Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 Nov 2000

Vol. 526 No. 2

Order of Business.

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 23, motion re Referral to Joint Committee of the Report on Clinical Vaccine Trials; No. 47, Patents (Amendment) Bill, 1999 – Second Stage (resumed); No. 1, Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) (No. 2) Bill, 2000 [Seanad] – Second Stage; No. 48, Statements on the Irish Language in the 21st Century – Ráitis maidir leis an nGaeilge san 21ú hAois – to be taken not later than immediately following the announcement of Matters on the Adjournment under Standing Order 21 and the order shall not resume thereafter.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that (1) No. 23 shall be decided without debate; and (2) the proceedings on No. 48, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 4.45 p.m. and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the statements of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (ii) the statement of each other Member called upon shall not exceed five minutes; and (iii) Members may share time.

There are two proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 23 agreed?

No, Sir.

A substantive amendment has been tabled by the Fine Gael Party to this motion. There is a clear divergence in that we believe a committee of the House should investigate this issue and that sending it to the Laffoy commission is a way of long-fingering it. The committee should be empowered to investigate it.

If the Government proceeds in the way it suggests, the committee will not be able to do anything because the Government has foreclosed any activity the committee may undertake on this matter which is of concern to public representatives and the people they represent. For these reasons, we should be allowed to make these points, however briefly, in a debate. Perhaps the Taoiseach would agree to a debate of approximately 20 minutes or 30 minutes on this subject.

There are two points of concern. The report should go to the committee. I am disappointed that the Government has not accepted the excellent legal advice from the Labour Party. It might have been considered belt and braces, but I have seldom seen lawyers reject an additional belt where one is offered in good faith. The advice I received from my Whip is to the effect that the Government do not think it is necessary.

Many cases have subsequently failed in another court because adequate protection was not taken when offered in a constructive way. However, that is the prerogative of the Government. Despite the reasons that the Government has decided not to accept it, we believe there is an unnecessary risk and, therefore, the motion in its current form is unacceptable. I support the proposal put forward by the Fine Gael Party that there should also be a debate in the House.

Reports are usually referred to a committee without any debate in the House. However, if the House feels a short debate during the morning of approximately 20 minutes is desirable, I will not object to it.

I thank the Labour Party for raising the issues. I undertook to consider them and there are two points that may resolve the matter. I have been advised by the Attorney General that the definition of abuse in the Inquiry into Child Abuse Act, 2000, includes any wilful infliction of physical injury or failure to prevent such injury to a child and any failure to care for a child or act or omission towards a child which has serious adverse effects on the child's behaviour or welfare.

In so far as clinical trials are alleged to have been conducted without the appropriate consent and in so far as these trials are alleged to have included the use of injections and intra-nasal administration of drugs, clearly an issue arises as to whether any such trial amounts in law to an assault or unlawful invasion of the physical integrity of the children involved.

Likewise, the consequences of participating in any such trials are matters relating to the welfare of the children. All these issues fall within the scope of the commission as expressed in section 1 of the Act. The suggestion, helpfully made by Deputy McManus, was that acts must be proved to amount to abuse and to have affected the welfare of the child before the commission can inquire into them and therefore, it does not stand. The wording of the Act, in particular section 4(1) (v) makes it clear that one of the functions of the commission is to establish whether acts capable of amounting to abuse actually occurred or whether it is a matter of fact such acts amount to abuse rather than what effect they had on any children concerned. On the second point made by Deputy Quinn, that we must make sure we tie this down and do not run into difficulties, I asked the Attorney General to consult the Laffoy commission to make sure that we know about all matters. The Laffoy commission proposes to consider the issues raised by the report as a separate heading within its inquiry. They will examine what they need separately within the inquiry. The commission will consider whether any order under section 4(4) is necessary or appropriate to assist the commission in this respect. They will examine the report and if there is any aspect they believe under section 4(4) that they need to tie down tighter, they will come back to us. I assure the House that the Government's intention is to fully consult the commission on that issue as envisaged by the Act and to make that necessary order which is provided for in the Act under section 4(4). If any such order is made, it will need the approval of the House. I hope that deals with the point.

Could I clarify with the Taoiseach whether he is making an amended proposal?

Deputy Bruton suggested – and Deputy Quinn agreed – that we would have a 20 minute debate. The Government Whip has told me that we could do that at 12.30 p.m. today. My amendment is that we have a 20 minute debate between 12.30 p.m. and 12.50 p.m. today.

That is reasonable and the fact that the Taoiseach has read so much into the record will be of use to Members participating in the debate, who will be able to respond at that time in the debate to the points made by the Taoiseach.

