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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 21 Jun 2001

Vol. 538 No. 5

Vocational Education (Amendment) Bill, 2000: Report and Final Stages.

Amendment No. 2 is related to amendment No. 1. Is it agreed that amendments Nos. 1 and 2 may be discussed together? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 3, line 12, after "1930," to insert "THE EDUCATION ACT, 1998, THE REGIONAL TECHNICAL COLLEGES ACT, 1992, AND THE DUBLIN INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY ACT, 1992,".

Deputy Creed is unable to be present for this debate due to the illness of his father. I send my good wishes to him.

These are technical amendments necessitated by amendments Nos. 33, 34 and 35. They provide for amendments to the Regional Technical Colleges Act, 1992, the Dublin Institute of Technology Act, 1992 and the Education Act, 1998. Amendment No. 1 provides that the long Title of the Bill be amended to reflect changes in the nature and scope of the Bill. Amendment No. 2 provides for the citation of the relevant sections of this Bill in conjunction with those Acts.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 3, to delete lines 19 to 21 and substitute the following:

"(2) (a)The Vocational Education Acts, 1930 to 1999, and this Act may be cited together as the Vocational Education Acts, 1930 to 2001, and shall be construed together as one Act.

(b)The Education Act, 1998, and section 33 may be cited together as the Education Acts, 1998 and 2001.

(c)The Regional Technical Colleges Acts, 1992 to 1999, and section 34 may be cited together as the Regional Technical Colleges Acts, 1992 to 2001.

(d)The Dublin Institute of Technology Acts, 1992 and 1994, and section 35 may be cited together as the Dublin Institute of Technology Acts, 1992 to 2001.”.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments Nos. 17, 18 and 19 are related to amendment No. 3. Is it agreed that amendments Nos. 3, 17, 18 and 19 be discussed together? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 4, between lines 8 and 9, to insert the following:

"‘the Irish Vocational Education Association' means a body consisting of vocational education committees, and recognised by the Minister for the purposes of this Act;".

This is a technical amendment providing for the definition of the Irish Vocational Education Association for the purposes of this Bill. This amendment is made following the debate on Committee Stage on the role of the IVEA for consultative purposes. Deputies made the case that the IVEA should have a clear role for consultative purposes where the Minister makes regulations for the purpose of providing for elections to vocational education committees. I indicated on Committee Stage that I was disposed to making such amendments and I have provided for this in amendment No. 17, which provides for legal clarity as to the position of the IVEA for the purpose of that consultation.

Deputies might recall that I introduced an amendment on Committee Stage which provided that the Minister would consult the IVEA when preparing regulations in relation to elections to be held under section 7. Initially I provided that the IVEA would be consulted only in relation to the election of the local authority members to vocational education committees. On balance and having considered the points made by the Deputies at the time, I am persuaded that it is more appropriate that the Bill contain a more encompassing reference which would allow for a general right of consultation for the IVEA on every category of regulations to be drawn up under this subsection. The IVEA has a long tradition of representing the interests and views of the VEC sector and its experience and expertise will be of great assistance in the preparation of such regulations.

Amendment No. 17 provides for the reference to sub-committees to be removed from this section. It is a technical amendment which removes an anomaly in the Bill. The Bill provides that the provisions of the 1930 Act in relation to sub-committees shall be repealed and that from the date of enactment of this legislation, all sub-committees shall be established in accordance with section 28. There is, therefore, no need to refer to sub-committees in this section.

I thank the Minister for his kind wishes for Mr. Donal Creed. I welcome the fact that he has included many of the amendments put forward on Committee Stage.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 4, to delete lines 22 and 23.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 32 is related to amendment No. 5. Is it agreed that amendments Nos. 5 and 32 be discussed together? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 5:

In page 5, to delete lines 32 to 36 and substitute the following:

"(a)9 members elected by–

(i) he council of the county borough being the borough vocational education area for which that committee is the vocational education committee, or

(ii) the council of the county being or including the county vocational educational area for which that committee is the vocational education committee,

as may be appropriate, from among the members of the council concerned,".

