Private Members' Business. - Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy: Motion (Resumed). – Dáil Éireann (28th Dáil) – Wednesday, 13 Dec 2000

Private Members' Business. - Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Dukes on Tuesday, 12 December 2000.

"That Dáil Éireann:

conscious of the new and greater difficulties for Irish farmers resulting from the detection of BSE in continental EU member states;

wishing to counter the serious consequences which this will have for con sumers, farm families, workers in the food processing industry and the fabric of rural society and communities;

noting the recent estimate by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development that the cost of testing cattle is approximately IR£25 per head;

noting with concern the compromised position of the Government in international export markets due to recent revelations regarding the Minister of State, Deputy Ned O'Keeffe, in hisresponsibilities for food quality and safety;

calls on the Government to take immediate action:

to provide for immediate testing of all beef animals entering the food chain;

to secure the best possible valuation for animals for destruction under the EU scheme;

to institute immediately a direct income support scheme for affected beef producers, in the context of a common, EU-wide scheme and, in particular, for farmers wholly or mainly dependent on beef for their income;

to provide for the construction of an incineration plant to dispose of the carcases of all animalstaken out of the national herd as a consequence of the eradication programme;

to put in place a certification system under which certified, tested BSE-free beef can be sold to domestic and export customers;

to ensure that all of this action is clearly placed in the context of common EU measures; and

to ensure that Bord Bia adopts an energetic and innovative market promotion of certified tested BSE-free Irish beef."

Amendment No. 1 was moved by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"recognising the need to protect public health and reinforce consumer confidence;

conscious of the new and greater difficulties for Irish farmers resulting from the detection of BSE in continental EU member states;

wishing to counter the serious consequences which this could have for farm families, workers in the food processing industry and the fabric of rural society and communities;

noting the recent decisions at EU level in particular in regard to testing, animal feed and the purchase of cattle for destruction;

and noting the statement and clarification by the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, Deputy Ned O'Keeffe; supports the Government's actions:

to safeguard the integrity and safety of Irish beef by implementing stringent controls to protect consumer health and to eradicate BSE from the cattle population,

to implement the further decisions that have been taken recently at EU level,

to encourage the implementation of appropriate arrangements in association with the industry to deal with animal waste and other material from the livestock sector,

to pursue the provision of appropriate EU market and support arrangements to assist livestock producers affected by the market situation,

to ensure that all the relevant agencies continue to adopt an energetic and innovative approach to the promotion of Irish beef and cattle, and

to keep the matter under review in the light of scientific developments.".

Debate resumed on amendment to amendment No. 1:

After the words ‘scientific developments' to add the following:

"and pending the outcome of the investigation by the Public Offices Commission resolves that Deputy Ned O'Keeffe be suspended from his position as Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development".

–(Deputy Howlin).

Mr. Quinn

I wish to share time with Deputies Penrose and McGrath.

It has been another bad couple of days for politics, another two days of indifference on the part of the Taoiseach. Last night the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development refused to answer the charges made against him. We still have not heard the reason he failed to disclose that a farm in which he had a financial interest was licensed to feed meat-and-bone meal to pigs while the Dáil was considering banning that practice. Nothing ends a witch hunt like the truth.

Minister of State O'Keeffe told the House his Department was precluded under law from making known the 17 meat-and-bone meal licences, and then promptly did so. He told the House he was writing to the Taoiseach to make known to him family interests which, he says, go beyond those required by law. However, for three years he seems to have failed to inform the Taoiseach that his family farm benefited considerably from a scheme, limited to 17 farms and administered and policed by the very section of the Department in respect of which powers were formally delegated to him.

It is fortunate for him that the Taoiseach is so blindly indifferent to these matters. A Member of this House who has, for months, obstructed a tribunal of inquiry established by this House to examine the behaviour of the former Fianna Fáil Minister and his colleagues, may not be a member of the Fianna Fáil Party but he remains a member of the Fianna Fáil club. The Taoiseach continues to draw money from the parliamentary allowance for Deputy Lawlor and Deputy Lawlor continues to avail of Fianna Fáil facilities in the new building.

The ultimate irony is that the Minister of State's contribution to the debate last night started by suggesting he was not guilty of any serious offences, such as holding an offshore account. And who had Fianna Fáil nominated to sit in the Chair at that time? Deputy Denis Foley. This is GUBU of a new generation. Unlike Taoisigh of old, this one is quite prepared to stand idly by. As he does so, the reputation of us all, as well as his own, falls further into the mire.

Deputy O'Keeffe has not even defended himself against the charges made against him. Of course we knew he was a farmer. What we did not know – and what we were entitled to know – is that his business, in which he admits to having an interest, stood to lose £150,000, according to newspapers, from a decision of this House on a Labour Party Private Members' motion. It is as simple as that.

The fact that the public offices commission is investigating a complaint does not and should not absolve the Taoiseach of his responsibility. Has he learned nothing from past experience? Has he even asked Deputy O'Keeffe about the issue in the last week or has he, as was the case with Deputies Burke, Ellis, Foley and Lawlor, simply waited for others to do the hard work for him?

The Labour Party gets no joy from the amendment tabled this evening but it is required if this House is to have any self respect. Members of this House on the Committee of Public Accounts spent months getting to the truth about how laws made in this House were avoided and ignored. Is it any wonder our laws are not being taken seriously when we, and the Taoiseach in particular, are not prepared to enforce those now in place and which the Taoiseach proclaims in newspaper articles. Standards were expected of Members of this House before we formalised them into laws. The Taoiseach has been around long enough to know that. However, it compounds his sin, now that laws are in place, that he seems to want no hand, act or part in enforcing them. That is why the Labour Party amendment requires the support of the House this evening.

Mr. Penrose

Consumer confidence is inextricably linked with ensuring farmers regain market share as soon as possible. Tonight's discussion raises significant questions regarding BSE and the management of the crisis for farmers, meat processors and consumers.

I reiterate what my colleague, Deputy Upton, said last night when she referred to the question of the value of quality assurance schemes and their implementation and management. Such quality assurance schemes are effective only if they are underpinned by law and contained within a statutory framework. They are of no use unless penalties can be imposed, as a mandatory and not a discretionary measure, for supplying products of an inferior standard to a processor. There is no use in a processor deciding to impose sanctions when he chooses. Unless penalties are underpinned by law they are a whitewash. Quality systems will lose credibility if they are not properly managed and seen to be so. They must be monitored effectively by inspectors.

Until now, carcases purchased in any country could be processed here and labelled as Irish. Who is fooling who? Is it not the consumer who is being fooled?

The future well-being of 100,000 beef farmers whose livelihoods are under threat must be secured. I am especially concerned about the future of beef fatteners and beef finishers. I spoke about this matter three weeks ago but little has been done to date. I was astonished that the budget failed to put an appropriate contingency fund in place to provide the necessary compensation for farmers whose income has been decimated and who are in the throes of a crisis not of their own making. The budget was a poor day for rural Ireland, and for the farming community and its beef sector in particular. The increase of 0.1% to 4.3% of the farmers' flat rate of VAT refund from 1 January was a miserable sop to the farming community and showed extraordinary callousness and indifference to the well documented plight of beef producers and particularly beef finishers.