Is it agreed that the Whips will arrange the allocation of speaking times? Agreed.

We accept that proposed alteration to the Order of Business. I thank the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach should spell out the proposal.

I propose as an amendment to the Order of Business as read at 10.30 a.m. that there will be a 20 minute debate on the clinical trials report and the submission to the committee and that the debate be between 12.30 p.m. and 12.50 p.m. today.

Is that proposal agreed? Agreed. On the second proposal on the Order of Business – is the proposal for dealing with No. 48 agreed to?

(Dublin West): Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur ar an Taoiseach maidir le uimhir 48, Ráitis maidir leis an nGaeilge san 21ú hAois. An bhfuil aon pholasaí foilsithe ag an Rialtas maidir leis an cheist seo nó le ceart lucht labhartha na Gaeilge? Cad chuige an díospóireacht tráthnóna? An bhfuil sé ar intinn ag an Taoiseach agus ag an Rialtas tuairisc nó páipéar éigin a chur os comhair na Dála mar gheall ar na fadhbanna móra atá ag muintir na Gaeltachta maidir leis an teanga a chaomhnú agus mar gheall ar an deacracht atá—

The Deputy can raise this matter during the course of the debate. All we are deciding now is—

(Dublin West): I am just asking the Taoiseach with regard to the statements on the Irish language in the 21st century if there is a definite policy or proposals before us for this afternoon's debate about the rights of Irish speakers and the preservation of the language in the 21st century. To have a debate without proposals from the Government is not as useful as it could be.

Ba mhaith liom tacú leis an Teachta Higgins. Bheadh sé i bhfad níos úsáidí dúinne a bhfuil ar intinn againn páirt a ghlacadh sna ráitis seo dá mbeadh tuarascáil nó ráiteas foilsithe ag an Rialtas nó fiú rún síos acu go bhféadfaimis a phlé. Muna ndéanfar sin beidh sé ró-theibí—

Order, please.

Corr uair a bhíonn seans againn cúrsaí na Gaeilge nó na Gaeltachta a phlé sa Teach seo agus ba chóir go ndéanfaí i gceart é. Sin an fáth go bhfuil mé ag tacú leis.

Ar an ábhar céanna, an bhfuil aon cháipéis sa leabharlann gur féidir leis na Teachtaí a léamh roimh ré a thabharfadh eolas dóibh faoi sheasamh an Rialtais ar an cheist seo. Níl aon eolas agamsa go fóill maidir leis an díospóireacht.

Will the Taoiseach confirm whether the Minister for Education and Science has decided to pay teachers in respect of supervision of lunchtime breaks?

Deputy, that is not relevant. A proposal for dealing with No. 48 is before the House. It has nothing to do with the Deputy's question.

Would the Taoiseach tell the House whether the Minister for Education and Science has met the ASTI in the past 24 hours?

That is completely out of order on this question.

The Minister has shown no interest—

(Interruptions.)

I must put the question. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 48 agreed to? Agreed.

When the Dáil resumes next Tuesday, it will be the day after the entire DART system will have closed down leaving 80,000 Dubliners who use that means of transport stranded and the day before the suburban and national rail system is to close down, leaving 50,000 daily users of that transport system stranded. In the past 24 hours, what has the Taoiseach done about this situation? Has he any sense that he is in charge of transport or of Government as far as this vital service is concerned? Has the Taoiseach himself done anything about this matter in the past 24 hours?

On the same matter, a Cheann Comhairle, you have ruled out of order, as is your prerogative, a request from me on Standing Order 31 and the House will be riveted in discussing the future of the Irish language in the 21st century this afternoon. Since the Taoiseach indicated yesterday that industrial relations machinery is available to the State and that machinery does not appear to be adequately working in respect of either the teachers, the drivers in CIE and elsewhere, perhaps he might go looking for the person in his Cabinet who is responsible for the industrial relations machinery, the Scarlet Pimpernel of Dáil Éireann, the Tánaiste, who refuses to come in here until she skulks in for a vote. Perhaps we might receive some explanation from the person charged with Cabinet responsibility for the operation of industrial relations as to why there has been a breakdown in State run services where recommendations from the Labour Relations Commission or the Labour Court are not being accepted by one section of the social partners. It is time the Tánaiste was in the House speaking on the matters for which she is responsible.

I have had several discussions with the Minister for Public Enterprise over the past 24 hours. The Minister and senior officials of her Department met the management of Iarnród Éireann, yesterday, 15 November. A meeting is taking place at present between the Minister and senior officials of the Department with the Congress of Trade Unions, SIPTU and the NBRU representatives and a meeting is arranged with IBEC for this afternoon. The Minister and the Government are doing all they can to resolve the range of disputes covered under CIE.

