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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 12 Dec 2000

Vol. 528 No. 1

Private Members' Business. - Bovine Spongiform Encephalitis: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann:

–conscious of the new and greater difficulties for Irish farmers resulting from the detection of BSE in continental EU member states;

–wishing to counter the serious consequences which this will have for consumers, farm families, workers in the food processing industry and the fabric of rural society and communities;

–noting the recent estimate by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development that the cost of testing cattle is approximately IR£25 per head;

–noting with concern the compromised position of the Government in international export markets due to recent revelations regarding the Minister of State, Deputy Ned O'Keeffe, in his responsibilities for food quality and safety;

calls on the Government to take immediate action:

–to provide for immediate testing of all beef animals entering the food chain;

–to secure the best possible valuation for animals for destruction under the EU scheme;

–to institute immediately a direct income support scheme for affected beef producers, in the context of a common, EU-wide scheme and, in particular, for farmers wholly or mainly dependent on beef for their income;

–to provide for the construction of an incineration plant to dispose of the carcases of all animals taken out of the national herd as a consequence of the eradication programme;

–to put in place a certification system under which certified, tested BSE-free beef can be sold to domestic and export customers;

–to ensure that all of this action is clearly placed in the context of common EU measures; and

–to ensure that Bord Bia adopts an energetic and innovative market promotion of certified tested BSE-free Irish beef.

I wish to share my time with Deputies Stanton and Sheehan.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

The objective of this motion is to ensure that timely and effective measures are taken so that Irish and foreign consumers can continue to consume with confidence healthy, quality, nutritious Irish beef, so that farming families all over Ireland can continue to make a living from producing it and so that our processing plants can continue to employ Irish people in processing Irish beef into an ever expanding range of safe, healthy food products. I invite the Government to say tonight that it agrees with these objectives, that it will provide the national resources that are required for timely and effective action and that it will press the European Union authorities to do likewise.

The European Union Agriculture Ministers, the heads of state and Government meeting in Nice last week and the beef management commit tee meeting today have only begun to scratch the surface of this problem. I deplore the fact that both the Taoiseach and the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development last week refused to answer a question I tabled, asking what proposals they would bring to the EU summit in Nice. I ask the Government now to accept the programme outlined in this motion and to treat the current crisis with the seriousness it deserves.

I regret to say that, as matters stand at the moment, the Government's ability to deal with the issues before us is seriously compromised by the many unanswered questions concerning the activities of the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, Deputy Ned O'Keeffe. The Minister of State has serious questions to answer.

First, is he the Edmund O'Keeffe who, according to records in the Companies Office, purchased £1.4 million worth of animal feeding stuffs from Ballylough Milling Limited in 1999? Second, if he is that Edmund O'Keeffe, why did he purchase £1.4 million worth of feedstuffs if, as he claims, he has no connection with the running of his family's farming businesses? Third, what were these feedstuffs used for – were they fed to animals in the O'Keeffe family farm enterprises? Fourth, what kind of feedstuffs were they – did they contain meat and bonemeal? Fifth, why was payment for these foodstuffs still outstanding to the milling company at the end of the year?

If the Minister of State is the Edmund O'Keeffe who bought those feedstuffs, he must answer those questions tonight. If his answers are not satisfactory, he should resign. If he does not voluntarily resign, he should be dismissed. If he is the Edmund O'Keeffe who bought the feedstuffs, no conceivable answer that he can give will be satisfactory, since his position demands, for reasons that have been well ventilated in recent days, that he should have no connection whatever with any of the activities of his family farm enterprises.

The Labour Party has tabled an amendment calling for the suspension of the Minister of State. At this point, I do not think that is enough. However, I am disposed to accept the Labour Party amendment in the interests of having a united Opposition front and so that the Government can agree with the motion. The Minister of State in charge of food quality and safety, who is so compromised in all the ways that have recently emerged, is clearly a major obstacle to the kind of action which we now need our Government to undertake to deal with the grave issues that confront us.

The motion sets out the framework for the action which we believe is required. We must provide for immediate testing of all beef animals entering the food chain. This is so that we can identify, track and eliminate BSE. That testing must begin at the earliest possible moment, must continue for as along as is required and must be carried out as widely as is required.

I know there are arguments about the relative risk levels of different categories of cattle. It is believed that some categories of animal do not pose any risk. It is said, for example, that no case of BSE has ever been found in the categories of animals normally sold by Irish butchers to our consumers, which I think is true. The fresh beef consumed in this country is typically beef from young heifers, and no case of BSE has ever been found in such an animal. Equally, no case of BSE has ever been found in a steer. Prime Irish beef exported to other member states of the European Union and third countries is typically prime steer beef. It has been said to me, with justification, that the implication that a beef animal aged 32 months is somehow inferior to a beef animal aged 28 months gives consumers an inadequate picture of the facts.

I have no doubt that there are grounds for all those arguments and that, on the basis of what we know up to now about this affliction, it can be said that they are true and should be taken into account. We must be conscious, however, that we are dealing with a very important public health issue and with consumer perceptions. However much we might like that it were otherwise, education and information take much longer to form opinions than perceptions. That being the case, it is entirely reasonable to test all animals over 30 months of age.

It is worth pointing out that such testing has been carried out in Ireland in the past. One multiple store in 1996 applied the ENFER test to beef animals that went into the products it sold on its shelves. No disease was found in any of those animals. When the birth cohorts were tested, a small number of cows was detected. However, no beef animal that entered the food chain was found to have posed any risk, and none of the animals that were found to pose a risk had entered the food chain. That testing continued for a year. The enterprise in question, having found no trace of the disease during a year of testing, discontinued the tests.

My contention, however, is that even if we find that to be the situation, we should keep on testing. That is necessary from a prudential point of view and in restoring consumer confidence.

If, as I would expect, no indication of the disease is found in prime steer or heifer beef entering the food chain from Irish herds, we should ensure that fact is known. We should also ensure it is known that we are testing comprehensively. In that way we will be able to market prime Irish beef, tested and proven to be BSE free. That is the central, fundamental logic of applying testing at the earliest possible moment as widely as we possibly can and for as long as it seems to be required. It would be an expensive programme, as the Minister said recently on television, but it is one we must undertake as there is no shirking it.

We must eliminate all animals that may pose a risk. That is the logic of a testing for destruction scheme agreed by the EU Agriculture Ministers. It means we must have comprehensive testing. The testing for destruction scheme has a function in that anybody who has an animal that should enter the food chain must want, and be required, to have it tested. If there are any other animals about which there is doubt the destruction scheme will address that.

We must have comprehensive testing, but we should be clear that this will entail huge costs. These will take the form of reduced asset values, the reduction of herds and the reduction in overall output. That is where serious income losses to farmers will arise, where throughput and income losses will arise in the processing industry and where social and community problems will begin. No area of the country will be unaffected and in making provision for these schemes, we must recognise that fact. That is why there is an urgent need to define the system of compensation which will deal with these problems.

The motion identifies the need to secure the best possible valuation for animals for destruction under the EU scheme. I submit that the Minister has enough experience with the difficulties of valuations and enough goodwill in trying to resolve those problems to know what I mean when I say it would be extremely important to have a satisfactory level established for animals that go into the destruction scheme. The motion goes on to call for the immediate institution of a direct income support scheme for affected beef producers in the context of a common EU wide scheme which would aim especially at farmers who are wholly or mainly dependent on beef for their income. This will require the institution of a form of slaughter premium backdated to the emergence of this latest round of the problem. It will be needed to offset the dramatic reductions in income which now face beef producers all over the country.

