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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Dec 2001

Vol. 546 No. 4

Order of Business.

I wish to raise a point of order. Before the Taoiseach announces the Order of Business, will he take this opportunity to correct the record? Yesterday, in relation to questions about Mr. Justice Flood, he stated: "It is not a question of better answers, but of facts. Last summer Mr. Justice Flood asked for the appointment of two additional judges". I do not doubt that someone in his office will have drawn to the Taoiseach's attention that this statement was incorrect and he may wish to correct the record. Mr. Justice Flood actually stated:

The Tribunal is desirous that paragraph 3 of the Instrument be amended by providing for the nomination of two further persons to be Members of the Tribunal to the intent that the Tribunal shall cease to be a Tribunal comprising of a Sole Member and shall become a three Member Tribunal under the Chairmanship of Mr. Justice Feargus Flood and further by the nomination of a further person to sit with the Tribunal to hear evidence with a view to such person being available to become a Member of the Tribunal in the event that any existing Member of the Tribunal, for any reason, is unable to continue to act.

My note from the Attorney General indicates that Mr. Justice Flood had asked for the appointment of two additional judges and a substitute alternate. The note makes it clear that the alternate could be someone other than a judge.

I quoted from the official note from Mr. Justice Flood. In a conversation between the Attorney General and Deputy Howlin, reference was made to "persons" rather than judges.

We must proceed with the Order of Business. I call the Taoiseach.

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 21a, Social Welfare (No. 2) Bill, 2001 – Financial Resolution; No. 7, Social Welfare (No. 2) Bill, 2001 – Second Stage (resumed); No. 21b, motion re Adoption of a Council Framework Decision on the European Arrest Warrant and the surrender procedures between member states; No. 21c, motion re Adoption of a Council Framework Decision on Combating Terrorism; No. 50, Air Navigation and Transport (Indemnities) Bill, 2001 – Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; and No. 8, Public Health (Tobacco) Bill, 2001 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. and business shall be interrupted not later than 10 p.m. and the sitting shall be suspended between 6.30 p.m. and 7 p.m.; No. 21a shall be decided without debate; the resumed Second Stage of No. 7, shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 60 minutes; the proceedings on Nos. 21b and 21c, which shall be taken separately, shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 90 minutes in each case and the following arrangements shall apply: the opening speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes; Members may share time; and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; and the Report and Final Stages of No. 50 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 10 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Public Enterprise. Private Members' Business shall be No. 117, motion re Enlargement of the European Union (resumed) to conclude at 8.30 p.m.

There are five proposals to be put to the House. Are the arrangements for the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 21a without debate agreed?

I am opposing this proposition. This proposal refers the Social Welfare (No. 2) Bill, which will enable the Minister for Finance to raid the social insurance fund, to committee. I wish to point out to the Taoiseach that—

The proposal does not refer the Bill to the committee; it relates to the financial resolution.

It is the intention of the Government to disguise the fact that there is an underlying deficit by taking money from the social insurance fund. I am opposing this proposition.

Yesterday when I asked the House and in particular the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs whether there would be such a motion before the House, the indication was that there would not. Standing Order 29 states:

All motions to be put on the Order Paper for any day, shall be in writing, signed by a Member, and shall reach the Clerk not later than 11 a.m. on the fourth preceding day. Any amendments to such motions shall be in writing, signed by a Member, and shall reach the Clerk not later than 11 a.m. on the second preceding day: Provided that, by permission of the Ceann Comhairle, motions and amendments may be made on shorter notice.

Has the Chair formally given approval?

Are you satisfied with that?

Do you think the House is doing its business properly?

They did not know yesterday that they had a motion. The person who will be responsible for raising this was not aware of it.

This is an elected dictatorship.

It is a smash and grab raid.

Order. I point out that Standing Order 141(2) provides that the Committee Stage of a Bill which involves a charge upon the people shall not be taken unless a motion approving of the charge has been passed by the Dáil. That is this motion. Is the proposal for dealing with the motion agreed to?

They did not realise that they needed a motion.

That is the Chair's decision. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 21a agreed to?

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with Item 21a, Financial Resolution re Social Welfare (No. 2) Bill, 2001 be agreed to".

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, David.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Harry.

Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Byrne, Hugh.Callely, Ivor. Carey, Pat.

Tá–continued

Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dennehy, John.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.

McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John J.Martin, Micheál.Moffatt, Thomas.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donoghue, John.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Desmond.O'Rourke, Mary.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Woods, Michael.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Bell, Michael.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Bruton, Richard.Burke, Ulick.Carey, Donal.Clune, Deirdre.Connaughton, Paul.Cosgrave, Michael.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.D'Arcy, Michael.Deasy, Austin.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard.Enright, Thomas.Finucane, Michael.Fitzgerald, Frances.Flanagan, Charles.Gilmore, Éamon.Gormley, John.Hayes, Tom.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Jim.Howlin, Brendan.McCormack, Pádraic.

McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Jim.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Owen, Nora.Penrose, William.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Shatter, Alan.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Power; Níl, Deputies Bradford and Stagg.
Question declared carried.

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 7, the conclusion of Second Stage of the Social Welfare (No. 2) Bill, 2001, agreed to?

No. What is proposed is a guillotine. I have consistently opposed what is increasingly becoming an elective dictatorship in the House where Members are being denied time to give even cursory scrutiny to legislation with which they fundamentally disagree. We certainly disagree with the one hour guillotine in this case.

I will put the question.

Sir, can I—

No. Two speakers from the one group cannot speak. It is not in order.

I wish to make a suggestion which might find favour with the Taoiseach and which Deputy Howlin wished to make. There is 90 minutes allowed for each motion. With the Taoiseach's agreement, 30 minutes could be taken from the time allotted for each and the extra hour could be allocated to the debate on the Social Welfare Bill. Could the Taoiseach change the order on that basis?

I agree to that.

The proposal is for two hours. Is the amended proposal to deal with No. 7, Second Stage of the Social Welfare (No. 2) Bill, 2001, agreed to? Agreed. Is the amended proposal for dealing with Nos. 21b and 21c, that is, one hour's debate on each, agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 50, conclusion of Report and Final Stages of the Air Navigation and Transport (Indemnities) Bill, 2001, agreed to? Agreed.

The Taoiseach is probably aware that the users of the Vantastic service have begun what has become an annual protest at the gates of Leinster House to highlight the inadequate funding to keep the service going. The Taoiseach may not know that it is the commitment of the people in wheelchairs and their supporters to stay outside Leinster House indefinitely. They were there right through last night in very cold conditions. Will the Taoiseach intervene in this matter. This service changes enormously the lives of persons who are disabled, especially those in wheelchairs. It allows them to go to work and gives them the mobility that they lack. It is a great service.

In reply to a parliamentary question put down in my name, the only commitment given by the Government was to increase the grant given to this service to match inflation. That is not sufficient. There is a very serious situation here. Disabled people in wheelchairs were outside this House last night in very cold conditions and they intend to stay outside this House right through Christmas. The Taoiseach should intervene at this stage so that the service can continue. On current funding, it will close at the end of February. We cannot stand over that and this House should unite to ensure that the service continues. The amount of money requested is modest given the total budget.

I support this modest request. Does the Taoiseach not agree that, at a time when his Government can reduce employers PRSI contributions by the massive sum of 330 million, it is quite possible from the extensive resources available to this administration to provide sufficient funds to ensure that people with disability can live independently? It is through no fault of their own that they have a physical disability which impairs their potential and opportunity. All they ask is to have the same mobility in effective terms that the rest of us enjoy because of our able-bodied status. The limited funds required are available to this Government in abundance. A clear signal should be given by the Taoiseach that the necessary additional sums, above and beyond the rate of inflation, will be made available to this group.

I have no argument with what Deputies have said. This matter was brought to my attention yesterday. Vantastic provides targeted transport for 400 people with disabilities funded by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I was informed that the service received £350,000 in the year 2000, £350,000 in 2001 and that £370,000 has been provided for the forthcoming year. There is no question of discontinuing that funding. I have since been informed that Vantastic is looking for additional cover. I am not certain what that cover is but I will have the matter looked at. However, I emphasise that there is no question of discontinuing the funding that has been in place for the past two years. If some other matter arises, I will ask the disability equality unit to examine it.

