Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 25 Jun 2002

Vol. 553 No. 5

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 19, motion re Freedom of Information Act, 1997 (Prescribed Bodies) Regulations, 2002; No. 25, statements on European Council, Seville; No. 20, motion re leave to introduce Supplementary Estimate [Vote 35] and, subject to the agreement of No. 20, to take Supplementary Estimate [Vote 35]; and No. 5, Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 2002 – Order for Second and Second and Subsequent Stages.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 11 p.m.; (2) all divisions demanded in the House this week shall be taken manually; (3) No. 19 shall be decided without debate; (4) the proceedings on No. 25 shall be as follows: (i) the statements shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 60 minutes and shall be confined to the Taoiseach, the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party, and a representative of the non-group Members, who shall be called upon in that order, and shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; and (ii) immediately following the statements, the Taoiseach, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, and Minister of State, Deputy Roche, shall take questions for a period not exceeding 30 minutes; (5) No. 20 shall be decided without debate and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith, and subject to the agreement of No. 20, Supplementary Estimate [Vote 35] shall be moved and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 40 minutes, and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith, and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the speeches shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 20 minutes, and the speeches shall be confined to the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party, and a representative of the non-group Members, and shall not exceed five minutes in each case; immediately following the speeches, the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism shall take questions for a period not exceeding 20 minutes; the Second and Remaining Stages of No. 5 shall be taken today and the following arrangements shall apply: Second Stage to conclude within 90 minutes, if not previously concluded; Committee and Remaining Stages to conclude at 11 p.m., if not previously concluded; and the proceedings thereon shall be brought to a conclusion by one question in each case which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government. Private Members' Business shall be No. 35, motion re tourism.

Mr. Sargent

On a point of order, where did the Taoiseach get the term "non-group Members"? The Green Party, Sinn Féin, the Socialist Party and the Independents' group are all here. Is the Taoiseach able to cope with the diversity?

Mr. Kenny

Before agreeing to any of the—

Mr. Sargent

Is the Taoiseach going to answer my question?

The Taoiseach

For the last 40 years this House has had a Standing Order which states that a group of seven or over—

Mr. Gormley

It was changed in 1997. The Taoiseach wants to go back to the system we had 40 years ago.

Mr. Kenny

Before agreeing to any of the proposals I seek clarification from the Taoiseach as to whether the Dáil will sit next week. The Ansbacher report, the benchmarking report and the prices report on financial accounts will all be published by then and they are matters of great public interest. I feel the Dáil should meet next week to discuss these matters.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal regarding the late sitting agreed to?

Mr. Kenny

If the Taoiseach clarifies that we are sitting next week to discuss the other matters I will be happy to support the Order of Business.

Mr. Quinn

It would be helpful to this House if the Taoiseach will indicate the Government's intentions. We know that the Ansbacher report is to be published next Tuesday on the website of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. If that is to be the method of publication there are no logistical constraints with, for example, printing. What is the Government's intention about sitting next week to debate that report?

Mr. Sargent

I see the Government wishes to sit late but 11 p.m. may not be late enough given the amount of business to be done. Rather than suggesting that we sit all night, can the Taoiseach allow the House to sit next week? There is a considerable consensus that this would be a reasonable thing to do, particularly with the publication of the Ansbacher report next Tuesday.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I note with some disappointment that there is no provision for Sinn Féin, the Green Party or the Independent Members to participate in the Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 2002. It was my understanding that was—

An Ceann Comhairle

Perhaps the Deputy could leave his question until we come to that item.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It is critically important because that is a matter which is to be guillotined at 11 p.m. tonight, yet provision has only been made for a 90 minute debate with half an hour each for the Government, Fine Gael and the Labour Party. There is no provision for my party, other parties or Independent Members. I oppose the late sitting unless we have a provision of time to allow other Deputies to have their say in this House.

The Taoiseach

I understand that time is to be given to other groups on that issue.

Mr. J. Higgins

What is the arrangement?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is No. 1, the proposal re the late sitting, agreed to?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

There is no—

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on this matter.

Mr. Kenny

Can I get clarification on whether the Dáil will sit next week?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ó Caoláin has spoken.

Mr. Kenny

I am not Deputy Ó Caoláin.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, but the late sitting has been opposed and I am putting the question.

Question put: "That the late sitting be agreed to."

An Ceann Comhairle

In accordance with Standing Order 69 (2), I inform the House that it is not possible to conduct this division by elec tronic means. Members should now proceed to the lobbies where the division will be taken manually.

