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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 Nov 2001

Vol. 545 No. 2

Heritage Fund Bill, 2001: Report and Final Stages.

Acting Chairman

This debate will conclude at 1.30 p.m., if not previously concluded. Amendment No. 1, in the name of Deputy O'Shea, arises out of Committee proceedings. Amendment No. 1 is consequential on amendment No. 12. Amendments Nos. 2 and 13 form an alternative composite proposal and amendment No. 14 is an alternative to amendments Nos. 12 and 13. Amendments Nos. 1, 2, 12 and 14 are to be taken together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 3, line 10, after "AS" to insert "COMHAIRLE UM FHORAIS CHULTÚIR NÁISIÚNTA OR IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE".

The thrust behind this amendment and my other amendment in this grouping, amendment No. 12, is an issue I raised on Committee Stage regarding the title of the Council of National Cultural Institutions. It should appear in its Irish form within the Bill. It is somewhat regrettable, given that this is the Department with responsibility for the Gaeltacht and the Irish language, that the Opposition has to put down amendments like these. The Minister's amendment No. 2 is essentially the same as my amendment No. 1, while the situation is similar regarding amendment No. 14 in the name of the Minister and my amendment No. 12. I have no particular difficulty with the Minister's amendments but I was advised that in terms of the Irish title of the CNCI, it would be more proper to have the Irish version appear earlier and I would like to hear the Minister's response to that. I am pleased she has accepted the essence of the point I raised on Committee Stage and there are only technicalities between us at the moment. I would like her to explain how her amendments are superior in this instance.

As I indicated on Committee Stage, I was favourably disposed towards these amendments, which seek the insertion of the title in Irish of the Council of National Cultural Institutions in the Short Title and in Part III of the Bill. At this stage, subject to the advice of parliamentary counsel, I am pleased to accept the substance of the amendments put forward by Deputies O'Shea and McGinley. Counsel has now drafted the appropriate amendments. Regarding Deputy McGinley's amendment, while I appreciate his genuine concerns regarding an Irish title that facilitates easy pronunciation and recollection, Deputies will see that parliamentary counsel has advised that the appropriate Irish translation of the CNCI is An Chomhairle um Fhorais Chultúir Náisiúnta.

On the basis that the Minister has addressed the issue I raised on Committee Stage, if she is not accepting amendment No. 1 I will withdraw it to allow her to move amendment No. 2. I have no difficulty with that.

Acting Chairman

Is the Deputy withdrawing amendment No. 1?

Can the Minister indicate whether she accepts amendment No. 1 or is she pursuing amendment No. 2?

I will pursue amendment No. 2 as it incorporates the substance of the Deputy's argument.

Acting Chairman

The Minister may address amendment No. 2.

There is no real need for further debate as Deputy O'Shea has taken on board the fact that I have accepted the substance of his amendment. That is why I will pursue amendment No. 2, which addresses the issues raised in the debate.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 3, line 11, after "INSTITUTIONS" to insert "OR, IN THE IRISH LANGUAGE, AN CHOMHAIRLE UM FHORAIS CHULTÚIR NÁISIÚNTA".

Amendment agreed to.

Acting Chairman

Amendments Nos. 3 and 15 are to be taken together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 3, between lines 28 and 29, to insert the following:

"(f) any other gallery or museum or heritage institution in the State determined for this purpose by the Council;”.

I cannot accept these amendments as they seek to increase the number of institutions which would draw upon the resources of the heritage fund as well as expanding the Council of National Cultural Institutions beyond that of our national institutions. The net effect of such amendments would be the dilution of the beneficial effect of the fund and they would mitigate against the successful acquisition of important works of national heritage for the national collecting cultural institutions; the country would not be in a better position to acquire significant artefacts.