Amendment No. 32 provides a mechanism whereby the Minister may realign the boundaries of Dún Laoghaire vocational education area, as set out in the 1930 Act, to become coterminus with the area of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown county area as established under the 1993 local government Act.

While I am happy that the current arrangement is working well and it is not my intention at this time to alter the geographical remit of Dún Laoghaire VEC in any way, I recognise there is a case for realigning the boundaries of that VEC to correspond with the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown county area. This amendment provides a mechanism that will allow this to be done if and when it is considered necessary or desirable. I am sensitive to the concerns of all involved in such a move and take this opportunity to reassure them that this amendment also provides for a wide ranging and comprehensive consultation process prior to any changes to the boundaries of Dún Laoghaire vocational education area.

Amendment No. 5 is a technical amendment necessitated by amendment No. 32. It is designed to accommodate any future changes to the area under the remit of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown VEC as may arise in accordance with the provisions of amendment No. 32.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments Nos. 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15 and 16 are related to amendment No. 6. Is it agreed that we discuss amendments Nos. 6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15 and 16 together? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 6:

In page 6, to delete lines 10 and 11 and substitute the following:

"(d) 2 members elected by members of the staff of the committee, one of whom shall be a member of the teaching staff and one a member of the non-teaching staff, and”.

In amendments Nos. 10 and 15, I meet the issues raised by Deputy Creed on Committee Stage which are reflected in amendments Nos. 6, 11, 12, 13 and 16.

There was a detailed discussion on Committee Stage concerning the composition of vocational education committees and, in particular, the categories of bodies that may nominate persons for appointment to vocational education committees. The Bill as initiated provided, in addition to statutory representation for members of local authorities, parents and teachers, that vocational education committees would include in their membership four extra members representative of students, voluntary organisations and local business interests. Deputies expressed particular concern about the representation on vocational education committees of Irish language interests, classes of staff that may not be represented by those staff elected to the committee and the trustees of community colleges under the remit of vocational education committees.

Having considered the matter further, I am happy to include explicit references to these groups in this section. I have also taken the opportunity to widen the scope of the original provision even further. Deputy Shortall made the point that the language used in the Bill was somewhat archaic and did not reflect the reality of community organisations today. The original reference to voluntary organisations, for example, would not necessarily have provided an opportunity for a VEC to benefit from the real and active role of the many community organisations operating at local level. The groups working under the aegis of ADM are a successful example of such groups.

The proposed amendment also takes on board the points raised by the Deputies in amendments Nos. 6, 7, 11, 12, 13 and 16.

I thank the Minister for going some way in accommodating the points made on Committee Stage. We are moving from a situation where four members would be selected from three possible groups to selecting four members from five possible groups. I welcome the fact that Irish language interests are specifically provided for in the amendment.

I seek clarification on the issue I raised regarding staff representation, the need to ensure that there would be an equality of representation between teaching staff and parents, and the need to accommodate a representative of the non-teaching staff. Will the Minister clarify that the four persons selected will come from four of those five categories? It is not absolutely clear from the wording. Would it be possible, for example, to select those four people from two categories? I would certainly like to see a situation where there would be four people selected from four of the five different categories.

I am also concerned that while the amendment goes some way towards meeting the need for representation of non-teaching staff, there is no guarantee that a non-teaching staff representative will be included on all vocational education committees. I would like to have seen that happening. I could see a situation occurring where the trustees of community colleges, might be represented on those 25% or so of vocational education committees which have community colleges and the others having a non-teaching staff representative, but my preference would have been to increase the numbers and provide for equal numbers of elected representatives and others. We do not need to ensure always that public representatives are in a majority on statutory bodies and sometimes it would be healthier if there was an equal number of both. However, I accept that the Minister has gone some way to take on board the concerns raised. I just want clarification on that point, that one could not have two representatives coming from one category.

I join Deputy Shortall in welcoming the fact that the Minister has taken on board certain proposals made on Committee Stage, particularly in providing for a representative of the Irish language interests. It is necessary to provide for recognition of this category. In so far as County Galway is concern, half the schools within the VEC system are scoileanna lán Gaeilge and, therefore, it is important that they have an identifiable representative on the VEC.