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, Barry.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Séamus.Browne, John.Callanan, Joe.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Cregan, John.Cullen, Martin.Curran, John.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.

Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDowell, Michael.McEllistrim, Thomas.McGuinness, John.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.Nolan, M. J.Ó Cuív, Éamon.Ó Feargháil, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donoghue, John.O'Donovan, Denis.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Peter.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wallace, Dan.Walsh, Joe.Wilkinson, Ollie.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Boyle, Dan.Breen, Pat.Broughan, Thomas P.Connaughton, Paul.Connolly, Paudge.Costello, Joe.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Crowe, Seán.Cuffe, Ciarán.Deasy, John.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard J.English, Damien.Ferris, Martin.Gilmore, Éamon.Gogarty, Paul.Gormley, John.Gregory, Tony.Harkin, Marian.Higgins, Joe.Howlin, Brendan.Kenny, Enda.Lynch, Kathleen.McCormack, Pádraic.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.

McHugh, Paddy.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Morgan, Arthur.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Murphy, Gerard.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Pattison, Séamus.Penrose, Willie.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Ryan, Éamon.Sargent, Trevor.Sherlock, Joe.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Power; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

The second proposal is that all divisions demanded in the House this week shall be taken manually. Is that agreed? Agreed. The third proposal is that No. 19, motion re Freedom of Information Act, 1997 (Prescribed Bodies) Regulations, 2002 shall be decided without debate. Is that agreed?

Mr. Sargent

It is not agreed. This particular motion seems to be related to the Government position indicated by the Minister for Defence, Deputy Smith, that the remit of the Freedom of Information Act should be restricted rather than extended. We cannot agree to the Government line on this, particularly given that the Ansbacher report will not be published this week. We are not going to have freedom of information on that matter until next Tuesday and are not going to have the Nice referendum bill before next Thursday. The Dáil is being deprived of basic freedom of information.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 19 be agreed to."

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, Barry.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Séamus.Browne, John.Callanan, Joe.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Cassidy, Donie.Collins, Michael.Connolly, Paudge.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Cregan, John.Cullen, Martin.Curran, John.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Fox, Mildred.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.

Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDowell, Michael.McEllistrim, Thomas.McGuinness, John.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.Nolan, M. J.Ó Cuív, Éamon.Ó Feargháil, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donoghue, John.O'Donovan, Denis.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Peter.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wallace, Dan.Walsh, Joe.Wilkinson, Ollie.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Níl

Boyle, Dan.Broughan, Thomas P.Costello, Joe.Crowe, Seán.Cuffe, Ciarán.Ferris, Martin.Gilmore, Éamon.Gogarty, Paul.Gormley, John.Gregory, Tony.Harkin, Marian.Higgins, Joe.Howlin, Brendan.Lynch, Kathleen.McManus, Liz.Morgan, Arthur.

Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Pattison, Séamus.Penrose, Willie.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Ryan, Éamon.Sargent, Trevor.Sherlock, Joe.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and S. Power; Níl, Deputies Boyle and Ó Snodaigh.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is proposal No. 4 relating to No. 25, statements on the European Council in Seville, agreed to? Agreed.

Proposal No. 5 relates to No. 20, motion re leave to introduce Supplementary Estimate [Vote 35] and, subject to the agreement of No. 20, to take Supplementary Estimate [Vote 35]. Is that agreed to? Agreed.

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 5, Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 2002 – Order for Second and Second and Remaining Stages, agreed to?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

No. I thank the Taoiseach for his response to the inquiry I made earlier. I want to make it very clear that this is not something I relish. In a situation like this, the Taoiseach can respond by saying that ten minutes are available. However, there is no such reference or provision and that is what is at the core of the annoyance of the two smaller parties in the House and the Independent Deputies. Our mandate is equal to any other, yet this is being offered as a gift rather than as a right. Our mandate has to be respected and it is imperative that our position is properly reflected in the configuration of the House.

I cannot accept the position as presented in proposal No. 5 in regard to guillotining a very important debate. I oppose this particular proposal and urge that additional time be provided to accommodate a full debate of the issues involved.

Mr. Sargent

The Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 2002, is unnecessary from our point of view, but its necessity hopefully can be debated when the time comes. It is important to point out that we were unaware of what time would be given to us and we are still unclear, in many ways, as to when that time will be given. The point has to be made in regard to this and other business that these matters should have been dealt with earlier rather than, under duress, forcing us into being difficult on the Order of Business.