I do not accept the dismissive approach of EU Commissioner Fischler, interviewed again on this issue a few days ago, when he says the EU does not have any money. The EU is faced with this problem in the same way as the member states. There must be a co-ordinated common response.

The compensation scheme will have to be underpinned by an effective EU-wide market intervention measure. Realistically we must expect a substantial reduction in the demand for beef in the EU. We have already seen the closure of certain third country markets. All of that is bound to affect beef sales. We need a substantial intervention measure to ensure that reasonable levels of activity can be maintained in the beef processing industry. It must be available throughout the EU on equitable terms to farmers in all member states. We cannot accept the kind of price differential that has up to now been a deplorable and common feature of EU intervention measures in the beef sector.

Once we have traced and eliminated the animals that may pose a risk we must dispose of the carcases. That means we must provide for incineration. We can no longer rely on the process we used up to now, that is, rendering and storing these carcases until we can export them to Germany for incineration. Storage is not a method of disposal; it merely postpones the problem.

Burial is not an acceptable method of disposal. Until recently it was regarded as being a less unacceptable means of dealing with the carcases of suspect animals than transporting them around the country, but too many questions surround it. Nor is it practical to propose a sealed burial for suspect animal carcases along the lines of the systems used in some other countries to bury nuclear waste – in the hope that it will have been forgotten by the time they pose a problem. That is not an option.

Since neither storage nor burial is acceptable we must inevitably opt for incineration and we must make provision for it ourselves, even if it is only because the facilities abroad, which currently incinerate our rendered carcases, will themselves have a huge problem to deal with. The argument against the incineration of carcases by environmentalists are theoretical, perfectionist nonsense. We are dealing with a problem we would not ever wish to have. Whether we could have foreseen it is not the issue. It is with us and it must be addressed.

Arguments against incineration are in the realm of fantasy; we must deal with the real problem in the real world. That will require a substantial public capital expenditure, a coherent policy to ensure that the right animals are targeted, trapped and destroyed and a clear sighted and determined policy on location. Environmental denial of this would be irresponsible.

We need as quickly as possible to be in a position where we can certify tested BSE free beef to home and export consumers. We must be able to track beef from the farms to the processors, retailers and the table. That will require the utmost co-operation from all involved in the chain and it will mean effective and transparent administration. It is the only approach which gives us any hope of being able to begin what will be a long and demanding process of restoring consumer confidence and making beef production again a healthy and profitable part of our food production sectors.

We must ensure that there is common and concerted action on these problems at EU level. The current problem has been magnified by the failure of other member states to take the kind of action we took in 1996. Irish beef producers are being unfairly penalised for deficiencies on the part of other member states. It is especially galling that one of the member states where the problem has now emerged as a major issue of confidence is France. We all remember the holier than thou attitude the French Administration took to Irish beef even in the wake of the very substantial and difficult measures we introduced in 1996.

I stress that the action taken must be common and concerted between the EU members states. They must tackle this problem together. Consumers can be protected only by common action. Consumer confidence will be regained only by common standards and farm families can be effectively helped only by common action. It is surely clear by now that non-participation by some other members states in the action taken in 1996 was disastrous.

I have already said that a differential effect of any intervention measure will not be acceptable in Ireland. Irish farmers who have supported difficult actions, which have been costly to them since 1996, will not now accept any less favourable treatment than that given to farmers in other member states.

When all these measures are put in place, as they must be, at the earliest possible moment, Bord Bia, with the co-operation of all players in the beef sector, must adopt an energetic and innovative approach to the market promotion of certified and tested BSE free Irish beef. That promotion must be backed by credible measures on farms and in beef processing plants. It must also be backed by Ministers and Ministers of State whose credibility on the issue is beyond any possible question.

While I am pleased to speak on this issue, I am also saddened to do so. We live in an age when we are lucky to have the best food in the world. We have a wide variety of good quality food of which past generations could not dream. We have companies which are developing new food products all the time and leading the way in the world. I have visited some of these companies and I have been highly impressed with their professionalism and the way they do their business. They are conscious of the importance of food safety and of having food of the highest standard. We can be proud of our food processors and of those who manufacture our food and foodstuffs.

We must bear in mind that the consumer is king. The consumer today is discerning and informed. Anything which causes the consumer to be misinformed must be examined. Perception and confidence in food are important. People are conscious of what they eat. They want assurance that what they eat is safe, pure and good for them. The food produced in this country by the farmers and processors is the best in the world. Any adverse publicity or action by anybody which damages that perception will damage our economy. This issue, more than any other, has the potential to do great damage to our wider economy. Deputies, Senators and MEPs from both the Government and Opposition must do their utmost to ensure this issue is dealt with as quickly and economically as possible.

We must ensure our reputation abroad is guaranteed and that the food we export is seen to be safe and of the highest quality. We know it is safe but it is not good enough for us to say it is safe; we must prove it scientifically. That is why we must test every animal which enters the food chain. I read today in the newspapers that ENFER is ready to test and it is waiting for the Department to give it the go ahead to do so. I call on the Minister to ensure this testing procedure is carried out as quickly as possible. He must also ensure that anything which damages the reputation of Irish food at home and abroad is dealt with, regardless of how painful it is. The cost of not doing so is too great.

We talk about tracing our food from the farm to the fork. Farmers have invested heavily in their farms to comply with pollution and hygiene regulations, animal welfare criteria, the traceability system and so on. It is difficult for farmers to get up in the morning to feed their cattle and then to find they will not get a return for them. It is not the farmers' fault.

I ask the Minister to clarify what type of premium will be paid to farmers when their animals are slaughtered. How much will they get? Is it true that the French will get payments at pre-BSE prices? Is there any truth in the reports that Irish farmers may get prices based on last month's returns? Will the Minister consider paying a special assistance grant on the slaughter documents, regardless of who slaughters the cattle? That was suggested to me as one way of helping farmers in this situation.

What is happening in Europe? We have put our tests in place so we can guarantee that the beef we produce is safe. Perhaps the Minister can tell us why the Europeans have let everyone down.

What is the up-to-date position in terms of our markets in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere? I remember asking the Minister recently why he did not visit our largest market when this problem arose to head it off at the pass. He said he was possibly badly advised that it would be wrong to go at that time. The Minister should have gone out at the beginning. Perhaps he could tell the House about his recent trip to Egypt. How did he get on there and what further action does he intend to take to ensure that market is reopened to us?

I sympathise with the Minister, who is a colleague in my constituency, on having to deal with such an enormous problem. However, I am not sure he had the same sympathy for Deputy Yates who was Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry when this disease broke out. There were few people on this side of the House at that time who supported Deputy Yates. He was blamed for a reduction in cattle prices and for the disinterest in Irish beef.

I remember receiving a pamphlet in south-west Cork during the last general election, which was signed by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, which stated that Deputy Walsh would soon restore the status of Irish beef on the inter national market. I give the man credit for doing his best.

The Deputy should not go overboard. It took him a long time to do it.

I thank Deputy Sheehan.

However, he has not lived up to the message he gave to my constituents during the last election. The Minister faces the predicament today that Deputy Yates faced four years ago. The Minister should not have to carry the can for this debacle. His predecessor, Deputy O'Kennedy, imposed a complete ban on the use of meat and bonemeal but it was not fully implemented, which was the kernel of the problem. I give credit to the former Minister for seeking a complete ban on all meat and bonemeal products. However, an escape hatch was found and this ban was not implemented. Some people in the Minister's Department introduced a back door measure to feed this product to ruminants as well as poultry and pigs, which also enter the food chain. Feeding meat and bonemeal to poultry and pigs is the same as feeding it to ruminants.