Farmers are entitled to compensation, especially as this crisis has occurred because individual member states such as France and Germany refused to put in place appropriate BSE control measures in 1996. Surely these countries did not think BSE stopped at borders. The crisis should have been tackled at EU level as a trans-frontier issue. Were figures for BSE concealed in other countries? Was Irish beef discriminated against by these countries? I have no doubt it was. Renationalisation has taken place. We do not have a level playing field. The common market is a farce and the Irish farmer is suffering as a result.

Have we suffered because of the low prices being paid to farmers over the years? Do our prices compare unfavourably with those paid to the French? We need only look at the difference between the destruction schemes in various countries. Compensation should be demanded at EU level and member states which are found to be negligent in relation to BSE measures should be forced to foot the bill. The compensation paid must reflect the actual level of loss, now running at between £100 and £120 per animal. Livestock to the value of almost £1 billion has been eliminated in three weeks.

It was a major mistake to agree to the capping of the budget at EU level, especially as the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs were fully aware of the difficulties in the midst of the negotiations in Nice. The farming organisations are also aghast at the import of the destruction policy agreed at the beef management committee which sees the French gaining at least 30% more per head for similar type cattle. Where does this leave the common market? Where are the farmers in all of this? We are suffering again because we are too good Europeans. The French and others who have pursued policies of renationalisation have benefited more in the negotiations than we have. Britain has spent almost £3.5 billion on dealing with the BSE problem and has recouped about 40% of that amount.

We must be granted compensation at European level. We will have to spend Exchequer money. We are faced with a huge bill for finished cattle, a cow killed is halved in value and live exports are down by almost two thirds. There is still a demand for cattle under 30 months. A proper compensation scheme must be put in place. The current destruction scheme is not favourable to Irish farmers. For winter farmers in particular, the only way is to pay a top-up of £100 per head.

Mr. McGrath

I thank the Labour Party for allowing me to contribute to this debate. I agree with Deputy Penrose's comment on the fate which besets beef farmers. Many beef farmers are facing annihilation and are not going to be able to cope with the prices they paid for cattle and the cost involved in finishing them. One farmer told me he is likely to suffer a loss of £65,000 this winter which will mean destruction. Another farmer told me he is getting out of beef farming. This individual has a substantial farm but stated he had been stung so often he was not going back into beef farming.

A number of measures need to be taken. The compensation package must be agreed. Today farmers asked me where the Minister was yesterday when the figure of 83p per pound was agreed for Irish farmers, whereas their French counterparts are getting £1 per pound. Where was the Minister, what happened to him and why was he not fighting their case?

What about the marketing of Irish beef? When the testing procedure is implemented surely we will be in a position to strongly market our beef as clean, BSE-free and so on. What about imported beef? We sometimes think that Ireland only exports beef, but the figures issued in recent years show this is not the case. For example, last year we imported 7,700 tonnes of beef, of which 55% came from the Britain which is riddled with BSE. To date this year we imported 6,500 tonnes of beef, of which 3,164 tonnes, almost 50%, came from Britain. Some of the beef imported came from France which is the root of this problem. How can we expect farmers to abide by certain standards when imports are totally different and come from countries which may not have these controls? The French beef was not subject to these controls.

Mr. Kirk

This is a most important debate. It would be difficult to find a more important or pressing issue for the agriculture industry than the current problem being experienced by the beef industry. There has been a serious erosion of consumer confidence in the integrity and quality of Irish beef because of the perception that we have a BSE problem.

Ireland has done more than any other country in the EU to tackle this problem and to reassure consumers of the integrity of the meat we are placing on the market. I was a Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture in the late 1980s when the then Minister, Deputy O'Kennedy, initiated the process under which herds in which a BSE-infected animal was found were slaughtered. Many in the industry felt the measure was excessive but time has vindicated Deputy O'Kennedy's decision. Apart from tackling the problem, the measure was very much about reassuring consumers of the integrity, quality and well-being of Irish meat.

It is important that spokespersons for the various political parties realise that, in conjunction with the Minister, and irrespective of the party to which they belong, they have a responsibility to the beef industry to contribute in any way possible and, more importantly, to ensure the wording of their Private Members' motions do not undermine consumer confidence in Irish meat and beef. The veterinary regime applied in Ireland is the most rigorous and responsive in the EU but we are failing to get this message across.

There is no doubt we have a minor difficulty with BSE. RTE cannot take credit for its treatment of the problem of BSE as its news coverage regularly shows footage of a staggering cow to portray the problem. This undermines the confidence of consumers in the integrity of Irish meat. It is time the producers of RTE's news programmes examined their responsibilities in this issue.

Many of the theoretical farmers do not appreciate the practical difficulties faced by real farmers in rearing cattle. When one gets down to the economics of beef production one sees that, by its nature, it is a marginal activity. If Deputy Dukes did not contribute to the debate I am sure he will do so later, but he would agree that, by its nature, beef farming is a marginal business.

Mr. Dukes

I proposed the motion. The Deputy would not be speaking on it without me.

Mr. Kirk

Any negative comments made in this House will contribute enormously to making the industry more marginal. I would like to see a situation where the various spokespersons would say to the Minister and his Ministers of State that they are here to support them, that they appreciate the measures being put in place and the difficulties the Ministers face in the context of the EU.

Mr. Crawford

That was not done in 1995.

Mr. Dukes

It is a pity Deputy Kirk was not in the House last night.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Hayes)

Please allow Deputy Kirk to conclude.

Mr. Dukes

The Deputy should not criticise what he has not heard.

Mr. Kirk

I have listened to the Deputy at length on this subject and I wish his contributions in the House were more positive. The Deputy should be more supportive of the Minister's endeavours to tackle the problem head-on and reassure consumers in Ireland and abroad.

Mr. Stanton

We have been very positive.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Kirk should address his remarks through the Chair.

Mr. Kirk

My remarks are not intended as a slight on the Chair.

Mr. Dukes

It would be more to the point if the Deputy addressed Irish farmers.

Mr. Kirk

I am addressing Irish farmers but I am trying to eradicate the negative contributions made on the subject in this House.

Mr. Dukes

We are not happy with the Minister.

Acting Chairman

Order.

Mr. Dukes

The Minister's amendment agrees with my motion. The Minister agrees with me.

Acting Chairman

I ask Deputy Kirk to give way as his time is up.

Mr. Dukes

Deputy Kirk would do more for farmers if he read the motion.

Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Dr. Moffatt)

As Minister of State with responsibility for food safety, my primary concern is public health and the safety of food consumed by the public. Therefore, I am concerned about the public health implications of BSE and any risk it poses to humans. The protection of the public's health has to be of paramount importance and it is only when the public has been reassured that its interests are being protected that the confidence of consumers will be restored.

Since 1996 we have been aware of the link between BSE in cows and the new variant CJD, commonly known as VCJD, in humans. Experimental evidence indicates that VCJD and BSE are caused by the same agent. Brain tissue from VCJD patients show similar features to those of animals experimentally infected with the BSE agent. As regards the source of new variant CJD infection, the most likely explanation is the ingestion by humans of BSE-contaminated food, prior to the implementation of the ban on specified bovine offal infected with the BSE agent.