At an earlier stage, the Minister said that he wanted the membership of the VEC to be inclusive. I see no better way to recognise this than by appointing members of the staff. It is important that the teaching staff would have a representative on the VEC, and that the administrative staff would also have a representative or some other staff member on the roll within the VEC. It is important that these groups are included in the representation. The Minister stated that in those amendments he changed some of the language used previously and I welcome that also. Amendment No. 6 has been adequately catered for.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 7 not moved.

Amendment No. 8 is in the name of Deputy Creed. Amendment No. 9 is an alternative and amendment No. 14 is related. Therefore we will discuss amendments Nos. 8, 9 and 14 together by agreement.

I move amendment No. 8:

In page 6, to delete lines 12 to 19 and substitute the following:

"(e) 4 members appointed by those elected at paragraphs (a), (b), (c) and (d) after consultation with the council of the county borough, being a borough vocational education area, or with the council of the county, being or including a county vocational education area as may be appropriate, from among those persons nominated by such bodies as in the opinion of those elected pursuant to paragraphs (a), (b), (c) and (d) above are representatives of–”

I ask the Minister to clarify his position on amendment No. 8.

I have considered the points the Deputy made previously on Committee Stage on the role of the local authority in appointing the four additional members to the VEC. As I mentioned previously, they go to the issue of the place of local government in the legislation and in the VEC sector as a whole. In revising the composition of vocational education committees in this Bill, I have provided for a major enhancement of the role of the vocational education committees through the inclusion on a statutory basis of the partners in education on vocational education committees, not to displace the local government but to complement them.

The voice for the partners is a welcome and necessary addition to vocational education committees and my amendments, amendments Nos. 10 and 15, which were discussed previously, provide even greater scope for local authorities to consider the interests and views of a wide range of diverse groups when appointing the four additional members to the VEC. As Deputy Shortall raised the point, we cannot guarantee that an administrative person would be included but if two teachers are already appointed, then they at least must consider the administrative person at that stage.

However, the VEC must still remain the servant of the local community, not necessarily that of any particular interest group. We have in this sector a unique opportunity to give direct expression to the voice of the local community by means of the judgment of its democratically elected representatives. Where such an opportunity exists, it should be utilised to the full.

Accordingly, responsibility for the appointment of the community interest to the VEC should remain with the representatives of the local community, that is, the local authority members. In expressing this view, I am mindful of the long and distinguished contribution which local government has made to the VEC sector.

The position of local authorities was enshrined in the original VEC legislation. There were sound reasons for so doing. At that time the local authority sector provided the bedrock for the development of what was then a relatively new and untried experiment in Irish education. Their inclusion provided the VEC sector with a direct link with local communities, a link constantly reinforced and revitalised by local elections. Furthermore, that direct link in turn created the moral authority for the vocational education committees to continue to undertake their pioneering work in the field of local education, not least the development of adult education in which they have been very active as well as the institute of technology structures.

Will the Minister clarify the point I raised the last time I spoke about whether the intention is to have one person from four of the five nominating categories to ensure that there is adequate representation? Could it arise that there would be two from one category?

That would be a judgment of the local authority.

Is it the Minister's intention that there would be four chosen from the five representative groups?

Yes, but it would be up to them to decide which ones.

Could they ignore this? Are these just guidelines?

My amendment provides for per sons carrying on various trades, professions, etc. They would have to decide which of those they would choose.

Perhaps I am not explaining myself properly. There are five categories from which representatives would be drawn. Would it be possible to have two or three representatives from the industrial area and no student representative, for example, or is it the intention to have each of the four drawn from separate areas?

It would be up to them to make the decision and that would vary in the circumstances of different areas. They could, for instance, take two business people if they considered that to be necessary. They would have considerable scope in that regard.

We appear to be slipping into a Committee Stage debate on this.

