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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 10 Oct 2000

Vol. 523 No. 4

Ceisteanna – Questions. - Committee on Social Inclusion and Drugs.

Ruairí Quinn

Question:

6 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach the number of occasions on which the Cabinet Committee on Social Inclusion and Drugs has met in 2000; when the committee last met; and if he will make a statement on the progress of the committee to date. [20078/00]

Joe Higgins

Question:

7 Mr. Higgins (Dublin West) asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the number of times on which the Cabinet Committee on Social Inclusion and Drugs has met in 2000; and the plans there are for meetings in the future. [21141/00]

I propose to take Questions Nos. 6 and 7 together.

The Cabinet committee on social inclusion has met on seven occasions to date in 2000. The last meeting took place on 26 July. The next meeting is scheduled for 17 October. There are two further meetings planned for this year, 22 November and 13 December.

The Cabinet committee continues to give political direction to the Government's social inclusion policies, including the national drugs strategy. The meetings provide an opportunity to review trends, assess progress in the relevant strategies and programmes and resolve policy and organisational problems which may arise.

Was there a full attendance at the meeting of the Cabinet committee on 26 July? Who was present and what steps or decisions were taken?

Normally there is a full attendance at meetings, but I cannot give the Deputy—

Does the Minister of State have the information?

I do not have it with me, but I can get the attendance—

It is internal to the work of the Cabinet sub-committee.

Surely the decision on Cabinet confidentiality relates to what is discussed, not to who is present.

It relates to what is discussed.

I simply asked who was present.

(Dublin West): Will the Minister of State indicate if it is within the brief of the Cabinet sub-committee to review progress on the treatment of heroin addicts? Is he aware that in some communities there are still waiting lists of those who are addicted to heroin and who are seeking help? Does he agree this is inexcusable in view of the resources available to the Government and the damage caused to addicts and to the community? Some addicts engage in crime to feed their habit.

Is the Minister of State aware that the knowledge among users in communities that there are waiting lists discourages them from seeking treatment as they feel they will not be accommodated and that, therefore, the waiting lists have a further knock-on effect in allowing people who are chaotic to remain in the community without seeking help? Does he agree that where there is a space of between four and six weeks between the first request for treatment by users and being admitted to programmes it is far too long, that the life of an addict is chaotic and that when they present for treatment it is vital it should be given immediately?

The national drugs strategy and anything pertaining to drugs is considered by the Cabinet sub-committee. I agree with Deputy Higgins that the idea of a waiting list sends out a bad message to people who are abusing drugs. There has been an increase in the number of people in treatment from 1,300 to approximately 5,000. We are trying to move them on through rehabilitation and counselling. FÁS has ring-fenced approximately 1,000 places for people to get back into the workplace. We must try to devise a working system that allows people presenting themselves to get treatment. We are trying to achieve that. I consult with the health boards practically every week or, if not, every two weeks to ascertain what is happening on waiting lists.

What is the Minister of State doing about it?

We are doing a lot about it.

It appears to be ineffective.

It is not ineffective.

It is ineffective if people cannot get on waiting lists.

I must remind the House that these questions are not about the Government's strategy, they are about meetings of the Cabinet sub-committee.

I am responding to the Minister of State's speech.

A new bus will come on stream over the next couple of weeks and that will help matters, but there are objections in some communities to having methadone maintenance clinics up and running. That is adding to the problem.

It is for the Minister of State to deal with that.

Under the new national drugs strategy I would like to ensure that if somebody presents they get treatment and that a positive message is sent to the community that people who want treatment for drugs can get it if they wish.

What is the state of the waiting lists? How many people in the Dublin area are on waiting lists for methadone treatment?

At present approximately 5,000 people are in treatment while approximately 400 people are waiting for treatment.

(Dublin West): Will the Minister of State detail the plans being put into effect to ensure there is no waiting list and to include for treatment those not yet on the waiting list and who are perhaps reluctant to apply for treatment because of it? Does the Minister of State agree there is a major problem with the lack of rehabilitation and after care programmes by the health boards? Is he aware that in Dublin a programme has been drawn up but has not been put in place?

Will he agree that rehabilitation and after care are vital in the recovery of heroin users and in the prevention of relapse? It is difficult to stay off heroin once addicted. Will he agree there is a great need for more counsellors? What plans are in place to either train or engage more counsellors for rehabilitation and after care? Will he agree that insufficient resources are put into family support for families which have heroin users in their midst? The trauma caused to families with addiction problems is well known. Addiction problems arise in some families due to dysfunction or other problems.