We could do our business much more smoothly in the House if respect was given to the mandate which each of us has been given and if the groups that are here, including the Green Party, Sinn Féin, the Socialist Party and Independent Deputies, had the due recognition their mandate requires. Will the Ceann Comhairle and the Government take on board that we want to participate in the business of the House in accordance with Standing Orders, but that currently they are not in accordance with natural justice?

An Ceann Comhairle

As the Deputy is aware, Standing Orders are a matter for the sub-committee on Dáil reform.

Mr. Stagg

We are dealing with Opposition time and the majority of Opposition Deputies are of the opinion that the position put forward by Sinn Féin and Green Party spokespersons should be implemented. As it is the time of the Opposition, I do not know why the Government is refusing to implement it. In the interim, the Labour Party has offered ten minutes in this debate to the Green Party and Sinn Féin to be shared as they see fit.

The Taoiseach

The summer recess will provide an opportunity in the ongoing meetings between the Whips to try to resolve these issues. The Government does not have any desire to press anybody into any position. The Deputies will understand that until current Standing Orders are changed—

Mr. Gormley

The Taoiseach can change them.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach without interruption, please.

The Taoiseach

I listened to the Deputy's leader. The better part of 45 minutes has elapsed, yet we have only completed 30 seconds of business. People are arguing for 20 minutes of time, but practically all the Deputies in Deputy Ó Caoláin's party could have made a speech at this stage.

Mr. Gormley

If allowed.

The Taoiseach

I accept that. The way to do that is to have debate and dialogue, but in the meantime Standing Orders and all the other issues that need to be resolved – there are many of them – will be put on the table. It is not just a question of Sinn Féin's five Members; I have 81 here and it is a very unsatisfactory position for many of them. As a good democrat, I do not think that Deputy Ó Caoláin would argue that his five Members should have more time than my 81 Members. If we could resolve some of these issues—

Mr. Sargent

They all want to be Ministers.

The Taoiseach

—we would be very happy to make the necessary changes to Standing Orders. I cannot include this in the Order of Business because it is in breach of Standing Orders. I am happy that in the meantime we organise with the Whips, as Deputy Stagg has done, to try to give time. I agree with the point that there are some archaic elements in Standing Orders and one of them is the fact that we have all been here for 50 minutes, wasting our time.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 5 agreed to?

Deputies

No.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 5 be agreed to."

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, Barry.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Séamus.Browne, John.Callanan, Joe.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Cassidy, Donie.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Cregan, John.Cullen, Martin.Curran, John.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.

Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Seamus.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDowell, Michael.McEllistrim, Thomas.McGuinness, John.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.Nolan, M. J.Ó Cuív, Éamon.Ó Feargháil, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donoghue, John.O'Donovan, Denis.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Peter.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wallace, Dan.Walsh, Joe.Wilkinson, Ollie.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Níl

Boyle, Dan.Broughan, Thomas P.Crowe, Seán.Cuffe, Ciarán.Ferris, Martin.Gilmore, Éamon.Gogarty, Paul.Gormley, John.Gregory, Tony.Harkin, Marian.Higgins, Joe.Howlin, Brendan.Lynch, Kathleen.McGrath, Finian.McHugh, Paddy.McManus, Liz.

Morgan, Arthur.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Pattison, Séamus.Penrose, Willie.Quinn, Ruairí.Ryan, Éamon.Sargent, Trevor.Sherlock, Joe.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and S. Power; Níl, Deputies Stagg and Boyle.

Question declared carried.

Mr. Kenny

When the Dáil resumed, I said to the Taoiseach that we would provide constructive opposition in so far as that was possible. We have now been voting for more than an hour and I still do not have clarification on whether the Dáil will sit next week. Given that the benchmarking report which is of interest to the entire public service and others is due to be published on Monday, and that the Ansbacher report is due to be published next week with the financial accounts, should not Dáil Éireann – the House that represents the people – meet next week to discuss both issues to some extent? Will the Taoiseach consider that and confirm that the Dáil will sit? Otherwise, difficulties will occur on this side of the House tomorrow and on Thursday.

Mr. Quinn

Those watching "Questions and Answers" last night would have seen and heard the debate on the relevance of this House and noted the concern that the public has about a report that has been virtually five years in the making – originating with Mr. Justice McCracken's inquiry and recommendations. This was when we first heard the name Ansbacher in the context of tax cheats and people who had deprived this nation of vital revenue at a time when there were massive cutbacks being inflicted on it, the consequences of which are still with us in some respects.

