There are four proposals to be put to the House. The first is the proposal for dealing with No. 49a, 25 and a25a without debate. Is that agreed?
Order of Business.
Minister for Education and Science (Dr. Woods): The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 49a, Revised Estimates for Public Services, 2002 [Vote 44], back from Committee; No. 25, motion re presentation and circulation of Revised Estimates 2002; No. a25a, motion re referral to Select Committee of Espoo Convention; European Charter of Local Self-Government; and Kyoto Protocol on Climate Change; No. 50, Radiological Protection (Amendment) Bill, 1998 [Seanad] – Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; No. 1, Competition Bill, 2001 [Seanad] – Second Stage; No. 25a, motion re Code of Conduct, to be taken not later than 2.30 p.m. and the order shall not resume thereafter.
It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) Nos. 49a, 25, and a25a, shall be decided without debate and any division demanded on Nos. 49a and 25 shall be taken forthwith; (2) the Report and Final Stages of No. 50 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 12.30 p.m. by one question, which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in respect of amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Public Enterprise; (3) the proceedings on No. 25a shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 3.30 p.m. and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the speech of the Chairman of the Committee on Members' Interests, and the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party, shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (ii) the speech of each other Member called upon should not exceed ten minutes in each case; (iii) Members may share time; and (4) the Dáil on its rising today shall adjourn until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 7 March 2002.
It is not agreed. No. a25a is particularly timely given the amount of flooding of farmland and sandbagging of residential areas that is taking place as we speak. Would it be possible to amend this to take into account the particular interest of my party in having a role in this debate, given that it is not mentioned in the Order of Business as read out?
The proposal is referring No. a25a to a committee and the Green Party can attend the committee, participate and speak.
Is the proposal agreed to? Agreed. The second proposal is the proposal for dealing with No. 50, Radiological Protection (Amendment) Bill, 1998 – Report and Final Stages. Is that agreed? Agreed. Is the third proposal, the proposal for dealing with No. 25a, motion re code of conduct, agreed to? Agreed.
On a point of order, I inadvertantly misled the House yesterday and it is right that I correct the record. I said there were 74 committees in the Department of Health and Children. I have discovered there are actually 107.
Is the proposal for dealing with the motion re code of conduct agreed to? Agreed. Is the fourth proposal, the proposal for dealing with the adjournment of the Dáil, agreed to?
No, Sir. We are being asked in what is, effectively, an election campaign period to agree that the House should adjourn, effectively, for two weeks in which period the Order of Business and leaders' questions would be taken on one occasion. We are being asked to collude in the abandonment of an accountable democratic system. The Taoiseach and the Tánaiste will not come into the House today. The Tánaiste will be in Buswell's Hotel in a few minutes launching the report of the company law review committee, a matter so important that she cannot come into the House. The Taoiseach is in Roscommon. We are being asked to give our assent to the denigration of the role of the Opposition and are not agreeing to do so.
I am amazed at how Parliament has become a sham, and this proposal reinforces that impression. It is important that the Government realises this and brings forward the date of the general election before further discredit falls upon Parliament which is being sidelined. The Government appears to be more interested in canvassing in a long election campaign than doing the work of Parliament.
We will be sitting two days next week when the House will sit on Thursday and Friday. Furthermore, the sitting hours during March last year amounted to 84 hours and 30 minutes while this year they will amount to 85 hours. There is no reduction. I do not know how good the Opposition is on figures and statistics.
That is a piece of nonsense. The Minister is misleading the House.
Another own goal from Deputy Stagg.
We are also dealing with the referendum in that period—
It is no wonder the Minister gets on so well with the ASTI.
—and, of course, committees of the House will also be sitting. It would be wrong to give the impression that the House was not busy.
Question put: "That the Dáil on its rising today shall adjourn until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 7 March 2002."
Tá
|
Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John (Wexford).Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Coughlan, Mary.Daly, Brendan.Davern, Noel.Dempsey, Noel.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Foley, Denis.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy. |
Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John J.Moffatt, Thomas.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Malley, Desmond.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V. |
Níl
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Barnes, Monica.Barrett, Seán.Bell, Michael.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Bruton, Richard.Burke, Ulick.Clune, Deirdre.Connaughton, Paul.Cosgrave, Michael.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Creed, Michael.Currie, Austin.Deasy, Austin.Deenihan, Jimmy.Dukes, Alan.Enright, Thomas.Fitzgerald, Frances.Flanagan, Charles.Gilmore, Éamon.Hayes, Brian.Hayes, Tom.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Jim.Higgins, Joe.Hogan, Philip. |
Howlin, Brendan.Kenny, Enda.McDowell, Derek.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Jim.Mitchell, Olivia.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Owen, Nora.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Shatter, Alan.Shortall, Róisín.Spring, Dick.Stagg, Emmet.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack. |
Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Power; Níl, Deputies Bradford and Stagg.
