Michael Noonan
Question:1 Mr. Noonan asked the Taoiseach when he expects the commission of inquiry into the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombings to complete its work; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1142/02]
Ceisteanna – Questions. - Dublin-Monaghan Bombings.
Tony Gregory
Question:2 Mr. Gregory asked the Taoiseach when the commission of inquiry into the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombings will issue its report; if the British authorities have made available material requested by the commission; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3430/02]
Trevor Sargent
Question:3 Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach when the commission of inquiry into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings will complete its work; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3433/02]
Ruairí Quinn
Question:4 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach when he expects the Barron inquiry into the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombings will complete its work; if he envisages receiving an interim report; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3508/02]
Trevor Sargent
Question:5 Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach the agreement which has now been reached with the Brit ish Government concerning the hand-over of files to the independent commission of inquiry into the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombings; if a time limit was placed on the handing over of files; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3832/02]
Jimmy Deenihan
Question:6 Mr. Deenihan asked the Taoiseach if he has had recent discussions with the UK Government regarding the release of information to Mr. Justice Barron in order that he can complete and publish his report into the Dublin-Monaghan bombings; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4263/02]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 6, inclusive, together.
As Deputies will be aware, the commission of inquiry is independent and does not report to me. The timescale for completion of the report is a matter for Mr. Justice Barron. I am hopeful that he will be able to complete his report as soon as possible, but that will be influenced by the amount of material he receives from the British authorities. Mr. Justice Barron had a useful meeting with the Secretary of State, Dr. John Reid, on 17 January and outlined his requirements. Dr. Reid promised that material would be provided within weeks. In addition, Mr. Justice Barron recently met representatives of the Police Service of Northern Ireland and material is also expected from that source.
Mr. Justice Barron has agreed that his report into the bombings will reflect his consideration of other cases, including the Dublin bombings of 1972 and 1973, the Castleblaney bombing of 1976, the case of John Francis Green, and the case of Bríd Carr. I am very grateful for his work to date and for agreeing to report on these cases.
The Taoiseach is no doubt aware of the disappointment expressed, in particular by the families of the 33 victims of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, whom he has met, as have I. They expressed strong disappointment with the meeting between the Secretary of State, Dr. Reid, and Mr. Justice Barron. Can the Taoiseach tell us what transcribed at that meeting and what commitment was given? Has any of the documentation requested been provided to date and what are the Taoiseach's expectations?
Mr. Justice Barron does not report to me, but the report which he has passed on states he had a very good meeting with Dr. Reid. Dr. Reid was very forthcoming, took careful note of the files and the information required by Mr. Justice Barron and both he and his officials undertook to research and provide them. I understand from officials working with Mr. Justice Barron that Dr. Reid and his colleagues asked for a number of weeks to prepare what was sought. It is now three weeks since the meeting. It was not expected to have the information by now as Dr. Reid's officials requested that they be allowed until March to provide it.
The content of the Taoiseach's reply poses the question: why has the British Government not been forthcoming before now? How can it promise to make this information available within weeks, when it is over a year since it was first asked for it and nothing was forthcoming then? The Taoiseach stated the timescale for the inquiry is a matter for Mr. Justice Barron, but I am sure he believes that he has a commitment to the relatives to conclude it before the life of this Dáil ends. If that is not possible, will an interim report be made available before the general election?
It has been gravely disappointing that the British authorities have not been able to provide this information more quickly. The Deputy is totally correct in that. We have pressed them very hard to do so and it was only after direct meetings with the British Prime Minister regarding the matter that he agreed to set up the meetings. The question now is whether the British authorities have this information. Mr. Justice Barron has established what it is he requires and, while I am not privy to it, I sense that he, and before him the late Mr. Justice Hamilton, pieced together an enormous amount of information. They have established what to look for, but whether what is sought exists, I do not know. I hope it does. Mr. Justice Barron at least felt at the end of his meeting, as has been reported to me, that it was a good meeting and that he believed there would be a genuine search and retrieval system put in place to try to fill in this information, although it has taken a year as the Deputy stated.