Is the Taoiseach aware that because this is such a good service, because it changes the lives of persons with disability to such a degree, and in particular because it allows them to participate in the world of work, the service has expanded and is expanding? The expanded service cannot be covered with a grant of £370,000. The grant aid will run out sometime in late February or early March. It must be increased. An indexation increase is not sufficient. The service needs in excess of £1 million to cover the costs for one year of providing the service they do now. That is not huge money in relation to the budget. The Taoiseach should get the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to deal with this as a matter of urgency rather than being dragged into agreeing something on Christmas eve because of the hardship experienced by those on protest outside the gates of this House.

I will look at this service. It provides transport for 400 people with disabilities. I understand from the note from the Union of Students of Ireland that Vantastic intends to provide that service for the year ahead also. I do not know how costs have risen so much if they are providing the same service. However, I will have the matter looked at. There seemed to be a view in one of the notes I received last night that funding was to be withdrawn from the service. That is not the case but I will ask the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Wallace, to examine the matter.

The service has substantially expanded over the past two years.

It is the only way that some people can get to college and university.

Late last night or early this morning, Members received a very short Bill, the Referendum Bill, 2001, which proposes a change to the way in which referenda are conducted in this State. This House has finished the debate on the Twenty-fifth Amendment of the Constitution (Protection of Human Life in Pregnancy) Bill, 2001 – the so-called abortion Bill. There was a Second Stage debate on the Bill in the Seanad last week where the leader of the Progressive Democrats, who is still in partnership in Government and has considerable authority as Tánaiste, indicated that there may not be a referendum on the Bill and on the abortion issue. In the light of the authoritative statements made by a senior member of the Coalition Government, will the Taoiseach indicate to the House if it is the Government decision to proceed with the abortion referendum? If so, has a date been fixed for that abortion referendum?

Is the Taoiseach aware that the group which used to be known as Youth Defence and is now campaigning on the referendum as the Mother and Child group, intend to put up billboards around the country aimed personally at the Taoiseach and the Minister for Health and Children. I assure the Taoiseach that I deplore this type of campaigning, as should all Deputies in the House. Issues like this should not be personalised. My party wants to continue this debate by keeping hysteria out.

The answer to Deputy Quinn's question is, yes. In reply to his next question, the Government has not fixed a date for the referendum. That will be discussed in the New Year. The small legislative changes are totally in line with the all-party Oireachtas committee report, and I believe the reference is on page 25. I thank Deputy Noonan for his comments which I appreciate. We can have our arguments and debates, and we have had a lengthy debate on this issue, but I am well able to take the ridicule of this group in their costly campaign. However, it is not the way to make a point.

I am not sure whether I should direct my supplementary question to the Taoiseach or the Tánaiste. The Ceann Comhairle might advise me.

To the Taoiseach.

(Interruptions.)

The Tánaiste was quoted by her leader in the Seanad last week as stating it would be unwise to proceed finally to a referendum unless sufficient, broad, middle ground support for the proposition is apparent. In respect of the setting of a date for the referendum as distinct from the decision in principle to hold the refer endum, is it likely the Government will decide not to proceed with the setting of a date for the referendum if it is manifestly clear, as it is today, that there is no broad, middle ground consensus in favour of this proposition?

I hope that there is broad, middle ground support.

There is not.

Not even within the Government.

The Government will discuss that issue in the new year and then fix the date.

Then fix the date. The Tánaiste is gone again.

That concludes leader's questions. We now come to the other questions.

Will the Bill concerning an ombudsman for children be published this term or is there some delay? Is the Taoiseach confident the Bill will be out before the end of this Dáil term? Will the children of asylum seekers be covered under the remit of the Bill because of the appalling findings of the recent "Beyond the Pale" report on social exclusion in Ireland?

Questions on what the Bill will deal with are not relevant to the Order of Business.

As far as the children of asylum seekers are concerned, they should be covered by this legislation.

Questions about that are not relevant to the Order of Business.

Sorry, a Cheann Comhairle, I asked about the ombudsman for children Bill.

The Bill is almost ready and it is hoped it will be circulated next week.

A Cheann Comhairle, my question is once again for you and it arises from a question I posed last week. You will have again received contact from Mr. Ray Doyle in relation to a complaint—

I intend to make an announcement today on that matter.

Thank you, Sir.

In the House?

I wish to raise two matters with the Taoiseach. Sir, I understand that just a few minutes ago, the Supreme Court required that Deputy Lawlor serve seven days in prison.

That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Does the Taoiseach agree that it is a disgrace that a Member of this House—

This is not relevant to the Order of Business. The Deputy cannot raise that matter at this stage. I call Deputy Gilmore.