It should be emphasised that the purpose of the heritage fund is to build up resources which will be available to the principal State collecting cultural institutions in order for them to acquire critically important items of movable heritage. These items or artefacts must be outstanding examples of their type and pre-eminent in their class. Such artefacts will be of a type that their loss to the nation would represent a significant deficiency in our national heritage collection to be handed on to future generations. The fund is not meant to be a general disbursement fund but one of safeguarding Ireland's significant heritage objects.

Members will be aware that section 2 provides a list of five eligible institutions which will benefit from the fund and these are Ireland's principal collecting national institutions and are the National Archives, the National Gallery of Ireland, the National Library of Ireland, the National Museum of Ireland and the Irish Museum of Modern Art. Members will note that not all of the Council of National Cultural Institutions are eligible institutions under this Bill. The beneficiary institutions are only those principal collecting national institutions. Accordingly I cannot agree with the principle to weaken the effects of the Bill and to provide that the general county councils of Ireland or any other agency nominate three additional directors or chief executives to the CNCI. It must be remembered that the function being conferred by statute on the CNCI is but one of its functions. It would be totally inappropriate therefore to have anybody other than the directors or chief executives of the national cultural institutions represented on the body. The CNCI by its very definition is confined, and properly so, to the directors or chief executives of the following national institutions: the National Gallery of Ireland, the National Library of Ireland, the National Museum of Ireland, the Arts Council, the Heritage Council, the Irish Museum of Modern Art, the National Concert Hall, the Chester Beatty Library, the National Theatre Society Limited and the National Archives. To attempt to expand the eligible institutions beyond those listed would negate the focused intention behind the Bill and I therefore cannot support amendments Nos. 3 and 15.

I am sorry I missed the first part of the Minister's contribution on these amendments.

We had a fairly extensive discussion of this on Committee Stage and I felt strongly about it on Second Stage also. We decided to table the amendments again on Report Stage. The points I made on Second Stage and on Committee Stage are still relevant. While I welcome the Bill and the general principle of the fund, which should help us to maintain our heritage, its main weakness is that heritage matters will remain centralised in Dublin. The institutions that will benefit from the fund are based mainly in the capital and board members are nominated by institutions based there. It is obvious the Minister has considered this amendment, but I do not think her reaction is more positive now than it was on Second and Committee Stages. She said on Committee Stage that there would be a lending programme for designated museums and galleries throughout the country. If my amendment is not accepted, the lending programme should be vigorously pursued, at least. People should be able to go to a museum near them to view items of heritage discovered in their locality. I will not press this amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 4, line 42, to delete "months" and substitute "months,".

This is a technical amendment, which proposes to insert a comma after "months".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 5:

In page 5, line 25, to delete "1999" and substitute "2001".

This is another technical amendment, replacing the words "Companies Acts 1963 to 1999" with the words "Companies Acts 1963 to 2001".

Amendment agreed to.

Carlow-Kilkenny): Amendments Nos. 6, 8, 10, 11 and 17 are cognate and amendments Nos. 7 and 9 are alternatives to amendments Nos. 8 and 10, so amendments Nos. 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 17 may be taken together, by agreement.

I move amendment No. 6:

In page 5, line 32, after "£3,000,000" to insert "(3,809,214)".

Amendments Nos. 6, 8, 10, 11 and 17 relate to the euro, which will be introduced on 1 January 2002. Members will note that amendments Nos. 6, 8, and 10 deal with the amounts to be invested in the fund over the five year period. Amendment No. 11 deals with the minimum amount to be paid from the fund for a single artefact. Amendment No. 17 converts the fine for an offence under sections 11 and 12 of the Bill to its euro equivalent. As I stated on Committee Stage, I sought advice from the Chief Parliamentary Counsel regarding the euro. I am pleased to be able to accept the substance of Deputy O'Shea's amendments. The amendments I propose differ slightly from those of Deputy O'Shea, on the advice of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel, on whose advice I have also put forward amendments Nos. 10, 11 and 17.

