Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Mar 2002

Vol. 550 No. 2

Finance Bill, 2002: Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stages.

Debate resumed on amendment No. 11:
In page 13, between lines 31 and 32, to insert the following:
"6.–The Principal Act is hereby amended by the insertion of the following section after section 476:
‘476A.–Where an individual who subscribed, as part of the initial public offering, for shares in Eircom plc, has sustained a loss ("the loss") and such individual is not entitled under any other provision of this Act to relief for such loss than for the 2002 year of assessment the individual may in computing his or her liability to tax take a deduction equating to the amount of the loss at the standard rate.'.".
–(Deputy J. Mitchell).
Mr. J. Mitchell: I was about to finish proposing the amendment when the debate adjourned. I leave it to my colleague, Deputy McGrath, to elaborate on the reasons for moving the amendment.

This amendment relates to a proposal from my party that ordinary shareholders who took out investments in Eircom should be compensated for their loss. It was amazing to see what happened within media circles in relation to this proposal. It appears the media rushed out to pass judgment on this proposal and that they are happy to support big business, regular investors and the well off against the ordinary shareholder who took out shares in Eir com. Let us not forget that the Government spent in the order of £74 million encouraging people to buy shares in Eircom. Many felt they were being asked by the Government to invest in Eircom, it was sure and was money for old rope, as described by the Minister. They were encouraged to invest the few bob they may have had in savings, and about 500,000 did so.

Given that the major investors, the pension schemes and the big companies which invested in Eircom could write off their losses against gains on other shares, why should the ordinary Joe Soap who took his few bob out of the credit union to invest in Eircom not be compensated in some way? They should be entitled to write off their losses in the same way as other investors. It makes a good deal of sense but it ties in with the direction in which the Government is proceeding. Speaking on earlier amendments we said the Government had rewarded the better off. It is happy to reward the better off in terms of the investments in Eircom and to decry any proposals there might be to look after the ordinary person. I am happy with this proposal from our party and second the amendment.

I support the amendment. The level of resentment that immediately followed the announcement of the Fine Gael proposal was extraordinary. Instead people should have waited for the matter to go to the Finance Bill. One of the arguments put forward by the media and others and by some in Government was that if a person backed a horse and the horse lost, would they get the money back. I guarantee that if the Minister wrote to everybody and told them that Florida Pearl lost, they would be looking for their money back. That is exactly what happened here. The Minister wrote to everybody. The Government pocketed the money and now it is being asked to give back some of the money it got through hype and expenditure of £74 million. Furthermore, there has been a major cry about auction politics. I saw the Minister's name displayed on posters by one leading bank which read, "God bless Charlie McCreevy".

Many people say things like that to me.

Correct. I am glad the Minister has admitted that.

I will go to Longford tomorrow and I expect a great reception.

I hope the Minister gets a good reception. We were always known to be hospitable in Longford but we are also known to be practical.

This is Report Stage of the Finance Bill.

I put it to the Minister that the special savings fund is a major example of auction politics, if ever there was one. How dare the Government accuse a political party of auction politics when its actions are the hallmark of auction politics?

As I understand it, the intention of this amendment is to give income tax relief at a standard rate of tax to individuals for the amount of capital loss sustained in the disposal of Eircom shares, provided the individual had subscribed to those shares as part of the initial public offering. The text of the amendment also provides that the capital loss will not otherwise be capable of being relieved for tax purposes and that a loss relief should be given for the 2002 income tax year. It is not entirely clear, however, if it is intended to give income tax relief only from the capital loss incurred on the Valentia takeover or how individuals who incurred a loss on the disposal of Vodafone shares, the shares received by Eircom shareholders following the disposal of Eircell, will be dealt with under this amendment.

Apart from those who are actively and professionally engaged in trading or dealing in shares, gains or losses arising from share dealings come within the capital gains tax system rather than the income tax system. Our income tax and capital gains tax systems, which have co-existed since 1975, do not allow for the crossover of losses. It is not possible to offset capital loss against income for income tax purposes. As far as I am aware, that is the norm in most other jurisdictions. There is limited crossover between different categories of losses and income in our income tax system – for example, a landlord who incurs a loss on renting property can only set that loss against other rental income, he cannot set it sideways against any other income he may have. This amendment proposes to ignore such long-standing principles in the specific case of Eircom shareholders.

Apart from undermining fundamental principles in the tax code, a measure such as that proposed in this amendment would be unfairly discriminatory. Many individuals other than Eircom shareholders have suffered capital losses on shares in recent times and they do not necessarily have other present or future capital gains to absorb these losses. It may also be added that the amendment does not deal with Eircom shareholders who may be outside the tax net. While targeted at the specific case of Eircom shareholders, this measure would inevitably trigger calls for special treatment from other investors who find that the value of their investments have fallen. Such requests would be difficult to resist if a high profile precedent had been set. Deputies Jim Mitchell and McGrath have put down an amendment seeking special treatment for persons exercising share options, but whose shareholding suffers a drop in value on the market. If the case is once conceded, it will inexorably have to apply to all capital losses, with serious potential costs for the Exchequer.

It is undeniable that investing in shares is an undertaking that always carries a risk, as the price of shares can, and does, fall as well as rise. Compensating individuals for stock market losses, even in the single instance now being proposed, would entail taxpayers having to make good losses incurred as a result of stock market gambles by others. It is unrealistic to expect the generality of taxpayers to do that and it is certainly not equitable from the viewpoint of those who decided not to invest in the shares in question. Persons who decided to invest in Eircom shares did so for the same reason as any investor decides to buy shares, to make gains and earn dividends from their investment. Some Eircom shareholders sold their shares at a profit after the initial flotation while others now find they incurred losses. Apart from the considerations I have outlined, compensating the latter group by means of the proposal before the House would represent a commitment of Exchequer resources for which there are many more pressing and deserving demands. Finally, acceptance of this amendment would call into question the position of future flotations of State-owned companies. This could not be a one-off arrangement as a precedent for Eircom shareholders would inevitably compromise future Governments in relation to future State flotations.

On Committee Stage, Deputy McGrath and others referred to the media circus when Fine Gael first outlined this proposal. I sympathise with the Deputy in relation to media circuses regarding individual proposals as I have been the subject of many media circuses as regards taxation matters. A number of my proposals during the past five years led to a circus as people who could not have been affected by any of my proposals were invited on radio shows to comment. I have a certain amount of sympathy for Deputy McGrath in that regard, but that is as far as it extends.

