Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 22 Oct 2002

Vol. 555 No. 5

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 14 motion re referral to Select Committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the international agreement on educational co-operation between Ireland and the People's Republic of China; No. 15, motion re referral to Select Committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the international agreement on educational co-operation between Ireland and Malaysia; No. 1 the Data Protection (Amendment) Bill, 2002 – Second Stage; and No. 26, the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Bill, 2002 – Second Stage (resumed).

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. 15 and 16 should be decided without debate, and that Private Members' Business shall be No. 36, motion re organ retention and disposal.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal to deal with Nos. 14 and 15 without debate agreed to?

Mr. Gormley

No. We have already notified the Whip's office that we are opposed in principle to this agreement with China. It should not even be referred to the committee. In the apartheid era, we would never have considered concluding an agreement with South Africa so why are we concluding agreements with China given its appalling human rights record and that it has illegally occupied Tibet and suppressed the Tibetan people, leading to the exile of the Dalai Lama? The reason we are being asked to do so is contained in the briefing document which says that, in an era of globalisation, the agreement will help to promote Ireland. This House should set human rights above globalisation and markets.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with Nos. 14 and 15 be agreed to" put and declared carried.

Mr. Kenny

Last Thursday, RTE television screened one of the most devastating programmes ever seen in Irish homes. Having looked at a video of it this morning, as a Catholic and a father of young children I, like the rest of the population, was shocked and appalled by its revelations. The rape and abuse of children is a reprehensible and brutal destruction of childhood with consequences that last a lifetime. It is clear that the investigation which must take place cannot be carried out internally within the Catholic Church. Nobody should be above the law in this jurisdiction.

Will the Taoiseach say if the Government discussed the matter at the Cabinet meeting this morning? Can he inform us if any decision has been reached as to the nature of inquiry that must be carried out and, if it has been discussed, has the Government put in train the necessary order for such an investigation?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Does the Taoiseach agree that the primary role of the State in this matter is to ensure that those who commit offences against children are successfully prosecuted? There is a danger we could end up with an inquiry in each diocese, or so I read in this morning's papers. The State must focus on its business, which is bringing child abusers and anyone who may have colluded with them in suppressing the full facts to justice. In this context, what extra resources is it proposed to give the Garda Síochána and the courts to encourage victims to come forward and to ensure they are dealt with in a caring and compassionate manner and that cases can proceed with speed and efficiency?

Mr. Quinn

I share the concerns that the entire nation has expressed in recent years, re-enforced on Thursday by a powerful piece of public service broadcasting by RTE. Does the Taoiseach share the view that the Bermingham report represents a model of the way to proceed given that it has the endorsement, encouragement and support of those directly affected, namely the victims? While that report was of necessity confined to the Archdiocese of Ferns, perhaps the Government would, in concert with others, consider asking George Bermingham S.C., a former Member of this House, to extend his remit to the entire country. In the quickest time possible – perhaps four or five weeks – an interim report could be supplied by him to the Government so the roadmap could be clearly seen. Thereafter, a decision could be made by the House, armed with the information provided, as to whether a statutory inquiry is required.

The Taoiseach

This matter was discussed at Cabinet today. The Government has made some preliminary considerations which we will be spending more time reflecting on in the coming days.

Child sexual abuse is abhorrent, doubly so when those who perpetrate it are abusing a position of trust, which is why revulsion at clerical sex abuse runs so deep in the community, not just since last week's programme but on many issues in recent years. I want to make it clear that the law of the land applies to all irrespective of what status they hold. We have said that in relation to other issues in this House and I reiterate them today on this issue. I appeal to anyone who has information relating to clerical sex abuse to make it available to the Garda Síochána. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has discussed the general issues arising in recent days with the Deputy Commissioner of the Garda Síochána. The Garda has a duty to investigate in full any allegations of criminal wrongdoing and it is entitled to expect the full co-operation, within the law, of all citizens regardless of where they come from.

