The Order of Business shall be No. 25, the motion re Freedom of Information Act, 1997 (Prescribed Bodies) (No. 4) Regulations, 2001 – returned from Committee; No. 2 the Transport (Railway Infrastructure) Bill, 2001 [Seanad] – Second Stage and No. 55 the Heritage Fund Bill, 2001 – Second Stage (resumed). It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. 25, shall be decided without debate.
Order of Business.
There is one proposal to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 25, the motion re the Freedom of Information Act, 1997 (Prescribed Bodies) (No. 4) Regulations 2001, to be taken without debate agreed to? Agreed. We shall now take leaders' questions.
There seems to be a divergence of policy position between the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste and between Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats on the proposed abortion referendum. I would like the Taoiseach to clarify that. The Taoiseach is probably aware that in his absence yesterday the Tánaiste said that while her party was committed to the legislation which is being published, no date had been agreed for a referendum. Not very much hinges on that. She went on to say that in her view, unless there was a consensus – whatever that means – there would not be a referendum. Subsequently a spokesperson on her behalf is quoted in the newspapers as saying,
I don't believe the Government would enter into a referendum process with a proposal they didn't believe was going to get passed. What we are keen to avoid here is a repetition of the Nice Treaty debacle. There were lessons to be learned there. You can't take people for granted on this issue.
Is there to be a referendum? Is it contingent on a consensus emerging either in the House or outside it? What is the position? There are comments attributed to the Progressive Democrats' Whip saying that Second Stage should continue into the spring and that the debate should be so open-ended as to be indefinite. We need clarification from the Taoiseach.
What about Fine Gael's position?
I suspect that the Taoiseach is regretting allowing the Tánaiste take leaders' questions yesterday. I anticipate that her future outings on these occasions will be severely curtailed and tightly monitored. She was let out of the box yesterday morning and indicated that the Government – as distinct from the Fianna Fáil party dominant within the Government – would not proceed to fix the date for a referendum until such time as it was guaranteed or reasonably assured of success. Can we take it that we are into Government by opinion poll?
Do not mention confidence—
Deputy Roche is not yet on the Front Bench, he will have to overtake Deputy Jacob first.
A Deputy:
He will have his work cut out.
Keep taking the tablets Deputy Roche.
From what the Tánaiste said yesterday can we take it that the date of the referendum has not yet been set? The Taoiseach has indicated that before to the House, so there is nothing new in it. More pertinently, is the Government's position on the issue today that no date will be set and no referendum called unless it is reassured by opinion polls on the one hand and consensus, whatever that means, on the other?
It would be a good idea to repeat to the House the comments made by the Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, some of which have been quoted this morning. I checked them and she stated.
The Government has decided to put forward legislation that will be put to the people in a referendum. If this legislation is adopted by the people, it can only be changed in a subsequent referendum. The Government has not decided when that referendum will take place because, clearly, it would not be wise to proceed down the road of a referendum if we cannot build consensus, particularly among those in the middle, around this proposal.
As I have already said, the Government has not taken a decision on the date. Our position is we hope to have the legislation ready before Christmas. Given that we have three months to do so, there are no grounds to be worried.
That is not three months.
It leaves plenty of time to go through a Bill and clear it before Christmas. As I have said, I do not believe January would be a good month for a referendum. Therefore, February would be the earliest opportunity. However, we still have to fix a date. I hope we will get broad support, but I have made it clear several times that I do not expect we will get full support. That is what the Tánaiste meant by "consensus" on this decision. We will have the referendum. I hope Deputy Noonan will support it.
The Taoiseach will know from his extensive experience in Government that when a Minister brings a proposal for a Bill to Cabinet, he usually has answers to every possible question that contrary colleagues around the table might put to him. I presume when Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, proposed this Bill he possessed a full brief with which he could have answered all possible questions. Why has it taken two weeks to answer the questions I put to the Taoiseach?
Questions which could have been answered in a day.
I still have not received replies. Why did the Taoiseach not copy the answers to my questions from Deputy Martin's brief and send them to me?
Was he worried about the answers?
I will answer all the questions. I have replied to the Deputy. I need an opportunity to clear all the answers, but I have the replies.
Did the AG give them to the Taoiseach?
I have been working through the answers.
Is he—
Order, please.
Why is the Taoiseach sitting on them?