With the amount of attention BSE has received in the media and in different public fora in recent months, it is important to distinguish between trade interests and initiatives needed to protect the health of consumers. The feeding of contaminated meat-and-bone-meal to ruminants precipitated this unprecedented outbreak of spongiform encephalopathy in cattle. A key step in the control of any communicable disease, is the separation of the infected agent from the susceptible host. In the case of cattle, this means an effective meat-and-bone-meal ban and for humans it is the removal of potentially infected material from the food chain. In infected animals the infected agent is found in the brain and spinal cord and several other specified risk tissues. Their exclusion from the human food chain is a key control step. Eating meat is not the risk, the risk is in eating infected meat, which is most likely to be meat containing nervous tissue. A practice used to exist in the meat industry of mechanically recovering meat from carcases after conventional butchery techniques could remove no more meat. This practice, now banned, was common in the UK but not in Ireland. This mechanically recovered meat would have contained nervous tissue and was included in the manufacture of processed meats, burgers and pies. There are currently over 80 cases of new variant CJD in the UK's population of 54 million.

Irish people could have been exposed to infected material through: living in the UK during the high risk time in the mid-1980s to mid-1990s; eating contaminated products when visiting the UK; eating UK meat products, particularly those containing mechanically recovered meat imported into Ireland prior to the ban on UK meat in 1996; or eating contaminated products arising from Irish cattle.

In Ireland we have a cattle epidemic only. Currently there is no test that can indicate if a human or an animal is incubating the disease. It is not scientifically possible to confirm that beef is BSE-free. Zero risk does not exist and the consumer must be so informed. However, the Enfer test is an additional risk reduction measure.

There is no evidence that BSE has been transmitted to humans via medicines or cosmetics which used bovine material in their preparation, via transplants, surgical instruments or blood transfusions, however, these routes of transmission cannot be discounted.

Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development statistics indicate that all identified BSE cases are in animals born in 1996 or before. Given that BSE has an incubation period of between two years and ten years, that would indicate that the meat-and-bone-meal feeding ban to ruminants has been effective since 1996. The key control measure for preventing the spread of the agent to humans is the exclusion of SRMs from the human food chain. Given that we are not sure that the exclusion of SRMs is an absolute guarantee that all infection is removed and given that we know that there is not 100% compliance with the SRM controls, I welcome the opportunity the EU purchase and destruction scheme presents for the exclusion of animals born in 1996 or before from the food chain as an additional consumer protection measure.

Young animals born after 1996 which have never eaten meat-and-bone-meal are as safe to eat as beef has ever been. Ireland is one of the few member states that managed to confine BSE to the older age groups. BSE is a problem for all the people of Ireland and consumers will be best served if the purchase for destruction scheme is used to maximise public health gain. I fully realise that beef farmers have serious difficulties. Nevertheless, any support strategy for farmers must be separated from the consumer protection initiatives that are needed.

The Department of Health and Children has undertaken consumer health initiatives in the broader context of CJD. First, to be in a position to respond rapidly and in an appropriate manner to the issue of CJD, the Minister for Health and Children established a CJD advisory group in September 1996. Second, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland established a scientific sub-committee specially to examine BSE. This sub-committee is chaired by Professor Michael Gibney who is chair of one of the EU advisory committees on BSE. Third, a CJD surveillance system has been set up. Surveillance of CJD is a priority in order to establish the true incidence of the disease and to determine any changes in the pattern or nature of its occurrence. Fourth, a CJD research programme was established. In Europe, the importance of research into CJD-BSE was recognised at an early stage and the EU established a specific research programme. This dealt with the diagnosis, epidemiological surveillance, prevention and control of BSE-CJD.

CJD is a notifiable disease.

Mr. O'Kennedy

How much more time does the Minister of State have?

Acting Chairman

He has two minutes remaining—

Mr. Dukes

If he stops when he is supposed to.

Acting Chairman

—and he will be followed by Deputies O'Kennedy, Ó Caoláin and O'Malley.

Dr. Moffatt

Since November 1996 CJD has been a notifiable disease under the infectious diseases regulations.

Mr. O'Malley

That puts me in my place.

Acting Chairman

Once again it does. Let us hear the Minister of State without interruption.

Mr. Dukes

He has acres of rubbish to get through.

Dr. Moffatt

In general, the infectious diseases legislation requires a medical practitioner, on becoming aware of—

Mr. O'Malley

They may prevent me from speaking in the House, but they cannot prevent me from speaking outside it.

Mr. Dukes

That is the problem of being independent.

Acting Chairman

Let us hear the Minister without interruption.

Dr. Moffatt

—or suspecting a case of an infectious disease, to notify the case to the local health board.

I am cognisant of the current difficulties for Irish beef producers, but my primary concern is public health and the safety of food consumed by the public. If the interest of consumers comes first and is seen to come first, consumer confidence will be maintained and the trade restored.

Mr. O'Kennedy

I intervene in this debate for the purpose of supporting the efforts being made by the Minister and the House to achieve two objectives, vindicating the quality of the Irish beef product and reassuring the consumer, at home and abroad, of the quality of that product. I was Minister for Agriculture when the outbreak of BSE occurred in England and Northern Ireland. I remember in 1989 when we did not have a single case of a BSE infected animal. Every day I sought reports from our chief veterinary officer as to whether an incident of a BSE infected animal had occurred here. I remember the day well in early 1989 when I was informed that because of the outbreak of the disease in England and the proximity of this country to Northern Ireland, where there was also an outbreak of the disease, a case of a BSE infected animal was announced and confirmed in Cavan. I immediately went to the Government, knowing the significance of that incident for our industry and our consumers. I asked the Government to give me leave to do two things, which it did, one of which I could have done in my own right, to ban the use of meat-and-bone-meal feed to ruminants and, second, to guarantee that we could have an immediate slaughter policy of all herds where any single incident occurred. I recall the Taoiseach of the day asking me how much would this cost. My response was, "I don't have a clue, but I can tell you it will cost us a lot more if we don't do it".

Consequent on that, we vindicated from the start the quality of our product and our concern for consumers. I then went to Europe at that time because there was an outbreak of the disease in Britain, but unfortunately our European partners would not introduce a European regime to tackle the problem because they claimed they had no problem. Britain had an outbreak of the disease and we had isolated incidents. We had a grass based industry compared to most of our European partners, be they Dutch, German, Belgian or French, who had highly concentrated feed lots, which would not have been grass based. I could not understand then why they did not have the problem we have.

It is time we reminded our European partners of the actions we took from the beginning and of their reluctance to follow us along those lines. It is important that European consumers should know that Ireland was up front from the beginning, that the quality of our product was vindicated from the beginning and that we did not hide or attempt to hide from consumers or others the actions we were taking. Our European counterparts failed to take similar actions and we are all suffering as a result.

I want to make two further comments. We acted at that time on the level of scientific knowledge available, but as the Minister of State acknowledged, much more scientific knowledge is available now in terms of the link between BSE and CJD. That was not available then. Despite the fact that our only concern then was protection of both the producer and consumer interest, we paid top dollar for all animals that were slaughtered. Unfortunately, a small number of rogue farmers abused that to an extent. It has been proved to have happened since and is always a problem. They introduced BSE into their herds to avail of the premium payments we were making available. That is a disgrace to any industry and anyone found doing so should be penalised and punished.

