Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 30 Nov 2000

Vol. 527 No. 2

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 41, Supplementary Estimates for Public Services [2000] [Vote 2] – (returned from select committee); No. 21c, Motion re Leave to Introduce Supplementary Estimates [Votes 19, 21 and 33]; No. 21d, Motion re Referral of Supplementary Estimates [Votes 19, 21 and 33] to select committee; No. 9, Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Bill, 2000 – Order for Second Stage; No. 8, Housing (Gaeltacht) (Amendment) Bill, 2000 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage; and No. 46, Youth Work Bill, 2000 – Second Stage (resumed).

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. 41, 21c and, subject to agreement on No. 21c, No. 21d shall be decided without debate. Any division demanded thereon should be taken forthwith.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is one proposal to be put to the House. That is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 41, 21c and 21d. Is that proposal agreed?

Mrs. Owen

No. It is farcical that the House be asked to approve Estimates for Public Services when any member of the public would ask – what public services? Before we agree to take this item without debate, can the Taoiseach say what the Government will do for children who are being deprived of their education and who are now into the seventh day of that deprivation. There has not been any action by the Government. The lethargy of the Taoiseach and of the Minister for Education and Science has led to this dispute continuing for as long as it has. When will the Taoiseach and his Minister sit down with the ASTI and bring this dispute to an end?

The only way to get action from the Government is to blockade the gates of Leinster House and prevent our democratic institutions from working. Groups who act in this way are granted a five hour meeting with a man while he prepares to go to Mexico.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on this matter. The Deputy should ask a question.

Mrs. Owen

What do teachers, parents and students, who are the ones I am most concerned about, have to do to have teaching services restored? Why are we agreeing an Estimate for Public Services when there is no public service? There are no taxis, no trains, no teachers and no help in hospitals.

Mrs. O'Rourke

There are trains. Deputy Owen should learn her script.

Mrs. Owen

The DART has not commenced. Full service has not been restored.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Howlin

There is incredible anger throughout the nation at the various disputes which are going on. The least the House requires from the Taoiseach is leadership. Before we decide on the procedure to be adopted today, there should be a clear statement from the Taoiseach in relation to these major disputes.

Parents are threatening to sue the Government in an unprecedented action to vindicate the right of their children to be educated.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot debate the issue.

Mr. Howlin

I only ask for the same latitude you granted the deputy leader of Fine Gael.

An Ceann Comhairle

I gave the same warning to Deputy Owen.

Mr. Howlin

We read in today's paper that two Ministers of State, Deputies O'Dea and Molloy, were involved in a blazing row over Government policy in the precincts of this House. Where is the Government on this issue?

Mr. G. Mitchell

In Mexico.

Mr. Howlin

Where stands the Government on the provision of taxis? For the past four years we have had an inadequate taxi service in this city. This Christmas we will not have any taxi service.

Mr. Dempsey

There has not been a taxi service for the past ten years, during which Deputy Howlin's party was in Government.

Mr. Howlin

Is the Minister for the Environment and Local Government taking responsibility in the absence of his "break for the border" colleague? He has statutory responsibility.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Howlin

Will the Taoiseach give a clear indication of Government policy and attempt to defuse and resolve the disputes which have brought the country to a standstill in recent weeks? We can do no better service to the people than to make that demand before we agree to any other business.

Mrs. Owen

Can we hear from the Taoiseach?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Higgins on the proposal to take these Estimates without debate.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): That is the issue I wish to address. It is impossible for the Dáil to get on with business as normal as if matters were as usual with the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy, off on a Mexican siesta, leaving utter chaos in the taxi industry in his wake,—

Mr. Sheehan

Down Mexico way.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West):—where transport policy in that regard is now dictated by the Progressive Democrats in a desperate attempt to inflate their deflated party rather than what is in the interests of the public, justice and providing a reasonable living for those who provide a taxi service. Therefore, the Dáil should today, as a matter of urgency, discuss the chaos—

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not the question before the House.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): That is what I want.

Mr. Connaughton

As the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy, is in Mexico I cannot understand why the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development and the Taoiseach are not in Cairo. The Taoiseach should make a statement in the House on what he is trying to do to prevent the collapse of the Irish beef industry.

Mr. Ring

Nothing.

Mr. Connaughton

I cannot understand why the Minister is not in Cairo.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am putting the proposal.

Mrs. Owen

Can we have an answer from the Taoiseach?

Mr. Howlin

Will the Chair allow the Taoiseach to reply?

Mr. Shatter

Will the Taoiseach tell us if he has received a postcard from the lost amigo?