Before I read this result I would like to clarify that the Chair is obliged to read the result as certified by the tellers. That position will pertain under the electronic voting system. In light of what happened last night, it is important for the Chair to make that point quite clear.
It must have been the Kilkenny boys.
Question declared carried.
I will now take leaders' questions.
We are in the dying days of the Government. The Government has been five years in office and the Minister for Education and Science has had a distinguished career in many ministries. It is a great pity he has presided for a number of years over absolute chaos in the secondary school sector. It is a great pity that so many students this morning, particularly leaving certificate students, do not know whether their schools will be open next Monday. The Minister has been at war with the ASTI for almost three years. It is clear this morning that the TUI will support the ASTI in its action and there is no confidence that the Minister's emergency plan will work.
Has he any appreciation at all of the trauma in families where leaving certificate students will be deprived of classes in the final few months before they do their leaving certificate examinations? Has he any appreciation of the stress of parents and students who are faced with this situation? Can he give students any hope that he will take action today to ensure full classes are available in every second level school on Monday and right through until the examinations are held?
I can understand why the Minister for Education and Science is so embarrassed by the debacle that is the reality in the education system and I support what has been said by Deputy Noonan with regard to the fear, concern and anxiety that many parents and sixth form students, who are studying for their leaving certificate, feel as we speak. Why is it that it is only sometime later today that the Minister will meet the three teachers' unions? Why has he not agreed to meet them sooner? Does he agree with the statement issued by the secretary general of the TUI earlier that a resolution of this dispute is available, which will require a great deal of negotiation and dialogue, and that at the end of the day some recognition of the role of teachers in the totality of the education system must be properly recognised? Why has the Minister left it until the eleventh hour? What assurances can he give us that the dispute can be resolved? What will he say to the teachers' unions later? What comfort, if any, can he give to the House and to all the parents, teachers and pupils who are dependent on him to bring about a successful resolution of this conflict?
I do not want to exacerbate the situation—
The Minister has done his best so far.
—by going into too much detail.
That is something at which the Minister is very bad.
Like the party leaders opposite, I am concerned principally about the welfare of the students and their position in terms of the disruption that is threatened. Leading up to the leaving certificate examinations last year, there was also a threat of disruption and my Department had made contingency plans well in advance. They were well discussed and prepared by the people involved and they were quite successful. In the current dispute, the ASTI has said it plans to withdraw teachers from substitution and supervision work and, in that event, it does not wish to disrupt or disturb the work of students or prevent others from doing the supervision and substitution work. The ASTI has declared that position repeatedly and openly and I believe that is its determined position.
In light of events, I have met parents' groups and unions and we have been in dialogue with the unions continuously, as the Deputies will appreciate. We are meeting the unions later this morning in an effort to bring about a situation in which it will be possible to suspend the dispute or adhere strictly to the rules that the ASTI has laid down for its members.
There is a particular difficulty in some schools where both the TUI and the ASTI are involved. That creates special difficulties for the TUI, which is anxious not to disrupt students. That union is still working on benchmarking within the PPF and is co-operating with the ICTU and it does not want to be drawn into the dispute but it is faced with a difficulty. We will certainly give the TUI and the schools involved every support and I trust that the ASTI will also recognise the difficulties in such situations in the spirit in which it is approaching this action.
I am just two years in the Department, not three.
It seems like a long time.
It sounds like five or six.
The dispute had gone some distance before I took up office and, unfortunately, the ASTI had decided not to participate in the PPF and to withdraw from the ICTU. That has created special difficulties for everyone in the negotiations because we are approaching June when the outcome of benchmarking will be made available. The PPF has provided a 22% increase in wages and on top of that I am quite confident there will be some improvement for teachers under benchmarking. I do not know what that will be but their position is being considered under the benchmarking process, which applies to the entire public service.
I appeal to everybody involved to give the process an opportunity to work. We have provided alternatives to the ASTI through the Labour Relations Commission and the Labour Court and, as the Deputies will be aware, the Labour Court made a very fair, reasonable, supportive and helpful recommendation which, unfortunately, was rejected. We will continue in a spirit of conciliation to attempt to find a resolution to the difficulties.