There are a number of principles at stake, but the main one relates to the idea that capital losses can be offset against income, which involves switching from the capital gains tax code to the income tax code. Capital gains were not taxable in this country before the enactment of the Capital Gains Tax Act, 1975, and high income earners could offset all their income tax by making capital gains, paying no tax on that and having little reckonable income from employment. The Fine Gael and Labour coalition Government of the time deemed the situation to be inequitable and introduced a variety of taxes, including capital acquisitions tax, which replaced the State duty, and capital gains and wealth taxes, which were the first taxes of their type in this country. It also started the process of introducing taxes on farmers.

The principle of capital gains tax is that if one makes a capital gain, one has to pay a certain amount of tax. The rates and thresholds have changed over the years, but the principle has been retained. It has not been established in this country, however, that one can offset capital losses against one's income which is subject to income tax. Deputy Jim Mitchell clearly said that he wants to offset capital against income for income tax purposes, but the logic of that is that gains made on capital should be taxed as income tax and, therefore, one should abandon the capital gains tax code. There are some jurisdictions, including the United Kingdom, where that is the case to a limited extent. Although I was not a Member of the House at the time, I recall from the far-flung corners of my memory that it was considered here some years ago when White Papers on capital gains tax and wealth tax were published. I am sure Richie Ryan considered the proposal when he was Minister for Finance, and I may ask one of my advisers who I am sure can remember that time.

It is a very appealing notion.

It can be added to a small income in the United Kingdom to be taxed at the marginal rate and I think a similar system is operated in Finland. We decided to introduce a separate code, with capital gains rates and rules relating to capital losses, for capital gains tax. Matters such as betting winnings are excluded from capital gains tax, as I am sure Deputies Browne, McGrath and Belton are aware.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Deputies McGrath and Belton may be gamblers, but I am not.

We know about betting losses.

The logic is that the Revenue Commissioners would not bother taxing gains as the losses people could claim would be much higher than the gains.

The Minister taxes bets.

We would have a permanent repayment situation. Many things are exempt from capital gains tax, such as a gain on a principal private dwelling house under the Capital Gains Tax Act, 1975. I have changed fundamentally the rates of capital gains tax, but the ultimate logic of the Fine Gael proposal is that we abandon the capital gains tax code. If we allow people to offset losses against income for income tax purposes, the logic is that one adds the income from capital gains to one's income from employment and the total is taxed at one's marginal rate of tax. Deputy McDowell has not said it in public or in the House, but he may favour that system. To be fair, I admit that it applies in other countries.

Deputies have also asked why businesses are allowed relief in this regard, but they are not. I made some concessions regarding corporation tax losses on Committee Stage last week. The strict rule up to now was that a company making a loss of 10%, for example, was not allowed to use those losses against the profits of other companies in the group that pay corporation tax at higher rates. We dealt with this matter on Committee Stage, when I allowed Opposition Deputies a portion of a concession in the interest of equity, especially given that corporation tax rates have come down. Losses would be locked up otherwise. That is part of the corporation tax code.

As I pointed out, even in the income tax code one is not allowed to offset, for example, rental losses which are taxed under Schedule D case 5 against Schedule D case 1 or 2 income which is from a business or Schedule E rating up to PAYE. One is not allowed to bring losses across in that way even if it involves rental income which is taxed under Schedule D under what is called case 5 income. Those rules are fairly well established.

Pension funds are exempt from capital gains tax and there is a gross roll-up system. It is the business of banks and other institutions to invest in shares. If I make a loss by giving Deputy McDowell a loan of £1,000, I am not allowed to write that off against my income tax bill as a tax credit, an allowance or a deduction when computing my liability. However, a bank which offered the Deputy a loan which he did not repay would be allowed to offset that loss. These are fairly simple and elementary principles which form the basis of both codes.

I can see the reasons for their so doing, but if the principle proposed by the Deputies were ever established whereby one could move one from the other, the potential loss to the Exchequer would be enormous. I also pointed out that one could not confine this proposal to this flotation. This is the last Finance Bill of this Administration and there are certain impressions which have entered folklore regarding the Eircom flotation which I wish to correct. If we were to accept this principle, the future flotation of companies would automatically suggest a one-way bet. Who would not bet on such a flotation? One would be suggesting that people take the shares at any price because if they go up in value they will make a gain and if they do down the Government will compensate them. With respect to the Deputies, this proposal has not been thought out. If this is a vote buying exercise, it is not particularly astute. I will consult Deputy Belton when I go to Longford tomorrow. I travelled around the country a fair amount in the past six months.

Will the Minister shout the prices like a bookie next time?

Not one person in a thousand has complained about getting their money back for their Eircom shares. I have occasionally heard people state that they lost some money, but most—

The people the Minister meets have paid a lot of money to get there, so they are already well off.

I am not noted for canvassing, but in the past year and a half I visited many people in Kildare with my running mate. No one complained about this issue, but there was the odd reference to the loss of a few quid.

Certain things amused me at the time of the Eircom flotation. Deputy Mitchell stated on many occasions that the Government went against the advice of the Eircom board. Implicit in that supposition is that, in future, the board of the semi-State company, and not the shareholder, should decide the price. If Deputy Mitchell was Minister he would never agree to that position or his Cabinet colleagues would never allow him to do so. I will give the Deputy many reasons he should not do so.

The Government is the shareholder and the Minister for Finance holds the shares in most State companies. In the case of the Eircom flotation most of the shares were nominally held by the Minister for Public Enterprise and the Minister for Finance held a small shareholding.

When does the shareholder ever decide the price? That is ludicrous.

Even if one goes back to the Greencore and Irish Life flotations, the shareholder, namely, the Government, in the person of the Minister for Finance, called the final shots in the matter because the Government represents all the people.

About 550,000 people applied for Eircom shares. The population of Ireland is about 3.78 million. I remember it being said at the time that the price was set high. I was criticised immediately after the flotation on the basis that the price was set too low. I would not like to embarrass Deputies opposite by citing their colleagues who suggested that the price of the shares had been set too low because for a long time after the flotation the price was well above the issue price.

The initial criticism was that we had given away the State silver too cheaply. The Government engaged two advisers who were paid substantial fees. The Eircom board also had advisers and about £80 million to £90 million was paid in fees for the successful flotation. That was a large amount of money. One of the advisers suggested a certain issue price and the other suggested a higher price. The figure was more or less set between these two suggested prices. That was the correct figure because for a long time after the flotation, the price was well above the flotation price.

Things happened in the telecoms industry all over Europe which depressed the price of telecoms and technology stocks. The Deutsche Telekom share price collapsed by a far greater percentage than the Eircom price. The Eircom board took one position, but it did not decide the matter. The shareholder, namely, the Government decided the issue for all the people.