The Minister for Health and Children replied to Deputy Quinn's point and will now proceed with a non-statutory inquiry into the extent and handling of clerical sex abuse in the Diocese of Ferns arising from George Bermingham's report. That is being implemented with the agreement and co-operation of all the relevant parties. Regardless of recent events, we do not want to delay that in fairness to the victims who have worked extremely hard. My colleague, the Minister for Health and Children, will move on that issue today or tomorrow.

The Cabinet believes we should have further discussions on the gravity of the situation in the Dublin diocese. We need to reflect. While George Bermingham's inquiry is excellent, we believe that, when taken in its non-statutory form, it would be a good template for a national scheme. Mr. Bermingham has, as agreed by everyone, done an outstanding job and will not require that many months to complete it. Perhaps that will not be sufficient, so we need to spend some days in conjunction with the Attorney General, who is absent because of international business, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and my Government colleagues, looking at the gravity of the situation in Dublin and elsewhere. We will look at it closely over the next few days and decide how to move on it.

I emphasise three points. Anyone with any information on these matters should go to the Garda. The Minister and the Assistant Garda Commissioner have looked at, and the Government too will examine, what assistance or resources are needed. We will move forward on the Ferns inquiry and will come back shortly on the matter of Dublin and other locations.

Mr. Kenny

I am happy to hear the Taoiseach confirm that the law of the land will apply to every citizen in the State. I thank him for the broad reply on Government action arising from this. Many of the Catholic hierarchy who do their duty in an above board manner are equally horrified by the revelations of this programme. It is necessary that those who have never strayed from their true Christian and Catholic responsibilities are vindicated in the eyes of their flock. This is a watershed for the Catholic church.

Is the Taoiseach happy that in previous investigations no undue pressure was exerted by certain elements within the hierarchy on members of the Garda carrying out inquiries? Some newspaper reports have referred to the fact that the Taoiseach may have been contacted by victims of abuse. I assume the Taoiseach will have passed that information on to the Garda also. I endorse the Taoiseach's call to any Member of the House or any member of the public who has information about clerical sex abuse to convey that to the Garda. This is a matter of utmost concern and the full rigours of the law must be used to deal with every citizen or cleric involved so that life can proceed.

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputy Kenny for his supportive remarks on the action being taken by the Government. In the diocese of Ferns, the issues he has raised in regard to handling of the issue by the Garda and others, have been examined. That will be a part of the non-statutory investigation that will now continue over the next few months and we believe it will not take too long. I assure the House that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will act quickly with the Assistant Garda Commissioner to deal with the issue. Any information anyone has on this matter should be given to the Garda.

The Garda has made many successful prosecutions under the criminal prosecution system in recent years. I am confident it will deal as efficiently with any other cases where it is given the appropriate information and that it will bring forward criminal prosecutions.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

On the subject of inquiries and tribunals can the Taoiseach explain how he can justify the Government's decision to award fee rises up to €800 per day to lawyers engaged in the Flood and Moriarty tribunals? This will cost taxpayers millions given the projected run of both tribunals. Does the Taoiseach agree that this type of profiteering undermines the good work being done by tribunals and threatens to undermine public confidence in the process? Is it not bizarre that such gross fee rises can be granted to top lawyers while, at the same time, the Government is considering again imposing fees for third level education? What is the Government's real intention in regard to third level fees and their threatened reintroduction?

Mr. Kenny

Has the Taoiseach considered referring this matter to the Comptroller and Auditor General for an evaluation of the work carried out by those members who are now to receive a 50% increase? Does he consider there is a possible conflict of interest when the leader of the Bar sits at the Cabinet table where this matter has to be approved? Will this have implications for discussions on the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness and on the benchmarking report which has yet to be decided upon?