On the second matter, as Mr. Justice Barron has gone through it, they have documented all the information that they have over the past two years or so. It really depends on the extent of the information they receive from the Police Service of Northern Ireland and from the British authorities, the NIO or wherever else. That really will determine the information that they have.
The other cases that I mentioned are ones which Mr. Justice Barron has agreed to deal with, but his work to date has crossed many of these cases anyway and therefore I do not think that will create any delay.
Will the Taoiseach indicate whether the meeting which Dr. John Reid had with Mr. Justice Barron, apart from being a good meeting and the Secretary of State being very forthcoming, included anything by way of an agreement to hand over information or a timescale for the implementation of such an agreement, which would be of some succour to the victims and their families? Will he give an opinion on their own view, that essentially what is needed is the establishment of a cross-jurisdictional tri bunal of inquiry, which they believe – they have legal advice on this – could be done under the 1920 UK tribunals Act? If that is not possible, will the Taoiseach indicate whether a public tribunal of inquiry is to be set up as the next best option, which is their view? As they have legal advice, can I ask the Taoiseach to investigate further the veracity of that legal advice, which indicates the 1920 UK tribunals Act might be a basis for a cross-jurisdictional tribunal of inquiry?
I have given all the information I have about that meeting with Dr. John Reid. As I said, the tribunal is independent but they have given me that information for use in the House. Dr. Reid promised that material would be provided within weeks and I think there was an understanding between Dr. Reid and Mr. Justice Barron about what "within weeks" meant, but that is an understanding between them.
On the other matter, the Deputy is ranging into another area. What we had agreed with the families, the relatives, their spokespersons and their legal representatives was that this process would be undertaken by Mr. Justice Hamilton, now deceased, and Mr. Justice Barron who kindly took up the brief. Both of them put an enormous amount of work into it. At the end of that process it will be reported to the Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, as we agreed here, and then we will have to see where we will go from there. Until this stage is finished, however, we should not get into looking at any other stage.
I have two questions to put to the Taoiseach arising from the replies he has given to the House. Do I take it that Mr. Justice Barron has now identified fairly concisely the areas around which he is seeking information from the British authorities and that therefore the massive trawl through reams of files is not necessary in that they have been pinpointed? The Taoiseach seemed to indicate that when he replied on 13 November. If that is the case, whatever is in those files, they ought to be located fairly soon. Would that be correct?
If I am correct in assuming that in order to facilitate co-operation between the British and Irish Governments the Taoiseach gave the impression in Donegal recently that, in so far as the Irish Government had any documentation that would be of interest to the Saville inquiry, documentation in the hands of the security authorities south of the Border relating to Bloody Sunday and the events surrounding Bloody Sunday, would be made available to the British authorities in general and to the Saville inquiry in particular, can the Taoiseach confirm whether information under the control of the Irish authorities, including the Government, has been made available to the Saville inquiry?
In reply to Deputy Quinn's first question, Mr. Justice Barron and his team have identified their requirements and have pieced together the sequence as they believe it. I said that any records or information we had should be made available but that was a long time ago and I honestly do not know if the offer was taken up. I can check if the Deputy wishes. I do not know if they asked for it but I certainly made that commitment.
It seems the key issue in making requests to the British Government has always been to establish if it had information about any possible participation by people associated with it in the bombing incidents. That is what we are all dancing around. Apart from asking for such files, what particular requests has Mr. Justice Barron made to confine information to more specific areas? Was there any reluctance on the part of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Dr. Reid, to provide access to the files of the British army, RUC or intelligence agencies based in the United Kingdom, in addition to normal departmental files which may contain reports on what happened on that awful day in Dublin and Monaghan?
