Vol. 530 No. 1
30 Mrs. B. Moynihan-Cronin asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when he will bring proposals for amendment of the Garda Síochána Complaints Act, 1986, to Government; if his proposals are likely to include provision for the appointment of a Garda ombudsman; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3186/01]
32 Mr. Broughan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his proposals for a Garda inspectorate; when he will bring proposals to Government on this issue; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3177/01]
39 Mr. Creed asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his proposals for an independent inspectorate for the Garda Síochána; and if he envisages that this inspectorate will independently investigate complaints made against gardaí. [3239/01]
64 Mr. J. O'Keeffe asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his proposals to change the Garda Síochána complaints procedure. [3224/01]
92 Mr. Coveney asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if it is intended to provide for a Garda ombudsman similar to that proposed for Northern Ireland in the Patten report; and his views on whether such a development is desirable. [3238/01]
138 Mr. Shatter asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his proposals for an independent inspectorate for the Garda Síochána; and if he envisages this inspectorate will independently investigate complaints made against members of the Garda Síochána. [3029/01]
139 Mr. Shatter asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if it is intended to appoint a Garda ombudsman similar to that proposed for Northern Ireland in the Patten report; and his views on whether such a development is desirable. [3030/01]
140 Mr. Shatter asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his proposals for an independent inspectorate for the Garda Síochána; and if he envisages that this inspectorate will, in the future, independently investigate complaints made against members of the Garda. [3241/01]
141 Mr. Shatter asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if it is intended to provide in this State for a Garda ombudsman similar to that proposed for Northern Ireland in the Patten report; and if he believes such a development is desirable. [3243/01]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 30, 32, 39, 64, 92 and 138 to 141, inclusive, together.
Deputies will be aware from the replies I have given to previous questions in this House, and particularly my reply to Priority Question No. 86 on 15 November last year, Official Report, Vol. 526 Cols. 73 to 75, that I accept that the current arrangements for dealing with complaints against members of the Garda Síochána are not satisfactory and need to be revised. In that context, I have also indicated that it is my intention to bring forward appropriate proposals to Government to amend the Garda Síochána (Complaints) Act, 1986.
A substantial number of proposals have been advanced relating to reform of the Garda complaints machinery, including proposals made by the Garda Complaints Board in a series of reports it has presented to me. The relevant issues have raised important and complex concerns which have required the carrying out of a detailed review. That review is receiving priority attention and it has almost been completed. As part of this exercise, I am looking at possible new arrangements which would not only cover complaints against individual members but also wider policing issues. A general review is being undertaken in relation to the management and structures of the Garda Síochána. While this exercise is not specifically concerned with Garda complaints, it is looking at a wide range of strategies with a view to improving the quality of the services delivered to the public by the gardaí.
Some questions are concerned with whether it is proposed to provide for a Garda ombudsman. I dealt with this topic in my reply on 15 November and I do not propose to repeat in full what I said in my earlier reply. However, I remind Deputies that, on that occasion, I referred to the particular circumstances in which it was found necessary to establish very specific confidence-building measures in relation to the police in Northern Ireland. In addition, I said I was not satisfied that similar arrangements would be either appropriate or beneficial in this jurisdiction. I have not altered my views on this matter.
Another question refers to the introduction of an independent inspectorate for the Garda Síochána. The establishment of such a body is one of the options under examination as part of the review to which I have referred. In the circumstances, Deputies will appreciate that, at this stage, it would be premature for me to indicate a final view in relation to an inspectorate. However, it is an option I am considering very carefully. I expect to be in a position to finalise my proposals for changes to be made in the field of Garda complaints shortly. I will submit them to Government for approval as quickly as possible. When the Government has considered the matter I will make a further statement.
As Deputy Shatter is present and some of the questions are in his name I will call him first.