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow the Taoiseach to reply and then I will put the question.

Mrs. Owen

This complacency is scandalous.

Mr. Howlin

It is no laughing matter.

The Taoiseach

I was asking Deputies to return the two Estimates to provide money for the community drug schemes under the Health Estimate and for the midlands prison under the Justice Estimate. In relation to the other matters that are not relevant to these issues—

Mrs. Owen

They are very relevant.

Mr. Flanagan

That says a lot.

(Interruptions.)

Mrs. Owen

We want an answer.

Question put: "That the proposals for dealing with items 41, 21c and 21d be agreed to”.

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, David.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Harry.

Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat. Tá–continued

Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Daly, Brendan.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Noel.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fleming, Seán.Foley, Denis.Fox, Mildred.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.

McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John J.Martin, Micheál.Moffatt, Thomas.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Donoghue, John.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Kennedy, Michael.O'Malley, Desmond.O'Rourke, Mary.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Níl

Bell, Michael.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Bruton, Richard.Burke, Ulick.Carey, Donal.Clune, Deirdre.Connaughton, Paul.Cosgrave, Michael.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Creed, Michael.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard.Enright, Thomas.Finucane, Michael.Fitzgerald, Frances.Flanagan, Charles.Gilmore, Éamon.Gormley, John.Gregory, Tony.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Jim.Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael.

Howlin, Brendan.Kenny, Enda.McDowell, Derek.McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Olivia.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Owen, Nora.Penrose, William.Perry, John.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Shatter, Alan.Sheehan, Patrick.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Power; Níl, Deputies Flanagan and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

Mrs. Owen

Given that the House will be adjourned until next Tuesday, what does the Taoiseach and his Government intend to do between now and then to ensure that dialogue is opened with the ASTI to ensure that our children, whom the State is obliged to protect under the Constitution, will all get their equal rights to an education? Some students in TUI or private colleges are still getting their education. Parents are deeply concerned about the examination prospects of their children who are not being taught. The Taoiseach cannot sit on his hands in regard to this issue. We must see some action. We saw action when people blockaded the gates of this House. What do the teachers and parents have to do for the Government to enter into dialogue with the teachers and bring this dispute to an end?

The Taoiseach knows this dispute will be brought to an end and that some solution will be found for the demands of ASTI. Will he give an indication that our students will not lose any more school days because of this dispute? The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Woods, might for once become a bit more proactive on this issue.

Mr. Currie

He is consulting his travel agent to see where he can go.

Mr. Broughan

On the same subject—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot ask a question. I have pointed out over and over again that nobody can intervene during the leaders' questions, other than the leaders or acting leaders.

The Taoiseach

Two aspects of this are being followed through on and developed. There have been talks over the past number of months with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and IBEC relating to the difficulties in public and private sector pay. Last night those talks went on until the early hours of the morning, as they did the night before. There is a commitment that they will meet again this afternoon and continue through the weekend if necessary. These talks are about all the issues and directly feed into the question the Deputy raised about ASTI.

I take this opportunity to again ask the Association of Secondary Teachers of Ireland to use the process that is there. Hopefully we can come to some conclusion on the overall talks. From what many Deputies said here the other day, the teachers are anxious to find a forum where they can address the issues on which they feel they have fallen behind other professional workers in the State, where they can put forward their difficulties and where they can address some of the conditions they believe are problems for them. All these issues can be addressed. The forum for that is the benchmarking forum, which is chaired by an independent judge and where all these issues can be put.

If the ASTI contacts the Minister in the next few hours, indicating it is prepared to use that benchmarking process – as the TUI and the INTO are – this matter will be over. This is a call for it to do that. There is no other resolution and it should do that.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Howlin.

Mrs. Owen

Can we not ask the Taoiseach to hold out his hand—

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a prolonged debate on the Order of Business.

Mr. Howlin

I wish to raise two matters, the first of which I have already raised. The Taoiseach has outlined Government policy on the new taxi regulations. I heard the Tánaiste outline a similar policy this morning. A Minister of State is saying something different, however. Will the Taoiseach tell the House whether it is acceptable to him for members of his Government to espouse a different view at local level from that espoused by him on behalf of the Government?

My second question relates to a court case yesterday, where a judge—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is the acting leader of his party and is only entitled to ask one question outside of—

Mr. Howlin

I beg your indulgence, Sir, on this matter on which—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot multiply his questions.

Mr. Howlin

—all Members of the House will have a strong view.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy can ask only a question appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Howlin

I will anchor it to the Order of Business in relation to the courts and court officers Bill. A decision was made in the courts yesterday to ban any reporting of a particular case, notwithstanding the clear requirements—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not develop his point, he must ask a question.

