Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Jun 2001

Vol. 539 No. 2

Adjournment Debate. - Community Employment Schemes.

Mr. U. Burke

I thank you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, for selecting this motion tonight and thank the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Tom Kitt, for coming here to reply.

This issue is ongoing. The Government has indicated for some time it will implement this scheme. It is now the end of the school year and we are talking about the transfer of funding at the beginning of September. It is not good enough that school authorities do not know the amount involved other than the global figure of £45 million. A number of secretaries, caretakers and school assistants are involved in these worthwhile schemes. The Minister has not indicated if each school will be allocated its grant on a per capita basis. If that is the case, will the Minister of State indicate the exact amount per capita each school will get? If the global figure of £45 million is divided up, it will mean approximately £10,000 per school. That is a totally unsatisfactory position for school board management and operators of the schemes.

What is the situation as regards FÁS? We know the Minister, Deputy Harney, does not like it and it is the policy of her party. The Minister of State's party, the main party in the Government, is going along with it. What is her policy on community employment schemes? These schemes are being abolished slowly but surely. Small schools are being affected. Will the health services be affected next? Will the Minister of State acknowledge that people with disabilities are being denied personal assistants? I hope he denies that is happening. Will the environment also be affected? It is totally unsatisfactory as we face into 1 September. Will supervisors be made redundant? School assistants and the others involved in schools are part of the delivery of a good service.

There will be a shortfall in terms of funding, according to the figures available to us unless the Minister of State tells us otherwise. There will be a major shortfall in terms of facilities and personnel available to school management. The alternative to paying current labour market wages, which is what the Minister wants to do, is the community employment scheme. Schools do not have the capacity to make up that shortfall. I will give the Minister of State one example of a small school. There are 101 disadvantaged children and 32 non-nationals in an infant school which has 290 four to seven year old students. The total amount for that school which has a secretary, who is not on the community employment scheme, four classroom assistants and one caretaker, would be £72,000. The grants available amount to £16,000. The shortfall for that school in September will be £56,000. That is unacceptable. Such funding is beyond the reach of most schools. It is time the Minister for Education and Science knew the exact amounts and told the schools. The Government must decide how it will bridge the gap.

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Mr. T. Kitt)

There are currently approximately 33,500 participants on community employment. As a result of the restructuring of the programme in 1999, the numbers employed on community employment are reducing over a five year period from an average provision of 37,500 in 1999 down to 28,000 by the end of 2003.

In the context of the commitment under the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness and the Government's decision in 1999 to restructure community employment, consultations have been taking place with the social partners through the PPF standing committee on the labour market on the mainstreaming of essential services currently provided by CE programmes. The number of long-term unemployed persons available to participate in community employment has reduced dramatically in recent years, partially due to the success of community employment and similar reintegration programmes.

Discussions with the Department of Education and Science about school services are at an advanced stage and it is intended to begin the mainstreaming process and transfer CE funding freed up by the reduction in CE positions in schools to that Department in time for the next school year in September. The proposed mainstreaming of CE services will provide an increase in funding for schools over and above the additional resources already allocated by the Department of Education and Science for schools support services in the past year. School services will, after an appropriate transition period, be solely the responsibility of the Department of Education and Science.

Mr. U. Burke

Will the Department fund it?

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Minister of State to reply without interruption.

Mr. T. Kitt

CE projects providing school services, which include secretaries, caretakers and classroom assistants, will have participant levels reduced as a direct result of mainstreaming as it will no longer be possible for schools to avail of the CE programme to provide these services. However, it is intended that all such persons who opt to serve out their contracts will be facilitated in doing so.

Mr. U. Burke

What will happen after that?

Mr. T. Kitt

It is also envisaged that a liaison group will be established comprising representatives of FÁS and the Department of Education and Science to facilitate a smooth transition. Schools will have the flexibility to employ staff based on the identified needs of the individual schools, including retention of persons currently providing ancillary services. Every effort will be made to ensure this proposal will produce positive outcomes for CE participants and the education sector in general.

The mainstreaming of services now funded by CE moneys would begin the process of putting these backup services on a proper structured footing for the future. One of the effects of a transfer of funding to the Department of Education and Science would be to remove the anomalies in relation to the provision of secretarial and caretaking services for schools. For instance, certain schools currently have the benefit of secretarial and caretaking services under CE schemes and also receive a grant for such services from the Department of Education and Science, whereas other schools are solely dependent on the grants issued by that Department. Mainstreaming would transfer full responsibility for the funding of schools services to the Department of Education and Science which would ensure a uniform and equitable system of funding for such services. The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Woods, will announce precise details of the figures in due course.

Mr. U. Burke

Will he make up the shortfall?

Mr. T. Kitt

Under the proposed arrangements all schools, including those which have not benefited from CE funding, will receive additional funding. During the transition period some schools will receive the additional funding from the Department of Education and Science while still benefiting from the services of CE participants. CE participants currently working in schools participate in the programme for one year initially and, depending on their age and unem ployment record, may work up to a maximum of three years. My Department intends to ensure due recognition is given to the position of such CE participants' experience in schools in the final proposals.

Supervisors are employed by the sponsors of projects and these positions are funded by a grant from FÁS. The personnel concerned are not FÁS employees. Supervisors are afforded the same rights and protection under the employment Acts as other workers in the open labour market.

Mr. U. Burke

They will be made redundant.

Mr. T. Kitt

They are continually leaving the programme to avail of the opportunities that present themselves in the open labour market. However, where possible, supervisors who may be affected by the mainstreaming of schools services will be accommodated on other projects as vacancies arise. In addition, some social economy projects are likely to be in a position to offer employment when they are fully operational. It should be noted that it will be a matter for the social economy enterprise to choose the most suitable person for the position.

The Department has discussed the issue of supervisors becoming redundant as a result of the mainstreaming of CE services with trade union representatives and with groups of supervisors and will continue to update key stake-holders on developments. Current arrangements allow for FÁS funding for statutory redundancy payments only in cases where it is clear that sponsors are unable to meet these costs. The matter of redundancy payments to supervisors is being considered further in the overall context of the mainstreaming of CE essential services.