I emphasise that Mr. Justice Barron is independent. I do not have the list of questions he put. As I already told Deputy Quinn, the commission is very clear about what it wishes to obtain. The information I have is that Mr. Justice Barron believes his meeting with Dr. Reid was useful and that Dr. Reid was forthcoming. Some questions remain. Does that information still exist? If it does, to what extent does it exist and what help will be files in the Northern Ireland Office or elsewhere? I do not know if those records exist or what contacts or relationships there are with either the British army or other intelligence agencies. Mr. Justice Barron is very clear about the information he is seeking and has focused in on what he believes the facts to be but it is a question of how much information remains. Mr. Justice Barron is adamant that information must be available in some form, as was Mr. Justice Hamilton before him. During the investigations, people who helped from outside have seen reports, which I believe to be correct, in which people provided names, facts and circumstances. All of those have been followed through. We must await the report for the quantification of those facts and to find out whether these people are real and what their relationships and involvement were.
I thank the Taoiseach for that helpful reply. While we acknowledge that Dr. Reid was trying to be helpful, did he actually confirm the existence of files which might be of help to Mr. Justice Barron or did he simply repeat the commitment given by the British Government on a number of occasions to be helpful if such files existed?
Dr. Reid indicated that material would be made available. It took quite a long time to arrange the meeting and it is clear from our exchanges here what they focused on. I would be surprised, although perhaps I should not, had the existence of information not been checked. Time will tell.
Given the significant investment in resources and the enormity of the crimes committed, has the Taoiseach given any thought to the possibility of advertisements being placed in prominent international newspapers offering a reward to those who may be able to provide useful information? Has he given any thought to using the mechanism of the Good Friday Agreement to highlight where the information sought by the commission is not forthcoming from the British Government? Will the Taoiseach clarify if the Attorney General can say whether the State has any right under international law to demand the co-operation being sought by the Barron commission?
On the final question, the information has been promised. The issue of the Attorney General seeking international powers should not arise.
The issue of advertisements was raised by the relatives at an early stage and it was agreed that advertisements would be placed in all the Irish national newspapers and the main ones in Northern Ireland. That was done and there was no request to go further. Those advertisements were reported extensively in newspapers in America and the United Kingdom. They received broad circulation and I understand they also received publicity on the Internet. They were publicised widely.
I do not have any proposal to offer a reward. I understand some people outside both jurisdictions who would have been involved at the time have come forward. This has been reported in the media. I hope it will not be necessary to resort to offering a reward. We continue to communicate with the families and to keep open the lines of co-operation with them.
(Dublin West): It is two years last month since the commission was established and 12 months since the first formal request to the British Government for information and documents was made. Does it strike the Taoiseach that the actions of that Government are those of one anxious to assist in getting to the truth of the atrocities of Dublin and Monaghan? Does it not rather strengthen the suspicion that the British Government's security service is deliberately dragging its heels because it has something to hide? What does the Taoiseach make of this inordinate delay?
The Taoiseach has requested the commission to investigate another series of atrocities and unsolved events which require investigation. Has he discussed with Mr. Justice Barron if it is his intention to investigate everything before reporting or to report first on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, the initial reason for the commission's establishment? In this regard, does the Taoiseach believe it would be a good idea that an interim report on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings would come before the Dáil before it is dissolved in a few months' time?
I would like to see the report as soon as possible. That is my clear position, although it is perhaps a new Dáil which will examine it in committee and decide on further action.
I assure the House that the cases I mentioned will not delay the commission. Mr. Justice Barron has read himself through the entire period and all the information we have. The other cases I have mentioned fall into his work and form part of it. He has read and, I think, reached conclusions on these cases. Mr. Justice Barron and his officials have gone back to the late 1960s and early 1970s and have gone through everything in the past 30 years or more. These cases have been worked through in the overall Dublin-Monaghan investigation and they will not delay matters. The families of those involved in those cases are concerned that we reach a conclusion so they do not cause a difficulty.
There is one other case which I have not mentioned and on which a conclusion has not yet been reached. Talks are ongoing with the family in this case and it is not certain if the family will agree. The bombings in Dublin in 1972 and 1973, in both of which incidents people were killed, the case of John Francis Greene who was killed in Monaghan and Bríd Clarke who was killed outside Lifford are longstanding cases and have created difficulties locally. However, these cases will not delay the work.