(Interruptions.)
I am not. It is a long process.
(Interruptions.)
As it happens, I know where Deputy Noonan got 32 of the 36 questions. I have received them as well with exactly the same wording.
That is hardly the point.
I will answer them as quickly as possible.
(Interruptions.)
I published the questions, if others proceed to resubmit them—
Order, please.
Today's Irish Independent has a banner headline declaring our anthrax defence has been exposed as a shambles. No doubt the Taoiseach has been briefed on the story for questions this morning. The article proceeds to explain and describe in fairly horrifying detail the level of chaos which has become normality in major hospitals and emergency installations around the country. In light of events in other countries and the fact that most national systems around the world have been on some kind of alert since 11 September five weeks ago, what is the state of the national emergency plan and who is responsible for drafting it? We know Minister of State at the Department of Public Enterprise, Deputy Jacob, is responsible for repelling a nuclear attack—
A Deputy:
Assisted by Deputy Dick Roche.
—which Minister of State – we know it is not yet Deputy Roche – is responsible for repelling an anthrax attack or any other form of bio-terrorism?
Deputy Roche has his own nuclear gun.
Will the Taoiseach assure the public that somebody is in charge, the person knows what he or she is doing and inform the public how this person can be contacted by telephone?
Does the Taoiseach still have confidence in the Minister of State at the Department of Public Enterprise, Deputy Jacob? If incidents such as the anthrax scares which occurred around the country yesterday were to be repeated, which organisation has primary responsibility, the Garda or the health boards?
I will comment briefly on several aspects of this important issue. The Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, has already announced that an expert committee—
The 66th committee.
—under the chairmanship of Professor Bill Hall, Director of the Virus Reference Laboratory, was established by the Department to prepare an operational plan which would be implemented in the unlikely event of a biological attack. Work on the detailed plan is progressing. A specific protocol—
The plan has been conceived but not implemented.
(Interruptions.)
I would like to answer the Deputy's question.
Order, please. These are Leader's questions.
A specific protocol to deal with a suspected anthrax attack has been prepared and is in operation. The protocol deals with the procedures to be adopted in the event of a suspected anthrax attack, in particular, patient treatment, management, post-exposure and guidelines. The protocol is being issued to the fire service, the Garda, the Defence Forces and directors of public health. Included with the protocol are guidelines for individuals and companies on how to deal with a suspect package believed to contain anthrax. These are available on the Department website at www.health.ie. In general, if a suspicious package or letter is received, the advice is to place the package in a plastic bag or a sealed container in order to prevent leakage.
Send for the Progressive Democrats.
The room or premises should then be evacuated and the Garda contacted immediately.
In reply to Deputy Noonan's important question, the Garda should be contacted in the first instance. They are responsible for contacting the appropriate agencies, the fire service, Defence Forces, directors of public health. In the event of exposure to anthrax, the Irish Medicines Board has confirmed sufficient quantities of antibiotics are available.
On a separate matter, I was asked a question during the week on the penalties for sending hoax mail. There is legislation on this matter, but it dates back to 1908. I have asked that it be reviewed. It is a criminal offence to send a package containing any dangerous or noxious substance by post. Indictments can lead to small fines but, depending on circumstances, prosecutions can also be brought for murder, manslaughter and assault. The problem is the difficulty with getting convictions. That area, therefore, will need to be reassessed. The legislation exists, however, so people should not believe they can have fun and play games with the issue. On the other hand, we also need to be conscious there might be more sinister people involved. For that reason we are reviewing the legislation.
The Government has set up an office of emergency planning in the Department of Defence. Its purpose is to take the lead role in emergency planning to meet the new threat. There is already a national emergency plan, which health and local authorities deal with and have successfully used in the past when terrible events such as the Stardust tragedy or bombings have occurred. That plan is being continuously updated by the authorities. The new body will examine the new threat from international terrorism and the possibility of an escalation in international tensions, including co-ordination of the responses of the various agencies. We endeavour to proceed on a similar basis to our efforts earlier in the year with the foot and mouth disease outbreak. The office is chaired by the Minister of Defence. It includes the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and by association the Garda, the Department of the Environment and Local Government and by association the local authorities and the Department of Public Enterprise and by association the radiological protection agencies and other associated groups. The group will meet as often as is required to co-ordinate events.