We had another problem at the same time when the term "angel dust" was used widely about other rogue farmers. When I was Minister for Agriculture I refused to use that term and called it devil dust, which is what it was. There were some unrepresentative, individual farmers who did their damnedest to undermine the quality of our great industry for their own selfish reasons. The Minister is working hard to vindicate it now and I hope the fact we took action before anyone else is seen by European consumers as a vindication of that industry.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The emergence of BSE in the livestock of countries hitherto believed to be BSE-free is a huge challenge to food producers and consumers in Ireland and throughout Europe. It places a great responsibility on Governments which are charged with safeguarding the health of their citizens. Once again the confidence of the public in the ability of the agricultural sector to produce safe and high quality beef has been shaken and one of our key industries faces massive difficulties. The great potential for further development of Irish beef production and processing and the promotion of the Irish product in a world market is under threat and clearly a determined and comprehensive approach is required of the Government.

I concur therefore with most of the proposals contained in the Private Members' motion signed by Fine Gael Members. These measures are necessary to ensure that Irish beef is safe and is seen to be safe. The testing of all beef animals entering the food chain will be a major and costly undertaking but it must be done. Those farmers who are affected must be assisted appropriately and the Government must push for consistent and effective anti-BSE measures throughout the EU, a number of whose member states have been far more lax than this State in their approach to the problem.

I cannot accept the proposal in this motion for the construction of an incineration plant. This could prove to be the Trojan cow for the entire network of incinerators which the Government and other interests wish to impose on communities throughout the State. I share the strong view of many people that such an approach to waste management is unacceptable both on human health and environmental grounds.

Mr. Dukes

What would the Deputy do with the carcases?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The thrust of the motion before us is to ensure the safety of food and the prosperity of the industry—

Mr. Dukes

What would the Deputy do with the carcases?

Acting Chairman

Order, order.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Thank you, a Chathaoirleach. One of the selling points of Irish beef and Irish food in general is that it is grown in an environment which does not have the level of chemical pollution which results from the widespread use of waste incineration throughout most EU member states.

Mr. Dukes

What would the Deputy do with the carcases?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Because of my opposition to waste incineration I cannot support the motion as tabled. I note the Government amendment does not repeat the call for an incinerator but the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development is on record in the past week supporting the construction of such a plant. His colleague, the Minister for the Environment and Local Government is facing difficulties with local authorities who refuse to have incinerator plans railroaded through their chambers.

Mr. Dukes

What about the carcases?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I will not be supporting the Government amendment tonight

Mr. Dukes

Turn them into steaks for the Continuity IRA.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Ó Caoláin without interruption.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

That is principally because the Minister of State for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, Deputy O'Keefe, has serious questions to answer, which previous speakers have pointed out. I do not believe that they have been addressed adequately by the Minister of State.

In one respect I would go further than the motion and the Government amendment.

Mr. Dukes

What about the carcases?

Mr. O'Malley

Will I have time to speak?

Acting Chairman

The Deputy has five minutes at the end of this section, as was outlined at the start by the first Government speaker.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Reprocessed animal waste, meat-and-bone-meal, must be totally removed from the food chain. It needs to be banned not just for the six months agreed by the EU Agriculture Ministers last week but for good.

Mr. Dukes

If the Deputy will not incinerate what will he do with the carcases?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I urge the Government to support such a positive move to ensure the safety of our food and to restore public confidence.

Acting Chairman (Mr. McGinley)

Tá noiméad fágtha ag an Teachta.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Go raibh maith agat, an rud deireanach, Irish farmers must be assisted to produce the highest quality food products which are safe and seen to be safe, which are environmentally friendly and can supply the needs of the domestic and foreign markets. In recent years Ireland's image as a clean, green island producing safe food has been dented by the BSE crisis. Both the reality and the image must be restored. I want to see much more effort put into the development of organic farming and other forms of agriculture which can both halt the depletion of our environment and cater to mar kets which less clean and less green competitors cannot supply.

Mr. Dukes

Where will the carcases be buried?

Mr. O'Malley

I am sure if I lived in Castlerea I would get better arrangements.

Mr. Ring

The Deputy would be left out anyway.

Mr. O'Malley

Any motion relating to BSE at present is important but the matter of CJD and its effect on human health and, therefore, on consumer confidence is even more important. The debate in Ireland tends to concentrate on the problems BSE creates for producers rather than on its consequences for human health. I have been concerned for some time that public health is not high on the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development's list of priorities. As a result, consumer confidence at home and abroad has been greatly lessened, as has been indicated by the present market difficulties. If the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development were to reorder his priorities and put trade concerns after human health and consumer confidence, the market problems would soon disappear. Consumer confidence leads trade, not the other way around.

Some weeks ago I drew the attention of the Minister privately, by letter, to the fact that a meat plant in Patrickswell, County Limerick, which was the sole location for the slaughter of BSE-depopulated herds in the country, was also being used to slaughter cattle for human consumption in the Limerick region. I drew his attention to the potential dangers of this to human health and the extreme undesirability of this practice, which was fully authorised by his Department. After a lapse of some time I finally got a reply from which I learned the Department proposed to change the practice and to confine this plant to killing BSE-depopulated herds only. This, of course, was only done by the Department when they learned I knew what was going on. If I had not found out no change would have been made.

The Food Safety Authority was not aware of what was happening in Patrickswell and I understand they expressed their concern about it, quite understandably. After I informed the Food Safety Authority I understand it contacted the Minister for Health and Children who insisted with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development that this arrangement would have to cease because of its implications for public health. This had been going on for several years and if I had not drawn attention to it it might well have gone on for several more years, with potentially serious consequences. Is it any wonder that consumers are worried and have no confidence in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development?

The real danger to public health is likely to arise only from elderly animals and in particular those fed on meat-and-bone-meal prior to proper controls coming in here for the first time in 1996-1997. The European scheme endorsed here, of unnecessary wholesale destruction, is really a market support scheme and not a public health measure. A new proposal to offer a test or destruction to all animals over 30 months is unnecessary and immoral in a world where one billion people or more do not have enough to eat. As only a tiny proportion of depopulated herds are shown to contain a BSE case, the unnecessary destruction that has been going on for some years is no more than a public relations exercise and is indefensible. Whatever destruction is necessary could be done on a more limited scale. The culling of elderly animals, usually spent cows, is all that is essential.

The real crime is the use of meat-and-bone-meal here which was tolerated for so long and is still tolerated in the pig industry. I believe on good authority that the reason that 17 licences were granted to large pig producers for the use of meat-and-bone-meal was simply to comply with World Trade Organisation rules which would have prevented us exporting meat-and-bone-meal unless we were also selling it on our home market. That meat-and-bone-meal was exported to Britain and re-exported on from there to other countries, most of them non-European. I warn now that the long-term consequences of that could be very serious indeed.

Mr. Crawford

I wish to share time with Deputies Connaughton, Ring, Burke and Naughten.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Crawford

The Government's failure to deliver any EU aid for the embattled livestock sector begs major questions of the Taoiseach and Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development regarding their ability to lobby and get support from the EU for Ireland's most important industry in this serious crisis. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development attended the Agriculture Council meetings and, in fairness, I understood he went to Egypt but to date, no results. The Taoiseach spent days in Nice, France, at the European Council meetings but failed to get the extra funds needed at EU level to compensate farming families for an EU based problem. It was clearly in our minds that Germany, France and others opted out of that serious situation over past years. They failed to get full information.