I said in this House two weeks ago that there should be a complete ban on the use of meat and bonemeal. This happened three days afterwards. However, I am not happy about the statement from Europe that this ban will apply for just six months. How can we get rid of the BSE disease in Europe if meat and bonemeal is banned for just six months? EU Ministers for Agriculture are codding themselves. The Minister must insist that meat and bonemeal is banned forever. I admire his efforts to obtain a disease free beef product but he must act quickly to impose the regulation. I have been informed that meat and bonemeal is still being used. I do not know if this is correct, therefore, I ask the Minister to deny this if he can. The Minister must take the bull by the horns and approach this matter in a genuine way. He has the ability, courage and determination to do so. I admire the swiftness of his actions in ensuring the immediate testing of all animals over 30 months.

When I spoke in this House two weeks ago I urged the Minister to give special incentives to farmers who produce baby beef. Half or three-quarter tonne bullocks or carcases are no longer needed. What is needed to bring Irish beef to the required standard is the production of baby beef. Did the Minister for Finance do anything in the budget to promote that? I gave timely notice of this requirement ten days before the budget was introduced and nothing was done about it. Farmers who produce baby beef and make sure that the product which is being exported all over the world will be disease free were not given any incentive. The Minister, who has great principles and for whom I have great admiration, should cut out the red tape. He cannot sit idly by in his armchair and let Irish farmers be held to ransom by European farmers who fed meat and bonemeal to their ruminants while he introduced a blanket ban which, in the event, was not imposed.

The Minister who will soon have to build an incineration plant will have to face up to the facts. He must tackle this problem. He cannot shy away from it. He may wish to locate an incineration plant in the midlands or in his own constituency of south-west Cork, but I doubt it. I urge the Minister to take immediate steps to deal with these carcases in the future. He cannot put them into cold storage. They will have to be dumped somewhere. Perhaps he intends dumping the carcases at sea. The carcases will have to be disposed of one way or another. The Minister should address this problem. We will not be able to convince Egypt, Saudi Arabia or other countries to which we export beef that we have a disease free product until he ensures the beef we export is baby beef, up to two and a half years old.

Other EU member states have a happy go lucky policy which has dragged the Minister into this net. He should not be misled by these countries. We have the finest quality beef in the world. However, this will be of no benefit unless we can convince the countries to whom we export beef that we have a product which will stand up to any type of scrutiny.

I wish to share my time with the Minister of State, Deputy O'Keeffe, who will deal with relevant issues relating to his position. I move amendment No. 1 and confirm that I am not prepared to accept amendment 1 to amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

–"recognising the need to protect public health and reinforce consumer confidence;

–conscious of the new and greater difficulties for Irish farmers resulting from the detection of BSE in Continental EU member states;

–wishing to counter the serious consequences which this could have for farm families, workers in the food processing industry and the fabric of rural society and communities;

–noting the recent decisions at EU level in particular in regard to testing, animal feed and the purchase of cattle for destruction;

–and noting the statement and clarification by the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, Deputy Ned O'Keeffe; supports the Government's actions:

–to safeguard the integrity and safety of Irish beef by implementing stringent controls to protect consumer health and to eradicate BSE from the cattle population,

–to implement the further decisions that have been taken recently at EU level,

–to encourage the implementation of appropriate arrangements in association with the industry to deal with animal waste and other material from the livestock sector,

–to pursue the provision of appropriate EU market and support arrangements to assist livestock producers affected by the market situation,

–to ensure that all the relevant agencies continue to adopt an energetic and innovative approach to the promotion of Irish beef and cattle, and

–to keep the matter under review in the light of scientific developments.".

I move the amendment in the context of seeking to secure the agreement of all sides to the issues involved and, in particular, on the actions that require to be taken to deal comprehensively with BSE and to further protect public health. We also need measures, at least in the short-term, to deal with the adverse effects on the market and to assist producers whose incomes are affected. I am confident that the House will support the amended and composite motion when it has fully considered the issues involved.

I thank Deputy Dukes for tabling the motion and I also thank Deputy Sheehan for the neighbourly and helpful advice he offered.

The Minister is quite welcome.

We had a comprehensive and constructive debate on 28 and 29 November on BSE and related issues. There have been a number of significant developments at EU level since then and I welcome this further debate. I look forward to further constructive contributions on this important issue, about which we all have legitimate and genuine concerns. These concerns have been heightened by recent events in Europe, where a number of issues have seriously affected consumer confidence in these and other countries and have resulted in market access difficulties to third countries. The debate gives me the opportunity to outline the measures being taken here and at EU level.

In the debate two weeks ago, I gave data showing that the overall incidence of BSE in Ireland continues to be extremely low and pointed out that it represents 0.0012% of our total cattle population. I also pointed out that the higher number of cases here this year was foreseen in the recent report of the European Union's scientific steering committee. This predicted a temporary increase in numbers for the next couple of years from animals infected prior to the measures introduced in 1996 and 1997. That committee also concluded that the Irish system was "optimally stable" from 1998, meaning that the measures in place since then prevent the prion agent of BSE from re-infecting cattle.

From the earliest stages, we have had an extensive range of surveillance and control measures to deal with BSE and these were significantly revamped in 1996 and 1997 in the aftermath of the announcement of the possible link between BSE and the new variant CJD. In my opinion the Irish control and eradication system, which I outlined in detail on the last occasion, is among the most comprehensive in the world. We have updated our controls on an ongoing basis and will continue to do so as more information and scientific knowledge become available.

The recent unilateral actions by some countries are symptomatic of the tremendous political pressure being brought to bear on member states to introduce measures, which they see as necessary, to re-assure their consumers, notwithstanding that no new information or scientific developments as regards BSE or CJD has emerged.

It was critical, in light of these events, that the Council of Ministers should move quickly to re-establish a Community approach to dealing with BSE by adopting a series of supplementary measures to help restore consumer confidence in beef. We have consistently stated that we believe the correct way to proceed is to adopt an EU-wide, science-based approach. This is preferable to and certainly more effective than sporadic, unco-ordinated, unilateral actions by individual countries on, at best, dubious scientific grounds.

In the first instance, the Council met for 17 hours on 20 and 21 November following which it issued a statement emphasising the wide range of measures already in place to control BSE and noted the importance of effective implementation of these measures. It reconvened on 4 December to consider further Commission proposals relating to extending the ban on meat and bonemeal, testing requirements for cattle over 30 months of age, the introduction of a purchase for destruction scheme, market measures and other aspects.

At that meeting, and following prolonged and intense negotiations, the Council reached a series of conclusions relating to protecting public health, restoring consumer confidence in beef and providing for the introduction of support for the beef market. The conclusions covered a wide range of issues among which were: the extension of the current ban on the use of meat and bone-meal from 1 January next for a temporary period of six months; agreement to the Commission decision for a rapid BSE detection test for cattle over 30 months and the need for EU financing for tests; animals over 30 months can go to the food chain only if tested; the Council noted the proposal for a "purchases for destruction" scheme for livestock over 30 months in order to provide an alternative outlet for such animals – the compensation payable for such animals would take account of the different types of animals and markets and the measure will attract 70% financing from the Union; and agreement on a frame work for the lifting of national measures by certain member states.

The Council also decided that it is essential to introduce intervention, the details of which would be decided at the beef management committee. At my insistence the Council also accepted that beef producers are likely to be adversely affected by the market situation and called on the Commission to report on the situation and to make proposals to the Council which undertook to act on these as a matter of urgency. Finally, the Council called on the Commission to examine the question of alternative proteins for farm animals and to bring forward any appropriate proposals.