(Interruptions.)

The Deputy is being disorderly. It is not in order on the Order of Business.

(Interruptions.)

The Deputy should resume his seat. It is not in order. We are on the Order of Business. The Deputy's comment is not in order.

It is a matter relating to the integrity of this House.

Maybe it can be raised in other ways but it is not in order at this stage. I call Deputy Gilmore with a relevant question on the Order of Business.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Shatter must resume his seat. He is being disorderly. He must resume his seat and wait his turn. I have called Deputy Gilmore.

What is the point setting up tribunals if Members will not co-operate?

This is the Order of Business. I call Deputy Gilmore on the Order of Business.

I would like to ask the Taoiseach three questions on the Referendum Bill circulated this morning by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government. When will that Bill be considered in the House? When did the Government decide to bring forward this Bill? Does publication of the Bill mean that a referendum commission will be established for the purposes of the abortion referendum to be held in the new year?

The legislation will be taken subject to discussions with the Whips. This Bill has been before the Government for the past few weeks. As I said earlier, a date for the referendum will be picked by the Government in due course.

When will the legislation be taken?

It will have to be discussed by the Whips.

I raised questions with the Minister for the Environment and Local Government last week on the referendum commission and he was not able to tell me whether a commission would be established. It seems pretty clear from the publication of this Bill that it is the Government's intention – as the Taoiseach has said, it has been under consideration for a number of weeks – to establish a referendum commission with amended terms of reference as published in this Bill. The Taoiseach should tell the House the Government's intention in regard to the establishment of a referendum commission for a referendum which he intends to hold in the new year and for which he has now introduced new legislation.

That is set out in the Bill. There will be a commission with the terms set out in the Bill.

Somebody tell the Minister for the Environment and Local Government.

(Mayo): Yesterday on the Order of Business, the Leader of the Labour Party highlighted the fact that only two of the 16 promised items of legislation, which were to be published before the Christmas recess, had appeared. The Taoiseach replied by saying that he hoped nine of the promised items of legislation would appear by next week which is not a great performance – less than 60%. I ask the Taoiseach about two of the Bills promised under public enterprise, the Digital Hub Agency Bill and the Railway Safety Bill – two very important items of legislation, particularly the latter Bill. Will they be among the nine Bills which will appear this week or next week?

I understand both Bills will, and they will be circulated next week.

Last night a group of people felt it necessary to protest outside this House. Wheelchair bound people—

That matter was dealt with during leaders questions.

Wheelchair bound people—

The Deputy is out of order and cannot continue.

(Interruptions.)

Will the Deputy put his question on promised legislation?

The necessity for wheelchair bound people to protest—

The Deputy is out of order. He should resume his seat.

(Interruptions.)

If the Deputy does not resume his seat, I will have to ask him to leave the House.

Do not ask me to leave the House because this is too important a matter—

If the Deputy does not resume his seat, I will ask him to leave the House.

(Interruptions.)

The Deputy is being disorderly. He must resume his seat.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Boylan must now leave the House.

That is wrong in a democratic society.

Deputy Boylan must now leave the House. The Deputy is being disorderly.

I will do so under protest.

If the Deputy does not leave, I will take the next step.

Go home now, Andrew.

At least I can walk. That is a poor remark from a Minister.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Boylan withdrew from the Chamber.

I call Deputy Crawford with something appropriate to the Order of Business.

In light of problems for people in need of work permits, when will the work permits Bill be introduced so that we can discuss how the system works and why some people seem to get work permits while others do not?

The work permits legislation is still being prepared. It will be introduced next year.

The Taoiseach told the House a moment ago that the Railway Safety Bill will be published this week.

No, next week.

I might as well bring it to the attention of the House that the Minister told us yesterday that the heads are only going to Government this week.

No, the Bill is going to Government.

The Minister said the heads are going to Government.

The full Bill, the full monty.

The Taoiseach said the Bill will be published next week but it will not be.

I call Deputy Shatter.

I wish to raise two issues with the Taoiseach. There are provisions in the Courts and Courts Officers Bill published last spring to change the court jurisdictions to euro amounts. Why has that legislation not been brought before the House for Second Stage debate to enable matters to be put in order before 1 January? Is the Taoiseach aware that Bill allows for the appointment of additional members of the Judiciary? Will he explain why the Bill has been given no priority in light of the difficulties experienced in finding members of the Judiciary to sit on the Flood tribunal?

