Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Oct 2001

Vol. 541 No. 5

Heritage Fund Bill, 2001: Second Stage (Resumed)

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Deasy:

This Bill is extremely elitist in that it deals with what we in the country regard as the Dublin 4 syndrome. Will the Minister indicate what moneys will be disbursed to the provinces, rather than just to the arty-farty section of society primarily centred on the south sides of our inner cities? We all love our heritage and we bemoan the fact that every day of the week it seems to go down the drain like rain water after a thunder storm. That happens without interference from Government agencies, by and large, and often without interference from local authorities. On some occasions local authorities may be responsible for the destruction of our heritage.

Every time I see an old building being bulldozed, an excavation taking place of a new road or a house building project, I ask myself, "Is there anybody supervising that work to see that our heritage is not being eroded, removed or destroyed?" I know at first hand of many instances where ancient national monuments have been destroyed wilfully, particularly by developers who know that if they report the finding of something historical it will hold up their work. They will suffer a financial loss as a result. It is only human nature that they would try to evade it, but people should have a civic spirit which would overcome their monetary concerns. They should have a civic spirit that would want to see valuable heritage retained. The Minister's Department does not have the resources or the personnel to supervise the safeguarding of our heritage and that is why I say the Bill is elitist.

I am concerned about our history. I am concerned that every time an old person in my neighbourhood, in my county or in any part of the country dies, a huge chunk of unrecorded history goes with them. I have said before that it is a disgrace that the work of the Irish Folklore Commission, which was set up shortly after the foundation of the State, is locked away in the vaults of University College Dublin. It is very difficult for someone down the country who wants to do some research to gain access to it. I am disgusted at that. It is not right that history, gathered in the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s and 1950s by the Irish Folklore Commission, is locked away and not freely available to libraries and other interested groups such as historical societies. There are recordings of interviews and first-hand accounts of the famine, the Fenian rising, the Land League, land grabbers and evictions. All that history is recorded but not available. If you go to your local county library you will not get it. It is here in Dublin and it is stowed away, as are many of our historical masterpieces which are in the National Museum or some other museum or centre here in Dublin. The Minister should open up this store of knowledge which has not been given back to the people in the provinces. It has been retained here and it is a disgrace.

This Bill means well but is very restricted in that it deals only with projects which will involve the spending of more than £250,000. That is a very considerable sum of money and undoubtedly there are some valuable works of art, artefacts and manuscripts that can be purchased and added to the store of national treasures. However, everyday history, recent and from earlier centuries, is being absolutely neglected and I would like to see that rectified. The Minister has a Department to address that, but she does not seem to be interested. I have repeatedly asked questions on this subject and I did not get any response. We are pawned off by being told that Dúchas has been given the task of seeing that these treasures are preserved. What I mean by treasures is our heritage. However, I do not see any practical work being done on the ground. I see buildings in my area being destroyed.

I would like the Minister to look into the following case. During a recent building development the remains of a 12th century church in my town, Dungarvan, were partly or largely removed. What a national treasure that is. I would also like her to inquire into what has happened and is happening with the restoration and opening up of a well at Shandon, near the very famous Dan Fraher Field. A well which is hundreds of years old and was the only water supply for the people of my town in the middle ages and later centuries has been covered up and abandoned. It will never be preserved. Those are simple things, but they are important. That is the spice of life as far as our history is concerned. That is our history.

What about the Geneva Barracks near Passage East in Country Waterford? History tells us that the Croppy Boy was hung there. That has been let go to wrack and ruin. Why are places like that not preserved? What about Lismore Castle, which I have referred to repeatedly in this House? It is one of the most historic buildings in the country, dating back many centuries. The owners are willing to see that the west wing of the castle is preserved and enhanced but the Minister refuses to make money available for that purpose. Perhaps some of the money to which the Minister is referring would be devoted to that project. It would require a couple of million pounds to restore it. It is one of the most imposing buildings that one will see in Ireland, but it is in need of extensive renovation.

Does the Minister intend to go outside Dublin to ensure heritage down the country is retained and enhanced? What about the liosanna that have been bulldozed away over the years? What about the different types of ring forts that have been eradicated, without anything having been done about it?

I have continuously pleaded in this House for the Government to set up a statutory body to ensure the strong ethnic links between the south east, particularly the Waterford estuary, and Newfoundland are retained and that their history be explored. What has happened? Nothing.