The Minster will be aware that appropriate supervision in schools is a condition of insurance and if appropriate supervision is not put in place a school's management has no choice but to close the school, otherwise it would be exposed to huge liabilities. Will the Minister outline his contingency plan to ensure appropriate supervision is put in place? What budget has he assigned to this task? Who has final responsibility for ensuring appropriate supervision in schools and the safety of children if the teachers refuse to do their traditional supervising roles?
We have been in contact with the insurers and there is no difficulty with insurance. We know exactly where we stand and that is part of the contingency plan. There will be no problem in relation to insurance cover. In relation to supervision and substitution, as the Deputies know, the joint managerial board was initially concerned that 2,000 people would have to be found. Since each school is managed by a board of management, within the community locally, parents and those who support a school there will be people willing to help overcome these difficulties especially given that the ASTI has said it is not prepared to interfere or intervene in that. Some 5,000 people have come forward to give their assistance in that regard and there is no problem in relation to budgets.
Another blank cheque.
Just like the Sinnott case.
We have discussed this with the representatives of the parents and with representatives of management and the funds are being sent to the individual schools. My Department has that very much under control. With all that is being done and good will on all sides, I hope we can avoid disruption in any schools.
Will there be insurance cover if there is no supervision?
I would have loved to be able to ask the Tánaiste why the Progressive Democrats have acquiesced in the referendum debate. If she had been here this morning, I would have been particularly anxious to ask her why the Progressive Democrats have abandoned their responsibility on this and why they have gone silent bearing in mind the exhortations they gave so eloquently back in 1992. I understand the Tánaiste is away on important business across the street in Buswells Hotel, launching a document that has to be launched between 10.30 and 11.30 today – the report of the company law review group.
The Deputy should ask a question.
This is leaders' questions addressed to leaders and unfortunately the leader to whom I want to speak is hiding in Buswells Hotel. I do not know if she can hear us over there. Since I have to exercise my right to ask questions, can I ask the Minister for Education and Science when he will honour the commitment given on 4 December at a committee and subsequently reiterated on 12 December in parliamentary questions that he will publish in full the list of the 850 schools that are at various stages awaiting an indication from the building unit in Tullamore as to the precise stage at which the building programme for each of their schools stands? He has been repeatedly asked this question. If their school is among the 850, I suspect the students in the Gallery would like to know whether that project is at stage one, two or three. Why does the Minister for Education and Science refuse to honour a commitment to publish the list in full and let everybody know where they are on it? What does he have to hide? Has the Minister for Finance taken all the money that the Minister for Education and Science says he has to the extent that nobody in Tullamore can give any indication about these projects? When will he honour the commitment he gave to publish the list of 850 schools indicating their position on the waiting list for sanction to proceed to the next stage in the necessary programme of capital building in the schools system?
Is it fair to assume that schools on this list are at different stages of planning and development? Last week in reply to several questions tabled by Deputies from all parts of the country, the same platitudinous anodyne reply was given to everybody as if all schools were at exactly the same stage of progress. What is the position? Does the Minister have a capital budget that he will spend this year? Is he saving the announcement until the election campaign proper commences? When can we expect a full statement from the Minister as to where different schools lie on the list of 850 that have construction and development programmes submitted to his Department?
I am surprised that the Deputies have raised this. When they were in office they only provided a quarter of the money we are providing. They have quite a cheek to talk along these lines.
The Minister should ignore the waffle and answer the question.
A significant volume of work is going on in my Department in modernisation and upgrading schools throughout the country.
Where is the list?
Deputy Noonan asked if I had any money at all. The answer is that we have €337 million this year for primary and secondary schools.
Is any of it uncommitted?
This is the biggest amount ever in the history of the State.
Where is the list?
First, we got extra funds in the Estimates above what the multi-annual budget would have been.
Who is "we"?
Second, following the budget process we got an extra €65 million which increased our funds further.
It is taxpayers' money.
Third, at the end of last year, I got the public private partnerships under way with five major secondary schools done through public private partnerships. The Deputies opposite should stop to think.
(Interruptions.)
Earlier today they had difficulty in adding the hours and came up with the wrong results.
What is he covering up?
Because of the extra funds I received this year, I had to ensure these were allocated throughout the country.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): Is the Minister being paid by the amount of words used?
My Department is currently finalising a list of the allocations.
They are being held back so that they can be announced at the election.
The students in the Gallery are going.