I thank the Minister for accepting the substance of the amendments I proposed on Committee Stage in relation to the euro. References in the Bill to the pound, which ceases to be legal tender next year, caused me some concern. I have no problem with the Minister's amendments, but perhaps the Minister will clarify why reference to the pound equivalent is being retained along with the euro figure in brackets. On the basis that the euro will be legal tender when moneys are paid to the heritage fund after 1 January 2002, why is it necessary to retain reference to the pound?

The Chief Parliamentary Counsel advised that references to the pound be retained for technical reasons.

I accept the Minister's reply on the basis that she has received advice and, accordingly, I will not move my amendments.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 7 not moved.

I move amendment No. 8:

In page 5, line 33, after "£2,000,000" to insert "(2,539,476)".

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 9 not moved.

I move amendment No. 10:

In page 5, line 35, after "£1,000,000" to insert "(1,269,738)".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 11:

In page 6, line 31, after "£250,000" to insert "(317,435)".

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 12 not moved.

I move amendment No. 13:

In page 7, line 7, after "Institutions" to insert "or, in the Irish language, an Chomhairle um Fhorais Chultúir Náisiúnta".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 14:

In page 7, line 7, after "Council')" to insert "or in the Irish language Comhairle na n-Institiúdí Náisiúnta Cultúrtha".

The substance of my amendment has been covered by amendment No. 12, although my amendment proposes a different Irish version of the name.

That is correct.

I withdraw the amendment as this matter was clarified on Committee Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 15:

In page 7, between lines 22 and 23, to insert the following:

"(k) the Directors or Chief Executives of three galleries or museums which are located outside of the City of Dublin to be nominated by the Council of the General County Councils of Ireland.”.

Acting Chairman

As this amendment has already been discussed with amendment No. 3, the Deputy cannot discuss it again now. He should press the amendment or withdraw it.

As I feel strongly about this amendment, which seeks to extend membership of the board to parts of the country other than Dublin, I will press it.

Amendment put.

Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Bell, Michael.Belton, Louis J.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Bruton, John.Bruton, Richard.Burke, Ulick.Carey, Donal.Clune, Deirdre.Connaughton, Paul.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Creed, Michael.Currie, Austin.Deasy, Austin.Deenihan, Jimmy.Dukes, Alan.Durkan, Bernard.Farrelly, John.Finucane, Michael.Flanagan, Charles.Gilmore, Éamon.Gormley, John.Gregory, Tony.Hayes, Brian.Hayes, Tom.Higgins, Jim.Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael.Hogan, Philip.

Kenny, Enda.McCormack, Pádraic.McDowell, Derek.McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Jim.Mitchell, Olivia.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Owen, Nora.Penrose, William.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Shatter, Alan.Sheehan, Patrick.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.

Níl

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, David.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John (Wexford).Byrne, Hugh.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Coughlan, Mary.Cullen, Martin.Daly, Brendan.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Noel.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Foley, Denis.Fox, Mildred.Gildea, Thomas.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.

Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John J.Martin, Micheál.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donoghue, John.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Kennedy, Michael.O'Malley, Desmond.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Wright, G. V.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Bradford and Stagg; Níl, Deputies S. Brennan and Power.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 16:

In page 7, after line 37, to insert the following:

"(7) A meeting may be conducted through the medium of the Irish or English language.".

Molaim an leasú seo, go mbeadh obair na comhairle tré mheán na Gaeilge nó an Bhéarla. Leasú an-réasúnta é seo. Táimid ag plé le cúrsaí oidhreachta anseo agus tuigeann gach duine gur ghné thábhachtach dár n-oidhreacht an teanga. Go speisialta, ó táimid ag plé chúrsaí oidhreachta agus cultúrtha, is cóir go mbeadh áit lárnach ag an teanga in imeachtaí na comhairle. Ní barraíocht a iarraidh go bhféadfaí an obair a dhéanamh i nGaeilge nó i mBéarla. Nílimid ag cur brú ar éinne Béarla ná Gaeilge a úsáid. Má tá fonn ar éinne an Ghaeilge nó an Béarla a úsáid, táimid ag moladh go mbeadh cead aige nó aici é sin a dhéanamh agus go mbeadh sé sin ins an Acht. Is cóir go mbeadh sé de cheart ag an gcoiste a chuid oibre a dhéanamh tré Ghaeilge nó tré Bhéarla.