In 1996 or 1997, we appointed an honorary consul in Newfoundland. Other than that, I have not seen any tangible results of efforts to preserve the link. Tens of thousands of people from the Waterford estuary area settled in Newfoundland, as did people from south Kilkenny, south Tip perary, Wexford, south Carlow, east Waterford and Waterford city. The colony is still in existence and the emigrants' ancestors are still there in huge numbers. We pretend they do not exist, which is a huge dereliction of our historical past and a huge dereliction of our heritage. That is what annoys me about this Bill.

I have nothing against James Joyce. He is wonderful and his works are a national treasure, but why expend the moneys that are available on a very few national treasures and those centred in and around Dublin? Why not broaden the list of treasures that receive money? Why do people have to come from the country to the National Library or UCD to study the records? Why can they not be dispersed to the authorities throughout the country?

I spoke of the links between south east Ireland and Newfoundland. It makes me green with envy when I go to places like Nova Scotia and see the links that are retained between the Scottish Gaelic people and the Western Isles and Cape Breton and its surrounding islands. They put us to shame. We are a disgrace in comparison with what the Canadians, British, and Scottish in particular, have done. We are making no attempt to do something similar. I know that our spokesperson, Deputy McGinley, chairman of the Joint Committee on Heritage and the Irish Language, has been to that area and he knows what I am talking about. We have no pride in our history. We have no pride in our heritage. We are concerned only about bulldozing it down and ploughing it into the ground.

What the Minister is doing today has a praiseworthy aspect. The thing that counts to the ordinary Irish man and woman is the history of what happened in the past. I am speaking about the ordinary working man – farm labourers, builders' labourers, county council workers, those who worked in industries under awful conditions, members of the armed forces in the past 70 years, members of An Garda Síochána or members of the RIC before them – whose blood, toil and sweat made this country what it is. They want to commemorate historic figures. They want the records of what such people did and what they said. They would like to know their history and their achievements. Ours is a society that does not seem to care about the past. Affluence has overtaken us and has made us indifferent to the things about which we should be concerned.

Cecilia Keaveney:

Listening to the impassioned speech of Deputy Deasy, I realise we are dealing with an age-old problem – knowing where one is going but not knowing where one has been. There is much scope for development in relation to our heritage. Having sat through some of the debates here today, I wish the Minister well because she has had so many offerings of advice as to what she should do and a geographical tour of Ireland telling her what she needs to be fixing—

Mr. U. Burke:

She did not go far with the results.

Cecilia Keaveney:

Unfortunately, I will probably contribute to this—

Mr. U. Burke:

Not even outside the Pale.

Cecilia Keaveney:

I had to laugh at the multiple references to "down the country" and "coming up from the country" to Dublin. I have to come down to Dublin and go back up the country to my constituency. Maybe I should put in a pitch for what is up the country, where we have a lot more heritage sites than much of the rest of the country. I can argue that point because, a few years ago we did a tour of Ireland and, to me, every hole in the hedge had a granny's kitchen and a standing stone. About three coach loads of people seemed to stop to look wherever any site seemed to be.

If we had been exploiting our heritage and background to the same extent as was being done further south, particularly south of the traditional Galway-Dublin divide, we would have left the rest of the country standing in terms of what we had to offer.

I am pleased to be here today. Every time there is money given out and there is a new Vote for money, the Minister has to be congratulated for achieving the Vote. The vote is £10 million over the next five years, of which £3 million is available after the enactment of this Bill. It must be important that we are considering the Heritage Fund Bill now and that money is coming through.

I agree with what was said by many speakers earlier concerning the bringing of heritage to the people and the acquisition of significant artefacts, whatever they may be. One will never be stuck for a list of articles suitable for purchase. That will be one of the Minister's less significant difficulties. It is a matter of limiting what one can buy to the £10 million.

Originally, I misread the statement in the Minister's speech that referred to acquiring important items of moveable heritage. I thought it meant the Minister was going to bring artefacts around the country. I then encountered references to the national collections, which brought us back into the Dublin realm. I am sorry to say I will be adding my voice of dissent to the concept of centralisation. Many throughout the country want to see living history. They want to see history brought to the people that need to see it – young people, to get them interested.

I taught for a few years and know that, for young people, the concept of 50 years is an incredible mystery. They cannot understand that there was a time when there were no mobile telephones, cars, or many of the things that, young as we are, we have seen coming on stream. The concept of something being more than 50 years old is mind-boggling to them. I once taught a girl to play the piano. I asked her how old the piano was and she asked if it was older than me. I replied that it was much older than me, to which she replied that it must be about 40. The piano was made in 1843 which was way beyond her comprehension. It is not easy to bring the concept of 100 or 200 years to children, but there is scope to do it.