Mr. Quinn

Was the Taoiseach consulted by the Attorney General on this matter and did the Minister for Finance bring to his attention that it was proposed? From my experience, and no doubt from the Taoiseach's experience as a former Minister for Finance, he knows that the fixing of this cartel starts with the Attorney General who is half way between leaving the Bar as a Senior Counsel and proceeding to the Bench as a judge. The triangle is closed off between the adjudicating judge who decides to award costs, the Attorney General who fixes the price and the coterie of Senior Counsels who get the jobs. Was the Taoiseach consulted in this instance by the Minister for Finance? Do these increases fit squarely with other reductions in costs and other "adjustments" that have been made recently by the Cabinet?

The Taoiseach

I was consulted and was aware that discussions were taking place between the Attorney General and the Department of Finance. Fees in the Morris tribunal were recently assessed at the prevailing rates. They were set by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform with the consent of the Department of Finance. Fees for the Moriarty and Flood tribunals were set some time ago with the consent of the Minister for Finance. They are the prevailing rates.

Mr. Howlin

Teachers would be delighted to hear about prevailing rates.

The Taoiseach

At the time they were set in 1997 it was expected to finish by a certain time. Having answered so many questions in the House about co-operation with tribunals it is a good idea to continue to do so.

Mr. Rabbitte

It is nothing to do with co-operation.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Taoiseach has not responded to the central focus or to my supplementary question. There are increases of €800 per day to certain lawyers but this brings the daily rate for some up to €2,500 per day. These are incredible figures that will shock people across the board. Does the Taoiseach not agree that such returns for individuals undermine the tribunal process and place public confidence in the system in jeopardy? The Taoiseach did not address the addendum to the question at all. Again, on behalf of many concerned families who have noted the signposting by Government spokespersons of a possible revisitation of the imposition of fees for third level education, will the Taoiseach tell the House what the Government's intentions are in that regard?

The Taoiseach

The Minister has set up a review to see if there is a way within present resources to assist those less well off in society or those from disadvantaged areas to get into college. He wants to see they are assisted through maintenance grants or fees so that they can get an education, as against other members of society who are in a better position. He is examining that issue and no decision has been made on it.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Law Library should give a few bursaries to help a few thousand kids get an education.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach speak without interruption.

The Taoiseach

The fees have been reviewed a number of times in recent years. There are a number of tribunals but, fortunately or unfortunately, there is a rate which must be paid to assist people to get to the end of all that this House has passed. Otherwise, we will not get to the end of it. It would be another matter were I to say that people working in the tribunals would not be available for this work.

Mr. Quinn

For the past few years it has been the practice of the Government to publish hospital waiting lists twice a year. The waiting lists for the previous six months would be published in March and September. Is the Taoiseach aware there has been a change in this practice recently? A question to the Minister for Health and Children asked by my colleague, Deputy McManus, instead of obtaining data for the latest date for which figures were available, was answered using the latest date for which figures had been published. Normally the figures for hospital waiting lists for the previous six months are available in September indicating if there has been a reduction or increase or if they have stayed the same. For some inexplicable, or perhaps explicable, reason, that practice has changed. Can I take it from the Taoiseach that the information published in the Cork Evening Echo of a 26% increase in hospital waiting lists for the first six months of the year is perhaps the reason the national figures have not been published?

Mr. Kenny

Is the Taoiseach aware of a scandalous and costly waste of materials in some hospital theatres where the materials laid out for operations on a given day may not be used by a surgeon who may request to use another product? This is a scandalous waste, is extremely costly and has a bearing on the waiting lists to which Deputy Quinn referred. A serious investigation should be conducted into this.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It is my belief that there is a growing waiting list problem. People are waiting for hospital procedures as never before.

An Ceann Comhairle

A question, please.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

My question to the Taoiseach reflects on this issue of hospital waiting lists. Some people are waiting for hospitals. In recent weeks—

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ó Caoláin should follow the example shown by previous speakers.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I am asking a question and it is one I expect the Ceann Comhairle will be concerned to hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am concerned that we adhere to Standing Orders. The Deputy should ask a question.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

In recent weeks people have been protesting at the gates to the Department of the Taoiseach about the loss of critical services in Monaghan General Hospital.