The Deputy is making a statement.

(Dublin West): Will the Minister of State outline his plans to put resources and a rehabilitation programme in place without delay?

The review of the national drugs strategy covers many of the areas to which the Deputy has referred. We have invited people in, we have had public fora and almost 200 written submissions have been received. One area in which a problem was identified was rehabilitation. Once people presented they stayed on methadone but they need to be moved on. This is an area that needs to be ring-fenced. FÁS has ring-fenced 1,000 places. We are looking at a variety of different measures that can be taken. For example, during the summer we launched the labour inclusion programme which provides training for people in areas in which they have a interest. Following proper training they can move into the workplace where they will have a mentor within the company to move them along. They will also have counselling. It is difficult for people who are off drugs to stay off them and I agree with the Deputy that this is a difficulty within the system.

Family support is a weak area. Yesterday I launched a report in Tallaght on family support for children of drug addicts. They came up with some good proposals on how to help children and people who are misusing drugs to ensure their children are protected. I hope to see many of these measures will be put in place in the new national drugs strategy. The national drugs strategy has come from a low base. Under the previous Government it was started under the then Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, when there were practically no services in that area. The services have been increased and can be further increased.

I remind the House that detailed questions on strategy are not in order on these questions.

In view of the central role of educational disadvantage in the area of social exclusion and particularly drug abuse, has the Cabinet sub-committee discussed the request from local drugs task forces for a representative of the Department of Education and Science to sit on each task force and the Minister's subsequent refusal to provide such a person?

Matters discussed by the sub-committee cannot be questioned.

I am merely asking the Minister of State for his view on the refusal by the Minister for Education and Science to provide such a person in view of the strong request from all the task forces. I further ask the Minister of State if he has discussed at the Cabinet sub-committee the question of the establishment of the committee on educational disadvantage which has been promised for the past two years by the Government? Will he ensure this receives urgent attention?

Matters discussed at the Cabinet sub-committee may not be raised.

I will not dwell on what was discussed—

The Minister of State can give his own opinion.

—but certainly there is a problem with the Department of Education and Sci ence. Local drug task forces are of the view that what is relevant in their areas is not being dealt with by the Department of Education and Science because it is such a centralised Department. There are some proposals emanating from the Department to try to address the problem raised by the Deputy. The matter has been brought to my attention and many of those involved in the area have discussed it with me. We are trying to address the problem and I look forward to the proposals they will announce shortly.

Given that the heroin problem in Dublin shows no sign of abating and that heroin is beginning to show up in areas outside Dublin, has the Minister of State conveyed to the Garda authorities the need to concentrate Garda anti-drug resources on heroin? Is this his own approach and is he satisfied that the Garda is responding to it? In relation to the youth facilities fund, allocations have been made which are inadequate in some instances to allow major projects, such as in the Cabra community complex in John Paul Park, to proceed. Can he say when the additional funding that is required to allow such major and badly needed projects to get under way will be provided to the project organisers?

Has the Minister of State received a submission on the need for a limited heroin prescription programme and, if so, what is his policy on—

Questions of detail are not appropriate to these questions. They would be more appropriate as separate questions.

I believe the Minister of State is anxious to respond to some of these issues. They are important and, unfortunately, we are restricted in the questions we can table on the number of meetings the sub-committee holds in a year. That is not very sensible. There should be a mechanism for raising important issues with the Minister of State but this is our only opportunity to do so.

The answer to the Deputy's first question is a definite yes. I have spoken to the Garda about the importance of concentrating on the problem of heroin. The damage heroin does to the individuals, their families and communities is enormous—

The seizures do not reflect that.

I agree that the seizures should be increased. Within the review of the national drugs strategy, for example, Customs and Excise is introducing new passive dogs which are successful in other countries. If I remember correctly, this was announced in the newspapers about three weeks ago. They are successful in many countries and the general travelling public accept them. They are not as aggressive as the normal dogs used to detect drugs. That is one development.

We have raised the problem of seizures. I would like to see more of them but the gardaí argue that a pound of heroin is easy to hide while other drugs are far bulkier and easier to find. However, I take the Deputy's point. I will continue to pressurise them, as I have been doing. The problems heroin causes for individuals and communities are enormous.

I presume the Minister of State was at the Cabinet sub-committee in July. He has not yet attended so many that he would have already forgotten who was present. Will he please tell the House who was present? Does he not agree that the Cabinet sub-committee meetings appear to be entirely pro forma and that the urgency that is required to have somebody to drive these programmes politically does not exist?