Housing artefacts locally means people who come to Dublin do not see those artefacts relevant to different counties, but that is not the terrible disaster many may think. An example is the Greencastle Maritime Museum. For years we knew of ships from the Spanish Armada which had sunk off the Donegal coast at Kinnegoe Bay, many of whose artefacts have been removed by divers, including my uncle. People fought for years to have the artefacts housed in Greencastle in the Inishowen peninsula. The argument against it at the time was that artefacts need to be preserved properly, but we have developed a facility in Greencastle in the form of a museum which would do anyone proud. The board of management and the committee have developed a museum and added a planetarium, both of which are located at the harbour. Most of the artefacts are directly linked to the sea. The success of the museum lies in its pictures of people who would have been captains of boats or who were on boats that sunk. These would be people that others would have known. There is a living quality to the museum and a tangible link with the past which people can feel. While some of the artefacts predate many generations in the area, people who visit the museum can feel a part of the history, something which touches them deeply. It is a good example of why artefacts from a region should be kept there.

Letterkenny Museum has also developed well. I appreciate the money given to these facilities because, at one stage, Letterkenny suffered dry rot and the museum almost disintegrated. It has since been restored to good working order and good staff work there.

While I thank the Minister for the money being spent on Grianan Fort, I am very disappointed that a few questions were raised about the staff of her Department. People in the area, like many places where there are important artefacts and historic monuments, are in love with their monument and would not have anything happen to it if they could help it. They also want to have access to the monument. As a result of improvement works, the monument had to be closed for a while with access restricted. People understood that this was in the common good. As a result of the interest shown, departmental officials met Donegal county councillors for the area. We thought we agreed what access would be allowed. Unfortunately, it appears to have changed unknown to public representatives in the area. I express my displeasure because, if we meet departmental officials, come to an agreement and sell that message to the people, it makes it difficult when things happen that are contrary to what was agreed. The people in the area are passionate about gaining access to their fort, notwithstanding that it was closed due to vandalism. There are people who want to care for their heritage while also having access to it. All I ask for is communication. The visitor centre contains a great deal of information on the area and I commend the staff on their work.

The Minister will be familiar with Greencastle Castle. The issue there was safety, trying to ensure that people who loved their artefacts did not climb through it while searching for something they could bring home with them. Unfortunately, most of the things they might find at that location would be only modern artefacts. There are many similar places. There are also links to famous people in my area. In St. Mura's burial ground in Fahan there is a link to Florence Nightingale. Many of these are not exploited. The forts in Inch, Greencastle and Dunree and Buncrana Castle are not publicised as something unmissable. Perhaps the Minister might investigate how to divert funds to people who can best sell the message about these sites. In some cases it is a lack of knowledge and in others people deliberately stay away from their heritage and links to important people.

I think of my home town in that regard. About 200 yards from my house is the home place of General Montgomery. I recall speaking with a former British Ambassador who said that he was quintessenatially British and not Irish. If one were to go to Moville and look for his house or his parents' graves, no fuss would be made. The house is falling in. I would say that there is an advantage to having someone from the local area who became important, for whatever reason.

Mr. McGinley:

Was he born there?

Cecilia Keaveney:

I do not think he was born there. He lived there from when he was about one or two years of age until he was 16 when he left. He did not return for either parent's funeral, both of whom are buried behind the church, which is about 50 yards from the house.

Mr. McGinley:

Was his father a clergyman?

Cecilia Keaveney:

He was Bishop Montgomery and he left a great estate to the people of the town which is why we have one of the best walks in the country. It is politically incorrect to celebrate many things we could celebrate. That needs to be addressed and we must accept that it is a divergence of background which created us. It is by accepting the past that we can progress into the future.

There are locations which need to be developed. We heard this morning on the Marian Finucane show about Malin Head being the warmest place last year with the best sunshine and all such positive things. However, it is a focal point which is not developed. It is the most northerly point and must have seen much down the years. Despite this, nothing is happening.

I would like to see within the heritage area education and tourism potential being developed. Apart from anything else, many of the artefacts housed in museums provide an indoor facility which is not weather dependent. No matter how inclement the weather, people can find something to look at. That is one of the advantages of museums, such as the Greencastle Museum. People can spend time there and make a link with the past.