By what date does the Minister expect to produce a substantive proposal to this House to address these issues? Does he acknowledge that the current system as operated by the Garda complaints tribunal is not working to the extent that gardaí who have had spurious complaints made against them can be under a cloud, not just for months but years, before the complaints are dealt with and ordinary citizens who make complaints, properly and validly, believe they are not taken seriously, treated with urgency or given priority? Does the Minister acknowledge that we need a new structure, in fairness both to the Garda Síochána and the public, to deal with complaints made against it? Will the Minister clarify why, if he has not yet made up his mind on the matter, he floated the idea a few weeks ago that he would put in place an independent inspectorate to deal with issues relating to the gardaí that had given rise to complaint or which needed to be investigated? Will he indicate if he was flying a kite or has he any view on this issue? If he has a view, how does he envisage the independent inspectorate will operate? From where will it come?
Subject to the changes identified in the course of my review, the current structures under which complaints against the Garda are dealt with do not need to be radically altered. This would mean, for example, that complaints against individual members would continue to be addressed by the Garda Complaints Board and that internal disciplinary matters would continue to remain the responsibility of the Garda Commissioner. However, I recognise that there are situations outside the existing complaints machinery that require to be covered. What I have in mind is where specific Garda systems or operations do not measure up to the appropriate standards, for example, the difficulties which arose in County Donegal. I am looking closely at the question of an inspectorate. A new independent inspectorate with appropriate powers might be very well placed to conduct the necessary investigations in such cases. I am considering the measures that would be required to put that inspectorate in place. It is an important part of the review.
There are two distinct issues. The first relates to the review of the Garda complaints procedures. The Minister referred to his reply to the same question in November last year. He told the House then that the review of the operations of the Garda Síochána Complaints Act was nearing completion. He has now repeated that to the House. Will he give a definitive date by which that review will be completed? Will he publish its conclusions as soon as they come to hand?
As regards the Garda ombudsman, which the Minister dismissed on the last occasion saying it was a matter relevant to Northern Ireland because of the unique situation there but not one relevant to us, has he had an opportunity to reflect further on that? In particular has he taken the opportunity to discuss this matter with Dr. Maurice Hayes, who was instrumental in drawing up the proposals for Northern Ireland and who, as a member of the Oireachtas, would be a very useful person with whom to discuss these matters and their application to this jurisdiction?
I do not believe that it is desirable to transpose unquestioningly a system that operates in one jurisdiction to another jurisdiction.
Do it questioningly.
What might be suitable in one jurisdiction might not be suitable in another. However, I accept it is of considerable importance that the investigating mechanism available in this jurisdiction should be every bit as effective and efficient as any new system that might emerge in the North. I have not discussed the matter with the Senator but I would have no difficulty in doing so. I recognise the major contribution that Senator Hayes has made in this area and its quality. I have stated on a number of occasions that the Garda Complaints Board needs to be looked at and new mechanisms put in place. It is my intention to do that. I expect the report to be to hand very shortly.
And published.
Am I right in saying that the Minister has decided the need for an independent Garda inspectorate derives from the ongoing investigations being conducted in Donegal and that he believes there is a need for legislation to give such an inspectorate statutory powers? Will the Minister tell the House, as matters now stand, if he is dissatisfied with the investigations being conducted into allegations of Garda misbehaviour in Donegal? Will he say whether he is concerned that some members of the Garda Síochána may not have fully co-operated with those investigations or does he believe that those responsible for the investigations have had the fullest possible co-operation? Is he now acknowledging that the Donegal allegations have rendered it an urgent priority that we put in place an independent inspectorate and, if so, will he clarify from where it is to come? Is it to be recruited from an outside police force or does he envisage recruiting separately for such inspectorate from the usual Garda recruitment process?
I stated earlier that I have not ruled out the possibility of a public inquiry in relation to the Donegal situation which I gave as an example when I was outlining what a new inspectorate might investigate, so therefore I was not ruling out the other. I cannot state that I am dissatisfied with the investigations carried out in Donegal. It has to be remembered that the Garda Síochána are involved in criminal investigation and the Garda Commissioner is involved in internal disciplinary matters. In regard to whether given standards were adhered to in situations like Donegal, we are then into different territory and whether we should have a public inquiry or whether that should be examined by an inspectorate. The whole question of prosecutions, if any, arising out of Donegal are and must remain a matter for the Director of Public Prosecutions.