The final straw is the fact that the EU Beef Management Committee meeting in Brussels on Tuesday will have disastrous results for Ireland and discriminate heavily against Irish livestock farmers. The Government's failure to reopen the live export markets to Egypt and Libya left Irish livestock farmers vulnerable at times like this. In the first 11 months of 1995, 263,000 live cattle were exported to non-EU countries where, as in the first 11 months of the year 2000, only 63,000 found their way to non-EU countries. These are not facts of mine, they are facts of the Minister's Department.

Where is the Government's commitment to the people, that if they were returned to power after the last election there would be no problem reopening these markets and the beef market to Iran? I accept that there has been a major increase in live exports of high quality young cattle to continental Europe and this has been important to the suckler cow farmer but it has caused serious problems for the committed livestock farmers who have to compete for store cattle and now find themselves facing bankruptcy.

By the end of this year, there will be up to 2,000 fewer cattle disposed of, either live or dead, compared to 1999. There is no doubt we are heading towards a build-up. Cow kill is now down to less than 50% of normal over the past few weeks. Cattle prices have fallen, with steers down around £90 to £100 per head, heifers over £60 per head with cows down anywhere from £150 to £200, depending on quality. The fact that the Government ignored agriculture in the budget and only mentioned BSE in a passing fashion means that we first must get the Government and the Minister for Finance to realise that we have a problem, admit the extent of the crisis and immediately provide national finance, if not EU finance, to prevent thousands of livestock farmers from going out of business.

The Government must act decisively and quickly on this BSE crisis. They must restore confidence in the industry by taking every step necessary to guarantee consumers a quality product. The Taoiseach must ensure his Ministers lead by example. It is very important the Minister leads by example and that all his colleagues do the same.

The then Taoiseach, Deputy John Bruton, when the BSE crisis hit first, had to ring the Egyptian Prime Minister to get the cattle taken off the boats that were then at sea. At that stage, there was a major debate in this House. It was interesting to hear the comments of Deputy Kirk tonight, condemning Deputy Dukes for raising the debate. I clearly remember in the House at that time, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, Deputy Walsh, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen and the Taoiseach telling us all how easily situations like this were dealt with. They had all the answers. They just boarded planes, went out and solved those problems overnight.

This Minister is a very nice man. He obviously has the farm organisations, or some of them, closely involved with him. As I learned the other day, they are more likely to be in his pocket than worry about the crisis out there. I urge the Minister and farming organisations as well to do what is necessary to make sure a quality product is pro vided for the consumers and that thousands of farmers are not put out of business as a result.

Mr. Connaughton

I have not contributed in this House for a long period on a debate as serious at this for the people I know best, that is, the farming community. What happened in 1996 with the BSE problem could be a garden party compared to what could happen if this crisis is not handled properly. I do not want to be a bearer of bad news. Over the past few years, I have gone out of my way to be restrained regarding anything concerning BSE because although there were many actions that should have been taken, some of the hysterical things I heard about it were out of all proportion. However, this time the chickens have come home to roost, unfortunately, and it is not of our making.

In case anyone is in any doubt, there will be many losers in this but the foremost losers are the men and women of the farming community with stocks in their slatted houses today, who do not know from one day to the next whether they will be able to take the cattle out in the ordinary way and sell them either at a mart or a factory. It is that bad and anybody in the House that does not understand that is fooling themselves. One does not have to be a genius to know the effect that will have on 160,000 Irish farming families. It is important to put on record that when one see what happened in France and Germany – and I am very ashamed of what the Germans and the French did because they were in a state of denial since even 1996 – if ever I saw a case for the renationalisation of markets within the European Community, I see it now. There is no doubt there is BSE in those countries and unless this is solved as an overall problem, we will be submerged in the middle of it.

I agree with most of what has been said in the House tonight. There is a consensus here. We did what we could as a nation to ensure that we had the best possible product for our customers at home and worldwide. Our problem was that not everybody else did the same thing and because we export nine out of every ten animals in Irish fields, one can take it that in a domestic market like France or Germany, they are always importing. They will buy first from their own farmers even though we signed up to a Common Agricultural Policy where our produce had the same right to be on their market as their own.

I am sorry that I do not have enough time. However, one sees the corrosive effect every day as markets are closed to us, Saudi Arabia one day or Egypt the next, that means the other states that might have lived with us are being forced to lose their borders. What kind of parliament would we have if the computer industry closed down? If the chemical industry closed down and there were no exports from Dublin Port there would be many more worried people than there are with regard to what is happening now. Despite all the raiméis about what we will have to do, this will cost money. If we are to keep the farming community together as a viable unit, it must not be asked to take less than other European farmers. I am talking about 90p intervention. I do not know whether there will be a cull or if a test will be introduced. Whatever measure is introduced, I hope our partners are subjected to the same, otherwise we will be seen in a poor light.

It is outrageous that the Minister of State with responsibility for food should have tied himself in a knot, particularly when we have such problems. I do not wish to personalise the matter, but such a Minister, with the image he has all over the world, is not good for us in our present predicament.

Mr. Ring

A fortnight ago Deputy Upton tabled a Private Members' motion on which we had a reasoned and organised debate because we did not want to affect our beef industry. Much has changed in that time.

I was appalled listening to Deputy O'Malley who made very serious allegations against the Department of Agriculture and Food. I was not aware of that until he spoke in the House tonight. The Minister must respond to these allegations immediately. If they are true, and the Minister and the Department were aware of it, three new Ministers must be appointed.

Mr. Davern

There was a time the Deputy was looking for a new leader but he did not have the guts to say it.

Mr. Ring

We have a Taoiseach and three Ministers, each as big a disaster as the other. The three disasters from the south – the wise men came from the east – are in the Department of Agriculture and Food.

Mr. J. Brady

They never told lies like the Fine Gael Minister, drinking in Enniscorthy—

Mr. Ring

The Deputy will have an opportunity and, unlike me, he will have a prepared speech written for him by the programme managers who are paid £70,000 by the State. I have lost confidence in the Department of Agriculture and Food and the three Ministers. It is time we had new blood, ideas and Ministers. The time has come.

Mr. Davern

And a new Fine Gael Leader. An seanchaí bocht.

Mr. Ring

This is not the first time we had a problem in the beef industry. We did not learn from it the last time. Recently in the south we saw where farmers pumped slurry into cattle. Others infected their herds in order to get compensation from the Department. Do they realise what they are doing to this product, to the State and to farmers who depend on this industry? If a poor person stole £10 from Dunnes Stores in Dublin they would be given a six months' sentence but the judge in that case gave a suspended sentence. That sent out the wrong message. A strong message should have been given by the judge that anyone who tried to sabotage this national industry would be put behind bars.

Mr. Davern

I agree.

Mr. Ring

I was not a Member of the House for long when Deputy Yates was Minister. Then we had the Minister, Deputy Walsh, and his two men from the south, the rebels beside him, and Deputy Cowen who was frothing at the mouth. He was doing so well he could have taken flight. He told Deputy Yates what to do. Deputy Yates went to Europe and agreed a package of £50 per head. What has the Minister negotiated?

I read the Irish Farmers Journal last week. I am not a farmer, but I like the paper and buy it every week as it keeps me informed. The Minister informs the Irish Farmers Journal about what is happening more so than the House. If the message he wants to send is that he has disrespect for this House, that is fine.