An Ceann Comhairle

A question please.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Will the Taoiseach meet a representative number from that group who have been protesting for the past three weeks or more in all weather conditions, and will he meet the delegation representative of the opinion in County Monaghan, as requested by our county council recently?

The Taoiseach

I do not have the date for the release of the next set of figures. Deputy Quinn is correct to say they are released a number of times a year.

Ms O. Mitchell

Only once this year.

The Taoiseach

I have the figures from March 2002 for the previous period, which at 25,000 was a 5% decrease on March 2001.

Mr. Howlin

Where are the September figures?

Mr. R. Bruton

Is this what the Taoiseach means by eliminating waiting lists?

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption.

The Taoiseach

Cardiac surgery saw a decrease of 41%; ear, nose and throat procedures a decrease of 24%—

Mr. Howlin

Where are the September figures?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Howlin, these are leaders' questions.

The Taoiseach

—and orthopaedic procedures a decrease of 7%. Procedures conducted from waiting lists comprise 1.7% of hospital activity. I say that to remind the House again.

Mr. Howlin

Where are the September figures?

Ms McManus

These figures are seven months old. What is the Taoiseach hiding?

The Taoiseach

The treatment purchase fund will be used to purchase treatments for public patients. I am sure when the next figures come out, they will be published. They are always published.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Will the Taoiseach meet the representatives of the Monaghan General Hospital group?

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow Deputy Quinn to speak without interruption.

Mr. Quinn

There has clearly been a departure from the practice of publishing figures and statistics on a bi-annual basis. The House and State cannot function if we do not have access to objective and verifiable data upon which we can construct arguments to congratulate ourselves or on which the Government should be held to account. Can the Taoiseach indicate if there is anything sinister in the fact that the answer to my colleague's question departs from the normal previous practice and is he aware of it?

If he cannot give us a convincing answer to that concise question, how do we hold him and his party to account when, on 6 May in the presence of the then Minister for Health and Children he said hospital waiting lists would be abolished within two years? I remind him that he has exactly 562 days left in which to achieve that objective. If he, and only he, deliberately withholds from the rest of us the facts on hospital waiting lists, he is making a farce of this democracy.

The Taoiseach

I am sure if the Deputies table questions, the information will be provided.

Ms O. Mitchell

No it will not. We have tried.

The Taoiseach

It should be acknowledged that a substantial amount of money, almost €44 million—

Mr. Howlin

Where are the September figures?

The Taoiseach

—has been invested in reducing waiting lists, not to speak of the enormous throughput we have had in recent years.

Mr. Howlin

Where are the September figures?

The Taoiseach

I am sure they will be published whenever the Minister gets to it. Waiting lists have been reduced substantially in a number of areas where money was invested for priority purposes.

Mr. Howlin

We do not know. We do not have the figures.

Mr. Naughten

Given that Iarnród Éireann is reviewing its passenger and freight services with a view to closing services and lines, when will we see the Transport (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill which allows CIE to borrow? If freight is transferred to the roads, it will increase carnage on them. It is important this decision of Iarnród Éireann is overturned.

The Taoiseach

The Transport (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill to increase the borrowing limits for CIE and other matters will be taken next year.

Mr. Boyle

Is the same sense of urgency being attached to bringing forward the Public Service Management (Recruitment and Appointments) Bill given that public service recruitment has slowed to a trickle?

The Taoiseach

It will be another year before the Public Service Management (Recruitment and Appointments) Bill will be before the House.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is the man centrally involved in the Government's response to the clerical abuse scandal.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should ask a question on legislation.

Mr. Rabbitte

Why did you, a Cheann Comhairle, rule out the special notice question to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform? It seems bizarre.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have already ruled on that.

Mr. Rabbitte

How could you decide that such a matter was not urgent?

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not a matter to be debated in the House. If you have a problem with it, you can call to my office and I will be glad to discuss it with you. I call Deputy Hayes.

Mr. Rabbitte

It is odd in the extreme that you should deny the House the opportunity—

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not appropriate to comment on it here. I call Deputy Hayes.