My concern is about what appears to be the pedestrian pace of change in this matter. Will the Minister clarify who is dragging their feet in relation to change? As I understand it, there is a general agreement that change is necessary. Why is it not taking place? The Minister is in charge. Where lies this review report? Who has been holding it up? Is it a fact that a draft has been sent to the Minister and it may be held up in his own Department? What is the situation? Will the Minister also outline the position on the latest annual report of the existing Garda Síochána Complaints Board? When was the last one published? When is the next one due? Is there a delay in that regard? Will the Minister explain why, if there is this notion of change, it is not taking place?
Deputy O'Keeffe knows well that it is not as simple as he makes it out to be. There are diverging views on this matter. We have had a contribution from the Garda Síochána Complaints Board. We have had a view from the European committee on torture and inhumane and degrading treatment. We have had a view from the Garda Síochána and views have been expressed by others, including staff associations and so on. All these matters have to be given the most careful consideration. I have indicated that the review will be published shortly—
The Minister said that last year.
In November.
—that it is well advanced and the moment it is to hand, I will be taking the necessary action. Of that there can be no question.
In the public domain now there are three unconcluded Garda investigations into allegations of misconduct in Donegal. There is another internal Garda investigation into allegations of bribery and corruption in south Dublin. First, are there any other internal investigations into allegations of wrongdoing currently under way in the Garda Síochána? Second, is the Minister satisfied with the conduct of those internal investigations? Third, the Minister is reported in The Irish Times of 27 January as indicating that if progress can be made on establishing an independent inspectorate, it is possible that it could act as an investigating body into what went wrong with policing in this country? Will the Minister explain what he meant by giving that impression to a journalist?
We may have gone outside the realm of the questions.
I certainly have no recollection of the latter quote. If the Deputy can bring it to my attention, I will see from where that came. Obviously there are well publicised investigations going on and other than those which have been reported upon, I am not aware of any further investigations.
Those four?
The Director of Public Prosecutions is considering the report from Commissioner Carthy. It is of considerable importance that the Director of Public Prosecutions always has an independent role in this jurisdiction. I will not seek, and never would, to interfere with him. When he has made his report available in relation to Donegal, at that point decisions will be taken in relation to where we go from there—
What about the non-prosecutorial issues?
—but no decision will be taken until then because it would be most inappropriate for me to publish a report or an investigation file which was being examined by the Director of Public Prosecutions. It would be unprecedented for an investigation file to be published before the Director of Public Prosecutions had decided precisely what he was going to do.
Is the Minister hoping to be out of office by then?
I know I will not be out of office by then.
We will oblige the Minister.
Does the Minister accept that no concrete progress has been made in this area since the last Justice Question Time in the House in November, when we had a similar debate? We are hearing now the same answers we heard then. Does the Minister believe it is appropriate for members of the Garda Síochána to investigate their colleagues, even in cases of minor allegations? Does he believe that is appropriate when we have the responsibility to ensure that public confidence in the Garda Síochána is maximised? Does he believe it is fair to the members of the force concerned who are under investigation or who are doing the investigating that they are asked to undertake this work, which is basically examining the work of colleagues and, in many cases, friends of theirs? Will the Minister inform the House whether he has a timescale for concrete proposals on whether we will be talking about a review that is under way during the next Question Time when, no doubt, we will have the same debate again?
In my own defence, there is no delay on my part. There may be a degree of impatience on Deputy Coveney's part but whether there is or not, due process must be allowed to take place in this jurisdiction at all times and no Minister for Justice must ever deviate from it, irrespective of what the public perception of himself or herself may be at any given time. I do not propose to depart from that precedent. I did mention that from a public perception perspective, there can be no question but that some people would obviously prefer people other than gardaí to investigate gardaí. That is why I have indicated that I am seriously examining the whole question of an inspectorate.
With regard to the investigation of criminal offences in the State, be it against the gardaí or anybody else, that is a matter reposed in the Garda. In that context, senior members of the Garda Síochána and, in particular, the Commissioner are as anxious as Deputy Coveney and I to ensure that this matter is brought to a conclusion.