The Deputy has made his point. When will the legislation come before the House?

The legislation was published last April and is awaiting Order for Second Stage.

Deputy Shatter, do you have a question on another matter?

On a different matter, Sir. Does the Taoiseach intend to forward a complaint to the ethics committee of this House about the behaviour of Deputy Lawlor—

That is totally out of order. I call Deputy Gormley.

—for failing to comply with the orders of the Flood tribunal?

Deputy Shatter, I ask you to resume your seat.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Shatter, resume your seat please.

Deputy Shatter, if you do not resume your seat, I will ask you to leave the House.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Shatter, do you wish to leave the House?

The Taoiseach should have something to say about that.

The choice is yours.

You are looking for a double, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

I call Deputy Gormley.

You scored once already.

Allow Deputy Gormley to speak without interruption.

You scored once already; you want a double this morning.

When will the Referendum Bill, 2001, come before the House? It is disgraceful legislation which seeks to undo the McKenna judgment.

I have dealt with that matter already, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

When is it going to come before the House?

I call Deputy Penrose.

Is the Taoiseach aware that during the passage of the Disease of Animals (Amendment) Act, 2001, a commitment was given to review the operation of some parts of that Act at the end of the year? A commitment was also given that there would be a consolidated or codified disease of animals Act?

When will the legislation come before the House, Taoiseach?

The Act was enacted on 9 March. If there is a question of some element of it coming back for review, the Deputy should put down a question for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development.

I have a continuing concern regarding the failure of the Government to implement the decision of the people to ratify the International Criminal Court. This is my last chance in this session to get an update on when the necessary legislation will be put in place. Can the Taoiseach give me a prospective date as to when we can discharge our international obligations, honour the will of the people and ratify the Rome statute so we can participate in the court?

The Taoiseach is ignoring the result of the referendum.

With regard to giving effect to the Rome statute and the International Criminal Court, work is in progress in the Department. I do not have a date but I will ask the Department to forward one to the Deputy.

The Taoiseach wants to have another referendum.

On the question of promised legislation, will the Taoiseach indicate to the House when it is likely to introduce referendum legislation regarding the contents of the Nice Treaty considering that the treaty must be ratified by this time next year.

I answered that yesterday. There is no proposed legislation at this stage.

I want to ask not so much about promised legislation as a promise. The Taoiseach gave a promise to a group that he would find funding for the Irish Seal Sanctuary in the Fingal area of County Dublin, where seals are minded, nursed back to health and put back into the waters. Why did the Taoiseach not live up to that commitment in the budget because the group now has to close down?

Questions must be on legislation.

It is a promise the Taoiseach made. They wrote and told us—

Questions must be on proposed legislation, Deputy.

It does not need legislation.

Then it not relevant.

The Taoiseach must need to be taken care of some time.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Enright without interruption.

As the Taoiseach is probably aware, in connection with proposed legislation, the delays in having inquests often run from four months to a year, which causes enormous worry and concern to people—

The question must be on legislation.

Precisely, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. When will we have the opportunity to discuss this matter which is relevant to the Coroners Bill?

The Deputy cannot make a statement.

Without having an inquest carried out—

There is legislation promised to give effect to the working group in the Coroners Service. Work is in progress in the Department. We will be able to discuss the matter early in 2002.

The Minister for Justice—

Deputy Enright, allow Deputy Timmins to speak.

(Interruptions.)

On promised legislation, the Minister for Defence made a commitment to the relevant representative associations that he would publish the Ombudsman (Defence Forces) Bill in early November. He received many plaudits at the time. However, it has not been published to date. Will the Taoiseach tell me when it might be published?

Briefly, on the same issue, the Taoiseach told the House last week that it would be published no later than yesterday.

Is the Deputy referring to the Ombudsman (Defence Forces) Bill?

It passed Government yesterday. If it is not published today, it should be published within the next 24 hours.

When will the Taoiseach have the real opinion poll? It is very necessary.

Deputy, that does not arise on the Order of Business. We will move on to No. 19b.

(Interruptions.)

Has Deputy Belton a question related to the Order of Business?

Has the Taoiseach been speaking to the Minister for Education and Science about Newtownforbes school? This is the third time I have raised the matter.

I suggest that the Deputy submits a parliamentary question on the matter.

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