There is no future in farming for many farmers. Deputy Connaughton is right, there are many farmers in my constituency and throughout the country who will not have a good Christmas. Their product will remain in sheds and they do not know what will happen to it. We have three Ministers from the south, one disaster after the other, doing nothing about it. The Minister, Deputy Walsh, and Ministers of State, Deputies Davern and O'Keeffe are three nice guys but nice guys do not get on in the world. What we want is three strong men in Europe and it is time we had them. The Taoiseach is not strong enough to do the job. We need a new Government, Taoiseach and three Ministers.

Mr. Walsh

And a new Leader in Fine Gael.

Mr. U. Burke

I regret that I have little or no confidence in the capacity of the Minister and his colleagues or the Department to deal with the crisis in agriculture, particularly in beef production, and the health risks posed by the outbreaks of BSE. As Deputy O'Malley said, we can prioritise the issues according to how strongly we feel about them, be they health risks, markets, producers and so on.

I do not understand how, when the Council of Ministers established a community approach to dealing with BSE, the Minister capitulated and agreed that if there is a purchase for destruction scheme we must accept a price of £170 less per animal than our counterparts in France. That is the fault of the Minister. He has failed the farmers once more, the producers, who are now in crisis. Many family farms depending on an income from farming have been let down by the Minister, but that is nothing new.

The Minister was made aware of a serious matter in County Galway relating to an outbreak of BSE. In his reply to me today, I was astounded at how out of touch the Minister is with reality. This animal was dying from BSE and was buried, under the supervision of the Department, beside the source of water for four families. When it was discovered, the Department was informed but failed the remove the animal for a week. In reply to a question I tabled on the matter, the Minister informed me that, in the case referred to, the trailer that was used to transport the animal was abandoned in a most dangerous manner without regard for human or animal health. Now it is in a secure place which the Minister is not allowed to disclose. A more permanent solution for the disposal of the carcase is to be decided upon. Is the Minister stating that months after this animal was identified, buried and exhumed it is now in a secure place which he will not disclose? That is a disgrace. It is a danger to human health. The Minister said he cannot release the trailer used to transport the animal. He cannot have it both ways. The Minister has failed on all counts. That is why I do not have any confidence in his capacity to deal with the crisis in agriculture, particularly in relation to BSE. The Minister, along with his junior Minister, has to reassess his situation. The most reasonable thing he could do is to hand this over to somebody who will tackle it in a more serious way.

Mr. Davern

There are standards and there are standards.

Mr. Naughten

Last week when this motion was tabled someone asked me why we tabled a motion on BSE. It is important because it is not just an issue facing the farming community. Last Sunday the international media ran with an article which published a report that the first known indigenous case of variant form Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease was diagnosed outside Europe. This report, which came on top of the closure of Irish beef markets in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the Philippines in conjunction with the drop off in beef consumption in the European Union, has now set in train a serious catastrophe in the agriculture industry and the Irish economy.

This is a disaster not just for farmers or for meat factory employees but for the consumer, food production, manufacture and export. There are approximately 12,400 staff working within the Irish meat industry. Their jobs are now threatened by this new BSE crisis. Some 39,300 jobs are directly reliant on the reputation of Irish food and its reputation abroad. How many billions of pounds will the BSE outbreak cost us when every animal has to be tested at a cost of £25 per head, when every at risk animal has to be destroyed, when all these carcases have to be incinerated or otherwise disposed of, when the costs have to be met and when compensation has to be provided to farm families?

Ireland, with a herd of 7.5 million cattle, could be faced with a bill of up to £2.8 billion. That is why this situation is serious for everybody and not only the farm bodies. We must ensure immediate measures are taken so that Irish and foreign consumers continue to have the confidence to consume safe Irish beef, that farm families can make a living from its production, that our processing plants can continue to employ Irish staff and that we can secure the reputation of all Irish food products abroad.

Our ability to deal with these issues is seriously compromised by the Government's ineptitude in dealing with the grave issues that confront us. It is not a responsible Government like the previous one whose Minister, Deputy Yates, tackled this issue head on. He did not play to the gallery; he was prepared to take the tough decisions needed. We have to be conscious that we are dealing with one of the most important public health issues and consumer perceptions are not conscious of the minuscule risk of infection.

We need to be in a position where we can certify tested BSE free beef at home and in the markets abroad as quickly as possible. We must be able to track beef from the farm to the fork – from the farm to the processor to the retailer to the kitchen table. We require an effective and transparent system which will give us the opportunity to restore public confidence in beef production which is a vital element of our food production. We must provide immediate testing for animals entering the food chain and we must be able to identify, track and ensure we eliminate BSE. This testing must begin now. Such a test has been in place for a number of years in some supermarkets, namely the ENFER test. In all the tests which have taken place, no animal has been found with BSE.

Ireland has implemented the most stringent regulations in Europe. We need our European partners to buy into the same stringent regulations. We need to lead this debate and to lead in the introduction of these new measures. As this country has a greater reliance on the beef industry than any other country in the European Union, we need to ensure all our European colleagues implement a fair system that ensures we can guarantee the viability of our farms and of beef production and guarantee our beef is BSE free, safe to eat and a prime quality product. I urge the Minister to reconsider his decision to amend this motion. This is of fundamental importance to the Irish beef sector and I urge him not only on behalf of the beef sector but on behalf of the consumer to accept the proposal.

Mr. Bradford

I support the motion put forward by my colleague, Deputy Dukes. It is remarkable, but unfortunate, that this is the second time in almost a fortnight a motion has been tabled to deal with the BSE crisis. I concur fully with what my colleague, Deputy Naughten, said. This issue is not simply about the farming side because BSE is a huge problem from the consumer point of view and we must tackle it both from a consumer and a producer point of view.

Nobody can doubt the value and importance of the beef industry to the Irish economy. That is something to which my party leader, Deputy Bruton, referred during his speech on the budget today. At a time when there is a major economic emphasis on the computer and pharmaceutical industries, we have to be very careful to prepare for the day when agriculture is again our core industry. It would be a great shame and an economic disaster if we cannot protect and provide for the beef industry.

It was disappointing that the Minister for Finance, during his very lengthy budget speech, almost totally ignored the agriculture sector and did not give any indication of a provision for compensation for BSE. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development knows that unless adequate compensation is put in place, tens of thousands of beef farms will disappear. That will be bad for rural Ireland, for the economy and for the social fabric of this country. Sadly, what we have seen and heard from Brussels and from the Minister's efforts in recent days gives us no cause for optimism. We need to see the colour of the Government's money on this issue. We need an early statement from the Minister on what compensatory measures will be put in place.

There is a fear among the agricultural community about where the beef industry is going. Over the past fortnight or so, the confidence which was slowly and effectively built up in the beef industry over the past three or four years has disappeared. Sadly, there is no light at the end of the tunnel. The Minister's job is to lead, to show the farmers there is a future in the beef industry, to ensure a package is put in place to give compensation where it is so urgently required and to put in place an intervention system that will give a reasonable return. Unfortunately, we have not had any indication to date from the Minister that he is meeting this challenge.