I represented the 3.2 million who did not have the wherewithal to bid for Eircom shares and who did not have the resources to go to their bank manager or other financial institution to take out a loan to buy the shares. I held out for the best price. For the best part of a year when the Eircom share price was well above the issue price, I read many articles in newspapers which complimented the Government, but which said it should have held out for a higher price. However, when the price went the other way I began to read articles which suggested that this was the fault of the Minister for Finance because he held out for the higher price. I make no secret of the fact that I held out for a higher price and I got a good price. I come from a part of the country where one gets the best price for one's bullock on the day.

The Minister had his foot on the scales.

We got the best price on that day and I am glad of it. I have invested the money wisely in the national pensions reserve fund. I could not possibly surmise how it got into the newspapers, but after the price went the other way it was the Minister for Finance's fault as he held out for that price. However, when the price was going up I was never mentioned in the newspapers. I am not blaming the Opposition for that fact. I did not hear any complaints at that time and I have not heard any since.

Since 1997 I have heard in this House comments about the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, who has an ideology. It was suggested that I am the only member of the Government with an ideology and that I wish to pursue policy on this basis. I was criticised inside and outside the House for that. However, I was amazed by the fact that, as regards the Eircom flotation, Members opposite advised everyone to become little capitalists. People bought Eircom shares to unashamedly make money with which I have no problem. People wanted income and more power to them. However, it was a bit rich that people criticised capitalists on this side of the House for suggesting that everyone should get their shares and that is what they did. However, 3.2 million people did not do so.

A note was written in 2000 about the pricing of shares which suggested that the Government could have floated the company at a higher price, but chose not to do so. It also stated that one of the giant global co-ordinators for the offer, Merrill Lynch, advised a flotation price of £3.27, but that the Government set the price at £3.07. The other advisers were AIB Capital Markets whose figure was somewhat lower. In the immediate aftermath of flotation, the shares rose in price by 20%. The shares traded well above flotation price for most of the time since flotation. In the first nine months since the flotation, from July 1999 until April 2000, the shares traded at or above the flotation price in all but 12 of the 294 trading days. The average price at that time was £3.37, a premium of 10% on the flotation price. The price on the day was well offered and people had the best part of a year to get out with a profit. The markets have since tumbled in telecom stocks but I cannot be expected to compensate people for going in this direction. If we were to establish the principle that Deputies McGrath and Mitchell want to put into the capital gains tax code, it would be a bad day's work.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): I rise in trepidation because I am nearly as mixed up now as the voters in the referendum after that long speech. I did my best to get a Sunday newspaper to publish a masterpiece I wrote explaining why some of its financial experts were so wrong.

The Deputy should have written in verse.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): I should have but I was obviously wasting my sweetness on the desert air.

The Minister and Deputy Belton mentioned backing horses, the mantra of Fianna Fáil hacks all over the country at the time. The Minister, a man with a great interest in racing, reduced betting tax. It cost £34 million in one year and £44 million in the next. The Minister said there were 3.2 million people who did not invest in Eircom shares. How many non betting people are there in the country?

There are very few in Kildare.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): What do people who do not bet gain from the Minister's reduction of betting tax? They had to pay extra tax to make up for it.

The bookies gained.

The Exchequer gained from an increased yield when the tax was reduced.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): People who do not bet gained nothing from the reduction in tax but that is the argument the Minister is using. The Minister mentioned the loss which would accrue to the Exchequer if investors were compensated. What is the difference between them and a millionaire with many shares who had to pay €2,000 in capital gains tax to the Government but, because he had losses, wrote it off? If the Government loses €2,000 with the millionaire, how is it just that a poor devil who owned only a few shares would cost the State money? Why is this argument used? Why does giving a break of €1,000 to a poor man wreck the economy whereas rich people get it all the time? That is the practice. I did my best to explain that in my statement to the correspondent we all know in this House, an expert on finance who ridiculed the idea. No doubt he uses the existing system. Money can be taken from the Exchequer. How many non betting people were sacrificed by the Minister's reduction in betting tax and what is the difference between a rich man getting €1,000 from the Exchequer and a poor man getting the same break?

It is interesting that in the Minister's longwinded and confused reply—

It was not confused, the amendments are confused.

—he never once explained how he can justify giving back €140 million to corporate and rich investors in Eircom for their losses, because they are getting 20% back in capital gains, when he cannot extend the same 20% to people who are PAYE workers. He made no attempt to address that gross injustice.

When I moved the amendment, I pointed out that those who make their living from capital gains pay tax at 20% on all their income. Those unfortunate enough to be PAYE workers pay 20% on the first tranche of their income in addition to the health levy, plus a PRSI contribution and, if they enter the next band, they pay 42% income tax. It is already the case that those who live off capital gains are paying 30% less tax at least than PAYE workers. How in fairness can the Minister have the gall to refuse to give the man in the street the same rebate that is already given to the rich? The Minister did not attempt to answer that question.

He talked a lot of guff about this, that and the other. We know there would be wider implications for capital gains, and taxes generally, if this were to become the usual practice but we have made it clear that we are contemplating a once-off arrangement because of the particular role of the Government in this case. The Minister got his highest price but he did so by not revealing the fact that the price was hyped by the shareholder – the Government – while it spent £74 million hyping the flotation, even writing to every home in the country.

I was surprised to hear the Minister say that in all flotations the shareholder decides the price. He must be living in cloud cuckoo land. I do not know of any case where the shareholder has settled the price. If that were the case, the shareholder would always be looking for the highest price. It is normally settled by a board of directors, having taken advice, and the directors have to reveal all relevant facts or they find themselves in breach of the Companies Acts. The Government hyped the price secretly and withheld this fundamental information from the man in the street with no experience in investment. That is why in this exceptional case, we should allow the claw-back on a once-off basis.

We also propose, although not in this amendment, to introduce legislation that would govern the future flotations of State companies and set out clearly the ethics and respective roles of the different players in such a flotation to restore confidence in future offers. If that is not done, fewer people than invested in Eircom will be ready to invest in the next State flotation, a strong argument for doing what we propose.

It is intolerable that we should not give benefits and conditions to those who are much less well off. It is a simple case of social justice and fairness and of ensuring confidence in future flotations. The Minister addressed none of these issues in his lengthy and garbled reply.

The Minister made several assertions that will not bear scrutiny. He spoke of the precedent this may create. It is not that long ago when a Fianna Fáil Minister for Finance inserted in a Finance Bill a notorious provision the purpose of which was to exempt one person, who happened to be a Fianna Fáil supporter, from paying approximately £50 million in tax. The Minister should not lecture us on creating precedents.

Will the Deputy explain that provision?

The Minister should ask the Taoiseach.

What was the provision?

The Minister knows it. If this amendment creates a precedent it will benefit the wider public and will not create special favours for our political supporters. It will cost, at a maximum, €90 million and, in reality, it will cost less because included in that estimate is cover for all non-institutional and non-corporate investors. However, some wealthy investors, who are experienced in investment, will already have received their rebate from their other capital gains.