Mr. Howlin

—of Article 34 of the Constitution that justice be administered in public.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is disorderly to proceed to—

Mr. Howlin

Will the Taoiseach ensure, in the context of the courts and court officers Bill, that this growing practice of not conducting justice in public will be addressed? The Sun newspaper this morning said it was gagged.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order for the Deputy to display a newspaper in that manner in the House.

Mr. Howlin

I understand a variety of the media are going to the High Court today.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat as he is being disorderly.

Mr. Howlin

This is a matter of great—

An Ceann Comhairle

The question is out of order.

The Taoiseach

In regard to the first matter, I repeat that I cannot stop people having views. However, I will not tolerate views that are contrary to the collective responsibility of Government. That is what I have already said this week.

Mrs. Owen

Why does Deputy Callely disappear every morning? He is afraid to stay here.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Tomorrow is international AIDS day and the House will not be sitting. According to official statistics, the number of people presenting with HIV infection has tripled since 1998.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a question on the Order of Business?

Mr. G. Mitchell

Yes, I have. There is clearly an epidemic of sexually transmitted diseases and—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has not heard the Deputy's question yet. Will the Deputy ask a question on the Order of Business?

Mr. G. Mitchell

Will the Taoiseach ensure the Minister makes a statement to the House on the matter or, at least, attends the committee next week when we take the Estimate to deal with this matter? This epidemic needs to be addressed by this House.

The Taoiseach

You will forgive me, a Cheann Comhairle, for saying that the House has just divided on the question of money to do something about that, but that might have been for some other silly reason.

Mrs. Owen

It is not silly that students are not being educated. That shows how out of touch the Taoiseach is.

The Taoiseach

It was very unwise of Deputy Owen to divide on a very serious issue raised by her own front bench colleagues. Let us be frank about it.

Mrs. Owen

It is a farce to have an Estimate for the public service when there is no public service.

The Taoiseach

I will speak to the Minister regarding the issue raised by the Deputy.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy McManus.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

The Opposition voted against the money.

Mr. G. Mitchell

We voted against taking Estimates with no debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

Ms McManus

I think the Taoiseach will accept that the Government's record in regard to dealing with the shortage of nurses has been one of abject failure. The situation is now worse than—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is making a statement. She must ask a question on the Order of Business.

Ms McManus

Given that great numbers of patients in our major and smaller hospitals are sleeping on trolleys because, although there are empty hospital beds—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is continuing to make a statement that I have pointed out is disorderly.

Ms McManus

—the wards are not staffed by nurses.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must ask a question on promised legislation.

Ms McManus

Will the Taoiseach bring forward the nursing Bill to deal with this issue once and for all? He must stop trying to put sticking plaster on this need which is becoming extensive, particularly in the Dublin hospitals, and is preventing proper patient care.

Mr. G. Mitchell

The Taoiseach is running out of sticking plaster.

The Taoiseach

The heads of the nursing Bill are in preparation in the Department. They are expected shortly after Christmas and the legislation will be drafted later in the year.

Mr. Connaughton

Will the Taoiseach and the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development go to Cairo today or tomorrow to get the ban on Irish beef lifted? This is a vitally important matter—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must ask a question on promised legislation.

Mr. Connaughton

—for all Irish farmers.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should avail of other ways to raise the matter. It does not involve promised legislation.

Mr. Connaughton

If the Taoiseach has any interest in Irish farmers he will answer the question.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Broughan.

Mr. Connaughton

The Taoiseach has not answered the question.

Mr. Broughan

Is the Taoiseach aware that so far—

Mr. Connaughton

One Minister has gone to Mexico where he should not be.

Mr. Finucane

Adios amigo.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Broughan, on the Order of Business and promised legislation.

Mr. Broughan

This is in regard to the carers leave Bill. The Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs, Deputy Ahern, trumpeted this in last year's budget, but so far only 11 people have been approved for carer's benefit. One of the major reasons for that seems to be that the Taoiseach has not introduced the carers leave Bill yet. What is the timeframe for that Bill? Is the Government serious about this legislation?

The Taoiseach yanked the Minister for Education and Science out of the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources when he was being pursued by a flotilla of fishermen. Is the—

Mr. Shatter

He is at sea in the Department of Education and Science.

Mrs. Owen

He should have stayed where he was.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

Mr. Broughan

Is the Taoiseach prepared to order him to urgently meet the ASTI trade union and to bring this disgraceful dispute to an end?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's second question is not in order.

The Taoiseach

The legislation will be published shortly.