The reality, which was made clear to me again yesterday in Brussels, is that the best funded countries in the world, with the biggest armies and laboratories and the best police forces, are having major difficulties getting a handle on this and so are we. However, we must try to the best of our ability and as quickly as possible. European procedures on this issue are either non-existent or very sketchy, but we must move as quickly and efficiently as possible. I assure the House that we will do that.
The situation would be funny if it was not sad; and it would be sad if it was not now deadly serious because since 11 September the reality is that the world is changed in terms of national and international security. We live quite close to a major terrorist target – Sellafield – which could cause devastation along the entire east coast of this island. The total lack of preparedness revealed yesterday in the many different sentences that the Taoiseach spoke on the record of the House and which will have to be parsed and analysed, is frightening. During one of his statements, he said that the new plan is already in existence, as least that is what I think I heard – he may have gone on to contradict that.
The anthrax plan.
I will just confirm that the Taoiseach said that it was in place. Am I correct in saying that I did hear that correctly? That the anthrax plan—?
The protocol is in place.
The protocol and the anthrax plan is in place. Has anybody told the Mater Hospital? What is described in today's newspaper happened yesterday. The Taoiseach's comprehensive reply indicated that the plan had been agreed even though the Minister for Health and Children said it was not in his bi-lateral signalling semaphore across the floor of the House. It is quite evident notwithstanding anything that the Taoiseach said in his reply this morning that the people to whom ordinary citizens would turn in the first instance if they felt that they were suffering from some form of biological attack – the staff in the hospitals – have no knowledge of what to do or how to deal with it. There is no point in the Minister for Health and Children screwing up his face; the reality is what happened yesterday as described in the newspapers—
The Deputy would believe anything he reads in the newspapers.
This is not like being the Minister for Education and Science. This is real now.
The Deputy should be careful what he says about professional clinicians.
Order, please.
The Deputy is not yet the Taoiseach.
Deputy Quinn is asking a supplementary question of the Taoiseach.
I am asking questions of the Taoiseach but the Dauphin keeps interrupting.
It is not in order for a Member to interrupt.
I am trying to discern from what the Taoiseach—
(Interruptions.)
—said if there is an anthrax plan in place, has it been communicated to major hospitals including the Mater Hospital and what explanation does the Taoiseach have in response to the events that are described in today's newspaper? In all the comprehensive briefing available to the Taoiseach and the rapid reaction force in the Taoiseach's Department to any news event other than a media opportunity, what is the briefing in relation to the story in today's newspaper?
The Taoiseach, final reply.
I am more worried about today than yesterday. I regret if there was any confusion on some of these issues yesterday. The Eastern Region Health Authority will have to answer that question. The protocol was launched yesterday. It is available on the website, www. health.ie and can be accessed by everybody. People should not wait for information to be sent out because it is there on the website.
Deputy Noonan asked a correct and simple question when he inquired as to what happens and who is responsible. People in that situation should contact the Garda and they will contact the appropriate agencies. If members of the public have any concern or fear of any potential threat, they should contact the Garda and it is the responsibility of the Garda to contact the other appropriate agencies, the fire service, the Defence Forces, public health directors. There is a protocol on this issue.
Deputy Quinn's first question was about Sellafield. Plans have been in place for a long period to deal with any kind of tragic event happening in Sellafield.
An accident.
The plan was based on the possibility of an explosion in Sellafield which would cause radiation to be released into the atmosphere. The Radiological Protection Institute has plans in place for years. That is a major accident plan. As I said earlier, there is world wide concern about this issue because nobody thought biological attacks would happen. The Virus Reference Laboratory is working to collate information and to keep abreast of what is happening in other countries.
That concludes leaders' questions. There will be opportunities during Question Time this afternoon for relevant questions on these matters to the Minister for Defence.
I call Deputy Noonan on the Order of Business.
On the Order of Business, the Taoiseach indicated that he was contemplating amending legislation to make the posts and telegraphs Act more relevant to the issue of injurious substances being posted to individuals. Is the Taoiseach contemplating any other legislation?
The Taoiseach's statement this morning does not inspire confidence. People are worried, people are scared and his Ministers gave the impression that collectively they could not lead the country across O'Connell Bridge, not to mind inspire confidence in this situation. Does the Taoiseach know that questions to the Department of Health and Children yesterday about anthrax were being redirected—
This is not appropriate to the Order of Business – promised legislation.