Bearing in mind the divergence of views among Ministers, it was essential that this particular Council reached a successful conclusion and that the full range of issues which had arisen were adequately addressed. In my view the agreement provides an improved framework for protecting human and animal health and restoring consumer confidence. It also provided the basis for addressing market aspects and for assisting producers. We now need to finalise the outstanding aspects of the arrangements at EU level and to proceed with implementation of what was agreed.

I have previously outlined in some detail the position as regards meat and bonemeal ban. In particular, we have had a comprehensive range of controls in place to ensure that cattle/sheep in Ireland could not have access to feeds containing meat and bonemeal. All other member states did not have such controls to eliminate the possibility of cross-contamination of ruminant feeds in feed mills.

Neither the EU scientific committee nor the Food Safety Authority of Ireland's BSE sub-committee has recommended a ban on scientific grounds on the use of meat and bonemeal for non-ruminant feed. However, and in view of the enforcement difficulties in many other member states and the central role played by the product in the wider BSE issue, the Commission proposed and the Council has now accepted an EU wide ban on meat and bonemeal in all farm animal feed for six months. The decision taken by the Council in that regard was not unanimous and at least two members states did not support it.

I supported this proposal at the Council, notwithstanding that it was not warranted on scientific grounds in our circumstances and the difficulties that will arise in implementing it here. For example, some 150,000 tonnes of commercial meat and bonemeal are produced here each year. In the short-term, animal waste will have to be processed and stored at a significant cost and the policy represents a major potential risk to the environment.

I have previously indicated that it is essential that we put in place arrangements for ultimately disposing in Ireland of all BSE material and other animal wastes. In effect, this means incineration or thermal treatment facilities of some sort. Without such facilities, we will very soon be facing environmental and waste management problems of an unprecedented scale. Ireland is the only country in Europe without such facilities for this purpose. I was heartened by this evening's contributions, those from all parties in the Dáil on 28 and 29 November and in the Seanad last week in respect of this matter. I hope this consensus will continue to apply and percolate down to local level in order that members of all parties will come to realise that we cannot expect other member states to deal with our problems for us.

The recent decision at EU level provides that cattle over 30 months cannot enter the food chain unless they pass one of the EU validated rapid tests. There is no legal requirement to test cattle which are under 30 months of age. I am proceeding with arrangements for the testing of cattle over 30 months from early January next and we are finalising the operational and logistical issues involved. Three companies are capable of carrying out these tests which are somewhat difficult, given that they involve a post mortem examination. We must deal with the logistics before we increase the level of testing. However, we should be in a position to do so in the new year.

As regards numbers, approximately 750,000 cattle over 30 months of age are processed each year. Data from the CMMS shows that to date this year, more than 1.1 million cattle or about 60% of the total national herd are over 30 months of age. Given the slaughtering pattern, I am confident that there will be sufficient capacity to deal with testing at the level required from early January. The youngest ever confirmed case of BSE in Ireland involved a cow of 45 months of age. Accordingly, the use of the test on animals under 30 months of age is not an immediate priority, given the volume of tests to be arranged and the limited capacity initially available.

I will now outline some of the decisions taken today at the beef management meeting. The "purchase for destruction" scheme was finalised this evening. This measure is seen by the Commission primarily as a market managing tool, as is evidenced by the fact that it is being introduced under Article 38 of the basic beef regulation. The Commission hopes to attract up to 500,000 tonnes of beef into the scheme across Europe over the next year and, thereby, help to offset the reduction in beef consumption in some of the other member states. This measure is, therefore, significantly different from the over 30 months scheme which was introduced in the UK in 1996 as a public health measure because under the regulation, the price will be based on the average market price in each member state for individual categories over a four week period. Thus the price available under the destruction scheme in each member state will be somewhat higher than the current market prices and this will ensure the scheme will be attractive across the EU, giving producers an incentive to sell cattle into the scheme. If the scheme is not attractive it will not be used and the EU wishes to make sure it is attractive to all the member states. It is of major importance that the scheme is equally attractive to all producers in the EU because market balance next year will be crucially dependent on the number of cattle sold under the scheme.

While I am not enamoured of the scheme and would prefer better targeting of cattle being slaughtered, I accept that this type of measure is unavoidable in present circumstances. Given that the measure is primarily market driven, we had sought a destruction price at a higher level than that adopted by the beef management committee today. However, given the lack of preparedness of most member states to commence testing early in the new year, it is likely that a significant number of cattle will be sold into the scheme. Clearly, this will open new market opportunities for Irish beef, particularly from cattle under 30 months – the baby beef Deputy Sheehan talked about – so we need to be in a position to supply this market.

Arrangements for intervention were also agreed this afternoon by the beef management committee. At my request flexibility was introduced into the arrangements for intervention. These arrangements will apply immediately following agreement at today's beef management committee meeting. The measures include changes to the type and weight of eligible animals and will be helpful in restoring stability to the uncertain market conditions currently prevailing.

The changes provide for an increase in the eligible weight of carcases going into intervention from the current level of 340 kg to 430 kg for the forthcoming two tenders. Thereafter, this will reduce to 380 kg. Crucially, cattle grading as 04 will be eligible for intervention under the new arrangements. The processing margin is also being increased from the current level of 10 to 14 per 100 kg. This is the equivalent of 5p per lb. The new arrangements apply immediately and the deadline for offers has been fixed for 19 December with adjudication following on 22 December. These changes to the intervention rules particularly suit Ireland in that they provide support for the majority of Irish cattle in terms of both grade and weight.

I have at all times been particularly concerned to ensure that adequate market support is available to Irish producers and the combination of these two measures – the purchase for destruction scheme and the more flexible intervention arrangements – should provide effective market support for the Irish beef industry in the difficult months ahead. The Commission has already increased export refunds and introduced a private storage aid scheme for cows in order to provide additional support to the market. The export refund changes, for example, are worth 5p per lb in the case of male beef and 9p per lb in the case of female beef, and should significantly improve the competitiveness of our exports on third country markets. The private storage scheme was introduced from 27 November and will run until 2 February 2001.

Bord Bia has been doing a superb promotional job and has been supported by our embassies in all the areas of the world where we do business. Deputy Stanton asked about the Egyptian situation. Senior officials of the Department and I have travelled to Egypt where I had a positive meeting with Dr. Wali, the Minister for Agriculture. He pointed out that there had been adverse publicity surrounding the BSE problem in Europe, a decision was taken against the EU and we were caught up in that. Despite the fact that this afternoon's news from Egypt is disappointing I am convinced that we will have the licences restored soon.

Farmers have lost out in the recent problems. I made a point of drawing this matter to the attention of the Council of Ministers at its recent meeting. The matter was also raised by the Taoiseach at the summit meeting at the weekend and he succeeded in substantially strengthening the Council's declaration. I am particularly pleased, therefore, that the Council has asked the Commission to examine the impact of the current market difficulties on the income of beef producers and to report back on the situation with appropriate proposals. The council has undertaken to act on any such proposals as a matter of urgency. I have also discussed the position during the past four weeks and as recently as yesterday with Commissioners Fischler and Byrne.

The advance payment has been increased from 60% to 80% . With modern technology and with the commitment of officials in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development who will work over weekends, we hope to make these payments before Christmas.

That is not compensation.

Not at all. I am referring to a decision that was taken today. We hope to get the payment out before Christmas. It will not be easy to do that.

That is money that was due anyway.