The motion put forward by the Fine Gael Party is cautious in its wording and takes into account a very serious national debate that needs to take place on this issue. It is not scaremongering; it is simply responding to what is a genuinely serious situation for rural Ireland, the consumer and the producer. The Minister's response last night and that of his junior Minister gives no cause for optimism or confidence. I hope the Minister's colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Davern, will be able to add something further to what was said last night.

When the point scoring that occurs in every Dáil debate fades away, we will still have to ensure there is a beef industry and that the Minister and his Government colleagues can lead in the defence of that beef industry over the next few days and weeks. I would like to hear from the Minister of State, Deputy Davern, what, unfortunately, we did not hear from the Minister last night. The Fine Gael motion is worthy of support. It is a bit like the motion put forward by Deputy Upton and her colleagues in the Labour Party a fortnight ago. Because of the political games played on the Government side the motion was cast aside. That is not how we should deal with the issue. When a serious motion, properly constructed in a fair and balanced fashion, is brought before the House it should not be dismissed. I regret the Minister is attempting to sideline the Fine Gael motion for his own political purposes. There is no word in the motion which is offside as far as a constructive debate on this industry is concerned.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development (Mr. Davern)

This is the fourth occasion in two weeks when Members have had the opportunity to discuss matters relating to BSE, food safety and related issues, including the impact on markets. This intense focus by the Oireachtas on the most recent developments relating to BSE reflects the national importance of the issue. It should convey a clear message at home and abroad that Members of this House and of the Seanad take a great interest in food safety, consumer protection and matters affecting our agri-food sector. Let us put it in perspective. We have 567 cases of BSE out of a herd of 7.5 million animals which is 0.0012%. England has 177,000 cases out of a herd of over 11 million animals. For God's sake let us not decry our farming community in this fashion. Let us have confidence in our own community. In relation to Deputy Burke and his attack on Department officials and on the Ministers, I ask him to ensure his representations are proper in regard to standards—

Mr. U. Burke

I was referring to the Minister's reply and to his official's reply. This is not an attack.

Mr. Davern

I ask the Deputy to ensure representations are about sincere cases not about people trying to fiddle the system.

Mr. U. Burke

It is the Minister who is fiddling.

Mr. Davern

I ask the Deputy to be careful on that one.

Mr. U. Burke

This is an attack—

Mr. Davern

Deputy Ring will know about this. The Deputy's problem is that he could not decide whether he was for the seanachaí buachaill or not for him.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. U. Burke

It is out, out, out.

Mr. Davern

I have never witnessed such enthusiasm to knock the farming community and the proper standards which exist for those who obey them and the genuine farmers who are shocked. The case of an animal with BSE is shocking.

Mr. Ring

The Minister wants to penalise the poor old woman—

Mr. Davern

Is injury time allowed?

Acting Chairman

The Minister without interruption, please.

Mr. Davern

I do not propose to revisit all these. The personal attacks made on the Minister of State, Deputy O'Keeffe, who is a long-standing good farmer and has an excellent record in farming, are beneath contempt. There is no doubt that as a result of recent events we are now faced with formidable tasks, ranging from large scale testing regimes, through market management to the disposal and ultimate destruction here in Ireland of animal waste products. I thank the Opposition for its recommendation on the need for an incinerator here and we need it as of yesterday. I hope that will be reflected at local level by all parties.

Mr. Ring

None more so than in the Minister's own area.

Mr. Davern

I appreciate that.

Mr. Ring

I like the way—

Acting Chairman

The Minister without interruption, please.

Mr. Davern

Do not tempt me, it will be the first place for an incinerator. It is important that we stand behind the standards as we believe the vast majority of our farmers have done.

A Deputy

It is up to you, son.

Mr. Davern

This is not a shouting issue. The vast majority of our farmers, 99% of whom are good, honest, decent people want a solution to this problem. In respect of those in Cork who injected slurry into animals, the Attorney General and the Solicitor General should appeal the case. They should have got jail for what they did.

Mr. D. Ahern

The Minister is in power.

Acting Chairman

The Minister's time has expired.

Mr. Davern

I am entitled to injury time.

Mr. Ring

The Minister got what he deserved.

Mr. Davern

I ask Deputy Burke to make sure his representations are about people who are genuine, not the disingenuous people.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. U. Burke

I was talking about a reply.

Mr. Deenihan

I wish to share my time with Deputy Dukes. This matter is all about compensation. We can talk forever here and argue major points but at the end of the day if we are to save the farming population it is about compensation. The money is available. I hope the Government has the willpower to provide a decent package for farmers on top of what he has already achieved. I understand the compensation proposed is the average price of beef during the past four weeks for each country. A case is being made that it should be the average price during the past four weeks in the whole Community. That is where the negotiations failed. The price of beef in France and in other countries is much higher than here. If the average price applies in each country it means Irish farmers will receive less compensation than their European counterparts. We have been caught again. The only way this can be made up is through a national package in addition to the European package. If the Minister is concerned and if there is a commitment from the Government towards the farming population, which is still the backbone of rural communities, then he must act. I do not want to cast any slurs in this House on the Minister of State, Deputy O'Keeffe, whom I know well and is a nice man outside the House. In here though he has stooped to low depths over the years and he has done so in relation to myself. I do not wish to say anything to him. It is up to him and his conscience and his Leader to decide what he should do. As regards farmers it is a matter of compensation and it is within the Minister's power to act. He will have to make it available if they are to be saved.

Mr. Dukes

I invite the Minister for Finance to think again about the position he will take on this motion, if he means what he says then he actually agrees with our motion. Two paragraphs in the Minister's amendment are directly taken from the Fine Gael motion. They are two important ones:

conscious of the new and greater difficulties for Irish farmers resulting from the detection of BSE in Continental EU member states;

wishing to counter the serious consequences which this could have for farm families, workers in the food processing industry and the fabric of rural society and communities.

The Minister's motion has taken those two paragraphs word for word from the motion I tabled in the names of all the Fine Gael Deputies. If the Minister really means that he should accept the motion before the House. The Minister talked about safeguarding the integrity and the safety of Irish beef. That is perfectly in keeping with the motion. In all the places in the amendment where the Minister speaks about what he will actually do in relation to the difficulties this creates for Irish farmers and for rural communities, the Minister's amendment is weaker than the Fine Gael motion. He does not say we want a compensation scheme. He does not say we want equality of treatment with farmers in other member states. The Minister would do well to listen to what Deputy Deenihan said. The Minister's amendment is weaker than our motion on every one of those important aspects. The Minister even has a paragraph in his amendment similar to ours about the energetic and innovative approach to the promotion of Irish beef and cattle. Even that, unfortunately, is less specific than the terms of the motion before the House.

I invite the Minister, if he really means what he said here last night and in the Government's amendment to the motion, to withdraw the amendment and agree with the Fine Gael motion. Let us proceed on this crucial issue on the basis of agreement. Let us proceed to protect the health of consumers on the basis of agreement in this House. Let us proceed to deal with the consequences of this for farming families, rural communities, our food processing industry and the people who work in that industry on the basis of some agreement in this House.

Let us make no mistake about this. I do not want to dramatise it, but we must face the reality. The crisis we are facing now has the potential to bring about the greatest change in dietary habits across Europe in a generation. That is what we are facing. We must deal with that with credibility and assurance.