It is important the Minister puts his intention on the record and that there would be broad representation, including all of the various interests. Presumably there is a reason they are included in the Bill, with references made to them. Presumably the intention is to ensure they have representation and that vocational education committees have regard to the Minister's wishes.

That is the intention in the four categories but ultimately the decision will be left with them and they would have flexibility in that area.

Established practice has served well. Nominating bodies nominate their candidates who are sanctioned and approved by the elected members. I would not like a deviation from that practice.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 9:

In page 6, line 16, to delete "after consultation with" and substitute "on the nomination of".

This amendment has been discussed with amendment No. 8.

I seek clarification on a point from the Minister.

I would prefer if we commenced a proper Report Stage debate rather than hold another Committee Stage debate.

I appreciate that. I asked a question but did not receive an answer and I was keen to get it before turning to this amendment. The Bill gives control to local authorities for more than 13 of the 17 places. This is an undue influence for public representatives. If we are serious about having real partnership within the education system this means giving a say, influence and control to the other partners outside of the elected public representatives. For that reason I favour the idea that the nine nominated public representatives and councillors, the two parents and two staff members form a core group that would nominate the four outside members.

On Committee Stage I expressed concern that there would be a repeat of what happened in the past, that is, the local county council would make appointments often on political grounds and depending on people's persuasions, rather than on the expertise or experience they can bring to membership of the VEC. In view of this it is important that those other partners, the parents and teachers, have a direct say in the composition of the committees. That is why this amendment proposes in line 16 to delete the words "after consultation with" and substitute "on the nomination of" the core group to which I have referred.

There are categories where there are direct nominations but in this case there is to be a change. Consultation with the persons elected under each of the categories nominated by these bodies will be required. I assume the people nominated in that relevant group will be selected. Previously the people concerned were simply selected by the VEC members.

Question, "That the words proposed to be deleted stand," put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 10:

In page 6, to delete lines 21 and 25 and substitute the following:

"(ii) any class of trustees of community colleges maintained by the vocational education committee concerned,

(iii) members of the staff of the vocational education committee (other than members of staff belonging to the same class of members of staff as either of the members elected under paragraph (d)),

(iv) voluntary organisations, community organisations or Irish language interests, or

(v) persons carrying on, in places within the vocational education area concerned, trades, professions or commercial or industrial activities.".

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 11 not moved.

I move amendment No. 12:

In page 6, to delete lines 36 and 37 and substitute the following:

"(c) 2 members elected by members of the staff of the committee, one of whom shall be a member of the teaching staff and one a member of the non-teaching staff, and”.

Will the Minister clarify if one or other of the bodies concerned will have a place for a member of the teaching and administrative staff, respectively?

Two members are elected by members of the staff of the committee.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment Nos. 13 and 14 not moved.

I move amendment No. 15:

In page 6, to delete lines 45 and 48 and substitute the following:

"(ii) any class of trustees of community colleges maintained by the vocational education committee concerned,

(iii) members of the staff of the vocational education committee (other than members of staff belonging to the same class of members of staff as either of the members elected under paragraph (c)),

(iv) voluntary organisations, community organisations or Irish language interests, or

(v) persons carrying on, in places within the vocational education area concerned, trades, professions or commercial or industrial activities.".

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 16 not moved.

I move amendment No. 17:

In page 7, between lines 3 and 4, to insert the following:

(a) the Irish Vocational Education Association,”.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 18:

In page 7, lines 11 and 12, to delete "and the Irish Vocational Education Association".

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 19 not moved.

I move amendment No. 20:

In page 8, line 44, after "plan" to insert "which should inter alia contribute to the realisation of national objectives in relation to the promotion of the Irish language".

The objective of this amendment has been met in that Irish language interests have been catered for.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 21:

In page 9, between lines 26 and 27, to insert the following:

"(2) ( a)A vocational education committee may, with the consent of the Minister, cause such one or more private companies to be formed and registered under the Companies Acts, 1963 to 1999, as it considers appropriate, to perform such of its functions, as it considers appropriate.

(b)A company formed and registered pursuant to paragraph (a) shall be wholly owned by the vocational education committee concerned.

