Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 May 2001

Vol. 537 No. 3

Other Questions. - Traveller Accommodation.

Mr. Molloy

The Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act, 1998, requires local authorities, in carrying out the statutory assessment of needs under section 9 of the Housing Act, 1988, to include a separate assessment of the need for caravan sites for Travellers. The assessment must include the assessment of need for sites with limited facilities, normally referred to as transient sites, to take account of the annual pattern of movement of Travellers, other than their normal place of residence.

Under the 1998 Act, each local authority is required to have regard to the need for transient sites as identified in its assessment of need in preparing its Traveller accommodation programme. No distinction is made between categories of Traveller, such as traders, who may avail of the use of transient sites provided by local authorities. However, guidelines issued by my Department to local authorities on the provision of transient sites recommended that generally such sites should not be designed to cater for more than 20 bays. There is a range of powers available to local authorities and the Garda Síochána to deal with unauthorised encampments.

Mr. Hayes

Is the Minister admitting that there is a law in place under which every local authority is expected to provide an infinite number of transient halting sites to a group of people whose members are, in the main, traders who can provide accommodation of their own or who have alternative accommodation in other counties? Does the Minister accept there is a need to change the law in respect of trespass? A situation arose in my constituency where 120 traders moved into an area and caused £60,000 damage as a result of leaving 200 tonnes of rubbish on a public open space. The Minister expects the relevant local authority to foot the bill for this. Does the Minister accept that the handling of transient, Traveller traders threatens the entire success of the Traveller accommodation programme?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy's time has expired.

Mr. Hayes

Does the Minister accept that the accommodation programme will not be successful because people will not accept the continual flouting of the law as a result of his actions in recent years?

Mr. Molloy

I am not sure what the Deputy means by my "actions".

Mr. Hayes

Inaction would be a better description.

Mr. Molloy

I introduced the Traveller accommodation legislation and the local authorities have drawn up and adopted their accommodation plans. It is time now to implement these proposals. The accommodation proposals require the provision of transient sites. If local authorities in Dublin had been active in implementing these proposals and if the transient sites were in place, this type of difficulty would not arise.

The absence of transient sites gives rise to difficulties. This is not a new problem although it may be new to Deputy Hayes or to Dublin. People throughout the country experience this problem in spring and summer every year. Local authorities which have taken action on this issue no longer experience difficulties to the same extent as heretofore. The Traveller community in this country has been neglected and there is no easy solution to the problem of accommodation pro vision. We have had a Supreme Court decision on what one can and cannot do where facilities are not provided—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I ask the Minister to conclude.

Mr. Molloy

Where facilities are not provided, one cannot simply push people on. There is a responsibility on local authorities to provide transient sites to cater for Travellers and that has not yet been achieved to a desirable extent. The four local authorities in Dublin have decided to come together to proceed with the provision of transient sites.

Ms O. Mitchell

Does the Minister accept it is a bit rich to blame the Supreme Court or any other court for implementing the provisions of legislation he himself introduced? Does he accept that I and others sought amendments whereby transient travel would be regulated? We were not saying people should not be allowed to move from one place to another, rather that it was unreasonable to have to provide transient accommodation on demand to any number of Travellers who might turn up in a particular area, in addition to permanent accommodation.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should confine herself to questions.

Ms O. Mitchell

The provisions of the Traveller accommodation legislation are inoperable.

Mr. Gilmore

Will the Minister clarify his expectation of what local authorities are required to provide by way of transient sites? Does he accept that most local authorities have interpreted their obligations to provide transient sites as meaning they are obliged to provide a number of small to medium transient sites which would comprise five to 15 bays? Does he accept that the Traveller accommodation plans which he has approved would not comprehend the very large number of Travellers such as that outlined by Deputy Hayes? Will he clarify whether local authorities are required to provide transient sites to deal with such numbers? Does he agree—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are running out of time.

Mr. Gilmore

—that the movement of large numbers of Travellers is undermining the ability of local authorities to deal with Traveller accommodation?

Mr. Molloy

It is neither acceptable nor reasonable that a group of 60 or so Travellers would arrive in a particular area with the expectation that transient sites would be made available for them. That is not provided for in the guidelines issued to local authorities in which the Department indicated that the maximum site size should be 20 bays. Deputy Mitchell appears to be of the opinion that because permanent halting sites are provided for Traveller families, they should not be allowed to move from them. The whole idea of halting sites was that Travellers would be able to keep their caravans on the halting sites and move during the summer. If official sites are not provided for Travellers when they are on the move, difficulties will arise. A large group of 50 or 60 at one time is exceptional.

Ms O. Mitchell

It is not.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We have far exceeded the time for this question.

Mr. Molloy

In its first progress report, the committee to monitor and co-ordinate the implementation of the recommendations of the task force on the Travelling community recommends that the operation of the 1998 Act should be reviewed in 2002, two years into the delivery of the Traveller accommodation programmes. Arrangements for carrying out such a review will be considered in due course.

Mr. Gilmore

Will the Minister inform the House the number of Traveller accommodation units provided since the adoption of Traveller accommodation plans?

Mr. Molloy

The question refers to plans to undertake a review of the Traveller accommodation plans which have only recently been adopted. We are now in the implementation period. Statistics have already been published and are available in the Oireachtas Library. I would be happy to obtain any further figures the Deputy requires.

Mr. Gilmore

My question was not a difficult one.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Question No. 43 does not specifically request the information the Deputy now seeks.

Mr. Hayes

I would like to hear the Minister's response on the review of the Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act, 1998. Parts of that Act dealt with transient sites. How many transient sites have been accepted in the plans put before him throughout the local authority system? Will he accept it is virtually impossible to control a situation where a large number of transient trading Travellers move into an area and are given accommodation by the local authority as a matter of right? Will he consider reimbursing local authorities who have to pay substantial sums of money to reinstate public lands where such transient Traveller traders have caused upheaval?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has moved outside the remit of the question.

Mr. Hayes

The first part of my question is most certainly within the remit of the question.

Mr. Molloy

In their accommodation programmes, each local authority is required to assess the need based on the count of Traveller families in the area, the historical position regarding movement of Travellers in the area and make an assessment at local level as to how many spaces need to be provided in the transient sites. That is a matter for each local authority and not for the Minister. There is a large number of plans available from local authorities, county councils and county boroughs. I would be happy to supply the information, if the Deputy does not have access to it, on the number that have proposals for the provision of transient sites. It is a critical element in the accommodation programme for Travellers. As well as providing the permanent hard stands, group housing and ordinary housing accommodation generally, there is this necessity because of their culture—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We must conclude.

Mr. Molloy

—which we all accept, to provide adequate transient sites at specific locations around the country. We can review the situation as it goes on. There is an absence of such sites at present.

Mr. Hayes

Does that apply to Travellers outside the jurisdiction? Do local authorities have a duty of care to Travellers outside the jurisdiction who come from, say, Manchester or Birmingham and manage to do a great deal of work while they are here?

Mr. Molloy

Traveller families here have traditionally had relations—

Mr. Hayes

Do local authorities have a duty—

Mr. Molloy

The answer is "yes". There is movement over and back. They are accepted in England when they travel there. Is the Deputy saying they should be banned from coming here?

Mr. Hayes

No.