Mr. Shatter

The humans rights commission Act has to be brought into force under the Good Friday Agreement. When will the commencement order be made to bring that legislation into force? Will the Taoiseach clarify whether that is being delayed because the Government is not prepared to appoint to the commission people recommended by its own appointments commission, which was set up to determine the membership of the commission?

The Taoiseach

The legislation is passed. I do not know the date of the commencement order. Perhaps the Deputy will raise it with the Minister.

Mr. Penrose

Last night the House concluded a debate on a Labour Party Private Members' motion on BSE. The Government introduced an amendment to the effect that it would be introducing further measures to deal with this matter. Will this require legislation?

Will the Taoiseach indicate if the Government will support EU Commissioner Byrne's proposals on the total ban on meat and bonemeal? That was integral to the Labour Party's Private Member's motion, yet the Government voted it down. Is the Government presenting two faces on this issue? It is essential that the motion be adhered to when the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development visits Egypt. Last night in the House the Minister disrupted the national consensus on this issue. Is legislation required?

The Taoiseach

Of course we support the EU Commission proposals.

Mr. Howlin

Why did the Government not support the Labour Party's Private Members' motion last night?

Mr. Penrose

It is because the Government Members of the House were not here.

The Taoiseach

New proposals were put forward last night by the EU Commission which will be debated today at the veterinary committee and at the EU Council of Ministers meeting next Monday.

Mr. Penrose

We made similar proposals last Friday.

Mr. Coveney

Will the Taoiseach indicate if it is the Government's intention to introduce an independent body to investigate complaints by the public against the Garda Síochána? The Garda Commissioner has indicated he does not have a difficulty with the principle. Yesterday the Taoiseach said there was no upcoming legislation to deal with this. Perhaps he will correct the House on that because the Garda Síochána Bill is due to be introduced next year. Is it his intention to deal with this issue through that legislation?

The Taoiseach

I did not get an opportunity to answer the Deputy yesterday because his question arose at the end of the Order of Business. I am glad to be able to respond now. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has said he is undertaking a review of the Garda complaints procedure. A Garda Síochána Bill is before the House. It contains no proposals on this issue. However, the Minister will take full account of the Garda Commissioner's observations and the recommendations made by the Garda Síochána complaints board, which has made proposals in this regard.

The European committee dealing with the prevention of torture and human or degrading treatment has also made proposals and extensive consultations have taken place with other interested parties, such as the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and staff associations linked to all of those bodies.

The Minister is concerned to ensure that any new arrangements will enhance the procedures for investigating complaints made against members of the Garda Síochána. It is expected that a review will be completed shortly at which stage the Minister will be in a position to bring proposals to Government in respect of the changes to the existing arrangements that will arise. In this context the Minister will introduce whatever new legislation is considered necessary.

Mr. Howlin

On that matter—

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate ensuing from the Taoiseach's statement.

Mr. Howlin

The Taoiseach made a long reply.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should proceed by way of parliamentary question. I call Deputy Flanagan. We must conclude the Order of Business.

Mr. Stagg

On a point of order, the Taoiseach may have inadvertently misinformed the House. I understand the Bill to which he referred has not been published and is not before the House.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is correct. The Garda Síochána Bill will not be before the House until next year. That does not necessarily mean the regulations referred to will be included in that legislation. The Minister will introduce whatever legislation is considered necessary.

Mr. Howlin

May I ask a brief question?

An Ceann Comhairle

Briefly, because it is not orderly.

Mr. Howlin

With regard to the proposals referred to, the Minister has promised reform of the Garda Complaints Board. Will the heads of the Bill setting out the amending legislation be sent in advance to the relevant Oireachtas committee so that we can consider the Ombudsman proposal, which we fully support for Northern Ireland and which is a better model for the Garda complaints procedure than the one in place? When will the 1999 report of the Garda Complaints Board be published?

The Taoiseach

I do not know when the report will be published but I am sure the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will provide an answer.

Mr. Flanagan

When replying to a previous question the Taoiseach mentioned degrading treatment. Will he confirm a statement by Deputy Healy-Rae to the effect that the local government Bill has now been scrapped?

The Taoiseach

The Bill is listed and is scheduled to be introduced to the House as soon as possible.

Mr. Flanagan

It is degrading treatment of the Minister for the Environment and Local Government.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Does the Taoiseach intend to introduce legislation to make legal the confiscation of salaries of those who have withdrawn from voluntary work in schools?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not deal with promised legislation.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): If the confiscation of salaries in this way is illegal it raises a question about promised legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

We must conclude the Order of Business.