(c)The memorandum and articles of association of a company formed and registered pursuant to paragraph (a) shall be in such form consistent with this Act as may be determined by the vocational education committee concerned with the consent of the Minister and the Minister for Finance.

(d)For the purposes of this subsection a company shall be wholly owned by a vocational education committee if it has no members other than that vocational education committee and its nominees.”.

Deputies will recall that on Committee Stage I signalled my intention to introduce amendments on Report Stage which would allow vocational education committees and ITs to set up limited companies in pursuit of their functions. This amendment provides a means for vocational education committees to do this. Currently vocational education committees have no statutory power to enter into limited companies. In recent yeas, however, organisations have increasingly used the device of establishing such a company as a means of engaging in particular activities while providing some security for the organisation in the event of the project failing.

I am also aware that much EU project funding is sometimes conditional upon the use of a limited company as a vehicle to undertake a project. In the absence of a statutory provision, vocational education committees have had to forego participation in otherwise worthwhile projects. This is a radical new development for the VEC sector and I consider it important that at this time safeguards should be put in place to ensure this provision will not be abused. Accordingly, the amendment provides that the establishment of such companies by a VEC shall require ministerial sanction and any such arrangements will be subject to ministerial guidelines.

Will the Minister outline instances where it is necessary for vocational edu cation committees to have a limited company status to perform a function? He refers to EU project funding. As it stands, vocational education committees have substantial EU funding for various projects. Why is it necessary to accredit limited company status to vocational education committees?

The Minister said the sanction of the Minister for Finance is required for a company wholly owned by the VEC. Is the sanction of the Minister for Finance also required in the case of a company that is part owned by the VEC, for example, a joint venture? What are the accountability arrangements if others are involved?

They can only enter wholly owned companies. It is in effect a protection for the State. Regarding the more general point, the provision will ensure that they can avail of EU funds. In the past, they often could not avail of certain EU funds because of requirements that are designed to protect the EU. The vocational education committees could not enter the necessary company arrangements and they had to forego certain funds. However, universities do not face that difficulty. One would normally expect the Department of Finance not to be in favour of this provision because it gives vocational education committees wider opportunities. However, as a safeguard, the sanction of the Minister and the Minister for Finance will be required. If it involves a worthwhile and reasonable project, there is no reason they should not undertake it in the same way as a university, etc.

I referred yesterday to the reorganisation in the Department. One of those measures will ensure that IT issues will come under the Higher Education Authority in the context of funding arrangements and controls. This will regularise that area. At present, vocational education committees do not have the power to be involved and, consequently, they missed out on many projects in the past.

Are vocational education committees excluded from involvement in any type of joint venture, for example, with a company that involves people from outside?

Yes, they are precluded from joint ventures.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 22:

In page 12, line 18, after "staff." to insert "The performance by the chief executive officer of the functions outlined in this section may be the subject of an appeal to the vocational education committee by an interested party or their representative.".

It is necessary to include a mechanism for an appeal regarding the performance of the chief executive officer's functions. It would be an iron handed approach if no appeal mechanism was included and an aggrieved party did not have an opportunity to appeal a decision of a chief executive officer. I ask the Minister to consider this point.

This matter was discussed at length on Committee Stage and the Minister undertook to examine it further. There is concern among teaching staff that the Bill as it stands does not make any provision for an appeal system if a staff member has a dispute with the decision of a chief executive officer. In terms of an appeal mechanism, a right of appeal to the VEC itself is probably the most satisfactory arrangement and it has been requested by staff.

Teaching staff do not have access to the traditional labour relations machinery that is available to private sector workers and it appears the Bill does not contain an appeals mechanism. Teachers may be able to appeal to the Minister, but that is not a desirable option. I support the amendment that would ensure there is a right of appeal to the VEC itself in the event of a dispute or dissatisfaction with a decision of the chief executive officer.