With regard to the reply to Deputy Quinn about the extent of the problem, is it not the case that there are more than 13,000 addicts according to the best estimates and, according to the Minister of State's figures, approximately 5,000 in treatment? Is this not a matter of life and death? Are there not people dying because they cannot get places on treatment programmes? The Minister of State will be aware that a young mother of two children in my constituency died about three weeks ago because she could not get a place on a treatment programme. Is it not the case that this is not unusual? Is there not a need, therefore, for somebody to demonstrate more urgency politically about putting in place improvements in the treatment infrastructure in a situation where the heroin abuse problem in this city is now worse than it was when the task forces were first put in place in 1997?

I do not agree with the Deputy's last suggestion. Given the feedback, I do not believe the heroin problem—

We approved the development plan last night in relation to the task force. The figures—

The Deputy must allow the Minister of State to answer the question. The Minister of State is in possession.

Whenever I talk to local groups supported by local drugs task forces, I ask them what is the up to date position. Certainly the jury is out on whether the problem is worse. Some say it is worse, while others say it is not so bad. As the Deputy knows, 13,000 is an estimated figure and no one knows how many addicts there are. One professional told me recently that he reckons the figure is approximately 9,500. I have asked for the figures to be correlated. It is very difficult to determine the exact figure because of the diffi culties involved in identifying people who abuse heroin.

The local drugs task forces have had a positive effect in local areas and the position has stabilised. I could be wrong but I am certainly not getting the feedback from local communities that the problem is getting worse. Wherever I go I ask people to tell me honestly how they feel about the issue. As the Deputy said, this is a matter of life and death. Young and old people, their families and communities are being destroyed because of the drugs problem. I speak to the health board on a regular basis regarding waiting lists and people write to me and ring me from around the city trying to get their sons or daughters into treatment. We do everything we possibly can to facilitate people. The health board is trying to open four or five more treatment centres. Given the new buses that are coming on stream, there should be a service that, I hope, will meet existing demand. If the demand is not met, the health board will have to open more centres. There are currently approximately 50 centres throughout the city.

I call Deputy Stagg. Time is running out for the Taoiseach's questions and a number of Deputies are offering.

Is the Minister of State aware that the development plans being put in place for the task forces show they have had a positive effect? No one is denying that. I am asking the Minister of State is it not the case that the heroin abuse problem is worse and that the level of first time users is worse? I am not questioning his commitment but I am questioning whether he is driving the programmes in the manner that he ought to drive them, if we are to cope with this problem.

There is just five minutes left. The Deputy should be fair to his colleague because a number of Deputies wish to ask questions. I have called Deputy Stagg.

I will sit down if the Ceann Comhairle is asking me to do so. I have asked the Minister of State to deal with this critical question and he has for the second time avoided telling us who was at the Cabinet sub-committee. It is a legitimate question and I am entitled to ask who was there. What is the secret? It is extraordinary that the Minister of State cannot recall this.

(Interruptions).

I will get the details for the Deputy. I do not want to say someone was not there if he was there. There were many people there. There was almost a full attendance if I recall correctly.

The Minister of State's memory worries me.

Do the figures the Minister of State gave include Celbridge, County Kildare, where it is estimated 100 people are addicted to heroin? Will he agree that because there is no task force in Celbridge, there is no treatment centre to which addicts can go? Will he further accept that the only alternative for these addicts between applying for treatment, which a number of them have done, and receiving treatment is to stay on heroin, steal and act illegally to stop themselves dying?

What is the waiting period between application for methadone treatment and assessment for suitability and getting on a treatment programme?

The Deputy was in touch with my office and we contacted the health authority to find out—

One person in Newbridge looks after all Kildare.

We have asked the health board to report on what is happening there—

Nothing.

—and we will open a clinic in the area if it is needed. I hope it will receive support from all political parties because there is a difficulty.

A clinic is badly needed. The Minister of State will have my full support.

Will the Minister of State be able to sway the Minister for Finance to come on board?

It depends on where one goes. In certain parts of the Eastern Regional Health Authority area the waiting lists are short while in other parts it can take a long time. That is the problem and we are trying to open new centres so that there is no waiting list. That is what we are trying to implement and there is an urgency about it. I speak to the authority on a regular basis to try to get it to open such clinics. I hope, a number will open shortly and the new bus—

I am told the shortest waiting period is four months while the longest is one year. People are dying while they are waiting.