Mr. Rabbitte

—to deal on a question and answer basis with the most critical issue being discussed in every town, city and village.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has ruled on the matter.

Mr. Rabbitte

You ought to give an explanation.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Hayes.

Mr. Rabbitte

Who are you covering for, a Cheann Comhairle?

An Ceann Comhairle

You should withdraw that remark and the implication that the Chair is covering for someone.

Mr. Rabbitte

What is the answer to it?

An Ceann Comhairle

You should withdraw the remark.

Mr. Rabbitte

What is the answer?

An Ceann Comhairle

Withdraw the remark, Deputy. Do you wish to leave the House?

Mr. Rabbitte

The entire country wants to know—

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not appropriate to cast a reflection on the Chair.

Mr. Rabbitte

—the Minister's reply and you will not give him the opportunity to answer questions.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Rabbitte, will you resume your seat? Will you withdraw the remark casting a reflection on the Chair?

Mr. Rabbitte

I asked you a question.

An Ceann Comhairle

You should withdraw the remark or leave the House.

Mr. Quinn

Should he withdraw the question or the inference?

An Ceann Comhairle

He should withdraw the inference.

Mr. Rabbitte

It was not a remark, it was a question.

An Ceann Comhairle

Withdraw the inference. The Deputy knows the answer to the question.

Mr. Rabbitte

I withdraw the inference.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you. I call Deputy Hayes.

Mr. Hayes

Will the Taoiseach urge the Minister for Agriculture and Food to intervene in the dispute between factories and farmers?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business. The Deputy should ask a question related to the Order of Business.

Mr. Hayes

Are there any proposals to bring legislation before this House to control the way factories are ripping off farmers?

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no legislation promised.

Mr. Durkan

The Minister will promise it.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

In view of the confusion created and the limbo in which families now find themselves as a result of the Supreme Court decision two weeks ago, where interim barring orders were found to be unconstitutional, has the legal opinion regarding what steps can be taken to redress this been received and if so—

An Ceann Comhairle

Have you a question appropriate to legislation?

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

This is appropriate to legislation. If so, when are we likely to see legislation that will clarify this issue?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is referring to a judgment from about two weeks ago. The matter is being urgently discussed by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Attorney General to examine the best course of action. Perhaps it will need legislation, but they have not come to a decision yet.

Ms O'Sullivan

We have just heard about huge sums of money being paid to members of the legal profession out of public funds, yet there does not seem to be enough public funds for the health service employers to enter into meaningful negotiations with the INO in relation to nurses who look after people with intellectual disabilities.

An Ceann Comhairle

Do you have a question on legislation?

Ms O'Sullivan

In view of the fact that there does not appear to be money to pay these nurses and that people may be sent home, will the Taoiseach again consider bringing forward the disabilities legislation to this term so that the rights of people with disabilities, including those with intellectual disabilities, can be addressed before they are sent home again?

The Taoiseach

As I stated last week, the legislation is being prepared. A consultation process is under way. It is a priority, but it is unlikely the legislation will be ready until next year.

Ms O'Sullivan

There will be a crisis before that.

Mr. Timmins

On a point of order, earlier in the House the Taoiseach—

An Ceann Comhairle

This should be appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Timmins

The Taoiseach stated he had been briefed on transcripts of conversations between him and the British Prime Minister.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Timmins

It is important that he outline if the transcript—

An Ceann Comhairle

It may well be important, but you will have to find another way to raise it. You are out of order.

Mr. Timmins

Can you advise me how I might raise it, given that the Taoiseach did not answer it during Question Time? I am looking for advice.

An Ceann Comhairle

You can come to my office and we would be glad to advise you.

Mr. Timmins

How can we be sure the telephone system in this House is above reproach?

An Ceann Comhairle

You are out of order and you are being disorderly in the House.

