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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 24 Oct 2001

Vol. 542 No. 6

Other Questions. - Decentralisation Programme.

Willie Penrose

Question:

77 Mr. Penrose asked the Minister for Finance the position regarding the Government's proposals for decentralisation of up to 10,000 civil and public servants; when it is expected the programme of decentralisation will commence; when it is expected to be completed; if the Government plans to accelerate the programme of decentralisation having regard to new projections from the CSO indicating a growth in the population of the greater Dublin area; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25364/01]

Austin Deasy

Question:

83 Mr. Deasy asked the Minister for Finance when he will announce details of the proposed programme of decentralisation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25275/01]

I propose to take Questions Nos. 77 and 83 together.

The Cabinet sub-committee on decentralisation is considering all of the issues associated with a new programme. I am determined that decisions on such a programme should be taken only after proper deliberation has been completed. In view of my determination in this regard I am not in a position to say definitively when the Government will be in a position to take decisions on a new programme other than to say that such decisions will be taken as soon as is practicable after the conclusion of the ongoing deliberations.

I thank the Minister for his reply. How advanced are negotiations with the relevant social partners, especially the Civil Service unions? Is there an evaluation group within the Department of Finance to consider and assess the submissions made including the comprehensive one under the aegis of Westmeath County Council which involved the trades unions, Mullingar town commission and all the social partners including the Chamber of Commerce? If decisions have not been made why did the Taoiseach rule out Mullingar on 5 October, despite a significant submission made by the town? It has caused morale in the town to fall and in County Westmeath, especially when Mullingar is the only major town in the midlands not to have had the benefit of decentralisation.

The Taoiseach visited Mullingar with the eminent Leader of the Seanad and the Minister for Public Enterprise.

The Minister upstaged the Taoiseach.

The Deputy should not be surprised at that.

All politics is local.

Exactly. A former candidate for the constituency of Westmeath was a close school friend of mine, as Deputy Penrose is probably aware. He was elected to the House for a short period. No decision has been made on decentralisation, whether it be in terms of the towns, villages or areas selected or the bodies or Departments to be relocated. In recent days I understand a Deputy in my party, not from the constituency of Westmeath, issued a statement to the local newspapers to the effect that following his consultation with the Minister for Finance, a certain body was to be relocated to a certain part of the country. I have not seen the Deputy since the start of the Dáil session. No area has been ruled in or out.

The Civil Service unions were part of the consultative process but they are not involved in the decision making. A Cabinet sub-committee, comprising the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and Minster for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, the Minister for the Environment and Local Government and me, has been formed to consider the issue but the Government will make the final decisions. I assure Deputies and Senators on all sides that no location has been ruled in or out, despite statements to the contrary from Deputies on the Opposition and Government side.

Doubtless the recent opinion poll in Kerry North will be a factor influencing decisions.

Following initial submissions by many towns, the CSO published its population projections for the next 20 to 25 years. Is the Minister aware that the midlands is the one region projected to suffer population decline, of approximately 25,000? Would he consider that this should be an important factor in deciding where Departments may be decentralised? Since all the midland towns have had the benefit of decentralisation with the exception of Mullingar does he not consider it outrageous for the Taoiseach to recently announce that the town is not even to be considered?

The Deputy has given me news of which I was unaware. The Taoiseach has visited most constituencies in the country and I must obtain local reports of his visit to Westmeath.

The reports comprise several pages in the local newspapers.

I must examine the relevant reports. I am aware from various studies that a certain part of the midlands is the one area in the country not to have benefited from economic progress. The midlands comprises a broad geographic area and some parts have done very well. Other parts, closer to my county, have not benefited and have experienced levels of emigration and deprivation worse than most parts of the country.

More than one criterion will be used when reaching decisions in this area. The factors raised by Deputy McGrath will be taken into consideration. No decisions have been made on what towns have been included or excluded, or if they have nobody has told me as the Minister in charge.

Will the Minister confirm that the Government has not made a decision on the transfer of parts of the Land Registry to Waterford, since his Minister of State may be under a different impression?

The Deputy knows I did not make such an announcement. My colleague may have had something to do with it and I thank him in advance for the supposed decision to transfer staff from my Department.

Does the Minister accept that the laughter in the House is an adequate commentary on where Government policy stands on the issue of decentralisation and that there is no prospect of it happening this side of the general election?

The Deputy will be aware that, often to my cost, I am inclined to fulfil my promises. I promised to have the programme of decentralisation up and running but I am disappointed I have not been in a position to finalise it. Many of the difficulties to which the Deputies referred in a jocose manner impinge on final decisions being made. It is the Government's intention to proceed.

Since I made the original announcement in December 1999, the case for decentralisation is now even more compelling. Deputies Penrose and McGrath, who travel to Dublin city centre every week, will be aware of this. Trade union leaders will be even more surprised to find that the level of interest among their members in moving out of Dublin is far greater than they would have anticipated. People see many advantages to living in the country in terms of a better lifestyle and better facilities. There is a great expectation among public servants about the issue. There is greater expectation in parts of the country and even greater among Deputies and Senators in terms of the areas to be included. The issue presents problems.

Does the Minister not accept that the record of the Government in this area is off-putting, to say the least? The unilateral decision by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to transfer to Legal Aid Board to Cahirciveen, agreed to by the Minister, was made to suit local party convenience rather than taking account of the service to the public or the concerns of the staff, for whom it is a very big issue. Will the Minister assure the House that areas will not be selected solely because they are located in marginal constituencies and regardless of what may happen after the general election?

I must defend my colleague, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, and, by imputation myself, regarding the transfer of the Legal Aid Board. It is a small organisation and given current developments in technology, there is no reason it could not be located in any part of the country. Decisions on decentralisation will not be made on the basis referred to by the Deputy. That happened in the past. For example, it may be nothing more than a coincidence that parts of the then Department of Agriculture were moved to Wexford when Deputy Yates was Minister for Agriculture and the Environmental Protection Agency was also moved to Wexford, the home of the then Minister for the Environment, Deputy Howlin. I can provide other examples. We intend to have a programme of decentralisation that makes sense.

Is it fair to construe from the open answers by the Minister, which we have come to expect, that the headline in the Westmeath Examiner stating that cold water had been thrown on the idea of Mullingar getting a decentralised Department can be ignored and that in terms of Mullingar and other worthy applicants being selected, it is all to play for?

Over the years I have tried to resist classifying submissions as good or bad. I would have thought that many, including public servants, would consider Mullingar as a much desired place in which to live.

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