I láthair na huaire tá an Bille teanga á ullmhú, Bille atá geallta le ceithre bliana. Deirtear linn anois go mbeidh an Bille ar fáil i dtosach na bliana seo chugainn. Ní cóir dúinn fanacht go dtiocfaidh an Bill teanga fá choinne a háit féin a thabhairt don Ghaeilge. Is féidir linn tosú anois. Molaim an leasú seo.

We discussed this amendment extensively on Committee Stage. We merely ask that meetings of the council may be conducted through the medium of the Irish or English language. We do not say meetings must be conducted through the medium of any one language. That will be entirely the choice of those participating in the meetings.

We are on the threshold of introducing the language Bill but we should not have to wait for the enactment of that legislation to give proper recognition to Irish, the first official language. It is a reasonable amendment and I hope the Minister will give it further consideration.

The language is an important part of our cultural heritage and this is a heritage Bill. We must be positive in our use of the language. The amendment does not compel anyone to use it but it provides that their right to do so is recognised.

I support the amendment. It may not be necessary in a strict legal sense. According to the explanatory memorandum the Bill is poverty proofed and it points out that no adverse implications arise in that respect. It also refers to the impact of the legislation on north-south and east-west relations and on rural communities.

It is anticipated that Bille na Gaeilge will be published early next year and it is expected to provide that all legislation will be Irish language proofed as it is drafted. The more often it is stated that the Irish language could, should, must or may be used the more likely it is that the concept will be planted in the minds of people. This will have a positive effect in terms of their attitude towards using the language.

Deputy McGinley has pointed out that the amendment does not seek to compel, as the use of the word "may" indicates. On Committee Stage, I made it clear that the Irish language should not be used in any context as a stick with which to beat or embarrass people because they do not understand or cannot speak the language. The amendment seeks to help create a climate that would encourage them to be more positive in using it at meetings. In this regard consideration should be given to the provision of a translation system for meetings of An Chomhairle um Fhorais Chultúir Náisiúnta. It would enable those who are not proficient in the language to participate.

People should be encouraged to use the Irish language. We do not know the detail of Bille na Gaeilge and I accept the Minister is not in a position to divulge its contents. However, if it is to have an effective meaning in terms of legislation, Irish language proofing must be part of the procedure in the preparation of all legislation from here on.

We do not seek to create conflict on this issue because the greater the co-operation throughout the House regarding the promotion of the Irish language the better it will be for all. In this spirit I look forward to the Minister's reply. Since Committee Stage she has had the opportunity to reflect further on this amendment. I ask her not to take an exclusively legalistic approach and I accept what she said on Committee Stage that there is nothing to prevent meetings of the council being held in the Irish language. However, acceptance of this amendment would have a positive effect in terms of encouraging those involved in the council and in interpreting the legislation to focus on using the Irish language in the conduct of the affairs of agencies of whatever kind.

I thank both Deputies for their contribution to this issue. We had a long debate on Committee Stage and they will recall I was well disposed to the sentiment of the amendments that were moved then. I accept that the concern is not with compulsion but opportunity.

There is an opportunity for those involved in the council to discuss matters on the agenda of meetings in Irish or in English or in both languages. There is nothing to prevent them from doing that. However, in view of the debate, I again sought the advice of the Parliamentary Counsel.