Often displays, the presentation of artefacts and the marketing of museums are not good. One still thinks of museums as dark, dull, boring places when they are not. A new initiative needs to be taken in the marketing of museums. No matter how many artefacts are gathered, if people are not interested in seeing them, we are going nowhere. Perhaps the Minister would discuss with the Departments of Education and Science, Tourism, Sport and Recreation and the Marine and Natural Resources ways of working together to develop the potential which is not being exploited.

Deputy Deasy referred earlier to a matter that touches on our links to Scotland. A lot is happening now in relation to those links, particularly Scotland-Donegal links. With the setting up of the Scottish-Irish forum a lot of interaction is beginning to occur on a political level and I assume the Minister will be able to advance the development of the heritage links of all the people who left Donegal and had a second home in Scotland. There is massive potential there.

I am fortunate to have an uncle who is extremely interested in history. He could talk anybody under the table in relation to Scottish-Irish links as he has done a lot of research on the topic – that relates to what Deputy Deasy mentioned. Many of the people who have carried out research and who had a great interest in folklore and Irish history have died and much of what they had to say was never recorded, collected or presented in a way useful for the future. If one of the £250,000 allocations for an artefact was given to a county, even if only on a couple of counties a year basis, it could be spent on employing someone to go round and meet the characters and pool together some of the stories.

My regret is that there is so much happening and yet nothing seems to be done. Almost every village has a historian or a local history group which meets weekly in a hotel room or bar, but their stories are not getting out to the people who would enjoy hearing them. We should try to ensure there is one person in each county to develop those stories.

Leader and other groups assist county councils and tidy towns organisations take seriously the development and the heritage of their towns. We need co-ordination and maybe that could be organised through the schools. Perhaps we could initiate school projects, in primary schools in particular, to encourage people to examine the heritage of their areas. The only topic I remember hearing about from my primary school days is the Vikings. If we had been taken around our area to see the local monastery and high cross we would have remembered a lot more. Now years on I know as little as I did when I went to school about the heritage closest to me. Some initiative in the primary school area would be welcome and would bring a lot of our heritage to life.

Deputy Hayes referred to artefacts causing problems in relation to developments and said that developers might not mention matters so that their development can proceed. A couple building a house might find a standing stone and be set back many months. That problem arose in relation to the development of an Alzheimer's unit in Carndonagh. The finding of the standing stone has left everything else outstanding for a considerable time. There is a proliferation of historical sites and artefacts throughout the country and we cannot develop everything. It is a tough decision as to what should be excavated or when an artefact should be photographed and moved to a more suitable location.

It would be remiss of me to speak on the Heritage Fund Bill without referring to one of my closest constituents, Mr. Brian Friel. We now have a Brian Friel archive in the National Library. I do not need to explain the wonders of the works and the significance of his plays throughout the world. It is important that there are incentives for people like him. I welcome the tax credit system that will help in the preservation of heritage. People can get tax credit for the archive material they contribute. Brian Friel has contributed a lot to putting material down on paper.

I thank the Minister for the £10 million funding. We have probably spent more time complaining about what is not being done than in welcoming the funding. It is good to use the opportunity to express our interest in this particular subject.

Mr. U. Burke:

I welcome the Bill. I welcome the making available of additional funding for heritage, which is badly needed. However, I was disappointed with the restrictive nature of the Bill. Funding is restricted to items of more than £250,000 and to the acquisition of items such as paintings and items of historic value. They will be housed almost totally in the institutions listed in the Bill. Beside Leinster House we have probably the greatest display of artefacts in any capital in the world and it is unfortunate that more of our people cannot have access to them with reasonable comfort.

The composition of the council is almost totally associated with the institutions listed, the National Museum, the National Library, the National Gallery, the National Archives and so on. The directors of those institutions are to be the members of the council. Human nature being what it is, their interests will be focused on their own institutions and the rest of the country will gain little. The £10 million which will be made available over a period of five years is wonderful. If, for instance, there is a sum of £3 million to be spent this year, have the directors identified items on which this sum may be expended in the short period of time left in the current year, about two months? If so, that is a short time and I hope that preparations are made and the items earmarked for purchase are available. If some of the funding is left unspent in the current year, it returns to the Minister for Finance to invest until it is needed again – if I read it correctly. If such funding, £10 million, is available then it should be used more widely to purchase artefacts at a national level to be available throughout the country instead of being centred in Dublin to be seen by visitors from Northern Ireland and Great Britain, as stated here.