Mr. Timmins

This is a very important matter and maybe the Taoiseach would like to answer it. We should not compromise security. The Taoiseach knows where they originated and the perpetrators also know.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

Mr. Timmins

It is a very serious matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

You can submit a parliamentary question on the matter.

Mr. Timmins

The Taoiseach might want to answer it.

Mr. Quinn

On this matter, Sir—

An Ceann Comhairle

We are not dealing with this matter now. I have called Deputy Deenihan on a question.

Mr. Quinn

If I may, Sir, as the person charged with protecting the interests of Members of this House, you might have regard to the substance of the query raised and perhaps—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should submit a parliamentary question on the matter.

Mr. Quinn

I am addressing you, Sir. Maybe the Committee on Procedure and Privileges might consider the security of our system in the light of what we have heard.

Mr. G. Mitchell

On a point of order, I tried to raise this matter at Question Time, but I got no response.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order. We are not having a debate on the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Timmins

I think the Taoiseach wants to respond.

Mr. Durkan

On the same issue, on a point of order—

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not taking a point of order on it.

Mr. Durkan

I know you do not want to accept a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are moving on to the next business. If you do not want to allow your colleague Deputy Deenihan to ask a question—

Mr. Durkan

A serious issue has been raised in relation to the security of the House, the answer to which the Taoiseach has in his possession.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Durkan

The Taoiseach has an opportunity to answer the question now.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Quinn

To whom should a question be submitted?

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

When the Chair is on its feet, the Deputy should resume his seat.

Mr. Timmins

Do you advise we use our phones in future?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach wants to speak.

The Taoiseach

If it assists and is not a precedent – I trust it is not a precedent—

Mr. Quinn

Nobody is taking it as such.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

There were not many Deputies in the House earlier when I said there potentially may be criminal prosecutions relating to some of these matters. I was asked where these transcripts were found. I said I did not see them but I was informed by those whom I would believe. During the searches in Belfast papers were found some of which were relevant to transcripts that would probably have emanated from the Northern Ireland Office. I am not suggesting they emanated from this House.

Mr. Deenihan

In view of the uncertainty and confusion surrounding the provision of a stadium for soccer and rugby, will the Abbotstown Sports Centre Authority Bill, which was listed in section A of the Government legislation programme and promised for introduction before Christmas, be scrapped or will it be introduced before Christmas?

Mr. McCormack

Or will the Government give away the site?

The Taoiseach

That Bill is due during this session.

Ms McManus

Can the Taoiseach ensure that time will be provided for us to debate the proposed inquiry into child sex abuse in the diocese of Ferns? He has stated that the Minister for Health and Children will be announcing this in the next day or two. Can he ensure the debate on such an important matter will be held in this House? Will the interim Bermingham report be published since it is in the public interest?

The Taoiseach

There is no legislation. It is a non-statutory inquiry.

Mr. Howlin

Will it be debated?

The Taoiseach

Yes, it will be debated here.

Mr. Quinn

Will the Taoiseach publish the report?

The Taoiseach

I am not sure if the report can be published because it feeds into the next stage of the investigation and it may not be appropriate.

Mr. Crawford

When will the Charities Bill come before the House to allow us discuss our level of charity towards the Third World? In light of the abuse of alcohol especially among our young people, when will the Intoxicating Liquor Bill come before the House to allow us to discuss how we can control the distribution of alcohol to young people who are suffering themselves as well as causing suffering to others?

The Taoiseach

The Charities Bill to reform the law relating to the administration and regulation of charities along the lines of the Costello committee report on fundraising will be due in the session after Christmas. I do not have a date for the Intoxicating Liquor Bill.

Mr. Kehoe

As outlined in today's newspapers, the freight service to the south east will be cut back. When will the Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill be brought to the House?

The Taoiseach

Preliminary work on the Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill is under way so it will be some time before it is ready.

Mr. Durkan

By way of other information on that question. During the course of that Bill will it be possible to determine who has responsibility for traffic in this city? Is it the Minister for Transport or is it some other unseen gremlin who is now seizing the traffic in such a way that we can neither get in or out of the city?