I am asking about legislation. Please be tolerant with me, I will finish in one sentence. Questions yesterday to the Department of Health and Children about anthrax by members of the public were being redirected to a public relations agency—
That is not true. We held a full scale press conference.
This is abuse of Standing Orders.
The questions were not answered. They were redirected to a PR agency. Could we have a statement in the House next week from either the Minister for Health and Children or the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, to reassure the public in these matters?
On promised legislation.
On terrorism generally, I have already mentioned the Bill to which the Deputy has referred. There are about six Bills being examined with regard to terrorism. This House should endeavour to allay the fears of the public. In spite of the fuss all over Europe this week, there is no notifiable case of anthrax anywhere in Europe in the course of this week. Biological warfare is a new issue with which we did not think we would have to deal. I am not saying everything is perfect—
That is an understatement.
We must move quickly to ensure that we can deal with it in case it happens but there is no notifiable case anywhere in Europe.
All the Taoiseach's talk about partnership for peace. I set out what I wanted to join.
(Interruptions.)
On the Order of Business, I want to talk about something that has already happened and that is BSE in cattle. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development has put a Statutory Instrument 450/2001 to deal with the possibility of BSE in sheep. Normally such instruments are not the subject of debate in this House. I formally ask the Taoiseach in the light of our experience with BSE in cattle, that the Whips and the Government would arrange for a debate to take place in this House on the implications of S.I.450/2001. I seek a comprehensive explanation of why the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development has seen fit to bring in these regulations. Is there already evidence or fears of the possibility of BSE in sheep on this island?
I will arrange for the Whips to look at the possibility of a debate.
In the aftermath of the Jamie Sinnott judgment in the Supreme Court, the Minister
for Education and Science promised a number of initiatives. One was the Education (Disability) Bill which, in the Government's legislative programme, regrettably, is listed for publication in 2002. Last week, in reply to a parliamentary question, the Minister berated the public and parents of people with disability for accessing the courts to establish their legal rights. If the Government is serious about diverting people from the courts, will the Taoiseach bring forward the Government's legislative proposals and will he make every effort to have the legislation referred to in the Minister's statement published this session?
The disabilities Bill, which will provide the legislative basis to advance and underpin participation in society by people with disability, will be published this session. Work is in progress in the Department of Education and Science on the separate Bill about which the Deputy asked, the Education and Children Bill, to provide statutory entitlement to education for children and young people with special needs, but that will not be available this session.
When will the competition Bill be published?
In this session.
Given that, in 1985, there were 28,000 calls on ambulances in Dublin and the figure is now more than 90,000, with only 11 ambulances, will the Government provide time to debate the Fine Gael Bill—
That is a matter for the Whips. Has the Deputy a question on promised legislation?
I am not asking about legislation.
The Deputy should ask a question on legislation.
I am asking the Taoiseach if he will provide time to debate the Fine Gael Bill on the office of surgeon general. It is clear these issues need discussion and debate in this House.
That Private Members' Bill will be taken in Private Members' time.
I wish to raise a matter with you, a Cheann Comhairle, if that is in order. Last night, a very serious accident took place over in Leinster House 2000 when the brand new revolving door collapsed on a young staff member—
That is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
I just wish to ask you, a Cheann Comhairle, as you are in charge of our safety in this House, if you will arrange for a health and safety inspection of the House?
The matter will be appropriately investigated.
I came on the scene when the glass was shattered on the ground—
It is grossly irregular to raise such a matter, in this manner, on the Order of Business. The Deputy could have approached my office for information, there is a proper way of dealing with this, but not by raising it on the Order of Business. The Deputy knows her way to my office.
Will you arrange—
The Deputy is being disorderly and she should resume her seat. I call Deputy Stagg.
The Government provided time this week to debate the Aer Lingus issue. Will the Government consider allowing further time, subsequent to the Cabinet meeting on Tuesday, to discuss the Aer Lingus issue? Do I see the Taoiseach nodding agreement?
Yes.
Thank you.
This morning, I received a note in the post from a constituent, a businesswoman, who informed me that her public and employers' liability insurance premium has increased from £40,000 to £100,000 per annum. Is there any legislation promised to tackle this extraordinary state of affairs, which is crippling Irish business?
