Vol. 523 No. 4
9 Mrs. B. Moynihan-Cronin asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the current position regarding the proposed national conference centre in the light of the decision of An Bord Pleanála to refuse planning permission for the full Spencer Dock project; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21102/00]
11 Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation the current situation in relation to the development of a national conference centre. [21191/00]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 9 and 11 together.
As the Deputies are aware, the Operational Programme for Tourism 1994-1999 included a provision towards the construction of a conference centre in Dublin capable of handling up to 2,000 delegates. In November 1998 the European Commission gave its approval in principle for a grant of 33 million ECU or £26 million, subject to a number of conditions, including the compatibility of any preferential tax regimes for the project with State aids rules. Subsequently, having secured Commission confirmation on permissible time limits for the grant draw down, contract documentation was agreed and signed by Bord Fáilte and the developer, Spencer Dock Consortium Limited, by the end of December last year.
Planning permission for the development, issued by Dublin Corporation in August 1999, was appealed to An Bord Pleanála. Last July, An Bord Pleanála issued its decision granting planning permission for the national conference centre element of the overall development but not for the bulk of the surrounding development. Since then, the developers have been considering their options in light of this planning decision. Options, of which I have been made aware, would require the provision of substantial additional public funding over and above the terms of the original grant offer from Bord Fáilte.
Following consultations with Bord Fáilte and advice from the Attorney General, I am precluded from introducing any amendments to the public procurement process through which the Spencer Dock proposal emerged and the grant offer of £26 million was made. I have now informed the developers accordingly and asked them to continue to consider with Bord Fáilte how to proceed within the context of the terms and conditions of the existing grant offer.
What contact has the Minister had with the developers of the Spencer Dock development and what was the outcome of such contact? The Minister said there is a request for more funding. How much more funding is being requested? Has the Minister received a copy of the contract between the developers and CIE from the Minister for Public Enterprise and what was included in that document? How much money has been expended to date on the development?
I do not have any contact with the developers. I met them previously but my contacts to date have been with Bord Fáilte. The Deputy asked how much was sought by the developers to continue with the development. However, that is sensitive information. This matter is not yet at an end. A contract has been signed between Bord Fáilte and the developers. It is a complex legal agreement and it involves a public procurement process and State aids. I am sorry it involves such legal complexities. I am precluded from stating how much more the developers are seeking. They are seeking further funding from the Exchequer. The Attorney General's advice is that this is a complex legal issue involving public procurement and State aids.
The developers need to conclude their business with Bord Fáilte. I assure the Deputy the Government remains fully committed to a national conference centre. This city, country and hoteliers require such a centre if we want to continue to meet the demands of people coming to this country. We will continue to give that commitment.
I have looked at the contract with CIE, which is quite complex, but it would appear that under the conditions of the contract the developers have an agreement with CIE for the site in the docklands area.
How much Exchequer money has been allocated to the national conference centre?
A sum of £26 million in grant aid has been allocated, which is Exchequer money. The Deputy will recall that the grant aid was originally EU funding but so as not to lose the EU funding, the Government made a decision to transfer the £26 million, which we were given permission to do by the EU. To date, no money has been given. The grant aid is £26 million in Exchequer funding.
The Minister swaggered into this House some years ago and ridiculed Deputies on this side when we suggested there might be problems about the conference centre which he backed so wholeheartedly. He took the bull in a china shop approach and scrapped the RDS project.
The Deputy is making a statement. A question, please.
Will the Minister agree that this situation is a total fiasco, that he has lost his way and this project has lost its way? It was included in a Fianna Fáil manifesto. Is the Minister as confident now as he was even six months ago that this project will go ahead? The Minister gave us lip service about the need for the country to have a conference centre. What is the alternative now in relation to this fiasco that he led us into?
I can assure the Deputy that the Government remains totally committed to the conference centre. I have already stated that it is a complex legal issue as to where it stands but we will continue to pursue it. I would encourage the developers to continue to work with Bord Fáilte to iron out the contract aspects, which are complex, but I will not have a plan B until the developers and Bord Fáilte get together and work out the contract already signed between them.