In relation to the point raised by Deputy Shortall, I refer the Deputies to section 15(5) which states:

Subject to sections 7 and 8 of the Vocational Education (Amendment) Act, 1944, and section 11, a chief executive officer shall, in addition to the function conferred on him or her by or under this Act or any other enactment (whether passed before or after the passing of this Act), perform any function relating to the control, supervision, service, remuneration, privileges or superannuation of members of the staff of that vocational education committee, or any one or more of such members of staff.

This provision is subject to sections 7 and 8 of the Vocational Education (Amendment) Act, 1944, which contain strong provisions in relation to inquiries through the Minister. I assure the Deputy that this area is already well covered. A sworn inquiry must take place if there is any argument about a matter.

In line with the philosophy of the Minister's decisions this week with regard to devolving functions from the centre of the Department, it would make sense to include an appeal mechanism at a lower level. If a staff member has a concern, he or she should have the option of going to the VEC rather than the Minister. Most issues probably would be resolved at local level if there was a local appeal mechanism instead of the need for a sworn inquiry and an appeal to the Minister. It makes sense to keep it at local level if matters can be resolved there.

I appreciate that the Deputies want to have a simpler appeals mechanism. I have considered those points in relation to the role of the VEC in staffing matters. As Deputies are aware, I have provided in the Bill that the management of staff will, henceforth, be an executive function. As such, it will be the responsibility of the chief executive officer of each VEC to ensure that all staff functions are carried out in an efficient, effective and fair manner. Furthermore, those existing protections for staff already contained in the body of VEC legislation, in particular those in the 1944 Act, remain and will be unaffected by this legislation.

Teachers in VEC schools are, in the main represented by the Teachers' Union of Ireland which is a party to the teachers' conciliation and arbitration scheme through which national agreements in relation to terms and conditions of the employment of teachers are negotiated. I am, therefore, satisfied that there are well established protections already in place in many instances and that where such do not exist this Bill provides chief executive officers with sufficient flexibility to develop and implement local appeals procedures. When considering the need for local appeals procedures chief executive officers must have regard to the need to ensure that staff are treated in an equitable and fair manner at all times. It could be unhelpful to prescribe a particular form or process in the legislation.

It is important that a mechanism for appeals by staff to the VEC be included in the Bill. While I accept what the Minister says about other mechanisms which are in place, they are so far out of reach as to be of no use in the ordinary situation. It would be totally unwieldy to appeal to the Minister to resolve a simple difficulty. Such a difficulty could be resolved by a simple appeal to the committee. For that reason it is necessary to press the amendment.

Amendment put.

Barnes, Monica.Barrett, Seán.Bell, Michael.Belton, Louis J.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.

Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Burke, Ulick.Connaughton, Paul.Currie, Austin.Durkan, Bernard.Gilmore, Éamon.Higgins, Jim. Tá–continued

Higgins, Joe.Kenny, Enda.McCormack, Pádraic.McDowell, Derek.McGinley, Dinny.Mitchell, Jim.Mitchell, Olivia.Naughten, Denis.Penrose, William.

Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Ryan, Seán.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Wall, Jack.

Níl

Ahern, Michael.Ardagh, Seán.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John (Wexford).Byrne, Hugh.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cullen, Martin.Daly, Brendan.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Flood, Chris.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Killeen, Tony.

Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Conor.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John J.Martin, Micheál.Moffatt, Thomas.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Kennedy, Michael.O'Malley, Desmond.O'Rourke, Mary.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Bradford and Stagg; Níl, Deputies S. Brennan and Briscoe.
Amendment declared lost.

Amendments Nos. 23, 24 and 25 are related and may be discussed together by agreement.

I move amendment No. 23:

In page 12, after line 53, to insert the following:

"17.–(1) The chief executive officer of a vocational education committee shall, whenever required to do so by the committee of Dáil Éireann established under the Standing Orders of Dáil Éireann to examine and report to Dáil Éireann on the appropriation accounts and reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General (hereafter in this section referred to as the ‘Committee'), give evidence to that committee on–

(a) the regularity and propriety of the transactions recorded or required to be recorded in any book or other record of account subject to audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General that that vocational education committee is required by this Act to prepare,

(b) the economy and efficiency of the vocational education committee in the use of its resources,

(c) the systems, procedures and practices employed by the vocational education committee for the purpose of evaluating the effectiveness of its operations, and

(d) any matter affecting the vocational education committee referred to in a special report of the Comptroller and Auditor General under section 11(2) of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Amendment) Act, 1993, or in any other report of the Comptroller and Auditor General (in so far as it relates to a matter specified in paragraph (a), (b) or (c)) that is laid before Dáil Éireann.