I disagree when the Minister says in the explanatory memorandum that the heritage fund will have no direct impact on rural communities. If a valuable item in a rural community needs to be purchased, where will it spend the rest of its days? I see the Minister shaking her head. Can she tell me what provision is made for an important artefact to remain within or near to the community? An exhibition of major paintings, for example, will go on display in Cork or Limerick but rarely in Galway because it has no museum of the standard to house such works safely. That is why, when I first heard of this fund, I hoped that a portion of it would be used to establish museums throughout the country. Yet the Bill restricts it to items which the Minister considers to be of great value. There is no spin off to the rest of the country's heritage. If what I say is incorrect, I accept that.

There are two examples of a rich heritage which I have failed to persuade the Minister or her colleagues to recognise as important or to help the local communities. One is the historical Portumna Castle where the Office of Public Works has done a fine, but limited, restoration job. Adjacent to the castle is Portumna forest park and it is possible for Coillte to donate this land to her Department so as to integrate it into the castle heritage complex as the castle and walks complement each other. The other example – and I am sure that the Minister like other local representatives has received representation about it – is Coole Park. There an abundance of heritage is threatened by the National Roads Authority's developing of the N18 right in front of its entrance. As a matter of urgency, I hope that the Minister and Dúchas will do all in their power to limit the impact of the proposed dual carriageway. If allowed to proceed as planned, it will destroy a beautiful heritage site and the easy access which people now enjoy would disappear. We all accept the necessity of progress, but the impact this would have on an important heritage site must be considered and an alternative found. The many people who love Coole Park and all it stands for would appreciate that. It is an important tourist attraction in an area with few attractions.

Can anything be done about releasing back to their localities the vast quantity of different artefacts stored out of sight in various buildings, some of which are inappropriate, in Dublin? They serve no function by occasionally being displayed, usually on request. I hope that the Minister will do something through the unallocated funds in the proposed five years about important material that is locked in the archives.

I have tried hard to find the location of the Book of Duniry, an important artefact from my own parish in County Galway. It is an historical book which I cannot trace. It does not appear to be in the State and may be lost. If it is outside Ireland, I am sure the Minister could repatriate it, even temporarily, and put it on display in the county. Such works on display at local or county level would enthuse young people.

Deputy Keaveney mentioned education. There is no better way to encourage young people to appreciate the artefacts we have in Ireland than to bring people to them. The opportunity that so many have to visit Dublin to see the National Museum, National Library and other sites may be beyond reach due to time or expense for some. When I was in the classroom, I usually brought a school tour to Dublin once a year to see Leinster House, the National Museum, the National Art Gallery and the National History Museum. Those trips had a lasting impression on the minds of those who attended and they appreciated the opportunity to see artefacts first hand. Many were studying art and it was important for them to appreciate real works of art. Many developed a life long appreciation from that. Perhaps some of the unspent funding from any of the five years could be utilised to bring items of importance to rural areas even on a once-off basis. I accept that it is expensive and a difficult job.

I disagree when the Minister says that this would have no impact on rural communities. It has a serious impact if such items are found and then taken out of local areas because many such items have been taken and have never been brought back. Some of the younger generation would never have seen important artefacts from their own areas. Such an item might be mentioned in a local history but people will not know how to find it or identify it. They are more au fait with the most recent arrival in the wax museum than they are with items of important heritage value from their own area. That is a tragedy.

There is an onus on our national broadcaster to address this matter. The national television station should realise that these items should be frequently shown. There have been occasional excellent programmes but they are all too infrequent. Lyric FM and its impact on bringing classical music to the people is a fine example of what can be done. The same could be done in an educational way to bring heritage to the schools and the public at large. It would reinvigorate enthusiasm for heritage.

While many would say that our heritage has been destroyed, Dúchas has done a fantastic job in the area of preservation. While Duchas at times impedes progress, we depend on it as our national heritage organisation to protect what is there and what we can now identify. It has done a tremendous job in identifying heritage sites. Perhaps it has gone overboard in preserving anything and everything but without its efforts, much would be lost. We must compliment Dúchas on its achievements. I plead with the Minister to lift the restrictive nature of this Bill to allow for some expenditure on access to heritage for those outside Dublin.

Mr. M. Moynihan:

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on the Heritage Fund Bill, 2001. I congratulate the Minister for bringing the Bill before the House and for setting up a heritage fund for the protection and purchase of important artefacts. It is a worthwhile Bill. Much of our heritage, both urban and rural, has been lost over time through one accident or another. It is vital that we protect both structures and artefacts in any way possible.