When moving the amendment I referred to those pensioners who borrowed to secure a nest egg to cover them for their later years or to cover the cost of their funerals. Having heard the urging and hype of the Government, many borrowed money from the credit union, yet under present arrangements they will not get the same concessions as multi-millionaires. The Minister also distorted the position when he said the provision would mean every time people make future investments they would expect the Government to make good their losses. However, the amendment merely provides that they will receive a tax refund of 20%, which means they will still carry a loss of 80%. The Minister seeks to create the impression we are proposing to return the full amount of losses to those gullible enough to listen to him and the Minster for Public Enterprise.

My party is committed to this provision. Unlike the Government, we are committed to the precepts of social justice. However unpopular the cause, if social justice requires action we will fearlessly stand over it because we are not in politics merely to follow but to lead and, above all, to achieve social justice. Earlier in this debate and on Second and Committee Stages, speaker after speaker asked how, after seven years of incredible economic growth, so many of the poor and less well off have been left with their problems unaddressed. Why are widows and those living alone on sickness benefits living on approximately £90 per week? They cannot afford to buy a pint or go to the hairdresser. Why are 20% of primary school students leaving primary school with learning difficulties – when in three quarters of cases they need not – because of the lack of resources provided to the schools? Why are children waiting ten years for orthodontic treatment and why are some waiting so long they never get it? Why are the disabled confined to their homes because the Government would not provide €36 million requested by all the handicapped societies? The consequences for these people is enormous.

These burning issues of social justice have been ignored by the Government. Other Governments at least had the excuse that the resources were not available but this Government has no such excuse. It has squandered the money. The Government is spending £13 billion more than its predecessor when it left office, yet there is a litany of social injustice. That issue will face the people in the forthcoming general election and Fine Gael will be to the fore in pressing cases of social injustice. We will make no apologies for it.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 12:

In page 14, after line 50, to insert the following:

"(7C) Where payment of a service charge is made on or before a date to be nominated by the service provider (‘the due date') the amount of the charge shall be reduced by a proportion equivalent to the standard rate of income tax.".

We did not reach a similar amendment on Committee Stage. My party is not in favour of service charges and in my experience in Dublin Corporation they have proven to be a bad idea. Unfortunately, in the corporation we matched the introduction of the charge with an attempt to encourage people to separate and recycle waste. This has not encouraged them to act in the way we hoped.

The purpose of the amendment is to allow income tax relief to be given at source. The Minister introduced a system last year to provide relief at source in relation to VHI contributions and mortgage interest payments. In this instance the relief should be provided at source and the charge should be reduced by the standard income tax rate of 20%.

Will the Minister indicate the numbers who have applied for income tax relief on this charge? It would not surprise me if it was fewer than those entitled to apply. Many people are probably not aware that if they pay their service charges on time they are entitled to income relief on them.

Will the Minister also address the situation that applies in Fingal County Council, where a tagging system is operated that appears to be attracting the attention of the courts? Will he indicate how the already existing tax relief operates in the case of a county council, such as Fingal, which charges on a tagging and on a per bag basis?

The amendment concerns section 6 and proposes that where service charges are paid by the due date the amount of the charge should be reduced by a proportion amount equivalent to the standard rate of income tax. Section 6 amends section 477 of the Taxes Consolidation Act, which already provides a standard rate relief for the payment of service charges. It is not clear what is intended by the Deputy's proposal. If it is to provide an incentive to pay the service charge by the due date to obtain tax relief, this is already covered by existing legislation in so far as charges are payable to local authorities. In those circumstances no relief is due unless the payment is made in full and on time with reference to such date or dates as the local authority decides. A similar provision is not included where the charges are paid to private contractors as it is felt that they would be in a better position than local authorities to ensure prompt payment.

If on the other hand a proposal concerns the application of a tax relief at source – TRS, as the Deputy referred to it – this immediate relief would become a refundable tax credit. In other words, the relief would apply regardless of whether the individual had a tax liability. Such a proposal would be costly to the Exchequer and consequently I must oppose the amendment.

About 28,000 taxpayers claim this relief and the cost of allowing tax relief at source for this group is estimated at €730,000. However, this cost is not confined to new claimants in new charge areas, which is most of Dublin – we in Kildare have been ahead of the posse for some time. There was a major debate on this in Kildare and one of Deputy McDowell's colleague was involved in it – it was of major assistance to his winning a Dáil seat. The local authority notifies the Revenue automatically – some people might match up there as claiming it – but I accept Deputy McDowell's point that many people are not aware of it. Local authority charges will be higher because of the increase due to the cost of disposing of waste by contractors. That increase has to be passed back down the line so there will be more advocating of this relief. The proposal of tax relief at source would be more costly. This is a tax break at the standard rate and will be widely used in the future.

Regarding the tagging system, the maximum charge allowable there is €195 at the standard rate.

I see no reason it should cost huge sums of money if, instead of people having to claim the relief, they are given the relief at source. It happens in other areas. In my constituency, in an area like Cabra, 84% of people have not paid this money. That is what the city manager told the city council last week. It is always a problem. Many people will pay if everyone pays, just as many people will not pay if many others are not doing so either. I have argued for years about these charges. In the Dublin West by-election people in huge houses in Castleknock, with a BMW and Mercedes in the drive, said they would vote for the Socialist Party candidate, Deputy Joe Higgins, on the basis that they were being asked for £80 a year in charges.

We had this in Kildare also.

We have to understand that this issue has an effect on some people. They have an incredible resistance to paying a local authority charge. I personally recommended that our Dublin councillors should not vote for it on the basis that if one introduced it the way it was proposed there would be huge resistance, which is exactly what has happened not just in Cabra, though I am using that as an example.

Why can we not allow these charges to be collected as part of the ESB bill, for instance? It would greatly reduce administrative costs, it would make sure there is 100% payment, the reduced administration costs could possibly be passed on in savings to the taxpayer and much of the political downside would be avoided. Collecting charges in this way is giving a present to independent candidates who will get on the bandwagon, regardless of the totality of the effect across the country.

It may not be the only way to proceed. The charge could be collected with the telephone bill, but everyone has electricity whereas not everyone has a telephone. Has this method ever been considered? People will say it cannot be done as there are private companies involved but it could be done if there was a will to do so. It is more efficient and fairer, and more revenue would be collected. Charges might be reduced also.

The purpose of the amendment is basically to abate the cost, as the Minister said, and to give people a tax relief to which they are already entitled. Regarding the figure of 28,000, I do not know the total number of households or people who have to pay the charge and who would be entitled to claim the relief but it must surely be a multiple of 28,000. There are quite a few people who would be entitled to claim income tax relief on the payment on time of service charges but who are not getting that. There is no uniformity about waiver schemes throughout the country but in Dublin if one is not in the tax net one is not paying the charge in the first place and therefore there is no question of a refundable credit in the sense of someone getting money when they have not paid the charge. That does not arise in the Dublin system. This amendment recommends an administrative system which gives tax relief at source, to which people are entitled in any event.