Irish farmers and the Irish food processing industry will suffer because other member states of the European Union did not take the action in 1996 that we took. We are about to be caught up in the consequences of that. The Irish rural community and food processing industry will be affected as a result of the laxity and carelessness of other member states four years ago when we took appropriate measures.

It is up to our Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development to ensure that damage is limited as much as possible and that we put in place measures that will restore the name, reputation and image of safety and quality of Irish beef. I again ask the Minister, if he means what he said here last night and in the amendment he tabled, to support the motion and not make a political football out of it, rather than coming here with a rag of an amendment, which is what Departments always do at the bidding of Ministers who simply do not want to agree that the Opposition has taken the lead on a matter. The Minister should forget that because this is too important.

There is a very important point here, to which Deputy Deenihan and others referred last night and tonight. We want to ensure there is equality of treatment of farmers throughout the European Union on how this problem is dealt with. We want to ensure Irish farmers do not unfairly have to bear a higher cost than they should because of the negligence of governments of other member states.

For that reason, I am appalled by something in the speech of the Minister of State, Deputy Davern, which he did not have time to say but which I have read in his script. In it, he refers to the difference in prices that will be available to Irish producers, compared to those that will be available to farmers in France. I will quote what he was going to say because, I regret to say, these seem to be the facts of the situation that faces us. The speech states:

The French price under the scheme will be higher than the price in Ireland, only to the extent that it is normally higher than Irish prices. Secondly, it is of major importance to Irish producers that the scheme actually succeeds in removing the surplus. This will happen only if the destruction price is attractive to producers in all member states, which means that it needs to be set at a reasonable level, relative to the market.

That means the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development and at least one of his Ministers of State have already thrown in the towel. They are accepting that once again, as has happened time after time, in scheme after scheme, Irish farmers will be less well treated than farmers in other member states of the European Union.

It might be said that the destruction price has to be attractive to producers in all member states, which it has. It also has to be attractive to farmers here. There is no reason any Irish Minister should accept, as a matter of form or practice and without arguing about it, that the price available to Irish producers should be less favourable than that available to producers anywhere else. I call on the Minister to ensure that scheme when it is put into operation gives Irish farmers the same treatment that farmers will get in other member states of the European Union. It is just as important that every aspect of this scheme works as well in Ireland as it does anywhere else.

There is one major point of difference between the Government and the Opposition on this motion, which is the situation of the Minister of State in charge of food quality and safety. Last night the Minister of State delivered a most incoherent rant to the House, a 20 minute speech which he tried to deliver in ten minutes. It avoided all the main issues and was littered with inconsistencies.

The Minister, Deputy Walsh, was interviewed on "Morning Ireland" this morning about the situation of his Minister of State. I do not want to dramatise this, but everyone who heard that interview will know what I mean. His replies about the situation of the Minister of State, Deputy Ned O'Keeffe, were terse. He gave every appearance of being somebody who knew he was on the radio to defend the indefensible. I must confess I felt a bit sorry for him because I knew he wanted to say that the Minister of State should go, especially after his performance here last night.

The Minister of State spoke last night of the fact that he is now writing to the Taoiseach to draw his attention, under the terms of the Ethics in Public Office Act and Cabinet procedure handbooks, to the connections of his family with various businesses, thereby admitting that he has not done so up to now and that he should have done so before now. On that ground alone, he deserves to resign. That is an admission of a serious impropriety on his part. The fact that these matters have been referred by myself and Deputy Howlin to the Public Offices Commission does not, in any way, absolve the Taoiseach of his political responsibility for office holders appointed by him. The Taoiseach should act now without waiting for the Public Offices Commission to act.

Second, the Minister of State admitted that he was a member until yesterday of a committee of Dairygold, membership of which requires that one is a full-time farmer. He was fooling either Dairygold or this House until yesterday evening, when he said he was resigning from that committee.

Third, the Minister of State referred last night early in his speech, after where a paragraph had obviously been deleted by the spin doctors, to this "minimal activity" in relation to his farm. He has not explained what that minimal activity was. I submit that, on the basis of what the Minister of State said here last night and other information that has become available, he has been actively involved since he took office in running the affairs of his family's farming enterprises in contravention of the terms of the Ethics in Public Office Act and the procedures set out in the Cabinet handbook. Having admitted to doing so, he should now resign.

Fourth, the Minister of State admitted last night that his family's farm, which he is clearly involved in managing, decided explicitly not to follow best practice in pig production. They decided explicitly not to do what over 90% of pig producers in the country have done. He is the Minister of State who is supposed to promote food quality and good standards in food production in our country.

The Minister of State also admitted last night that there was an involvement by the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development in the question of licensing. He tried to pretend that the issuing of licences under statute is a matter for civil servants. We know it comes within the political responsibility of the political heads of the Department, that is, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development and his Ministers of State. A Minister of State who does not accept that position has no business staying in his job. He should go now.

I again invite the Minister to withdraw the idiotic Government amendment, support the motion and let us go forward on that basis. I also call on him to tell his Minister of State, who has sullied the name of Irish quality food, to resign before it is too late.

Amendment to amendment No. 1 put.

Tá

Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Bell, Michael.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Bruton, Richard.Burke, Ulick.Carey, Donal.Clune, Deirdre.Connaughton, Paul.Cosgrave, Michael.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.Deenihan, Jimmy.Dukes, Alan.Durkan, Bernard.Enright, Thomas.Farrelly, John.Finucane, Michael.Fitzgerald, Frances.Flanagan, Charles.Gilmore, Éamon.Hayes, Brian.Higgins, Jim.Hogan, Philip.Howlin, Brendan.Kenny, Enda.

McCormack, Pádraic.McDowell, Derek.McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Olivia.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Owen, Nora.Penrose, William.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Shatter, Alan.Sheehan, Patrick.Shortall, Róisín.Spring, Dick.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.Yates, Ivan.

Níl

Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Byrne, Hugh.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Foley, Denis.Fox, Mildred.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.

Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.Lawlor, Liam.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John J.Moffatt, Thomas.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Dea, Willie.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Kennedy, Michael.O'Malley, Desmond.O'Rourke, Mary.Power, Seán.Reynolds, Albert.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Stagg and Flanagan; Níl, Deputies S. Brennan and Power.

Amendment to amendment No. 1 declared lost.

Amendment put.

Tá

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Barrett, Seán.Bell, Michael.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Bruton, Richard.Burke, Ulick.Carey, Donal.Clune, Deirdre.Connaughton, Paul.Cosgrave, Michael.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.Deenihan, Jimmy.Dukes, Alan.Durkan, Bernard.Enright, Thomas.Farrelly, John.Finucane, Michael.Fitzgerald, Frances.Flanagan, Charles.Gilmore, Éamon.Hayes, Brian.Higgins, Jim.Hogan, Philip.Howlin, Brendan.Kenny, Enda.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Power; Níl, Deputies Flanagan and Stagg.

Amendment declared carried.

Question put: "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to."

Tá

Níl

Hogan, Philip.Howlin, Brendan.Kenny, Enda.McCormack, Pádraic.McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Olivia.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Owen, Nora.Penrose, William.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Shatter, Alan.Sheehan, Patrick.Shortall, Róisín.Spring, Dick.Stagg, Emmet. Stanton, David.

Níl–continued

Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.

Wall, Jack.Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Power; Níl, Deputies Flanagan and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 13 Dec 2000