I cannot add anything to what I have said. We have put a great deal of pressure on the British Government at every level. We have now at least been granted meetings with the Police Service of Northern Ireland, who know what Mr. Justice Barron and his team are seeking to do and appreciate his concerns regarding linkages and contacts in the PSNI, the Northern Ireland Office or other arms of the administration in Northern Ireland which he believes could be helpful. I hope useful information will be forthcoming.
I do not believe an interim report would be useful until this information is received. As Mr. Justice Barron and his colleagues have gone through the work in the past two years they have been weighing up the facts and the documents. They are not waiting until all information has been collated before starting to work on the facts.
(Mayo): In view of the scale of the massacre of innocent people in Dublin and Monaghan, does the Taoiseach agree the construction of a commemorative monument would be appropriate to preserve the memory of those who were killed in 1974? Their families feel aggrieved and forgotten and such a gesture would at least preserve the memory of those who died.
There is such a monument in Dublin. I am in favour of helping the families in whatever way we can. I hope they do not feel as forgotten as they did because we have spent much time and effort working with them. I know they have worked particularly well with Mr. Justice Barron, as they did with Mr. Justice Hamilton. There is an annual commemorative Mass which many Members from all sides of the House regularly attend.
Having regard to the process which has informed the House's search for clarity and truth and notwithstanding his recently expressed views about the value of an interim report, does the Taoiseach agree Mr. Justice Barron has done all he can, and had reached this stage more than a year ago? I was informed of this by the members of the Justice for the Forgotten group whom I met last autumn. Mr. Justice Barron has identified the questions to which he requires responses from the British Government. If he does not get these responses by the end of this month will the Taoiseach ask him to publish an interim report to the House? The House will probably not return after the Easter break if the general election is to take place in May. It is necessary not only for justice to be done but to be seen to be done. A report, which may not be conclusive but which points to a conclusion, would be better than no report at all.
Perhaps the Deputy will make that judgment when the information is available. It will be a number of weeks before the data are available. It is not true to say he did nothing else all last year other than wait for the British. I did not wish to give that impression.
He has written up the rest of it.
He has. He has also painstakingly gone through Garda records and other data, which is the reason the other cases are easier for him to deal with. It all focuses on the operation behind the Dublin-Monaghan bombings, which is what people have been suspicious about for the past 28 years.
The Taoiseach now has a commitment from Mr. Justice Barron and Dr. Reid that the required information will be forthcoming within a matter of weeks. If it is not, what action will he take? If it is, will a decision be made at that stage to either go ahead with an interim report, if appropriate, or a final report before the general election?
That is totally in the hands of Mr. Justice Barron. General elections may come and go, but finding the truth in regard to an issue which is 28 years old will be more important for the families. Mr. Justice Barron or his team will not go away, therefore the date does not matter. What matters is that Mr. Justice Barron will get as much of the truth as possible. According to officials, it really depends on how much information can be obtained and how long it will take. If Mr. Justice Barron gets nothing, I am sure he will take one view and if he receives an enormous amount of information, he will have to sift through it. It is an impossible question to answer at this stage. There is no argument that everyone in this House wishes to see the report completed. It is in the hands of a good person and team and we must wait for it to be concluded. If for some reason the British authorities refuse to co-operate, that is a different matter. However, that is not the position as of now.
Newspaper reports on the meeting of 19 January between Mr. Justice Barron and Dr. Reid suggest that documents emanating from RUC files and the forensic services of Northern Ireland would be available. However, there was a doubt cast on whether documents from Whitehall or security sources in London would be available. Will the Taoiseach clarify the issue? Second, if Mr. Justice Barron is dissatisfied with progress in providing information or with the information provided, will the Taoiseach undertake to report to the House and make a full statement as soon as he receives the information?
The answer to the second question is yes, if Mr. Justice Barron reports to me. Last year we were advised to exert pressure to obtain the information. I will do the same now if that is his judgment. To reiterate what I said, Mr. Justice Barron has asked for all the information he needs in order to best identify the facts and circumstances. I have no information that any of the information will not be given other than that they will co-operate to the best of their ability. He had separate meetings with the Police Service of Northern Ireland. I believe an assistant commissioner dealt with him on the issue. It was very forthcoming in endeavouring to be helpful.