I do not disagree with the Deputy. I merely say a decision was taken today to increase the advances from 60% to 80%.

That is not compensation.

I did not say it was. I said a decision was taken today to increase the advances from 60% to 80%.

Will the Minister just say this is not compensation?

The challenge now is to ensure the payment is made before Christmas. With the help of Department officials that will be done.

Everything that can be done in relation to this matter is being done. I commend the motion, as amended, to the House.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development (Mr. N. O'Keeffe): Nothing in my record of actions as Minister of State or in relation to my compliance with law, be it the Ethics in Public Office Act, the Companies Act or the Taxes Consolidation Act, will be construed by any fair minded, reasonable person as an abuse of office, an attempt to gain from secrecy, fraud, negligence, recklessness or malicious or corrupt intent. I have not opened offshore accounts. I have not hidden behind the veil of incorporation or buried my business in foreign jurisdictions. I have not evaded tax and I did not use the tax amnesty. I have not sought favours nor abused in any way the powers vested in me. I have been open at all times about my interests.

It has not ever been a secret to Deputies and to the farming community that my family and I are farmers, and pig farmers in particular. They knew this long before the Ethics in Public Office Act came into force and they knew it at every moment I have spoken about agriculture in the House and elsewhere.

Deputies are mistaken if they believe the politics of the witch hunt can only work in one direction. Those who live by the sword die by it. I have not ever liked the politics of the witch hunt – heads in basket politics – and I know that view is shared by most Deputies. It is my turn now to be the subject of such politics. I take it as it comes but I do not believe this type of politics dignifies this House or wins much admiration or respect from the people.

I have, at all times, endeavoured to live up to the highest standards expected in public office to which all of us aspire and which we are now expected to achieve. I am giving my full co-operation to the Public Offices Commission. I have engaged lawyers out of my own pocket and I have instructed them to communicate on my behalf with the commission. If, following the conclusion of an investigation by the POC, violations are proved I will, at that time, accept my responsibilities.

I am writing to the Taoiseach, in the spirit of the Ethics in Public Office Act and the Cabinet handbook, to inform him of the interests of my spouse and my children, who are adults, even where no connection to my public duties has been, is or can be established.

I have instructed my solicitors to put into a blind trust all my shareholdings, all of which were set out in my declaration to the Public Offices Commission. I resigned all directorships when I became a Minister. I remained on a committee of a co-operative, Dairygold, which is not a plc. The committee had limited functions and I am now resigning from that committee also.

There is no reason the names of licensees should remain confidential. The licences no longer have a commercial value and the following are the names of the licensees: Ballysallagh Feeds Ltd, Ballysallagh, Kinsalebeg, County Waterford; Blackwater Feeds Ltd, Ballinaroone, Ballyduff, County Waterford; Matthewstown Milling Ltd, c/o Grenan Pig Farm, Kilmacthomas, County Waterford; Matthewstown Milling Ltd, Hilltop Pig Farm, Fenor County Waterford; Matthewstown Milling Ltd, Lower Pig Unit, County Waterford; Matthewstown Milling Ltd, Pig Fattening Unit, Fenor, County Waterford; Sladeville Ltd, Retagh, Carrick-on-Suir, County Waterford; Thomas Leahy, Birchgrove Farms, Johnstown, Castlebridge, County Wexford; Joseph Healy, Knoxtown, Clonroache, Enniscorthy, County Wexford; Ronan Farms, Rosegreen, Cashel, County Tipperary; Tara By-Products, Rosegreen, Cashel, County Tipperary; Ballylough Milling Ltd, Ballylough, Mitchelstown, County Cork; Ronan Farms, Ballyhooly, County Cork; Ronan Farms, Ballyhooley, County Cork; Ronan Farms, Glenasack, Glencullen, County Cork; Denis O'Riordan, West View Pig Farm, Coachford, County Cork; Mangle Milling Ltd, Annakiska, Doneraile, County Cork; Killicane Feeds Ltd, Mitchelstown, County Cork.

My family's farm fully complies with all health and food safety standards and intends to apply immediately for the quality assurance scheme and will take steps, if any, that may be necessary to comply with the enhanced quality assurance schemes which will come in the future.

Having been an active farmer, I honestly did not consider this minimal activity in relation to a family farm as being actively involved in its management. Every farmer in the country, and even some journalists, know that there is a lot more to active management of farming than signing cheques or being a debtor. They also know that, on a farm, it is much harder to separate the personal from the business, unlike a trading company but perhaps like a family pub or legal practice with which many Deputies will be familiar. Our farm was run like family businesses up and down the country.

I wish to deal with suggestions that the granting of licences to Ballylough Milling in respect of the purchase and incorporation into non-ruminant feed of meat and bonemeal, MBM, was in some way untoward. Deputies who have taken time to scrutinise the most recent register of Members' interests will acknowledge that I declared my shareholding in Ballylough Milling. I am a shareholder in the company but I am not a director. I have also clarified that the enterprise is operated by my son and that I have not been involved in day-to-day operations, although, as I said earlier, I have signed company cheques from time to time. My son, Pat, is the best known man in the country at this stage.

Ballylough Milling is the entity which carries out the milling and mixing of pig feed on the premises of the pig enterprise owned by my family. Over the years meat and bonemeal was incorporated into the feed, as was routine throughout the industry. Despite claims in the media, we do not mill it and have never done so. Our mill is purely to crush corn and mix, nothing more.

The incorporation of MBM into ruminant feed was banned in 1990. However, its incorporation into non-ruminant feed, that is for pigs and poultry, was allowed, subject to strict conditions which were further strengthened in 1996. These conditions included the requirement to hold a licence and were designed to ensure that feed containing MBM, which had been prepared for non-ruminants, did not enter the ruminant feed chain.

At the time, feeding meat and bonemeal was not considered an underhand, nefarious or even dangerous practice – something to be done in shame and to be hidden from the public. Since the State stipulated that farms could apply for and be granted licences to feed meat and bonemeal to pigs, this amounted to an endorsement at the time of the acceptability, within limits, of food health and safety of the practice. The situation has changed, and I accept that change. It applies to feed for all animals. I welcome anything that enhances consumer confidence in meat products.

Our farm went a route which was sanctioned by the State. If I am guilty of not ensuring that my family farm did not meet what was considered best practice – which would have required my very active involvement in the farm – then, equally, the State itself is guilty of not requiring best practice by law. We have debated such matters over the years in the House and not just in relation to meat and bonemeal. It is fair to say that the State does not take the view of perfection or nothing in relation to standards.

The Minister of State is supposed to be ensuring best practice. That is partly what he is paid for.

There are acceptable limits and a range within these limits. This has been seen to be the most practical way to go in the absence of perfect information and risk assessment in many areas. My family's farm operated within the then range of acceptable limits, and I do not believe that I or members of my family should face a hanging offence for doing so.

It should be noted that up to last week's ban, Denmark and Holland, two of Europe's biggest pig producers, routinely fed meat and bonemeal. It was also fed to hens in Holland which is one of the world's largest producers of eggs and exports 8.5 billion eggs.

My family and I have not breached any standards in relation to food safety or quality assurance. Unfounded claims have been made in the media. This controversy grew on a claim by a Sunday newspaper that our farm had signed up to a quality assurance scheme for which we are not eligible. In the original story that started a dirty-tricks affair, there were four errors in the first 400 words – almost a mistake per paragraph. Even though false allegations have been made about me and the papers know they are false—

Would the Minister of State give way for a moment?

