prove an increase in population in these areas; a licence may be issued in substitution for an existing licence based on the fitness of the applicant, the fitness and convenience of the premises and the adequacy of the existing number of licensed premises in the vicinity; the development of a scheme for holders of restricted licences to convert them to full licences and the enhancement of the procedure where an interim transfer of a licence is sought based largely on the requirement that the person seeking it is a fit person.

In order to allow a greater use of public house facilities the Minister has ensured that his legislation will abolish the distinction between summer and winter trading and increase opening hours for licensed premises on Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays from 10.30 a.m. to 11.30 p.m. and on Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays from 10.30 a.m. to 12.30 a.m., all with 30 minutes drinking up time. As regards Sunday nights the Minister might comment on whether Sunday opening hours should be the same as Mondays to Wednesdays. This matter was raised in the Seanad. The abolition of the closing time on Sundays between 2.00 p.m. and 4.00 p.m. is welcomed as is the provision for both on and off licences to open for non-licensed business at 7.30 a.m. There is also provision for on or off-licenses engaged in non-licensed business to open for off-license sales at 8.00 a.m.

The Minister has also looked at the area of special exemptions and has been consistent in ensuring that arbitrary regulations from another time do not interfere with modern responsible social intercourse. To this end, he has provided that the Bill removes the restriction on the granting of a special exemption for any time on a Sunday, be it after midnight on a Saturday or after normal closing time on a Sunday evening; removes the obligation to provide a meal as part of the conditions for the grant of a special exemption; authorises the extension of special exemptions to 2.30 a.m., unless the court orders a shorter period; removes the requirement that a premises be a hotel or restaurant for the grant of a special exemption; allows drinking up time in the case of special exemptions and club authorisations and will require that a special exemption will not cause undue inconvenience to persons residing in the vicinity of the premises involved. I have received many representations on that issue. A licence may have been granted years ago but an area is now built up and residents have to deal with unruly individuals leaving the public house at night. I know the Minister has been asked by residents' associations and community groups to ensure this is part of his thinking and that if a public house is causing a nuisance in an area the courts will consider that aspect.

With the growth of the hospitality industry it is appropriate that the Minister reviews the laws which no longer apply to the way we reasonably wish to live our lives or which run contrary to the expectations of those who seek to holiday here. To this end, I welcome the provision to change the regulations applying to the restaurant and club trade. These include permission for restaurants with a wine licence to serve beer with a meal. I know from the many deputations I received and from meetings I was involved in with the Minister in relation to the restaurant industry that this will be well received. Some of those involved in Dublin have written to the Minister positively on the changes he has introduced in the restaurant industry. He is abolishing the requirement for a waiting area of a premises with a special restaurant licence to be no greater than 20% of the dining areas and the requirement for Bord Fáilte certification in respect of a special restaurant licence. He is providing that the extension of hours will apply to clubs under the Registration of Clubs Acts.

One of the issues raised with the Minister was that of spirits being served in restaurants. I ask him to review his thinking on this. One of our most famous drinks is Irish coffee. The Minister has gone a long way and I ask him to take another small step and allow this type of drink to be served. How much time is remaining?

Debate adjourned.
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