The Minister threw the teachers out and now the children are leaving.
If Deputies look at the Department of Education and Science website they will see the projects for under €500,000 at second level were announced last week. They have been cleared by my Department.
Has the Minister been to Bunny Carr recently?
I expect my Department to shortly confirm about 1,400 more projects. In the meantime the very large projects are coming through almost as a routine. The thing Deputies can be happiest about is that—
Nobody is happy out there.
—there is more money than when the Opposition parties were in power and we are doing much more work. There is no question of waiting for the election – I would not want to do that. I want them out as soon as possible.
I know the Minister is a survivor from the long march of 1977 and that he effortlessly transferred his loyalty from Mr. Jack Lynch to Mr. Charles Haughey. We have seen a display of the kind of waffle that enabled him to do that. Will the Minister please answer the question and stop denigrating the House with that outrageous display of waffle? If any of the children in the Gallery answered the question the way the Minister did—
Reference to people in the Gallery should not be made.
They have walked out in protest.
I was referring to the Press Gallery.
Reference should not be made to that either.
There will not be any teachers or students left when he is finished.
The outside world is not relevant.
If anyone in the House or anywhere else sitting examinations answered the question the way the Minister so contemptuously did – it was not funny and if he thinks it was, he should watch the Simpsons—
One would get more information from Bart Simpson.
It is not funny for a school, which depends on getting a necessary building, to get the type of contemptuous reply the Minister attempted, humorously like Jimmy O'Dea, to put on the record of the House.
Is this leaders' questions?
We are not having a debate. The Deputy should put his question.
The Minister waffled.
There is parity of esteem and time.
It is time the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy O'Dea, took over.
We have had some of the most long winded non-replies from the Minister for Education and Science.
I ask the Deputy to put his question.
I am attempting to ask a supplementary question based on his primary reply.
It is taking him five minutes to ask it.
Is the Minister in a rush?
The Deputy should proceed with his question.
Will the House look at who is here?
It is nice to see the Deputy here on a Thursday.
The Minister for failure. How many failures did he have, Deputy Gilmore? Was it 15 or 16?
Members should address the Chair. The Deputy should put his supplementary question to the Minister.
I am being harassed by the Minister for failure.
The Deputy provoked that.
Even Deputy Healy-Rae has abandoned the referendum. He has become a "No" voter.
Order, please. I ask Deputy Quinn to proceed. If he does not proceed, he will concede his right to do so.
I cannot proceed. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government is understandably throwing himself in front of democracy to try to protect the hapless Minister for Education and Science from answering the question.
The Deputy has now been speaking for seven minutes and he has not asked a question.
Is that allowed, a Cheann Comhairle?
The Minister spoke for five minutes and he did not answer many questions.
I ask Deputy Quinn to put his question.
Get out the crayons.
When will the Minister for Education and Science publish the list?
It should not have taken the Deputy seven minutes to ask that.
I have already published part of it, but there will be several lists. Deputies can look at the website.
It is like "The Sopranos".
(Interruptions.)
Order, please.
If the Deputy wants a short answer, it will be published as soon as it is ready. As regards questions about cases which are at the architectural planning stage, there are many projects at that stage. That is natural and will continue. Some are seeking a site, some are at stages one, two or three and others are at stages four and five.
The Roman Empire could have been built in the time.
There is nothing unusual about that. Unfortunately, when the rainbow Government was in office, the projects tended to stay for years at that stage.
The Minister should get off the stage.
Where is the list?
The difference now is that we have more money available. We have €337 million, which is more than four times what the rainbow Government provided. Deputy Quinn was Minister for Finance at the time.
It is no wonder the teachers are going on strike.
I have sympathy for Deputy Martin Brady.
Order, please.
I have explained the additional funds we got which will ensure that more projects move to the tender and building stages. Deputies must be getting frustrated.
We should move on to the next business.
I would be happy to take the next business, if the Deputy wishes.
It would be better than listening to the Minister.
As regards the personal remarks made, I served with the democratically elected leaders of this House and of our party. I served with Jack Lynch, Charlie Haughey, Deputy Albert Reynolds and the Taoiseach.
Is the Minister proud of that?
Is the Minister proud of Charlie Haughey?
I am proud of each one of them. Their value to the country will be seen in due course.
The fact the Minister is proud of Charlie Haughey tells us something about the Fianna Fáil Party.
I would expect that from the Deputy as it is his typical behaviour.
That concludes leaders' questions. We proceed with relevant questions on the Order of Business.