It might help the Minister of State and save him a little trouble if I said we are prepared to take the text of his script, through which he is galloping, as read. Could he now answer the questions raised to which he does not refer in the text? For example, will he confirm that he is the Edmund O'Keeffe who bought £1.4 million of feedstuffs from Ballylough Milling in 1999? Why did he do so and what did he do with it? Will he explain why, on page 3 of his text, he talks about a minimal involvement in the farm business but on the final page states he had nothing to do with the farm business? Will he answer those questions as we will take the rest of the guff as read?

The Deputy should sit down.

We can read the text. There is no need for the Minister of State to strain himself. Will he answer the questions?

I have a script which I am trying to get through. I wish to confirm, as has been confirmed by Galtee Meats and Bord Bia, that we never sold pigs to Galtee under a quality assurance scheme.

We do not need to know how many hens are produced in Holland. The Minister of State should answer the questions or he should go.

I also had no hand, act or part in the awarding and refusal of the licences given since I became Minister of State. This has emerged because I received a representation from a constituent in relation to a refusal of a meat and bonemeal licence by the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development. A letter of representation returned by me has been construed by the media as my making a decision on the licence. All Deputies will recognise the letter for what it was. The licensing function is a day-to-day administrative function which is carried out by the Civil Service. It is not a political function.

That is what Ministers are for.

I now wish to go into the detail of the licensing process for Ballylough. Once the licensing requirements were introduced, it became necessary for Ballylough Milling to apply to the Department for the necessary licences. It was open to any other company which wished to purchase and use MBM to similarly apply to the Department.

In order that it will be clearly apparent that the processing of the company's application followed standard procedure and was free of any untoward influences, I wish to put on the record of the House the relevant details. On 6 November 1996, Ballylough Milling lodged its application with the Department. On 26 November 1996, following inspection of the premises by a Department inspector, that inspector recommended to his superiors refusal of the application on grounds of concerns relating to cross-contamination of ruminant feed. On 22 January 1997, an assistant principal officer in the Department wrote to my son, Pat O'Keeffe, who is a director of the company, refusing the application but advising him, as is standard procedure, of the right to make representations within 14 days. On or about 2 February 1997, my son, Pat O'Keeffe, on behalf of the company, wrote to the Department appealing the decision.

Smokescreen.

Between 2 February 1997 and 27 May 1997, departmental personnel at head office level and in the district veterinary office were involved in consideration of the appeal and in formulating recommendations. It should be noted that other cases were also being considered by the Department at this time – Ballylough Milling was not the only such case.

On 27 May 1997, a senior superintending veterinary inspector made recommendations in three cases, including that of Ballylough Milling, to a deputy chief veterinary officer. Between 12 June and 17 June 1997, the deputy chief veterinary officer in question indicated that he was agreeable to granting Ballylough Milling the licences it had sought, subject to certain conditions. It should be noted that this decision in principle was taken during the term of office of the previous Government. On 23 July 1997, this decision was endorsed at assistant secretary level. On 23 July 1997, a letter was issued by the Department conveying this decision.

Between 23 July 1997 and 19 September 1997, Ballylough Milling submitted to the Department various items of documentation in the context of satisfying the Department on meeting the conditions on which the licences would be issued. Finally, on 19 September 1997, two licences to purchase and to incorporate MBM were granted by the Department to Ballylough Milling Limited. The conditions under which these licences were granted to Ballylough Milling were similar to those applying to other licences and were exclusively motivated by preventing cross-contamination of pig and ruminant feed. There was no policy on the part of the Department to limit the number of licences granted, but such licences were granted only to those applicants who were able to satisfy the Department they could meet the conditions designed to ensure there would be no cross-contamination. The critical issue was to ensure that meat and bonemeal did not enter ruminant feed.

To any fair-minded observer this demonstrates definitively that the matter was dealt with in an entirely proper fashion, that it was at all times dealt with at official level and that I had no hand, act or part in any of the decisions relating to the granting of licences to the company.

Licences of this kind were granted for a period not exceeding 12 months. Accordingly, Ballylough Milling has had to apply for licences on a number of occasions since the events I have detailed. It has done so successfully, undergoing the inspections which are a normal part of such processes. The most recently issued licence expired on 24 November last. An application for new licences was submitted to the Department but, in light of decisions taken at the recent EU Council of Agriculture Ministers' meeting, the Department is now to implement a ban on the feeding of MBM to all farm animals and licences will not, therefore, be granted. In common with other enterprises which, entirely legitimately and in accordance with their licences, have been purchasing and using MBM for non-ruminant feeds, Ballylough Milling will now have to cease using MBM and move to alternative sources of protein for animal feed.

I now wish to explain the situation regarding the Bord Bia quality assurance scheme. The Bord Bia pigmeat quality assurance scheme is a voluntary initiative set up in 1989 and is designed to support the marketing and promotion of Irish pigmeat. Since January 1998, the operation of the scheme specifically requires that MBM is not fed to pigs being processed under the scheme. A six-month transition period was allowed for the necessary arrangements to be put in place at farm level.

The pig farm owned by my family was inspected for potential participation in the quality assurance scheme on 5 May 1998 and the use of MBM, in accordance with licence, was noted by the independent farm inspector. Accordingly, the farm was precluded by Galtee Meats from supplying pigmeat under the quality assurance scheme.

Bord Bia has confirmed it carried out a detailed on-site review at the Galtee plant. This review has revealed no evidence that pigs from the farm owned by my family have been processed under the quality assurance scheme. Compliance with the provisions of the scheme is enforced by regular audits undertaken by independent approved auditors and I understand that Galtee Meats has consistently met the requirements of this scheme.

Plants that are members of the Bord Bia quality assurance scheme may source pigs that have been fed meat and bonemeal but must have in place a traceability system which ensures that those pigs are segregated and are not processed under the Bord Bia quality assurance scheme. The facts are that pigs from my family's farm are not now, and have not been, accepted into the Bord Bia scheme operating in Galtee.

I would now like to clarify the role of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development with regard to requests under the Freedom of Information Act related to the use of MBM. In June and July 1999, the Department processed three requests under the Act seeking access to certain information, including a list of all persons or companies licensed by the Department to purchase and/or use mammalian MBM. Having examined the requests, the Department was of the opinion that, while the records contained commercially sensitive information, it was in the public interest to release the information. As required under the Act, the Department notified the licence holders that it intended to release the information and advised them, as is required, of their right to appeal this decision to the Office of the Information Commissioner.

A number of parties, including Ballylough Milling, objected to the release of information. Three of them, including Ballylough Milling, lodged appeals – as is their right – with the Information Commissioner in September 1999. Under the provisions of the Act, the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development is unable to release the records concerned pending the outcome of these appeals. The first occasion on which I became aware that objections/appeals had been made in this matter was as result of recent media coverage. I also want to make it clear that I played no part in decisions relating to the release or otherwise of any of the information which had been requested. As I said earlier, I also do not agree that this information should be withheld further and I have gone on the record of the Dáil earlier this evening.

Where is the bit that was left out on page three?

Let the Minister reply without interruption.

The quality of Irish food was always known to be of an excellent standard and, as Minister of State, I was concerned the existing assurance schemes lacked the independent accreditation structures that would give it international credibility.

The expert group I established has produced clear-cut and definitive mechanisms for achieving the assurance that Irish food deserves. Its report will be available to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development shortly. All sectors of the industry were represented on this group from primary producers to processors and retailers and the State agencies.

Food quality and food safety have separate structures in the system. However, this expert group has determined that any food quality scheme must incorporate food safety components, even though the remit for safety lies with another Department. I welcome this recommendation.

