Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Nov 2002

Vol. 556 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 29 – motion re Lindsay tribunal report – resumed; No. 4 – Private Security Services Bill, 2001 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage; and No. 30 – Statements on the European Council Meeting, Brussels, to be taken immediately following the announcement of Matters on the Adjournment under Standing Order 21 and the order shall resume thereafter.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the resumed proceedings on No. 29 shall be taken today and shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. The following arrangements shall apply in relation to the proceedings on No. 30: the statements shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 60 minutes and shall be confined to the Taoiseach and the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, and shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; and immediately following the statements, the Minister for Foreign Affairs shall take questions for a period not exceeding 20 minutes. Private Members' business shall be No. 40, motion re registration charge for third level students, resumed, to conclude at 8.30 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 29, arrangements in relation to the motion re the Lindsay tribunal, agreed to?

Mr. Sargent

Before agreeing to No. 29, may I ask the Taoiseach if he will give an assurance that there will not be any premature press releases in relation to this matter before the debate is concluded following yesterday's—

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise.

Mr. Sargent

It does arise. An hour before the debate on the Supplementary Estimates was concluded and the Dáil passed them, there was a press release from the Government indicating it was going to provide €12.48 million for IFI closure related matters and a handout of €32 million. I welcome this announcement but it should not have been done before the debate concluded.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are you opposing this proposal, Deputy?

Mr. Sargent

I am looking for an assurance there will not be a similar stunt pulled this time.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 29 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 30, Statements on the European Council meeting, agreed to? Agreed.

Mr. R. Bruton

A Cheann Comhairle, it would have come to your notice that the Ombudsman has taken the very serious step of laying a report before the House today in relation to the failure of the Revenue to refund to two widows who received payments—

An Ceann Comhairle

A question appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. R. Bruton

The Ombudsman has indicated that this is unprecedented, that it represents—

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy, I would prefer if you asked a question.

Mr. R. Bruton

This is a report by the Ombudsman.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, but do you have a question appropriate to the Order of Business?

Mr. R. Bruton

Let me explain before the Taoiseach can know whether he will accede to my request.

An Ceann Comhairle

You are making a Second Stage speech on the report.

Mr. R. Bruton

What I want is a debate on this matter because the Ombudsman has drawn to our attention the abuse of the powers by the Revenue Commissioners—

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a matter for the Whips. I call Deputy Gilmore.

Mr. R. Bruton

—and the failure by the Minister for Finance to provide a system whereby the people who are over-charged for tax get refunds and interest on the money.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, a decision on a debate on that matter can be decided by the Whips. I call Deputy Gilmore.

Mr. R. Bruton

A Cheann Comhairle, on a point of order, the Ombudsman is accountable directly to this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, you are making a Second Stage speech on the report.

Mr. R. Bruton

This is not a Second Stage speech. We are entitled to raise it when the Ombudsman brought to our attention the abuse by an agent of the Dáil—

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes. You have brought it to the attention to the House and the Chair has ruled that it is a matter for the Whips.

Mr. R. Bruton

With respect, we need to hear from the Government on this matter. We cannot just let this pass.

An Ceann Comhairle

If you want the matter debated in the House it is a matter for the Whips to decide.

Mr. Durkan

A Cheann Comhairle, can we get an answer?

Mr. R. Bruton

We need to get an indication from the Government side.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is an appropriate issue for leaders' questions—

Mr. R. Bruton

This is unprecedented.

An Ceann Comhairle

—or you can submit a parliamentary question. Deputy Gilmore.

Mr. R. Bruton

The Ombudsman has sent an unprecedented report to this House and it is not acceptable for the Taoiseach and the Minister to Finance to sit silently while their own agents are abusing vulnerable sections of our community.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy Bruton, you are out of order. I would ask you to resume your seat.

Mr. R. Bruton

It is not acceptable.

An Ceann Comhairle

You know the Standing Orders. I call Deputy Gilmore.

Mr. Durkan

The Taoiseach wants to reply.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach cannot be out of order any more than Deputy Bruton.

Mr. R. Bruton

A Cheann Comhairle, the Taoiseach wants to reply.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gilmore.

Mr. Durkan

The Taoiseach wants to reply.

Mr. Gilmore

The only local government legislation on the legislative programme is the Local Government (Rates) Bill, which is to be published in 2003. At what end of 2003 will that Bill be published? Is it intended in that Bill to introduce the amending legislation to abolish the dual mandate for Deputies serving on local authorities?

The Taoiseach

The Local Government (Rates) Bill, which has 30 heads, will standardise, modernise, streamline and consolidate rating. The heads are not ready yet and it will be published next year.

Mr. Gilmore

Is that the rate of attrition of Fianna Fáil Deputies?

Mr. Healy

Item No. 6 on the legislative programme is the Environmental Protection Agency (Amendment) Bill. In view of the widespread foul odours emanating from local authority waste water treatment plants, will this legislation be introduced shortly and will it cover that situation? Will the EPA be given control of this matter?

The Taoiseach

The Environmental Protection Agency (Amendment) Bill, which has 75 heads, will be presented in the House shortly.

Mr. Stagg

May I raise a point of order? A Cheann Comhairle, I refer to your earlier decision on the matter raised by Deputy Richard Bruton that it would be decided by the Whips. The Government may ask the Government Whip to bring a matter to the attention of the Whips but the Government and not the Whips decides the Order of this House. Opposition Whips may make arguments but the Government Whip makes the decision on behalf of the Government.

Mr. Kenny

Deputy Hanafin wants this matter discussed.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is the first port of call for requests—

Mr. Stagg

It would be if it were referred by the Taoiseach, who makes the decision, to the Whips but not by the Chair. The Chair should not refer matters to the Whips.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is not referring the matter to the Whips. There is long-standing precedent in this House that the Whips are the first port of call for such a request.