We had a similar experience in Kildare, which was the first area to make a big issue of this in the mid-1980s, and Deputy McDowell's colleague was involved. As Deputy Mitchell said about his area, the richest people in Kildare, who had two or three cars outside their homes, were turning up to protest at meetings, and I could not understand that. I wondered how we would ever bring back some form of local taxation, having effectively abolished rates on private houses in 1977. I could not understand the block people had against this, though they may have thought they paid enough in their income tax each week and that this was an extra taxation. However, if that was the reason then, it is hardly the reason now. Whatever one thinks of the methods by which I have dealt with this, most people would accept that the tax burden today is much lower than it was in those years. That excuse is no longer there.

I despair of the possibility of ever having a system of local taxation. Deputy Mitchell suggested a method for the local authorities to collect this and I can see no reason it cannot be done administratively. A little ingenuity would help to get it done. I do not know if local authorities have ever considered this but administratively it would not be impossible to use that system.

It may need statutory intervention.

I have not researched it but it would be an innovative way of dealing with this. There is tremendous resistance to the principle of having people pay local charges for local services. The problem with north Kildare, of course, was that Dublin had none of these charges. They were looking across the Liffey bridge in Leixlip and saying there are no charges on that side, and that created its own difficulties. However, we have become used to the principle over the years and Kildare and other counties run a waiver system.

Deputy McDowell's amendment suggested a refundable tax credit. The tax relief at source system that I introduced for medical insurance and mortgage interest came in on 1 April last year for medical insurance – the mortgage interest measure came into force this year – and was intended to free up resources and make the system more simple to operate. It is working effectively and it has taken all the rubbish off the tax free allowance certificates or tax credit system – I intend to do more in that regard in future. Deputies can be sure that there was an estimate of the cost of doing this for everybody. However, one would take it that most people with medical insurance would be paying income tax, as would be the case for most people with mortgage interest relief. It would effectively be a refundable tax credit. I would not like to rule this out forever and a day, but I would hope to establish the principle that we would pay for local services – water, refuse or whatever – as we will not have effective local government unless local authority members have powers and are prepared to impose some form of local taxation. All parties have funked this issue over the last 25 years and I am not sure it will make its way onto the table in the next 25 years either.

There is not much point in going any further with this. The amendment simply seeks to provide "at source" tax relief which is already available to people but is not being taken up by most of those entitled to it. What I propose is not innovative but simply a tidying up of the system. The arguments that applied last year or the year before in relation to medical insurance and mortgage interest relief would apply equally in this case. What I propose will happen inevitably.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 13 not moved.

Amendments Nos. 14 and 15 are related and will be discussed together by agreement.

I move amendment No. 14:

In page 21, between lines 18 and 19, to insert the following:

"(11) Where such sportspersons as may be specified by the Minister in regulations incurs expenses arising directly or indirectly out of playing or training for sport the amount of such expenses shall not be liable to taxation provided that no more than €5,000 expenses shall be allowable in any year of assessment and provided also that it shall be assumed subject to such regulations as may be made by the Minister that a minimum of €2,000 is incurred.".

This amendment relates to section 12 of the Bill, the relief being given to certain sportspeople. When I first heard of this relief my instinct was to oppose it. I did not fully understand what the relief was intended to achieve. Having heard the Minister's explanation on Committee Stage I am still not entirely sure what exactly it is intended to achieve. It does not provide an incentive to people who would not otherwise do so to take up sport or to earn money from sport nor will it successfully encourage people who play sport elsewhere to play sport here. It will not encourage people in the same way as the artists' relief did in the 1960s and since. People will not be encouraged to relocate from other tax jurisdictions. The prospect of a lump sum payment ten years down the road, or further, is not likely to have that sort of incentive effect.

It is in effect a "thank you". It is the Exchequer saying thanks to certain sportspeople defined in the Bill for what they have done and it will give now give them back, at the end of their careers, a certain amount of the tax they have paid. The difficulty is that it only applies to certain sportspeople. Evidently if a sportsperson is not paying tax or only paying a little tax during his or her career, he or she will not get much back. Even semi-professionals such as soccer players will not benefit hugely because they do not pay much tax on their sporting income. Ten years of tax reduced by 40% for the average League of Ireland player will not make him rich and will not benefit many of them at all.

The greatest outcry in the face of the proposal has been from GAA players. That is understandable because GAA is the most popular spectator and participative sport in the country. Many of those in the House have played GAA sport and most of us watch matches from time to time. If this proposal is merely a "thank you" to people who have played, given pleasure to the public and contributed to the community over the years then it should be extended to those who have played or been involved in administration in the GAA. My amendment is not scientifically worked out but is an attempt to indicate a way in which the role of GAA players could be acknowledged.

On Committee Stage the Minister said something I did not have the opportunity to take him up on at the time. I understood him to say that expenses incurred in playing sport could be written off against normal income tax liability.

I do not think I ever said that.

That is what I understood the Minister to say. If it is what he said, it does not seem right but perhaps he did not say that.

It is not right.

Perhaps the Minister will clarify the position.

I said that expenses for which people are reimbursed are not taxable subject to certain limitations or proposals on expense levels by the Revenue Commissioners.

I suggest that we allow people to claim expenses for which they are not reimbursed up to €5,000. In any given year, they should be allowed to write that off against their taxable income. I suggest that as a matter of presumption.

As a reasonably logical person the Deputy will understand that unreimbursed expenses are income. Expenses relate to expenses incurred and anything over and above that is profit which has always been taxable as it is like paying income to a person.

I am not quite sure I understand what the Minister is saying. Perhaps he will explain at greater length in his reply. I suggest we should presume that people incur expenses of up to €2,000 per year. That would be a reasonable presumption. It is not reasonable to ask that an inter-county GAA player should keep accounts of a taxi here or a bus ride there, or income foregone or work overtime that could not be availed of because of playing football or whatever. I accept that if we allow that at 20%, we are only talking about €400 a year and that will not make anybody rich. This would merely be a gesture from the Exchequer acknowledging the role these people play in our sporting life.

In summary, the purpose of the amendment is to acknowledge this is a major issue and serious hurt has been caused to people who play an important part in our sporting life. It is also to indicate the view on this side of the House that this issue needs to be addressed. I would prefer that this provision had never seen the light of day, but as it is there we need to try and deal with it in an equitable way to provide fair play to all concerned.