Members have argued that the number of sites listed in the register of national monuments could be an impediment to development. There is some case that could be made in that regard, and some structures such as lime kilns have been well documented. Many have been bulldozed during farm development, rightly or wrongly. When it comes to redeveloping those areas, planning authorities are taking a very rigid view. Pressure is being put on young couples who must get archaeologists to write expensive reports on these issues. If the precise location of these sites was documented instead of the listing of a general area, it would be easier.

However, we must ensure that the heritage that exists in abundance around Ireland is maintained and preserved as far as possible. I encourage the Minister, in conjunction with wider education strategies, to help schools to use their own local history as a subject. Older people in a townland or area may have a history of the artefacts, churches, ruins and monuments of an area and I dread to think that much of this will be lost for coming generations. When current primary pupils grow up, will they have the same breadth of knowledge about rural landscapes and urban streetscapes as past generations? I visited several national schools last week as part of National Children's Day and saw that teachers were displaying large maps of their locality which showed the location of standing stones, lime kilns, old roads and other points of interest. I hope that this progress is built upon and that local history is preserved.

I came across another matter recently when researching for planning permission and trying to find the old ruins of a penal church. The book Where the Arglen So Gently Flows by J.J. O'Riordan not alone contains the national monuments but also the folklore. Everyone has heard stories about the fairy forts and the little people associ ated with them but in the two chapters of folklore in the book it is fascinating to read of the vivid imagination of the people at that time. I suppose the folklore was a source of entertainment and irrespective of whether these stories are true, the book is a fascinating read. If such documents are out there it is up to the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands to preserve them and this Bill is a move in that direction.

I draw the Minister's attention to a few specific issues. When people know of the existence of artefacts in attics or wherever, should they bring it to the attention of the Department and the national fund when it is in place? We have an impressive depth of knowledge in the National Museum, the National Archives and the other State cultural institutions, but we should all be on the look out for artefacts that are out there and should be protected.

A nation's greatest asset is its heritage and it must be protected. In developing farming in the 1960s and the 1970s the old ring forts, fairy forts and lime kilns were bulldozed to make way for what was seen as more important than mere relics of past heritage. The same was true of thatched houses and older buildings while new houses were seen as far better. Today we have gone back to the position where dated is in vogue and people are trying to reinvent the past. This is happening not alone in housing but in Irish pubs around the world where our heritage is being acknowledged. Old thatched or stone houses that have survived are now considered treasures, and I hope this trend continues.

A number of developments have taken place during this Government's lifetime. A fund was set up by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government for the conservation of the structure of old houses. It is easy to claim the amount of money should be much higher but it is certainly a help to get a £10,000 grant or up to 50% of the cost of maintaining the structure in its original form and, as such, is very welcome. I saw an example of this in Banteer in my constituency where a house that was used as a calving shed and was going to be knocked is now a beautiful two bedroom cottage which is let during the summer and creates an income for the farm family. In many towns and villages people with great imagination and determination have bought vulnerable derelict buildings either alone or as part of a group with the intention of restoring them. I pay a particular compliment to the Minister for the way she has helped us maintain the beautiful original stonework in the Banteer heritage centre and in the old school which is now a theatre in Charleville. It is wonderful that the State and the Minister sees fit to fund such projects.

I urge the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands and the Department of Education and Science to bring this matter to the attention of young people. My generation would certainly disregard it and say we are looking to the future and not to the past. There was an old saying that if one does not know from where one came there is a very good chance that one does not have a clue where one is going. I think the majority of people have a good knowledge of the Early Christian times in this country and the Viking invaders as there are many monuments left from that period. We have some artefacts from the Bronze Age and if there are others out there they should be maintained. We do not have the full history of an folach fiadh. We know it was located on the side of marshy land and it provided for some type of cooking but there is still much to explore in this area.

It is frightening that even to this day with all the education and attempts to preserve our heritage, some of it is still being torn up in the dead of night. Although they may not relate to the distant past, I do not believe there are any forges remaining apart from places such as Muckross House in Killarney. They should be preserved as they would be a tourist attraction. It was pointed out to me recently that we have much information on post-medieval history but in 100 years' time will people still have that information and should we be encouraged to maintain what we see today throughout the countryside?

I welcome the Bill and thank the Minister for bringing it before the House. It was a commitment in the programme for Government and I am pleased to see that honoured.