Amendment No. 16 seeks to legislate in detail the conduct of the CNCI meetings. As I stated on Committee Stage, this is a matter for the members of the council who are wise and experienced individuals and we should allow them to agree to the conduct of their meetings and procedures as stipulated under section 10. I am conscious of the positive approach taken by the Deputies towards the Bill and I have attempted to be as sympathetic as possible to their views. The Parliamentary Counsel has advised that the amendment is not appropriate and that it is unnecessary and superfluous. In the circumstances, my legal advice is strong and despite some regard for the purpose of the amendment, I cannot accept it. I oppose it in view of the technical legal reasons put to me by the Parliamentary Counsel. I must take cognisance of its advice.

What is the position regarding members of the council who are native Irish speakers? Will they be unable to make their contribution in their native language? Will they have to revert to their second language, which is English? Does the Minister not agree that this would create an element of discrimination? The absence of a facility to conduct meetings in both languages would probably militate more against the Irish rather than English speakers.

The Minister's Department is responsible for the promotion of the language. She is an tAire Ealaíon, Oidhreachta, Gaeltachta agus Oileán. The language plays a very important role in her Department. When I first became a Member of this House some years ago the Department conducted its affairs entirely in Irish. Any time one consulted the Department one was sure that Irish was the predominant language and often the only language in use. Unfortunately, that is no longer the case.

I know there are reasons for that. We do not favour compulsion any more, but we are all in favour of a voluntary effort. There has been a downgrading of Irish throughout the Department and that cannot be denied by the Minister or anybody else as I have experienced it myself. I hope the Minister is aware of her responsibility towards the language in spite of the advice received by the Minister. As Deputy O'Shea said, I do not think there is language proofing. If the Bill was introduced next year I suppose my amendment would have been included in light of Bille na Gaeilge which we expect to be passed in the next year.

Obviously the Minister has had strong legal advice on this issue and will not change her position. When the council is in place, will the Minister notify it that it is possible for it to conduct meetings through Irish or English? Perhaps she will also examine the provision of a translation service to facilitate the use of Irish at such meetings. I ask her to notify this possibility to other boards within her remit and to seek the support of her colleagues in Government regard ing boards under their jurisdiction so they are advised that they can conduct business through Irish or English. I also ask that they be asked to explore the issue of translation facilities. If what I am suggesting was pursued by the Minister it would be a significant step forward. It would be no more than notifying people there is nothing preventing them from holding meetings through Irish if they so desire. We need to go a step further in terms of providing translation services. If a number of boards required such a service, the State could examine putting a translation service in place.

I very much agree with the sentiments expressed by both Deputies. I wish to reiterate the voluntary effort in this context. Any body can conduct its business in Irish or English, or both, depending on what they wish. The CNCI will be well aware that it can conduct its business through Irish if that is the wish of its members. If the CNCI decides to conduct its affairs through Irish and requires translation facilities, I would have no problem ensuring funding for such translation is put in place. As the Deputies said, we are here to encourage the Irish language which is a very important part of our heritage. I cannot accept the amendment because of legal technicalities of which I have been advised by the Parliamentary Counsel. However, there is no question of discriminating against those who wish to speak the first national language, as is their constitutional right.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 17:

In page 8, line 44, after "£1,500" to insert "(1,904)".

Amendment agreed to.
Bill, as amended, received for final consideration.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

I compliment the Minister on bringing this very important Bill before the House. I also compliment her officials on their work. I wish the council and the Minister every success in building up our art trove over the coming years.

Ba mhaith liomsa an tAire a mholadh chomh maith as an Bille a thabhairt isteach. Nuair a bheidh sé in a reachtaíocht rachaidh se chun sochar go mór agus coinneoidh sé earraí sa tír a d'fhagfadh an tír, b'fhéidir, agus tabharfaidh sé earraí ar ais don tír a d'imigh as an tír roimhe seo. Más mall is mithid. Is fearr go mall ná go brách. Cuirim fáilte roimh an Bille. Comhgháirdeas leis an Aire agus leis an Roinn.

I thank my colleagues for their tremendous contribution and support on All Stages. I also thank my officials.

Question put and agreed to.
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