Amendment No. 15 arises from the proposal by the Minister to give back to the super rich sportspersons of this country 40% of the tax they may have paid over a certain period. The Minister has targeted this relief at well paid sportspersons who have been tax-resident in the State. When they retire from their chosen sport, they will get back a lump sum. The Minister estimates the cost of the measure will be about €5 million per annum.

The proposal has created much discussion and comment and has created anger, particularly in the GAA. The Minister's comments on Committee Stage, when discussing the possibility of giving tax relief to GAA players, were read and commented on. There was a lot of disappointment with the direction of his comments about the GAA. Some comments were uncalled for and people were disappointed that he referred to the participants in our games, our heritage and culture, in this way.

The amendment proposed by Deputy Mitchell and myself suggests that, as a small recognition to GAA players who entertain thousands of people on a weekly basis, we should give them some gesture of goodwill in the form of a tax credit. Whoever wrote about our suggestion in the press did not properly understand what tax credits are – the Minister must not be doing his job properly – because they were quoted as tax allowances.

We suggest that a tax credit of €2,000 would go to the elite sportspeople who play our national games. In effect, that would reduce their tax bill by almost €40 per week. We justify this proposal on the basis of the tremendous involvement of the GAA in every parish in the country. The GAA has not just kept people occupied, off the streets and interested in sport but has positively encouraged their involvement in exercise and team games. It is a very important part of life. We have estimated that the total cost of the proposed package would be about €3 million. That is much less than what the Minister is proposing to give to the super-rich sportsmen of this country. It would be a small step in the right direction if the Minister approved this tonight and allowed it to be included in the Finance Bill. I am not certain that the actual wording of the amendment is correct but I hope we can obtain approval for the whole idea.

It will be interesting to see how the Taoiseach reacts to this amendment. He loves to go down to Croke Park on a Sunday.

He lost one amendment already today.

He obviously enjoys sport. However, his spin doctors are always telling us what he is doing for the GAA and what he wants to do for it. In recent days he met the Gaelic Players Association and gave them the nod and the wink. He is looking after them and he will do a good job. Tonight he has his chance to do this. He will be able to tell the GAA whether he intends to support it. Here is an amendment that will show his real worth. Does he feel that senior county players up and down the country—

(Carlow-Kilkenny): The Lilywhites.

—are entitled to some recognition for their commitment to and involvement with the GAA? Is he prepared to put his money – or the taxpayers' money – where his mouth is? He can say all he likes about supporting it, but he will still go down to Croke Park, be ushered in and get the best seats, which is only fair. The Taoiseach should get the best seats. Here is his chance to stand up and be counted. Will he go along with an amendment giving those players a few quid in their pockets, a small recognition of their commitment, or will he chicken out? I am looking forward to hearing what the Minister has to say because I am sure he has discussed this issue with the Taoiseach. I am sure they have discussed what they would do tonight about this amendment from the Fine Gael crowd.

Actually, I have not.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Not even a note?

Not even a note.

We will all be disappointed then. The Minister will deliver a statement but we will have to bring the Taoiseach in to see what he says.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): He will support it.

He will support it out of the side of his mouth at least.

Dessie Farrell is supporting it.

The amendment is quite simple in its intent. It will give to senior footballers and hurlers a tax credit of €2,000 per annum. The details will be worked out afterwards. The total cost will be €3 million. Is it not reasonable to give a small amount to the 1,500 players who turn out almost on a weekly basis to represent their counties rather than giving €5 million towards cash payments for super-elite sportspersons who are retiring from their chosen professions? Perhaps most of them will be in County Kildare.

I support my colleague, Deputy McGrath. My background is that I used to be one of those players of which he spoke. For eight or ten years I travelled from the corner of the northern end of my county to the centre of the county to train, two or three nights a week.

They were no good.

We were a lot better than the Louth fellows. They are still trying to get past Oriel Park. They thought they were playing with the football in the air but they discovered that it was actually on the ground.

It is important to recognise what the Minister has done over the past few weeks for our elite sportspeople. I want to be the first or second, or the 101st to take my hat off to them. They have all done themselves proud and done Ireland proud. We have benefited substantially from this in terms of tourism. However, we must accept that a number of them have made a substantial income and, to be fair, many of them would not know the difference if the Minister gave them the allowance for the past ten years. We are proposing a measure which is extremely important for the welfare of an organisation and the people who participate in it. It recognises the sacrifice they make. Kerry people may talk about the effort they make to get from one side of the county to the other to train. The Cavan team trains in Navan. Half of them are employed in Dublin and come down to Navan, which takes two hours. Thanks to the Minister, Deputy O'Rourke, and others we have no train.

It only takes two hours from Dublin?

Yes. It used to be an hour. The other part of the Cavan team comes from Cavan to Navan and it takes them an hour less. Players from all the different counties work in different parts of the country. They take time off from work and go down to train on Tuesdays and Saturdays or Mondays and Thursdays and Saturday mornings, and they play most weekends. The reorganisation of the league structure means that they play every weekend from two weekends ago until 31 March. The Minister has stated that he has not talked to the Taoiseach about this, but has the Taoiseach an opinion on the matter? What did he discuss with the members of the GPA, if not something along these lines? I ask the Minister to accept this proposal and allow us to work out the details. Nobody in this House should be able to say that working GAA players are not entitled to the €40 per week in tax credits that would be granted as a result of this proposal. They provide entertainment week in, week out all during the summer from one end of the day to the other.

I was on the Government backbenches many years ago and Deputy O'Kennedy, as the spokesperson on finance for Fianna Fáil, said that our Government should get rid of VAT on hurleys. Does the Minister remember VAT on hurleys?

(Carlow-Kilkenny): They got no invitations to Croke Park.

We got no invitations, but there was a leaflet for us to pick up on every seat in Croke Park for the two or three matches following the passing of that Finance Bill. It still has not been removed.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): The Taoiseach goes to Croke Park.

There are no leaflets when the Taoiseach arrives at Croke Park. Will there be a leaflet from the GPA about this issue the next time there is a full house in Croke Park? There should not be and that is why I ask the Minister to accept our proposal. It is proper recompense for the efforts made by so many people in providing entertainment Sunday after Sunday and in training day in, day out to be as good as the next team.

I will give way to age.

I thank the Deputy. I will be in the House for only another week or two in any case.

It is the Deputy's last speech.

He will be gone in time for Punchestown.

I find it difficult to criticise my friend, Deputy McCreevy, because not only has he been good to me and to fellow Members, but he has been good to many sections of our people. Therefore, I am speaking with my tongue in my cheek when I say I look with disbelief at the proposal to give a tax break to super rich sportsmen like Mick Kinnane, Paddy Eddery – to whom I also owe a lot – Roy Keane and other such people. It is extraordinary that a man getting 90,000 "flags" per week should be given a tax break.