In light of the confusion and concern about the press conference held by the masters of the three maternity hospitals in Dublin yesterday, will the Government cancel the dangerous abortion referendum at this late stage?
That question is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
It is more than appropriate. It deals with forthcoming legislation.
Perhaps it is appropriate to another occasion, but not to the Order of Business.
Members of the House do not have the power to amend it.
The Deputy should ask a relevant question on promised legislation.
It is the most dangerous legislation ever introduced in the House.
The Minister for Education and Science indicated a few minutes ago that he would toss money around the country. He said the same last autumn after—
The Deputy should not enter into leaders' questions.
I am asking about legislation.
Has the Deputy a question on legislation?
As regards children with disabilities and their parents, the Minister said he had an open cheque book.
The Deputy must ask a question. She cannot continue making a statement.
We still have not seen the Disabilities Bill. Last autumn after the Sinnott case it was indicated that money would be spent hand over fist on children with disabilities. A group of parents had to protest outside the Dáil yesterday because their autistic children are not getting a proper education.
The Deputy is continuing to make a statement. Will she please ask a question or resume her seat?
When will the Minister publish the Bill and when will he provide funding for appropriate education for children with disabilities?
I notice that Opposition Deputies are fond of talking about an open cheque book, but it is often out of context.
Blank cheques.
I thank the Deputy.
I ask the Minister to deal with the question on promised legislation.
I am. That was for assessed needs and that has been happening since that time. The expenditure has increased from €7 million to €70 million.
Will the Minister please deal with the question on promised legislation?
If that is not a blank cheque book, I do not know where one would find one.
What about the legislation?
None of that happened when the Deputy's party was in Government. She should not forget that. It was increased from €7 million to €70 million per annum.
The Minister should answer the question on promised legislation.
The legislation will be published as early as possible in the session.
Is the Minister or those sitting beside him ashamed or concerned about the situation in which Ms Deirdre de Barra finds herself and which will be made worst by the passing of the referendum?
That has nothing to do with promised legislation. It is not in order to raise that matter on the Order of Business.
Will the Government introduce legislation?
The Deputy is out of order. She should find another way to raise such important matters.
I am sure others will join me in saying how sorry we were to hear about the death of Spike Milligan. If he had been here, he would have had brilliant material for the "Goon Show" during leaders' questions. When will the Coastal Zone Management Bill or the sandbag Bill as it is called in Ringsend and north County Dublin, be published? It has been promised for a long time. As a former Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources, I thought the Minister for Education and Science might have an interest in it.
That is up the Minister's alley.
Deputy Sargent should remember that Spike Milligan was also fond of Harry Secombe, who sang the odd song or two. The Bill will be introduced later this year.
The Minister is a Goon, but he is not a good one.
Is there a planned change in the electoral Acts that would allow the Government to issue material about elections or referenda?
There is no promised legislation.
I am asking if there is such legislation.
The Deputy should put down a parliamentary question.
There is no indication who is issuing the material to the voters. As I understand it, every other party in the State is obliged—
I ruled that matter out of order yesterday. It is also out of order today.
(Interruptions.)
(Dublin West): I am glad the Minister for Education and Science is present this morning because when the three masters appeared at the blackboard yesterday they obviously got their lines badly mixed up and had apparently not done their homework. Given that this referendum proposal is now so hopelessly compromised, will the Government withdraw it?
I doubt if that matter is in order, a Cheann Comhairle. However, it is unfair to say the masters were mixed up. In fact, they were clear in what they had to say.
(Interruptions.)
A question which is out of order should not be replied to. I have ruled that the question is out of order on the Order of Business.
I accept the Chair's ruling.
I note with interest that the Minister responded to a query on this matter from a male Member of the House and not to the female Member who first raised it.
Is there legislation in the pipeline aimed at controlling the activities of meat factories? We have all read newspaper reports about the huge profits these companies are making, despite the fact that—
The Deputy should put down a parliamentary question.
I am referring to promised legislation. I want to explain the position. As already stated, these companies are making huge profits despite the fact that the prices paid to producers have never been so low.
The Deputy cannot proceed with a statement.
The beef companies are making millions of euro.
The Deputy has asked a question about promised legislation and I call on the Minister to reply to it.
These companies are—
If the Deputy continues to be in disorder I will—
There are people—
The Deputy is in disorder and he should resume his seat.
—who are producing beef while the companies to which I refer are making millions upon millions in profits.
Will the Deputy please resume his seat? I call Deputy Howlin.