The Taoiseach has made the point that the Whips may look at it.

Mr. R. Bruton

On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle. I have been in this House for 20 years and frequently I have seen debates being requested and the Taoiseach of the day responding either "Yea" or "Nay". Here we have an extraordinary situation where the Ombudsman is reporting directly to the Dáil on an extraordinary abuse of power, as he sees it—

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter can be raised with the Whips.

Mr. R. Bruton

—and you will not allow the Taoiseach to respond.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a matter for the Whips. If the Whips bring it up the time of the House will be used to discuss it.

Mr. R. Bruton

It is a matter for the Taoiseach and the Government. These are agents of the Government.

Mr. G. Mitchell

As the Taoiseach has, apparently, a particular familiarity with the trees of north County Dublin—

Mr. Kenny

Some of them.

Mr. G. Mitchell

—when will the promised national monuments Bill be brought before the House and will we be given an opportunity to protect those trees, particularly the trees on O'Connell Street, which are being threatened and some of which are 100 years old?

An Ceann Comhairle

Do you have a question on promised legislation, Deputy? I call Deputy Michael D. Higgins.

Mr. G. Mitchell

My question referred to the national monuments Bill. Some of these trees have been there for 100 years and many may have the Taoiseach's fingerprints on them.

The Taoiseach

The national monuments Bill has 86 heads. The Bill will be available next year. For once, I agree with Deputy Mitchell.

Mr. Kenny

He is not waffling this time.

Mr. M. Higgins

The Minister for Foreign Affairs is due to answer questions on this day week. Last week, when we discussed the present position in relation to a resolution before the Security Council the text was not available. The Mexican Foreign Minister has indicated that agreement has been reached on a text to be put to the Security Council. Will the text be made available in the Oireachtas Library? If so, will the House have an opportunity to debate it before a vote is taken at the Security Council? It may be too late to do so next week.

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter has been accepted for debate on the Adjournment of the House tonight.

Mr. Quinn

Do the Iraqis know?

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Taoiseach wish to comment?

Mr. M. Higgins

I am interested in the Taoiseach's reply, particularly to the first part of my question. Is there an agreed text and when will it be available to those who may wish to comment on it?

The Taoiseach

I understand there will be an agreed text today. I will ask the Minister to make it available in the Oireachtas Library. Perhaps it would be more convenient to give it to the spokespersons.

Mr. Sargent

Given that the national monuments Bill will not be enacted soon, may I ask the Taoiseach about the Criminal Justice (Garda Powers) Bill? People, like Deputy Mitchell, who will be protecting the trees in O'Connell Street will not want to be beaten up by the gardaí, as happened at the reclaim the streets party.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, do you have an appropriate question?

Mr. Sargent

When will the Criminal Justice (Garda Powers) Bill be brought forward to ensure that the gardaí are restrained from any such action?

The Taoiseach

The Bill is being drafted, the heads have been approved and the Bill will be ready late next year.

Ms O. Mitchell

In view of the urgent need for 3,000 additional hospital beds and additional consultants, when will legislation to set up the Irish hospitals agency be brought forward? The Government's health strategy includes a promise that the agency would be in place by the end of this year but the legislation does not appear in the Government's legislative programme. Has the Government forgotten about it?

The Taoiseach

I do not have a date for that legislation. I advise the Deputy to put down a question to the Minister.

Mr. Hogan

When will the Companies (Audit and Accountancy) (Amendment Bill be presented to the Dáil?

The Taoiseach

It will be taken in this session. I hope it will be prior to Christmas.

Mr. Allen

Given that we have heard and read so much about the ban on the dual mandate, will the Taoiseach amend the Local Government Bill to deal with it?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach has already dealt with queries regarding the Local Government Bill.

Mr. Allen

I asked this question yesterday. Can I have a straight answer?

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Pat Rabbitte.

Mr. Allen

Why am I being ignored, a Cheann Comhairle?

An Ceann Comhairle

Your question is out of order. The Taoiseach has already answered it.

Mr. Allen

The Taoiseach's backbenchers are discussing the matter on the radio and commenting on it in the newspapers, yet I cannot ask this question.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is legislation promised?

The Taoiseach

It is the same answer as yesterday. No legislation is promised.

Mr. Durkan

So nothing is to happen at all.

The Taoiseach

Are the Deputies disappointed now?

Mr. Allen

Is no legislation promised?

The Taoiseach

Is the Deputy still in favour?

Mr. Allen

Always, but the Taoiseach knows his own mind on it.

The Taoiseach

Absolutely.

Mr. Allen

Can I not get a straight answer to a straight question?

An Ceann Comhairle

You must find another way of raising the matter. It is not appropriate to the Order of Business. I suggest you put down a parliamentary question.

Mr. Rabbitte

Now that that matter is clear, may I ask a question? Following the initiation of talks on a new social contract does the Taoiseach intend to bring forward legislation to amend the Redundancy Payments Acts?

The Taoiseach

On the other side of an agreement the legislation would have to be drafted. At this stage there is a commitment to change the legislation but the content of that legislation is the subject of discussion within the social partnership talks.

Mr. R. Bruton

A revenue Bill is promised to update and re-organise the powers of the Revenue Commissioners. When will that Bill be brought before the House so that we can debate the Ombudsman's report, which shows extraordinary abuse of powers by the Revenue Commissioners?

The Taoiseach

It is not possible to indicate at this stage when the Bill will be introduced. The Bill will update the legislative basis of the Revenue Commissioners.

Mr. R. Bruton

The matter is urgent.

Mr. Durkan

It has to be possible.