The group is chaired by Professor Joe Buckley of University College Cork and also includes representatives of consumers, the industry and farming groups. I understand the group has completed its deliberations and is expected to present its report shortly.

Last week it was suggested in a debate in the Seanad that I was blocking the publication of a report, which, as will now be apparent, I have yet to receive. I trust the foregoing will dispose of that suggestion.

I wish to assure the House I have, at all times, carefully and conscientiously discharged my responsibilities as Minister of State with responsibility for food. The first and central allegation made against me was that my farm was a participant in the quality assurance scheme. That allegation was false, as has been confirmed by Bord Bia and Galtee. The claims then moved on to a possible conflict of interest. I had no hand, act or part in the application by Ballylough Milling for a licence, which was above board and fully legal.

Attitudes to the use of meat and bonemeal have changed dramatically in recent weeks. The main focus has always been preventing the feeding of this product to cattle and sheep. The Council of Ministers last week imposed a total ban on a temporary basis and acknowledged it was being done for control reasons and not for scientific reasons. The position of Ballylough Milling, notwithstanding the freedom of information position, was known in farming circles. Given the way events have moved, I acknowledge it would have been better if Ballylough Milling did not avail of its legal right to have a licence. Therefore, no conflict, perceived or otherwise, could have arisen. In any event, this practice has ended. I have already indicated that I have no involvement in the day to day running of the farm and I equally accept it would have been better if this situation had been totally clear. I have been involved in agriculture all my life and I am a passionate believer in the development of the food industry and in the role of high standards and good quality.

Deputy Dukes was well aware that I was a member of the IFA when he was an economist and we had many meetings in the Metropole Hotel in Cork. I hope he enjoys the drinks at the Fine Gael reception tonight and I wish him well.

Dr. Upton

I wish to share my time with Deputies Howlin and Penrose.

Acting Chairman

That is agreed.

Dr. Upton

I welcome much of what the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development told us this evening in terms of upgrading the safeguards and measures to deal with BSE. Identification of the emergence of BSE was never going to be easy for a number of reasons. It has a long incubation period. It tends to strike down a single animal in a herd and this is still the pattern. It produces clinical signs that resemble other conditions and can only be identified after the animal is slaughtered. While criticisms of the system are many, it should be remembered there were specific problems associated with BSE that had not been previously encountered.

The debate on BSE has moved on from the need for a ban on meat and bonemeal for pig feed. This has been overtaken by the decision by the Council of Ministers to impose a six months ban on the feeding of meat and bonemeal to any farm animals in Europe, commencing in January. This in itself raises other questions in relation to the use of the pigs that are currently being fed meat and bonemeal. What happens to the product? What happens to the meat and bonemeal currently held by the licence holders? What will happen to the meat and bonemeal over the next six months? What longer term plans are being considered for the disposal of the meat and bonemeal should the ban remain in place? The time to discuss and address this is now and not in six months' time when another crisis will be on our hands, if there is no contingency plan in place. Two weeks ago I called for a complete ban on meat and bonemeal, and I reiterate that this evening.

When the subject was debated in the House two weeks ago, the Minister of State, Deputy Moffatt, spoke about the need for integrated systems of quality assurance, specifically noting that the quality assurance systems related to farm gate to fork. This is one of the problems, particularly relating to BSE, the system being at the farm gate, not inside the farm. During the national beef assurance scheme debate the Labour Party argued for a completely integrated process from farm to fork, thus including that part of the chain that is now under scrutiny because of BSE, which is within the farm. That part of the food safety chain is still under the banner of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, it is not within the remit of the Food Safety Authority. Meat and bonemeal are monitored by the Department, not by the Food Safety Authority, as farm inspections are also within the remit of the Department. This again raises the validity of agriculture and food being a shared responsibility and the need to define unequivocally where responsibility for food safety rests. I again call for a complete review of those responsibilities.

The Department has admitted there is no central record of inspections carried out by the district veterinary offices on the use of meat and bonemeal, as such inspections are invariably combined with other duties concerning disease prevention. While the level and quality of the inspection may well be adequate, it does not inspire confidence in the present climate. For an issue that has generated so much controversy, it surely would have been appropriate to hold a separate record of such inspections, in particular since 1996.

The BSE debate has raised the question of the value of quality assurance schemes and their implementation and management. I said during the last debate that quality assurance schemes are effective only if they are underpinned in law. There is no penalty for supplying a product of an inferior standard to a processor, while operating within a quality scheme, other than the penalty selected or chosen by the purchaser of the product. The quality mark is meaningless in that case unless it is totally transparent and traceable. Quality systems are often no more than marketing tools, which will fast lose credibility if they are not properly managed and seen to be so.

The Bord Bia quality assurance scheme is a voluntary initiative between Bord Bia and the pigmeat industry designed to underpin the marketing and promotion of Irish pigmeat. The principle of the quality scheme is good, in that, it anticipated consumer concerns and, accordingly, included a provision excluding from the scheme pigs fed with meat and bonemeal, but for quality systems to have any meaning, they must be legally binding, accountable and open to independent audit.

When the meat and bonemeal ban was introduced initially, there was no sense of urgency and there was a fundamental misunderstanding of the mode of infection by BSE. What is of considerable concern with hindsight is the fact that many animals, which may have been sub-clinical, would no doubt have entered the food chain and been slaughtered without exhibiting any overt symptoms.

The scientific view at present is that pigs are not naturally susceptible to BSE. In August 1990, experimental transmission of BSE to a pig by injection of infectious material into the brain was carried out. The lesson and the assumptions in relation to cattle and BSE should not be lost on us in relation to pigs. Species is an uncertain and unreliable barrier for the transmission of BSE. Strain typing of mice reveals that the disease patterns produced by the agents causing BSE and variant CJD are identical. We should not lose sight of the fundamental concern implicit in this debate, the risk to humans of new variant CJD.

The single most important unanswered question about the BSE epidemic is whether BSE might become endemic in sheep. Research in this area is ongoing and very important to future recommendations in relation to BSE. I have raised again what I consider to be fundamental questions that need to be addressed openly about BSE and our lack of knowledge of the subject.

Simple ante mortem and post mortem tests for BSE would have been of great practical value. This is an area of research that has to be pursued vigorously. The tests that are available, while useful, are limited. The question that now has to be answered is whether testing of all animals is worthwhile or whether a more radical approach should be taken, whereby all animals of a certain age are culled. Reliance on a test is limited by its sensitivity and any factors that will influence its effectiveness. Among the limitations is the fact that the test is post mortem only. It will not detect sub-clinical animals. All that can be said by way of assurance is the test has been carried out and the result was negative. The limits of that assertion need to be appreciated before any extrapolations are made from it. It is no guarantee the animal is not harbouring BSE and might become clinical at some later stage. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. However, despite the limitations that have been identified, the test gives some measure of reassurance and it should be used for purposes of screening positive animals, in particular as the test result becomes available within 24 hours. However, the limitation of the test lends a sense of urgency to finding a test that detects positive animals pre-mortem and also detects sub-clinical cases.

The disposal of specified risk material and infected animal carcases will not go away. The numbers continue to increase and no doubt with increased testing the number will increase further. As Deputy Dukes said, it is not tenable to continue to hold carcases in cold storage indefinitely and the need for incineration must be addressed. There is no simple solution to the disposal of infected carcases. The options are very limited and best practice, with state of the art technology, should serve to ensure safe disposal of infected carcases. The alternatives to incineration have already been firmly rejected.