Mr. Perry:

I am delighted to speak on this very important Bill. It is important to establish this fund of £10 million for the acquisition of artefacts of significant importance which will be available to the main State cultural institutions. I hope what is acquired by the main institutions will be available for loan to various regional centres.

I believe £3 million will be made available this year, and £2 million will be available in each of the two following years with a final payment of £1 million and since this will be a rolling fund, money not used in any one year will be carried forward which is an important aspect of the legislation. It will provide funding to five institutions, the National Museum of Ireland, the National Library, the Irish Museum of Modern Art, the National Gallery and the National Archives. I had dealings with Dr. Wallace on the O'Hara collections, of which I am sure Members are aware, and Mairead Dunleavy of whom I have to speak very highly. Listening to previous speakers I understand Dr. Wallace had some excellent documentaries on television. Those documentaries should be on film for schools. Art is not only for people in Dublin 4; it is for every village and town. Those documentaries should be available to national and second level schools. I watched a documentary on the Armada some weeks ago. The funds should be used to put the whole collection on film also. We are all aware of the major collectibles but many are not educated about them or their history. To have that available to schools would be of major benefit.

Any item under consideration is required to have a valuation over £250,000. If that is the case the fund of £10 million would allow for a total acquisition of 40 items at a maximum. While all bodies have an annual acquisition budget, this sum is obviously additional to the fund which the institutions already have. If an item was on sale for £50,000, what would happen? From my experience in business I know that if a minimum floor price is put on any item, it is amazing how prices can creep in if it is known in the State that institutions have a minimum budget, particularly if the item is rare. Clearly there are opportunities to get rare acquisitions at considerably less which would be a huge addition to the State. I am not sure of the mindset behind the sum of £250,000 but being in business it seems to me that the floor price could be lower. I am concerned that that is giving a message.

All the recent purchases have been by private individuals not public bodies. In certain cases one is dealing with the public market. We are now dealing with a downturn in the economy worldwide. There is a big difference between "for auction" and "for sale". Deputy Ring, who is an auctioneer, will confirm this. At present everything is for sale, while two years ago everything was for auction. The difference is that for auction ten people are looking for the same item while for sale means one is in the marketplace. The definitions of "for auction" and "for sale" on the minimum floor value should be defined differently. If collectibles are for sale as opposed to for auction it means that the floor price could be considerably lower. I ask the Minister to look at that. It is not only people in the collectible business but dealers who collect manuscripts and books all over the world. For example, I bought the Book of Ballymote 12 months ago. The Book of Ballymote is a facsimile which—

Mr. Ring:

The Deputy bought everything by the book.

Mr. Perry:

I would not say that. I was delighted to bring the Book of Ballymote back to Ballymote. It is only the facsimile. The original Book of Ballymote is in the Royal Irish Academy. I thank Siobhán O'Rafferty who allowed transparencies to be taken of the four best illustrated pages of the book. The facsimile of the Book of Ballymote will shortly go on display in Ballymote. The transparencies are well illustrated on canvas. This facsimile which came in from Holland was published in 1887 while the original book was published in Ballymote in the 1300s. As Deputy Ulick Burke said, the original book is in the Royal Irish Academy since 1785. The lack of knowledge on the Book of Ballymote even in Ballymote is amazing. I am hoping to correct that in some small way. The facsimile book cost £2,500 and even at that time it was a considerable invest ment. I believe it is increasing in value at the rate of 30% per annum. One could pay considerably more for the facsimile book of which there are only a few copies. In certain counties, Clare, Sligo and Donegal, massive collectibles could be acquired which would be a huge asset to this fund as opposed to acquiring 40 items for £10 million. One could get 100 items of a distinctive collection which could be on sale in Europe.

I was in contact with a Dr. Stewart Neadon, Curator, Bronze Age Celtic Art, in the British Museum. There is a huge Sligo gold collection on display in London as we speak. I wish to draw to the Minister's attention one item, the Curry Torc, a pure gold necklace dating back to the Bronze Age 2,500 years ago, which was unearthed in Curry in the 1850s. That gold necklace is on display in the Bronze Age Celtic Art Studios at Great Russell Street, London. Dr. Stewart Neadon indicated that they would be disposed to talking to the Minister with a view to having it on loan. The significance of the Curry Torc to Sligo would be a real treasure. Perhaps this possibility could be examined by the Minister's officials. Sligo gold, which was unearthed in the 1800s, and a great deal of Irish gold is on display in the British Museum. If possible, I suggest that gold should be returned, under stringent controls, and put on display.