Will the Minister assure the House that the country will have a national conference centre? Are we in danger of losing the EU element of that funding? How much time do the developers have to finally decide whether to go ahead in Spencer Dock or whether we need a plan B? Some time ago I asked the Minister if he had a plan B and he told me he did not. Will he agree it is now time to consider plan B?
We cannot have any plan Bs when the original plan is ongoing.
Face up to reality.
As I have already stated, it remains for the developers and Bord Fáilte to come together and work out the contract agreement they have in place. I can do nothing until they come together and make a decision one way or the other. There is no Exchequer funding. No money has been lost because this was an EU grant which the Government managed to persuade the EU to give to this development. The grant has not been lost. The funding was already transferred and this grant aid, which is currently in place, is Exchequer money. No Exchequer money has been forthcoming for anything in this area to date.
Will the Minister agree that this was a key element in the Government's tourism policy paper?
Yes.
We are now almost four years into the lifetime of this Government. There is no sign of a conference centre and it appears we are not going to have a conference centre. When will the vital meetings, as the Minister termed them, take place between Bord Fáilte and the company involved? Is the Minister talking about a fall-back because we will not have a conference centre in the foreseeable future? It is a total fiasco.
As I have already said, the Government is fully committed to it.
Empty words.
I want to be clear. The Deputy must understand that a contract has been drawn up—
The Minister supported the RDS one.
—and signed by both sides.
It would have been built by now.
Deputy Allen, allow the Minister to reply.
I can do nothing to bring forward plans. A contract cannot be varied that already has been signed by the developers and Bord Fáilte. Until they come to some decision regarding that contract—
One in the hand is better than two in the bush.
—neither I nor the Government can do anything about it.
The Minister scrapped it and now we have lost it.
We remain totally committed to the development of a national conference centre.
Why can the Minister not do something about it? Why can he, as Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation not take a hands-on approach to this matter to ensure that we will have a national conference centre? He is the Minister and the Exchequer is providing funding. He should have some part to play in it.
I can imagine what it would be like if I was seen wining and dining with the developers of a major conference centre—
Nobody is asking the Minister to wine and dine.
We are not talking about the Minister wining and dining.
If one has contact with major developers, I can imagine what the Deputy would be saying. A contract has been signed between two bodies to go ahead with the development of the conference centre. Unfortunately, all the developers' needs were not allowed by An Bord Pleanála and consequently they said that they were unable to go ahead with the project unless the Government provided extra Exchequer funding. I have been informed by the Attorney General that in view of the legal complexity of the situation, the Government cannot give further Exchequer funding because a contract has been signed. Other people were in this competition and it could be seen as the Government giving extra funding to this development which would be totally unfair to the other competitors in this area. The developers have not said that they are no longer interested in this project. They have not abandoned it but I can do nothing until the developers and Bord Fáilte agree one way or the other with regard to their contract.
Deputies Allen and Breeda Moynihan-Cronin rose.
We must proceed to the next question. The Deputies must be very brief.
Having scrapped the RDS project, will the Minister now take a hands-on approach to this vital project? He cannot act like Pontius Pilate and say the matter is between Bord Fáilte and Treasury Holdings. The Minister has a responsibility. He lost the conference centre to this country. He has lost the EU funding.
Questions, please.
The Minister has a responsibility to take a hands-on approach and he should do so.
I ask Deputy Moynihan-Cronin to be very brief.
I do not want the Minister to wine and dine people but to ensure that this country has a conference centre. This matter could go on for ten or 11 years. How long is the Minister prepared to let these discussions go on?
I call the Minister for a very brief final reply.
I am encouraged that the discussions will come to a head as soon as possible but I understand they have to make the decision before the end of the year. That is in the legal document. With regard to the conference centre having been lost, I remind the Deputy that if we had not done what we did at that time, we would have lost the £26 million because cases have been taken to the EU Commission and the EU Commission was about to throw out the conference centre proposal.
If the Minister had let the RDS project go ahead, it would be built by now.