If, as Denis Bradley said last night, this House is to be perceived as being relevant to the citizens of this nation, it is essential either that the report be published as soon as possible and not next Tuesday, as has been indicated, or alternatively, that this House come back next week to discuss the report and other related matters.

This is the House that raises taxes, votes on taxes and suffers the political consequences of taxes that are raised or are not collected. Will the Taoiseach indicate whether the Government intends to sit next week to facilitate a full and comprehensive debate on this issue? Otherwise, we will not be back until September, when our business will, I understand, be confined exclusively to matters relating to a referendum.

The Taoiseach

I welcome the decision of the High Court to publish the report in full at the earliest possible date. I certainly agree with the comments of the President of the High Court that publication in full is necessary and in the public interest and that it is necessary to restore confidence in the organs of the State. I remember when the Tánaiste said three years ago that she was setting up a process to deal with this many people were sceptical that we would ever have a final report, never mind its publication. Everything that the Tánaiste said at the time has been vindicated. Those people who did not believe the process into which she entered would prove to be so successful and fulfilling were proved wrong.

The position is that the House will go into recess on Thursday. The Government intends to come back at the beginning of September. I have no doubt there will be issues every week which people will say the House should come back to deal with.

Deputy Kenny raised the issue of the benchmarking report. Its production is totally independent and we have no briefing in any form, as was agreed. The report will be published and the Government has already made the commitment that 25% of the sum indicated would be paid from 1 December last. The remainder of the discussion on that issue will be part of the process that has been laid out, a process that will commence in the autumn. We will not make any final decisions on these matters until those discussions take place. There is no need to bring the Dáil back to address this issue. We do not have any great difficulty with a confined debate on the other issue if that is what people want, nor with putting aside a number of hours over the next week or two for it. I suggest, however, that it would be better if people saw the report first. The report, including the appendices, weighs 25 kg. In physical size, it is the length of the entire Fine Gael front bench. I do not mean that disrespectfully: it could have been any other front bench. The length is that of eight seats.

Mr. Allen

We weigh more than 25 kg.

The Taoiseach

I know, I am talking about the length of the bench. Nobody could go through that in a couple of days. The eminent judge has already said that he will not publish it on the Internet for fear of legal cases being taken internationally. Whether we like it or not, we will have to read it physically. I am not sure how long it would take speed-readers to get through it but I suggest that it would take some time.

Mr. Rabbitte

It did not take Albert long to read the beef tribunal report. Maybe we should get him back.

The Taoiseach

It was very speedy.

Mr. Howlin

We could get a quick summary.

The Taoiseach

I want to be constructive and Deputies Quinn and Kenny have put this in a constructive way. If, having examined the report, people believe that we should have a debate here, the Tánaiste and I, who have discussed this matter, would be quite happy to have a confined session. If we are to come back with the intention of discussing this report and end up discussing this, that and the other, the answer is no. However, if people genuinely want to discuss this important report, which, as Deputies Kenny and Quinn said, has been in preparation for several years, we can come back and have a confined debate on the issue. I would agree to that. If it is open-ended, with the House coming back for all sorts of normal business, the answer is no.

I hope this is helpful. I have tried to be constructive. It is an important report and a huge amount of effort has gone into it. I have no problem discussing the benchmarking report in the autumn but we will not get anywhere with it until then.

Mr. Kenny

I thank the Taoiseach for his constructive response, although I am not sure who he was pointing at when he was waving his arm over and back. In terms of the spaces on this bench, I am not sure whether it is the same size as the Fianna Fáil bench.

The Taoiseach

It is the same size.

Mr. Cowen

Never mind the quality, feel the width.

Mr. Kenny

Assuming that speed-readers make some assessment of the Ansbacher report next week, is the Taoiseach proposing to have the confined debate the following week? That would be helpful, given the size and extent of the report.

Mr. Quinn

Members of this House may have heard Dr. Connolly, on "Morning Ireland" this morning, talking about young people who were not born when the Good Friday Agreement was enacted and voted upon, yet can begin to discern, at the age of three, differences of a sectarian nature in Northern Ireland. In the light of the findings of this study in relation to three to six year olds and the implications for peace and inter-community relations, has the Government any proposals for the authorities, communities or representatives of civic society in Northern Ireland, where sectarian hatreds seem to fuel tensions in both communities, to examine the ways in which we can move forward if the Good Friday Agreement, with all its potential, is to be achieved and implemented?