Does the Taoiseach have any personal sense of how appalling the public transport system is in Dublin? Even when the DART is working – and I know the Taoiseach is familiar with Clontarf DART station because he lives not too far from it – people who want to take the DART in the morning at Clontarf must take the train out to Raheny because it is so full when it arrives in Clontarf they cannot get on. They must go out to Raheny to get on the train to come in past Clontarf into Dublin. That is a system that would have been described as squalid if it had occurred in the Indian sub-continent in the 19th century but it is not acceptable in Ireland in the 21st century. The Taoiseach is presiding over these crowded trains where there will have to be pushers to push people on the trains soon because there is no room on them. Everything is slowing down to a snail's pace, the Taoiseach is in charge and he is not able to do the job.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Roche wants to answer that.

I take it from the Taoiseach's refusal to reply—

Is the Taoiseach taking any responsibility? These services are not private; they are owned by the Government. The Taoiseach cannot blame someone else for the fact that they are redundant. What is he doing about it?

Like Nero, he fiddled while Rome burned.

The Taoiseach responded to the questions posed by the Leader of Fine Gael. I asked him questions on the apparent breakdown, to which he referred yesterday, of the industrial relations machinery, the action, if any, he would take on that and the whereabouts of the Tánaiste.

As I stated yesterday, because a number of decisions have been turned down by both the Labour Court and the Labour Relations Commission the Minister has intervened directly with all the parties to try to find a successful conclusion to these issues. That is the best way to do so. Crying wolf will not solve matters. They will be solved only through dedicated negotiations. The Tánaiste, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and every other member of the Government will do their utmost to try to resolve these issues.

Has the Government formed a view on the proposals by Commissioner Bolkestein, the European Commissioner with responsibility for competition, for the full liberalisation of the postal services throughout the EU which would have a devastating effect on rural Ireland and the network of post offices? When will item 15 on the legislative paper for the Government, the Postal (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, be published? It is due to be published this term. Will it set out the Government's position on this threat to rural post offices?

It will be published in this session.

In light of the grave problems experienced by many people during the recent flooding where the Civil Defence, while it did its best, was not up to the task in some areas, will the Taoiseach explain why the Civil Defence Bill, which it was promised in November 1999 would be introduced early in this year, has not yet been introduced? Is the Civil Defence and the emergency relief it provides not a priority with this Government? Does that account for the delay?

This Bill is a priority. The heads were approved in October. Work is in progress on the Bill and it should be ready early in the new year.

Was the Taoiseach misinformed when he promised in November 1999 that the Bill would be here early this year? It is a year ago.

That tends to happen in these situations. The legislation was promised at that time. This is the first comprehensive reform of civil defence legislation and shows the Government's keen support and regard for civil defence. I am sure the legislation will be very welcome when it comes forward.

Is it not the case that this is slowing down to a stop, like everything else this Government tries to run?

About two hours ago, over 1,000 children in this city had to leave the bed and breakfast accommodation and hostels they stayed in last night and will spend the rest of the day going around the streets and public parks because they are homeless. What emergency action will the Government take to deal with the plight of these homeless children and their parents?

Has this to do with promised legislation?

When will the Government introduce the promised legislation to regulate the private rented sector, the absence of which is contributing to the increasing problem of homelessness in this city?

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

The memorandum is being circulated to all Departments. The excellent report that is being presented, which the Government supports, is working its way speedily through the system.

When will we see the legislation? There are homeless children on the streets of this city.

Is it appropriate to ask if the Estimates for the Department of Health and Children could be brought before the House rather than before the committee? I wish to raise the matter of the state of hygiene in hospitals where people—

That is not appropriate to the Order of Business. There are other ways in which to raise the matter.

I am almost finished.

That does not make the matter in order.

People are being discharged from hospital for fear they will contract an illness. I would like the Estimate to come before the House for debate in the first instance. Is that not an appropriate matter to raise here?

Under existing Standing Orders it must go before the committee.

Yesterday the Aviation Regulation Bill passed through Second Stage. A record 51 Members spoke on it. It was extraordinary that, at the end of the debate when Members had done their research and worked to make a contribution, the Minister, Deputy O'Rourke, did not come into the House but sent in the Minister of State with a five minute speech that did not refer to any contribution from either side of the House. This is a clear case of disdain for Members, contempt for the House and a degree of arrogance from the Minister that is extraordinary. As we did not have an opportunity to do so yesterday, I wish to put on record my rejection of that form of dealing with legislation.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

That matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

(Mayo): I concur with Deputy Stagg. What happened was unprecedented.