We like to adhere to the principle of quality Irish produce. Implicit in that assumption is that the food is truly Irish. I have referred already to the business of labelling and the subtle use of language to imply that a product is in fact of Irish origin, when in reality it has been imported and packaged in Ireland. It requires very careful study of the label to determine that the product was not of Irish origin. This is overtly misleading while legally correct. It is possible, for example, to buy a pack of rashers with a well known Irish brand name only to discover that the product has been produced outside Ireland and packaged here by the company. While the company is technically within the law, consumers are the losers in that they believe they are purchasing a product produced, processed and packaged in Ireland and made with Irish ingredients. It should be mandatory to have clear, unambiguous labelling identifying the country of origin. That applies not only to Irish products but to imports. At least then the consumer has no illusions about the origins of the product.

A further aspect of labelling and traceability is that it is possible for a processor to buy in pig carcases from another country, process the carcase here and then label the product as Irish. Surely this makes a mockery of any quality scheme and is an insult to the consumer, who believes that they are buying a completely different product. The sooner we get around to applying country of origin labels to all foods the better.

The role of the Government in risk management is primarily to reduce risk to a level that should be acceptable to the consumer. There is no such thing as zero risk, for the reasons I have covered in the previous debate, nor can we ever assure zero risk. It is not possible to prove the absence of something. The best we can say is: "It cannot be detected or it has not been detected." Detection depends on the efficiency and sensitivity of the test method. If the test is not the right test or is not sufficiently sensitive, then it is possible that the material being tested for will not be detected.

The policy of openness is by far the most effective when dealing with risk management. It is not wise to appear to have all the answers in a situation of uncertainty. Food scares thrive on the belief that those in charge are withholding information but if doubts are openly expressed and publicly explored, the public is capable of responding rationally and is much more likely to respond positively. In order to establish credibility it is important to build trust, which can only be established by openness. This in turn requires that there is recognition of uncertainty. Communication of this uncertainty is not easy against a background of assurances that have not materialised in the case of BSE and other food scares. A remote risk to human health was the basis of the continuing response to BSE in the UK but time, unfortunately, has proved different.

Whatever tests are applied, it should be remembered that testing will not change the quality or safety of any product. It will simply tell us, depending on the sensitivity of the test, how good or bad the product is. The message to take from the BSE debate is that prevention is the key to safe, good quality food. The finished product is only as good as the raw materials from which it was made.

Consumer confidence has been shattered by the BSE scare and the agriculture industry has been seriously damaged by the fall-out, some of it because of the behaviour of other countries. The task now is to restore confidence at home and abroad, by openness, accountability and best practice in the production, processing and handling of food.

The disclosures of the past two weeks regarding the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, Deputy Ned O'Keeffe, raise questions of the utmost seriousness, not just for the Minister of State but also for the Taoiseach. It is not perhaps surprising that the Minister, Deputy O'Keeffe, should have sought to duck and weave and avoid the central issues involved here but what is even more alarming is that the Taoiseach should have been complicit in trying to obscure the issues involved and that he should have once again failed to live up to the standards that the people have a right to expect of any Taoiseach.

Because of the seriousness of the issues concerned and because of the total abdication of responsibility, I move the following amendment to the Government's amendment No. 1 to the Fine Gael motion:

After the words ‘scientific developments' to add the following:

"and pending the outcome of the investigation by the Public Offices Commission resolves that Deputy Ned O'Keeffe be suspended from his position as Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture and Food".

If the Minister, Deputy O'Keeffe, had been a Minister in an Administration in any other democracy in Europe he would have gone within a matter of hours of the original disclosures. If he had been a Minister of State in any Irish Government, other than a Fianna Fáil dominated one, he would also have been out of office at least a week ago.

Like most other people, I was shocked to read two weeks ago that the Minister of State with responsibility for overseeing the food sector, the man charged by the House and the people with ensuring food quality, was the joint owner of a farm which had been involved in feeding meat and bonemeal to pigs. This is the same Minister of State who in November 1997 launched a new code of practice for the pig industry and who warned that: "pig producers must never lose sight of the fact that consumers and buyers of pigmeat for major retailers and catering establishments are now seeking only top quality products."

While there may not have been anything illegal about the feeding of meat and bonemeal to pigs on the O'Keeffe farm, is it really the sort of example that we want from our Minister of State for food quality, having regard to the level of public concern about BSE and the impact of meat and bonemeal in this instance in Britain for several years? Any attempts by the Minister of State to suggest that he does not have any day to day role in the operation of the farm are not backed up by the facts. If that is the case why is it that he is reported to have until recently signed cheques for the farm? If that is the case, why is it that receipts for consignments of pigs for as recently as July 1999 were still in the name of Deputy O'Keeffe? What sort of standing or credibility does the Minister of State have when he sits down with other Ministers for food in the EU to discuss food quality matters, especially when the question of consumer confidence in pork products comes up? I suggest none at all.

The disclosure that the Minister of State was involved in the feeding of meat and bonemeal would on its own have provided a compelling case for his removal from office. However, his failure to disclose his interests as required under the Ethics in Public Office Act and the Government's Cabinet guidelines renders it inconceivable that he should remain in office. Let us look at the facts.

The Diseases of Animals (Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy) (No. 2) Order, 1996, is made under the Diseases of Animals Acts, 1966 to 1996. The purpose of the order is to introduce a restrictive and regulated regime relating to the manu facture, purchase and use as animal feed of mammalian meat and bonemeal in order to combat the spread of BSE. Article 6 of the order restricts the possession and use of mammalian meat and bonemeal, except in accordance with a licence granted by the Minister for Agriculture. The Minister of State's family farm, his interests in which are registered under section 5 of the Ethics in Public Office Act, has such a licence and is, accordingly, entitled to feed bonemeal to pigs. It appears that there are only 17 such licences in the State and freedom of information requests have not, up to now, made the Minister disclose the holders of those licences but with the pressure he is now under he has disclosed them to the House tonight. Did he discuss that with the licence holders or his justification for not disclosing them earlier?

The Labour Party Private Members' motion debated on 29 and 30 November last called for a ban on the feeding of bonemeal to all animals. The effect of the motion then, if carried into effect, would undoubtedly have been to revoke the licences and the financial benefit which they conferred. The Offical Report shows that the Minister of State both spoke and voted on the Labour Party motion. At no stage did he declare his interest in its outcome. It is of course the case that, while the Minister of State had registered his interest in the farm, the annual registration requirements do not extend to a requirement to register his licence holding in meat and bonemeal but that the possession of such a licence amounted to a material interest in the context of proceedings on this motion in the Dáil must now be clear.

It is quite clear that there was a responsibility on the Minister of State that at a time when material effect would be made by a Dáil decision on a Labour Party motion it was incumbent on him to divulge that information to the Dáil. That is an essential part of the ethics legislation we have accepted for ourselves as the standard we must apply. The fact that the Minister of State either does not understand or has evaded those responsibilities does not mean that those of us who want to point that out to him are witchhunting, as he implied when speaking. We are demanding that the standards that this House accepted for itself are understood by the Members and complied with by everyone. Mistakes can be made but there must be consequences. If a material interest is to accrue to an individual by virtue of a decision of the House there is a legal requirement for that to be disclosed in the context of that debate, either if the Member is going to vote or certainly if the Member is going to contribute. That was not done in this case.

These matters will be adjudicated on by the Public Offices Commission but the Labour Party feels that in the context of the critical issues at stake here, public confidence not only in this State but internationally in our food industry, the person charged with food quality in the State must be beyond reproach. For those reasons it is important that the Minister of State accepts the responsibilities now demanded of him.

Debate adjourned.
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