Mr. Kenny

Are there any plans for the Minister for Education and Science to meet his counterpart in Northern Ireland to deal with the issue raised by Deputy Quinn in the context of the curriculum for schoolchildren?

The Taoiseach

There is a meeting of the North-South Ministerial Council this week and I have no doubt that it will come up for discussion in an informal way, if not on an official basis. Next week there is also a round of discussions between the two governments and the pro-agreement partners at which the matter will arise. A number of programmes and initiatives are being developed and are working within the system. Unfortunately, as I said here last week, in some areas there are still major difficulties and lack of progress and enormous sectarian actions are taking place. This is at its height at flashpoints and interchange points and there have been attacks, regrettably, from both sides against members of the community. This makes people aware at a very young age of what side they are on, what area they are from, who is being pushed out of an area and all the other issues. The report indicates this.

Education certainly has something to do with it – and I have no difficulty with exchanges about education – but all of these things are extremely difficult and complex and as long as the harassment goes on at interface areas this remains an enormous problem. There have already been many discussions about this at meetings of North-South bodies and between the Ministers and we continued this during the last Government. There were also many discussions between the former Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Woods, and the Northern Ireland Minister for Education, Mr. McGuinness, and we will continue to build on that. However, the problems at the interface areas go far beyond education. It is an enormous difficulty and creates enormous tension for the communities. That is the problem we must try to overcome.

Mr. Quinn

Does the Taoiseach share my concern, and the concern of many who read this study, with the revelation that the level of sectarian awareness and prejudice rose dramatically after the three year olds had spent two years in compulsory education – in other words, from the age of five onwards – and that there seems to be some prima facie evidence from the study, although the sample base is less than 400, that going to school actually heightens sectarian awareness and that there may now therefore be a need for a move away from the denomination-based education system in Northern Ireland to reflect the model of community government?

Will the Taoiseach, on the basis of this study and other knowledge that we have, undertake to raise with the various religious authorities the desirability of moving away from denominational education, which seems in part to contribute to the awareness of sectarian divisions, and towards a system of integrated education for all? Only 4% of the children of Northern Ireland, as the Taoiseach will be aware, benefit from integrated education. If the lessons of the Good Friday Agreement are to be applied fully, surely it is now time for the religious leaders on all sides to agree to move towards integrated education. Will the Taoiseach give an undertaking that he will raise these matters with the relevant religious authorities so that we do not consolidate this frightening legacy?

The Taoiseach

I have no difficulty with further discussions. We have already had discussions about many of these matters. However, I do not want to give the impression that they are in any way easily resolved, not only by the religious leaders but by the communities and parents themselves. In the interface areas, the parents feel that they are protecting their schools as part of a community. They feel that their schools are under attack and that an effort is being made to push them out and harass them. However, not all areas are interchange areas and much progress has been made elsewhere. Education is one part of it. Having had this discussion with many community—

Mr. Quinn

If we have integrated government, can we not have integrated education?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Quinn should allow the Taoiseach to reply.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is aware of the tensions around this issue. Integrated education works best where the people want it to work and where it is a voluntary system. The Deputy knows what would happen were a system to be imposed. I accept the point about raising the issue to do something much better than is being done. This is another report which shows the difficulties young people in Northern Ireland face. I will raise these matters.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Government in its previous incarnation accepted the Whistleblowers Protection Bill from the Labour Party on Second Stage. For the best part of three years the Taoiseach held out the prospect of it being enacted. What is the position of the Bill?

The Taoiseach

I do not recall that the Bill had gone to Committee Stage. I understand it was awaiting discussion on that Stage. It will be reinstated.

Mr. Sargent

I am aware that the Forum of People with Disabilities is in discussions with the Government about the Disability Bill and the timeframe envisaged for it. I take it the Taoiseach will be able to give me some timeframe other than saying discussions are ongoing, something which he told me on the previous occasion.

I am not sure if the Taoiseach met the Greenpeace representative in Leinster House last week. The prospect of MOX fuel coming down the Irish Sea from Japan next summer raises the issue of the Sea Pollution (Hazardous and Noxious Substances) (Civil Liability and Compensation) Bill, 2000, which is on Second Stage. It would be an opportunity to pursue the matter further if discussion on the Bill were to be resumed at an early date.

Ar Bhille na dTeangacha Oifigiúla (Comhionannas), 2002, de bharr go mbeidh daoine anseo ag plé le muintir na Gaeltachtaí i rith an tsamhraidh, go mórmhór le coláistí samhraidh, an bhfuil aon seans gur féidir linn a rá leo cathain go mbeidh an Bille seo ina Acht?