Some Government.

(Mayo): After one of the longest debates, we had a five minute cursory run through the Bill, and there was no reference to anything anyone said. The purpose of the Aer Lingus Bill is to sell off the 95% State stake in the company. The Bill has been frozen for some time because of the five industrial disputes within the company. We were given to understand by the Taoiseach yesterday that no decision had been taken on what would happen with the Bill, yet, in his conclusion to the Aviation Regulation Bill yesterday evening, the Minister of State, Deputy Jacob, was quite explicit that the Bill would be proceeding shortly. What is the position in regard to it?

The Bill has been published and is awaiting Second Stage for which a date has not yet been fixed.

Will the Taoiseach assure the House that the cost of an award made yesterday to a convicted criminal from another convicted criminal who was in the witness protection scheme—

Has this to do with promised legislation?

Will he assure the House that burden will not fall on the State?

The Deputy can pursue that matter by tabling a parliamentary question.

If there is to be such a payment the money will have to be voted. Where will it be voted—

This matter is not appropriate now.

People will be outraged if public money is used in this way.

The public want an answer.

The matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business. There are other ways of raising the issue.

This is ridiculous.

In February 1999 the Taoiseach promised that the Criminal Law (Amendment) Bill to give effect to the report of the expert group on criminal law would be introduced late that year. We are now told it will not be introduced until some time next year. Has the Taoiseach any comment to make on the administrative speediness of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform or is his administrative capacity as slow as the traffic in Dublin?

There are almost 40 Bills in the Department either before the House or promised. The Minister probably holds the record for the number of Bills he has introduced, not to mention the improvements he has made in other areas. The Criminal Law Insanity Bill is due early next year.

I did not ask about that Bill which the Taoiseach promised would be introduced earlier than it was. I was asking about the Garda Bill to amend criminal procedures. The Taoiseach indicated in the House in February 1999 that it would be introduced late that year. What value have the Taoiseach's words when he is so obviously misinformed by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform who has not yet produced the Bill in question and will not produce it until next year? Is the Minister slow at doing his job or does the Taoiseach not listen to what he is being told?

The Garda Síochána Bill is due for late next year.

Why did the Taoiseach promise it in February 1999 for late 1999 when it will not be introduced until late 2001? The Taoiseach is two years behind on this Bill as on everything else. The Government is behind again.

I want to ask about promised legislation on the A list. It is more than two years since we were promised that the Vocational Education Committee (Amendment) Bill, which would give rights of representation to parents and others, would be published. It was originally promised for before and then for after the local elections, but the committees were then packed. It was suggested that the legislation would enable some people to be dropped from the committees to allow parents to be represented. Will the legislation be published before Christmas as promised in the latest list from the Government?

The text of that Bill is expected this month, but certainly before Christmas.

Can the Taoiseach clarify the position on the Local Government Bill? It was published last May but the Minister has had to reverse engines in the past two weeks on two major parts of it. I understand there was mutiny yesterday at the parliamentary party meeting of the Fianna Fáil Party about the dual mandate and that the Taoiseach offered to intervene in the issue.

We cannot discuss that now.

Is it intended to withdraw, rewrite or proceed with the Bill in this session given that the Minister has failed to get his proposals through his own party?

It will be taken shortly.

(Dublin West): As regards the Nítrigin Éireann Teoranta Bill—

It is like kicking over a stone and seeing the beetles running underneath.

(Dublin West): The teachers are not carrying out their supervision this morning so the class is quite unruly.

The Deputy is going back to teaching.

Yes, Sir. Whatever the Deputy says, Sir.

(Dublin West): If I was in charge, Deputy John Bruton would have been sent to the corner long ago for interrupting everyone else this morning. As regards the Nítrigin Éireann Teoranta Bill, since the Minister did not give an explanation for the payment of an incredible—

Fortunately, I am not as long winded as the Deputy who gives Second Stage speeches every morning.

Order, please. I ask the Deputy to ask a question on the Order of Business.

(Dublin West): If you sent Deputy John Bruton home, a Cheann Comhairle, I might be able to continue and get my point across. As regards the Nítrigin Éireann Teoranta Bill, since the Minister has not given an explanation for an incredible payment of £188 million in interest—

We cannot discuss that matter now. The Deputy should ask a question on legislation.

(Dublin West):—on loans of £164 million since 1987 and since the Ansbacher men robbed us blind—

I ask the Deputy to put his question.

(Dublin West):—will the Taoiseach conduct an investigation into why the taxpayers have been ripped off to fatten the banks—

That is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Top
Share