I will allow the Deputy to come back in if time permits. I call Deputy Allen.

Did the Minister of State obtain figures for the Cork area during his tour around the country? Is there a heroin problem there and, if so, what steps is he taking in conjunction with the Southern Health Board to deal with the problem?

Again these are matters of detail that are not directly relevant to the two questions which have been tabled.

Deputy Stagg asked a similar question.

I am just pointing out that these are not—

On a point of order, why is that ruling being made? When the task forces were set up a decision was taken in this House that the responsible Minister would answer questions in this slot about any matter relating to the drugs strategy.

If questions are tabled.

Questions have been tabled.

The supplementary questions which have been asked go far beyond the detail requested in the two questions before the House. There is another question on the Order Paper about this matter.

The progress of the committee encompasses everything. The committee has overall responsibility for driving this—

A question has been tabled about the strategy.

Question No. 6 requests a statement on progress to date.

A question has been tabled about that. I call Deputy McManus.

Will the Minister of State answer my question? A similar question was asked in regard to Celbridge and an answer was provided.

An answer was not provided.

There was an attempt to provide an answer.

I made a similar point in regard to that question.

I can get the Deputy a more detailed answer. The Garda told us there was not a heroin problem on the ground that it knew of and when heroin moves into an area it is easy to identify. We heard reports of heroin in the area but there is no concrete proof. We heard there was heroin in Athlone and Limerick and we sought reports which were inconclusive. In cities such as Glasgow where the heroin problem affected the inner city and housing estates in the most excluded areas, there was a strong response from the state agencies and local communities. The problem was addressed but it migrated to other areas.

We must be ahead of the game and I would hate if dealers found it was easier and more lucrative to move to other parts of Ireland. There are proposals on the table to try to address that in the new drugs strategy. We must be very mindful of that because it happened in Scotland.

What progress is being made in regard to drug treatments other than methadone, particularly the form of drug therapy more appropriate for newer and younger users? Is the Minister of State developing that form of treatment or is there a dependence solely on methadone?

(Dublin West): Does the Minister of State agree that to enable the Cabinet Sub-committee on Social Inclusion to pursue an effective strategy, it needs accurate information on the extent of heroin addiction in Ireland? It is a major problem if that information is not available – the Minister of State said nobody really knows the position. Does the Minister of State agree this arises because of the nature of the problem, which is that it involves people who are outside mainstream society?

Young people who are vulnerable to heroin addiction will not be driven home from All-Ireland finals in ministerial Mercs. Therefore, does the Minister of State agree it is crucial that there is a huge degree of flexibility in assessing the extent of the problem and in engaging with those who are at risk? In that regard, does the Minister of State agree there is a need—

I ask the Deputy to be brief as the time available has almost expired.

(Dublin West): Does the Minister of State agree there is a great need for outreach workers who will go onto the streets, into parks and into the areas where a subculture exists and where heroin abuse is a problem? These workers would provide advice, assistance and preventative mechanisms and assess the problems.

I ask the Deputy to conclude. Otherwise, there will not be time for the Minister of State to reply.

Regarding Deputy McManus's query, we are considering drugs such as Naltrexone. There has been positive feedback in countries such as Portugal and Spain where young addicts have received it. The family is included in the treatment process. A family member gives the Naltrexone in the morning and if the young person does not take it, alarm bells immediately begin to ring. Naltrexone is an inhibitor, which means that if a person takes heroin or any other drug, it will have no effect. We are considering international best practice, but one of the disappointing aspects is that very few answers are available on the international scene with regard to tackling the problem. There are no wonder drugs, although Naltrexone appears to have had positive results internationally.

Regarding Deputy Higgins's point, the national advisory committee on drugs was established to address the problem he mentioned in relation to accuracy of information about what is happening on the ground. The community and voluntary sec- tor demanded such a body for many years. It is up and running and has held its first meeting. It will be a welcome addition in the fight against drugs. It will be in a position to get good and accurate information. It has a good budget and it appears happy to deal with the challenge it has been given.

Many of the local drugs task forces have already submitted plans for outreach workers. Such workers are operational on the ground. There is a need to get out there and talk to young people in the community who are not presenting for treatment to ensure they do not develop serious drug problems. There is a need to develop relationships with them. A recent report, Choosers or Losers, was carried out by Paula Mayock in an inner city community. She spent a year working on the report and the information she got because young people trusted and responded to her was enormously helpful. She got much good information on young people's attitudes to drugs. I agree with the Deputy that outreach workers are a most important element.

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