The Taoiseach

The last Bill mentioned is in the Seanad. The sea pollution Bill is on Second Stage in the Dáil. I would be out of order if I gave details to the Deputy about the other matter he raised about that. Perhaps he should table a question on it. There have been discussions on that issue.

Mr. Sargent

Which matter?

The Taoiseach

The movement of MOX fuel. Consultation is taking place on the Disability Bill and, if the Deputy wants details, he should table a question to the relevant Minister.

Mr. Naughten

When will we see the new Bill to transform the Road Transport Act, 1932. When will we see the implementation of the penalty points system given the further carnage on our roads over the weekend and the fact that gardaí are becoming revenue collectors for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform rather than enforcing road traffic legislation?

The Taoiseach

The procedures for the penalty points system have been announced.

Mr. Naughten

When will we see it?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy should table a question to the relevant Minister.

Mr. Naughten

It has been promised for four years.

The Taoiseach

A road traffic Bill is to be reinstated.

Mr. Howlin

We believe the European Union Bill, 2001, which is a Labour Party Bill restored to the Order Paper last week, to be an essential part of the preparation in response to the people's vote in the first Nice treaty referendum. Is it the Government's intention that the Bill should go to Committee Stage given that it has completed Second Stage?

The Taoiseach

Yes, the Government is happy to bring it to Committee Stage and discuss it. We already brought forward proposals but there are others we did not and they can be dealt with on Committee Stage.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I note from the Order Paper that the Order for Second Stage of the Private Security Services Bill, 2001, has been presented. Mindful of, and reflecting on, the significant concern relating to people involved in that industry, what is the Government's intention in terms of moving ahead with that legislation as it is not on the Order Paper to be taken this week?

The Taoiseach

It will be reinstated.

Mr. Allen

When will we get a list of promised legislation? Is it proposed to introduce legislation to abolish the dual mandate relating to local authorities and the Oireachtas?

An Ceann Comhairle

The first part of the question is in order.

The Taoiseach

The legislative programme will be presented in September when it will have been decided.

Mr. Allen

Surely I am entitled to ask the second question if it is proposed to introduce legislation in the matter concerned?

An Ceann Comhairle

No. It is not in order to ask whether it is proposed to introduce legislation. Otherwise we would be here all evening. We are already here an hour and a half.

Mr. Allen

Does the Taoiseach propose to reinstate the Committee on European Affairs before the recess given the impending referendum?

The Taoiseach

That is a matter for the Whips.

Ms McManus

Last Sunday it was revealed that operations were carried out in a major Dublin hospital with instruments which had not been properly sterilised. Is the Taoiseach aware of the concerns relating to protecting patients' health and—

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Ms McManus

There is promised legislation which is appropriate to this issue. The health strategy promises a health information and standards authority which would be independent and which I presume would have a statutory basis. Will the Government progress this legislation—

An Ceann Comhairle

Is legislation promised on this?

Ms McManus

—to ensure the protection of patients' health and lives?

The Taoiseach

It is a proposal in the health strategy. There is no legislation as yet.

Ms McManus

Does this mean it is not important?

The Taoiseach

No, it is just not ready yet.

Ms McManus

Has it begun?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a discussion on it.

Mr. Broughan

The Taoiseach was famously asked during the election campaign about the price of a loaf and a litre of milk and he did not appear to be sure about the way prices were rising. In the context of euro inflation and the great euro rip-off, is it possible that the Forfás report prepared for the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, will be placed before the Dáil this week?

The Taoiseach

The Government does not have the report yet but, in due course, it will.

Mr. Timmins

Given that some legislation, such as the National Beef Assurance Scheme Act, 2002, has not yet been implemented, when publishing the legislative programme for the forthcoming year, will the Taoiseach publish another list of legislation which was passed during the term of the previous Government and which has not yet been implemented?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should submit a question on it.

Mr. Timmins

The Taoiseach might like to reply. It would be helpful to Members to know which legislation was passed and has not yet been implemented.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should submit a question.

Mr. Gormley

During the previous Dáil I raised on a number of occasions the control of road openings Bill. I was promised it would be published in the previous Dáil. Given the appalling state of the roads due to roadworks, will the Taoiseach tell us when he will publish the Bill?

The Taoiseach

The legislation proposes to strengthen the power of local authorities relating to road openings and statutory undertakings. The Bill is being drafted.