(2) In the performance of his or her duties under this section, the chief executive officer shall not question or express an opinion on the merits of any policy of the Government or a Minister of the Government or on the merits of the objectives of such a policy.".

The purpose of these three amendments is to copperfasten the accountability of vocational education committees to committees of the House, particularly the Committee of Public Accounts. Amendments Nos. 23 and 24 are based on provisions in other legislation recently passed, namely, the Human Rights Commission Act and the Employment Equality Act, 1998. Amendment No. 25 has been tabled on the advice of the Comptroller and Auditor General's office and clears up any potential misunderstandings about the position of the chief executive officer of the VEC as accounting officer in the context of the Comptroller and Auditor General Act, 1923. The amendment ensures that the chief executive officer will act formally as the accounting officer.

I welcome this amendment in view of the fact that in the recent past spending irregularities have arisen in certain vocational education committees. It is a very welcome amendment that will copperfasten accountability and place responsibility as accounting officer in the hands of the chief executive officer. On that basis circumstances that have arisen in the past, for example, in the case of the Westmeath VEC, will not be allowed to recur.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 24:

In page 12, after line 53, to insert the following:

"18.–(1)In this section ‘Committee' means a committee appointed by either House of the Oireachtas or jointly by both Houses of the Oireachtas (other than the committee referred to in section 17 or the Committee on Members' Interests of Dáil Éireann or the Committee on Members' Interests of Seanad Éireann ) or a subcommittee of such a committee.

(2) Subject to subsection (3), the chief executive officer of a vocational education committee shall, at the request in writing of a committee, attend before it to give account for the general administration of the vocational education committee concerned.

(3) The chief executive officer of a vocational educational committee shall not be required to give account before a committee for any matter which is or has been or may at a future time be the subject of proceedings before a court or tribunal in the State.

(4) Where the chief executive officer of a vocational education committee is of the opinion that a matter in respect of which the chief executive officer is requested to give an account before a committee is a matter to which subsection (3) applies, he or she shall inform the committee of that opinion and the reasons for the opinion and, unless the information is conveyed to the committee at a time when the chief executive officer is before it, the information shall be so conveyed in writing.

(5) Where the chief executive officer of a vocational education committee has informed a committee of his or her opinion in accordance with subsection (4) and the committee does not withdraw the request referred to in subsection (2) in so far as it relates to a matter the subject of that opinion–

(a) the chief executive officer may, not later than 21 days after being informed by the committee of its decision not to do so, apply to the High Court in a summary manner for determination of the question whether the matter is one to which subsection (3) applies, or

(b) the chairperson of the committee may, on behalf of the Committee, make such an application,

and the High Court shall determine the matter.

(6) Pending the determination of an application under subsection (5), the chief executive officer of the vocational education committee concerned shall not attend before the Committee to give account for the matter the subject of the application.

(7) If the High Court determines that the matter concerned is one to which subsection (3) applies, the Committee shall withdraw the request referred to in subsection (2), but if the High Court determines that subsection (3) does not apply, the chief executive officer of the vocational education committee concerned shall attend before the committee to give account for the matter.”.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 25:

In page 12, after line 53, to insert the following:

"19.–Section 19 of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Amendment) Act, 1993, shall apply to vocational education committees as it applies to Departments of State and accordingly references therein to a Department, an accounting officer and appropriation accounts shall be construed as including references to a vocational education committee, a chief executive officer of a vocational education committee and accounts of a vocational education committee.".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 26:

In page 18, between lines 44 and 45, to insert the following:

"(2) In exercising its functions pursuant to subsection (1), a vocational education committee shall have regard to the desirability of including members nominated from the various constituent groups of the committee on any subcommittee.”.