The Deputy should put down a parliamentary question on that matter.
We had a very helpful briefing last night from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform on a number of Bills, arising from both the special Justice and Home Affairs Council meeting and the UN Security Council resolution. Some five Bills were outlined to us. By way of preparation, has it been decided which of those Bills will be taken this side of Christmas and what is the time frame for publishing them and presenting them to the House?
I understand from that meeting and a briefing I received earlier in the week, that there are five priority Bills. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform hopes that those five will be published by the end of November.
In view of recent statements by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation, what is the present status of the Campus Stadium Ireland Bill, which was to come before the House either before Christmas or early in 2002?
The Bill is due early in 2002, but as soon possible.
(Interruptions.)
One of the most significant failures of this Government has been its failure to deal with the chronic shortage of nurses—
Please, Deputy, not a statement. Has the Deputy a question on promised legislation?
In relation to legislation, it is promised. The Taoiseach is vainly trying to find a consensus on one Bill. I suggest he should seek consensus, which he will get, to deal with the nurses crisis and bring forward the nurses Bill, which is promised for some time next year. Will he now ensure this matter is dealt with, once and for all, in the interest of patient care? We have had a chronic crisis—
The Deputy knows that, under Standing Orders, it is not in order to continue with a statement. Only a question is allowed.
The nurses Bill is due early next year but, thankfully, we did not have to wait for the Bill – we have a nett increase of 1,700 nurses this year already.
Given that, over the past four years, seven members of the Garda Síochána have been killed in Garda vehicles, will the Taoiseach expedite the Criminal Justice (Garda Powers) Bill and will he ensure upgrading of the dilapidated fleet of cars which the gardaí are currently driving? Also, when will the Road Traffic Bill, 2001, be taken in the House? Does the Taoiseach consider it satisfactory that a Ford Transit van in a divisional headquarters is being used as a squad car for the past four months—
The Deputy should confine himself to promised legislation.
The second Bill is already published. The heads of the Criminal Justice (Garda Powers) Bill have been approved and the Bill is being drafted.
When will the Day Lists (Residential Institutions) Redress Bill be taken in the House? Will survivors' organisations have an opportunity to address the committee on Committee Stage?
On that matter, as the Taoiseach is aware, the separate commission to inquire into child abuse has been in session for more than a year, hearing victims' experiences. A tribunal is expected to begin hearings early next year. When does the Taoiseach intend allowing the members of this House debate the Bill, which has already been debated in one committee? Will the Taoiseach consider amending the legislation to allow pupils who are—
We cannot discuss the proposals in the Bill.
The Residential Institutions Redress Bill, 2001, will shortly commence the process of enactment in the House.
How shortly is "shortly"?
In the next two weeks, I think.
When is it intended to introduce the public service broker Bill? Will the Taoiseach, who, like me is a former shop steward, ask his friends on the Aer Lingus board to immediately cease the intimidation of shop stewards in Aer Lingus?
The first question is in order, the second one is not.
There has been gross intimidation of the shop stewards—
The Deputy should not abuse Standing Orders.
—in all areas of Aer Lingus. I believe that—
The Deputy is making a statement that is out of order at this stage. On the promised legislation, Taoiseach.
Will the Taoiseach also have withdrawn the notices of compulsory redundancy?
The Deputy is completely out of order.
It is outrageous, a Cheann Comhairle.
It is outrageous to be out of order too. The Taoiseach on the promised legislation.
Certain close associates of the Taoiseach are on the board of Aer Lingus. The shop stewards and workers are being grossly intimidated.
The heads of the public service management Bill are expected late this year.
As the Minister for Social, Com munity and Family Affairs is in San Francisco studying poverty—
That has nothing to do with the Order of Business.
It would if you would just wait a moment, a Cheann Comhairle.
A question.
As the Minister is in San Francisco studying poverty in that poverty stricken city on the west coast of America, will the Taoiseach tell us what are his plans in relation to the Social Welfare Bill? As the increases will come about on 1 January, the Bill should go through the House by the last day of this year. When will the Bill be published? Will it be taken after the financial statement, the budget, in early December? What are his plans in respect of this matter?
The budget is in the first week of December and then the Minister will outline when it will be taken. The Minister hopes to bring forward the increases by three months compared to when they were paid previously – six months, as it was a few years ago.