A collection that is dear to me is the O'Hara Collection of carriages which was given to State in 1952 by Dermot O'Hara, Annamore Estate. It is an unique collection of seven carriages, Bianconi carriages, all of which are different styles. It is our intention to have those returned to Sligo. However, considerable money will have to be spent on their conservation and restoration to put them into an exhibition. Will the Minister indicate if and when funds are available for such work?

My predecessor, Ted Nealon, was the first Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands in 1985. I am open to correction but I understand he appointed Mr. Justice Hamilton as chairman of an advisory committee. He had great vision at that time. It has now become a huge Ministry.

Returning artifacts to their place of origin is important. During the summer the President opened the Niland Gallery. We are fortunate for Nora Niland's wisdom in regard to the Jack Yeats collection. They were indebted to the missionaries who compiled a wonderful collection of Yeats paintings, which is a real treasure for Sligo. The Niland Gallery was part funded by the Minister's Department. I will shortly visit Turlough House in Castlebar. It is a wonderful concept which brings history back to the people and the regions. As speakers said earlier today, the National Museum is considered elitist and people feel it is not for them. Bringing artefacts back to where they originated is a wonderful concept. Sligo is fortunate to have a very rich heritage, particularly in regard to Jack and W.B. Yeats. This week a Belfast company published a book listing items for sale, including manuals, booklets, all distinctive and collectable items. The Minister should provide some funding for smaller items which will be collectibles in the future. From small acorns large oaks grow and I am sure the Minister will invest wisely. The purchase of the Ulysses collection amounting to more than £1.4 million was a valuable acquisition for the State. The Minister was successful in acquiring fine paintings for the National Art Gallery and I recognise that this is free of charge.

It is now time to bring fine arts to the people. I am not sure if that will be possible from a security point of view but, given the appreciation of art, nothing is impossible. There is a fine arts studio in Sligo where artists have open evenings. People genuinely appreciate the library collections which people visit in their own regions. Such fine displays may not be fully appreciated in Dublin.

The provision of £10 million in the Bill for the acquisition of further objects of heritage is important. Every county has a rich heritage. Dúchas has done outstanding work in Ballymote Castle which is open to the public after 20 years. This is much appreciated. Much has been done in regard to the acquisition of items and it is now time to promote these collections. Turlough House has been advertised on the national airwaves. There should be such advertisements in regard to Dublin. It is important to promote this business. The bringing of collectibles from Ireland to London is also important.

The Bill recognises the Hamilton report recommended by the late Mr. Justice Hamilton to the then Minister, Mr. Ted Nealon, and the White Paper on Culture, Access and Opportunity. The new legislation will seek to introduce an effective licensing system governing the export of works of art and a wide range of material over 50 years old. This includes furniture, silver, glass, including stained glass, musical instruments, porcelain, books above a specified value, archives, including sound, photographic archives and so on. It is a matter of regret that so much time has elapsed between the Government White Paper, the Hamilton report and the introduction of the Bill, which I welcome.

I support the idea of establishing a heritage fund to acquire and preserve important items of heritage. I am sure the Minister would be the first to recognise that there are fantastic heritage groups throughout the country who are visionary and give of their time to provide lectures and publications on a shoestring budget. We have come a long way in the past ten or 12 years. The role of the National Museum, the National Gallery, the Arts Council, the Heritage Council, the Concert Hall, the Chester Beatty Library and the Director of the National Archives is very important in regard to the collectibles stored in Dublin. Sligo has received approval in principle for considerable funding for a museum, which I welcome.

The development in Mayo is welcome because it will bring collectibles back to the people. I appeal to the Minister to bring art back to the younger generation. Deputy McGinley covered many aspects in his statement this morning and I compliment him on his observations on the Bill. The use of the fund to acquire important items is very important. Section 6 of the Bill refers to a gift of land or other property which the Minister may on the advice of the Council of National Cultural Institutions accept for the benefit of the heritage fund. The Minister should consider tax concessions in regard to gifts to the State. There are very fine collections in private hands. People should get tax concessions if they give the State collections for public display. It is important to keep a catalogue of items of national interest in private ownership.

I am pleased to speak on this important issue and I appeal to the Minister to consider a lower limit of £250,000. Perhaps £1 million of the £10 million could be designated to items of less than £250,000 in value. This would provide a great opportunity to acquire items of significant importance to the State.

Mr. Ring:

I move the adjournment and look forward to speaking on the Dublin heritage fund Bill when I get the opportunity.

Debate adjourned.