Two of those people would not qualify as they are not tax-resident.

There are many people earning unbelievable sums of money who will qualify, such as golfers. It defies logic and that is the only gentle criticism I have of the Minister. I must support my colleagues in their reasonable request. My only difficulty is whether the GAA players could accept it, the GAA being an amateur association. Perhaps, that can be ironed out but if they get this tax concession, where will it end? Will Leinster senior league soccer players and hockey players look for the same?

The soccer players get it.

Where will it end? As a man who has been known to have a flutter, and who usually loses, I lost significantly on AIB shares which I bought at £13 each. I lost more than I would have lost in a day or maybe a year at the Curragh. I do not expect that money back and do not support my party's claim that Eircom shareholders should be given back money they have lost.

We have passed on. The Deputy might return to the subject of sport.

I will. That is as daft as the proposal to give back money to super-rich sportspeople. For that reason, I say "thanks for the memory and thanks for the tips" to the Minister but I support the Fine Gael amendment.

I bid farewell to a great soccer player.

I thank the Deputy. That is a large brandy I owe him.

Deputy McGahon had a distinguished sporting career before he went into politics.

I have already made known my views on Committee Stage and I do not want to hold up proceedings here. However, with the feedback I have been getting from a large number of Gaelic footballers across the country about this amendment by Deputy McGrath, I am convinced this is highly acceptable to the rank and file of the GAA. This was one of the few elements of the Finance Bill that was taken up at the Minister's press conference and the Minister emphasised it to take attention from other things, as a good politician would do. However, he said one of the reasons he gave this concession was national pride.

There are no games more representative of national pride than hurling and Gaelic football. They are not an imitation, they are unique and distinctive. The GAA is the largest amateur organisation in the world. Only last week, when the bid for the European soccer finals in 2008 was failing, where had the Government to go but to Croke Park? I had asked the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation on a number of occasions whether he would approach the GAA about opening up Croke Park, because of the upgrading of the surface, and he said he would not go near the GAA as it is an autonomous body. However, the Government went to the GAA on its knees last week to get a commitment that it may open up the field by 2008.

That was due recognition of the influence of the GAA. Across the country, the facilities the GAA has provided as an amateur organisation, by collecting money in local communities, is unrivalled. I have been all over the world and have not seen any amateur organisation with funding from its own resources providing such an infrastructure.

We need to recognise that. People are very disappointed and I will not use exaggerated language to describe that. People feel they have been left out and treated as second class athletes. GAA county players who train all year round regard themselves as elite athletes in the same way as international athletes do. The Minister will not accept this amendment—

He will, of course.

—but he should. When the Minister announced this concession for professional athletes, I was surprised he did not at least give it to the athletes on the carding system, who are training full-time and verified by the Irish Sports Council. If the Minister had given this concession to those athletes, that would have satisfied a large number of the serious athletes in Ireland. The Minister could have done that for those on the carding system and for those in the GAA and we would then have a very good package for sport here.

I welcome the principle of the proposal. It is its limitations I find objectionable.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Like Deputy McGahon, I am also in my last hours in the House but the void will not be as big when I leave as when he does.

That is a brandy for Deputy Browne also.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): The Minister may not read the Carlow edition of The Nationalist but the headline on it was “Plain Daft” and that is how I described the Minister's scheme.

It was sent to me.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): The headline was not big enough. The Minister's colleague, the Minister for Education and Science, last year decided to punish teachers by docking pay for not doing voluntary work. I told him – although like everybody else I was wasting my sweetness – that he would rue the day he made such a stupid decision. Voluntary work is what has kept this country going and will keep it going. That is evi dent now that teachers are being paid to do the work yet will not do it.

This issue is the same. Amateur players give of their time, the GAA is run by volunteers and they provide entertainment Sunday after Sunday. I do not have to remind the Minister that the Lilywhites gave great value despite the sacrifices they had to make. Mick O'Dwyer had to drive up from Waterville on a regular basis. That may be in a different category but it is impossible to insult players of intercounty standard who Sunday after Sunday provide entertainment for thousands. There is not the same commitment in any other sport and we are not talking about a large sum of money, it is a mere gesture. If we fail to give recognition to voluntary work, we will face difficulties.

Deputy McDowell raised this amendment at the select committee last week. What he is proposing is essentially a tax deduction presumed against a person's total income from all sources for expenses incurred by certain sportspersons, to be specified in regulations, in playing or training for their sport. This is to be regardless of whether that person derives any taxable income from the sport concerned. The deduction will be subject to a ceiling of €5,000 in any year with a minimum figure of €2,000 to be assumed to be incurred for this purpose.

Generally, in the tax code expenses are allowable only to the extent that they represent costs incurred wholly and exclusively in deriving income. In the case of employees, there is a further test in that the expense must also be necessarily incurred in the conduct of their employment. In the case of persons who earn income from their sport, any expenses incurred in playing or training will be, to the extent that they are not reimbursed normally, fully allowable for tax purposes against their sporting income.

Deputy McDowell's amendment would not help such cases – it may hinder them by imposing an annual ceiling of €5,000 on allowable expenses where there is none at present. Persons who do not earn income from their sport cannot claim a deduction for sports related expenses against their ordinary employment or business income for the simple reason that sports expenses are not laid out for the purpose of earning their income. I made the point at the select committee, and I repeat it, that it is not possible to get a deduction against earnings where no such earnings exist. The net effect of Deputy McDowell's amendment would, therefore, be to give an annual tax deduction of up to €5,000 to certain amateur sportspersons to the extent that their expenses are not reimbursed. Depending, of course, on the regulations referred to in the amendment, it may prove difficult to stop the extension of the tax relief to persons engaged in sport as primarily a leisure activity rather than as a competitive activity. For example, by effectively providing tax relief for subscriptions to golf clubs, such relief would potentially be enormously costly and it is difficult to see what exactly it is aiming to achieve.

There is no doubt the introduction of relief for retiring sportspersons under section 12 of the Bill has prompted a renewed debate on the question of amateurism versus professionalism in certain sporting codes. This debate has been ongoing for a number of years. The question of whether to pay certain categories of sportspersons is one to be decided by the sporting organisations concerned and has nothing to do with tax relief per se. There are much more fundamental issues involved in such decisions.

As regards amendment No. 15 put forward by Deputies Mitchell and McGrath, it is not clear from the amendment whether this relief is intended as a tax credit of €2,000 per annum or as an annual allowance at the standard rate or at the sportspersons marginal rate. While the relief is intended to be limited to Gaelic footballers and hurlers nominated by county boards, it does not appear to be restricted to senior inter-county players and is open-ended with regard to how many players each county may nominate. My unwillingness to give tax relief to amateur sportspersons has been portrayed in some quarters as a snub to the GAA and their top hurlers and footballers. As I explained to the select committee last week, the tax relief for retiring sportspersons, which I introduced this year and which is contained in section 12 of the Bill as initiated, is restricted to direct earning from participation in sport. It is wrong to suggest that it can, in some way, simply be extended to cover amateur sportspersons. It does not nor can it apply where no earnings exist.