This revisits the principle I spoke of earlier of ensuring that the various partners in education are represented at all levels as well as on the committee itself. They would, therefore, be represented on any sub-committees set up by a VEC. To date other partners played no role on sub-committees of vocational education committees, some of which are very important. If we establish the principle that there should be broad representation on the committee, it follows logically that there should be the same kind of representation on the sub-committees. The other partners have every right to be represented at every level in decision making. For that reason I propose that we include the amendment, which does not tie anybody's hands. It sets down the principle that there should be broad representation on all decision making bodies.

I support the amendment. In Deputy Creed's amendment it is clear there is a recognition of the difficulties that were manifest in the past. Sub-committees were very often notorious for the manner in which their members were selected. I hope the Minister will see the necessity for including the amendment in the name of either Deputy Shortall or Deputy Creed, both of which would guarantee that the sub-committees as well as the committee would be composed of representative groups.

I have carefully considered the matter of the composition of the sub-committees of vocational education committees since the debate on Committee Stage. The Deputies are proposing that the VEC will no longer have the right to determine the composition of a sub-committee. That would not be appropriate. The remit of sub-committees under this Bill is varied. There may well be occasions when it would not only be desirable but also effective to limit the number of members of a sub-committee to two or three, for instance, a sub-committee exploring a proposal and reporting back to a VEC.

I appreciate that in amendment No. 27 Deputy Creed has provided that VEC members may waive their right to be included on a sub-committee. However, I consider the alternative of simply leaving it to the discretion of the VEC to be preferable. On Committee Stage I undertook to examine the possibility of including a reference in this section to the need for vocational education committees to have regard to the principle of partnership in the formation of sub-committees. On reflection the principle of partnership is enshrined and given expression by the composition of the VEC membership itself. As the establishment of a sub-committee is a reserved function and therefore requires a decision by the VEC in relation to the size and membership of the sub-committee, I am happy that the views of all partners will be considered in the making of such decisions and that, where the VEC considers it appropriate, sub-committees will reflect the composition of the VEC itself. While I strongly support the principle of partnership that now underpins the whole education sector, it has been and remains my view that vocational education committees should organise their own business and that rather than restricting the capacity of vocational education committees to manage their affairs, this legislation should accommodate them in so doing.

I am disappointed at the Minister's response because we discussed this at length on Committee Stage. It is all very well having broad principles on partnership but it is important that principles are also applied in the detail of the performance of functions. My intention is not to bring about circumstances where a VEC would no longer have the right to determine the composition of its sub-committees but quite the reverse. It is somewhat disingenuous to suggest that I was trying to do so. The wording says simply that the VEC should "have regard to the desirability of including members nominated from the various constituent groups." If we are serious about partnership we will ensure that at least some of partners who are not public representatives will be represented on the sub-committees. It is a retrograde step not to set down that principle in relation to the composition of sub-committees.

The practice in the past has been that sub-committees have not always worked well because they have been controlled exclusively by public representatives, very often of a particular persuasion. That has brought vocational education committees and their functions and procedures into disrepute on occasions. We should have moved beyond that putting in place full, open and accountable procedures. That includes making statutory provision for each of the partners involved. Otherwise it amounts to no more than paying lip service to the principle. It is unfortunate that the Minister is not prepared to yield on the matter. I will press my amendment.

There is statutory provision for the parties on the committees. That is the change.

Not the sub-committees.

They are on the committees so they can decide the sub-committees. They have been brought into the main committees by statute.

The Minister is aware of what happens when they are controlled by politicians.

That has changed.

Since it is now 6.30 p.m., I am required to put the following question in accordance with an order of the Dáil of this day:

"That the amendments set down by the Minister for Education and Science and not disposed of are hereby made to the Bill, that Fourth Stage is hereby completed and that the Bill is hereby passed".

Question put and agreed to.

The Bill will now be sent to the Seanad.

Sitting suspended at 6.30 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.
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