I am more than happy to stand on my record of support for the GAA. Indeed, I came in for a fair amount of criticism when I granted the GAA the equivalent of over €25 million in 1998 to aid in the redevelopment of Croke Park. I am very well aware of the effort and commitment which the top players make to training and preparation and of the pleasure and enjoyment they give to the sporting public. During the discussions at the select committee, Deputy Deenihan described these players as elite athletes and I would not disagree with that description. There are, however, sportsmen and women in other amateur codes whose dedication and commitment to their chosen sport is equally impressive and who are also excluded from availing of this relief. The question of whether these sportspersons should be paid is entirely a matter for their governing bodies just as it is for the GAA with regard to its top players. I am not prepared to agree to this amendment either. Even if I was, it could not be limited to GAA players. Once a link between a tax relief and sports income is broken, it would become difficult, if not impossible, to stop its extension to persons engaged in sport primarily as a leisure activity rather than a competitive one. This would be very costly.

The GAA is already well treated in the tax code. The current tax exemption for the income of sports bodies was introduced in 1927 specifically for the games of Gaelic football, hurling and handball, and it was only in 1963 that it was extended to other sports. Where a sports organisation wishes to reimburse its members, whether players, coaches, selectors or referees, for bona fide and reasonable expenses they incur in attending training sessions, matches etc., those payments are not assessable to income tax. There is no set limit which can be reimbursed tax free in any year. It depends entirely on the facts in each case. In the context of amateur sports, the tax code should not be expected to contribute any more than this. I do not intend to give further tax relief in these circumstances as a substitute for salary and for these reasons, I cannot accept this amendment either.

At the select committee, I pointed out what this relief is about. It relates to the income a sportsperson earns directly from sport and from direct participation in that sport. When a sportsperson retires after usually a short earning career, he or she will be allowed to have his or her tax recomputed taking into account that there would be a 40% deduction against directly earned sports earnings. If a person is able to arrange his or her affairs in such a fashion that he or she pays no tax as a result of other allowances and reliefs and no tax is paid in that year, when it comes to having his or her tax recomputed, he or she will get no tax back. It is based on the very simple principle that most sportspersons' careers are short-lived, whether rugby footballers, jockeys, soccer players or whoever. Two of the three people my friend, Deputy McGahon, mentioned will not benefit from this relief because they are not tax residents in this country and have not paid tax here.

If one wants to talk about professional jockeys, I could name a couple of hundred fellows I have known over my lifetime standing on street corners in parts of Kildare and Meath without anything in their back pockets. Their earning careers were short-lived and they now have jobs which are a long way from the heady and glorious days when they were acclaimed by the public. These people had short careers and whatever money they made was spent at the time. They may have been injured or whatever and they had no earnings. This will apply to direct participation in sport and to the earnings people receive from that.

As regards the GAA, I received a very nice letter from the chairman of the Gaelic Players Association asking me, on foot of its recent meet ing with the Taoiseach, to set out formal clarification on a number of issues, which I will do. I would like to clarify the point regarding expenses. Expenses incurred are subject to the usual limits laid down by Revenue. People are not taxed on their expenses. If in any profession or walk of life one gets money dressed up as expenses, but which is over and above expenses, it is taxable. The idea of expenses is to reimburse one for expenses incurred. It is not intended that there will be a profit element. Whether the GAA addresses the matter of paying players is entirely a matter for itself, and Deputy Deenihan and others—

Will the Minister give me a minute?

—have particular views on it. This relief will benefit a small number of people, including League of Ireland soccer players from the earnings they get from playing soccer, not from any other moneys they receive. What people are asking me to do in extending it to other amateur organisations is to give a kind of tax credit to people involved in sport, and that is not on as people will readily appreciate.

I refrained from criticising the original proposal by the Minister when I heard it but I thought it a little eccentric. I said to myself that after five years, he is entitled to one last throw of the dice, one last trick. There is no doubt it was addressed at those former jockeys in County Kildare, which, as I said, is like a tax free zone.

The constituency I represent, Kildare North, does not include any of the areas people normally associate with County Kildare. The number of persons in that category would not be more than four.

It is nostalgia on the part of the Minister. I do not begrudge him that, but when the Minister sets his mind to doing something, he does so regardless of all the negative advice he gets from time to time from officials. In this case, the Minister found a way to help people who have had high earnings in the past. This follows a trend in that he is always able to find ways to help the rich but not to help those at the bottom. This is a consistent trend.

The Minister has been mixing with the high flyers in the stands at the Curragh for far too long. Not only has he imbibed their style, he has imbibed their thinking. The Minister's sports proposal will help people who have had very high earnings in the past, but he has no regard for those, mentioned by successive speakers, who have made huge efforts at enormous costs to themselves. It is reflective of a clear trend. I am sure it is unconscious, but the Minister has drifted in such a way as to become the enemy of the working class and those of us who are concerned about social justice.

I do not think the Deputy means that but it will look good in his election literature.

As the Minister will see in the coming weeks, we will be able to produce many examples of where the well off have been lavishly looked after by him and the less well off have been nearly abandoned.

I am required to put the following question in accordance with an order of the Dáil of this day: "That the amendments set down by the Minister for Finance and not disposed of are hereby made to the Bill, Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed."

Question put.

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Andrews, David.Aylward, Liam.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Byrne, Hugh.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Cowen, Brian.Cullen, Martin.Daly, Brendan.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Noel.

Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Flood, Chris.Fox, Mildred.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian. Lenihan, Conor.

Tá–continued

McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John J.Martin, Micheál.Moffatt, Thomas.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Flynn, Noel.

O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Rourke, Mary.Power, Seán.Reynolds, Albert.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Michael.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Barrett, Seán.Bell, Michael.Belton, Louis J.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Bruton, Richard.Burke, Liam.Carey, Donal.Clune, Deirdre.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Creed, Michael.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.Deenihan, Jimmy.Dukes, Alan.Durkan, Bernard.Gilmore, Éamon.Gormley, John.Hayes, Brian.Hayes, Tom.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Jim.

Higgins, Michael.Howlin, Brendan.McDowell, Derek.McGahon, Brendan.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Jim.Mitchell, Olivia.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Penrose, William.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Ring, Michael.Sargent, Trevor.Shatter, Alan.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Power; Níl, Deputies Bradford and Stagg.
Question declared carried.
Top
Share