I wish to give the remainder of my time to Deputy Connaughton.
Licensing of Indoor Events Bill, 2001: Second Stage (Resumed).
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
Deputy Connaughton has eight minutes.
I am pleased to have an opportunity to say a few words about this important Bill.
While the horrific tragedy at Hillsborough in 1998 happened outdoors, it has been etched ever since in the memory of everyone who saw it. Suddenly controlling where people meet for recreational purposes has become a huge source of worry for people, including all the authorities. This Bill provides for the licensing of indoor events and, as such, we should consider the main provisions of the legislation.
Many speakers referred to the fact that because there is a greater amount of leisure time and a greater amount of money available, particularly to young people, naturally a greater number of indoor and outdoor events are being organised for a variety of reasons. It is worth mentioning that the Bill is all-embracing and does not just relate to young people. We normally tend to think there is greater danger and uncontrolled organisation where young people congregate. We must, however, ensure there are greater safety standards for the elderly because they would have particular problems should anything happen at an organised indoor event. We must legislate in every way possible to minimise risk at events.
I have spent many years, as have many other Deputies, organising large and small events. I am pleased the Bill is not confined to an upper limit on audiences. There was mention of audiences of not more than 2,000. In my estimation the Bill would fail if it maintained that level. There is often more risk attached to a badly organised or badly lit disco or, for instance, in an area which would be more suited to having 300 rather than 600 on the premises. Such an event would be a death trap. Against that background, it is important that we do not stick to numbers in the Bill.
The Minister said earlier that regulations must be put in place whereby young, old and middle aged people who congregate for leisure pursuits, whether social or educational, will at the end of the night be able to leave the premises safely and in comfort. In other words, we are trying to replicate the safety aspects of their own homes when they congregate in a public place of recreation. While the Bill is wide ranging, it contains a number of potential flaws. The fire service seems to be the lead authority. There is nothing wrong with that.
However, the crucial question suggested by this Bill is what actually happens, irrespective of the age group involved, if there is a calamity at an organised function in the middle of the night. Who blows the whistle? That is when accidents happen, not when all the authorities are around. One never sees an accident in a place containing five or six ambulances, gardaí and so on. They do not happen then. People depend on the skills of the organisers and the controls put on these indoor events when the statutory authorities are not there. For example, the fire authority in County Galway is terribly underfunded and it is becoming difficult for its members to carry out their statutory duties. Better machinery, better training and so on, about all of which the Minister knows, should be provided for the fire service in tandem with this Bill. A huge responsibility is being put on the fire service. It is as good an organisation as any other, but if it is to have a meaningful input into this, somebody must realise that in return for the sort of responsibility they are taking on there should be a parallel system of increased funding and investment.
As I said earlier, I welcome the fact that this is not a killjoy Bill. We must strike a balance and allow people to do what one would normally expect them to do. There would not be much point in expecting 500 or 1,000 people under 21 to sit down and be nice. Middle-aged people conduct themselves differently. I am amazed at how the organisers of Slane – an outdoor event – are successfully able to manage 60,000 to 80,000 people.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
The Deputy must conclude.
I was only getting into my stride. If you saw me going to Slane, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, we would surely have a problem. Several members of my family are enthusiastic fans of that event. I welcome the Bill but the Minister must do a lot of thinking about the investment that will be needed in parallel with it to ensure the statutory authorities can do what they are supposed to do.
The safety of the public in places of assembly is primarily the responsibility of those who organise the event and those who administer or own the venue in which it is held. This arises from the common law duty of care owed by those in charge of the venue to the patrons who pay to attend the event. It is the joint responsibility of the venue management and the promoter to ensure standards and requirements for safety are strictly observed before, during and after the event. This is the background to the legislation under discussion. Nevertheless, this is not enough to ensure public safety at indoor events. The State is obliged to intervene in this important matter and many Acts are now in place to ensure the public is protected on these occasions.
I regret that this legislation has been a long time coming. It arises from the Hamilton report on crowd control, which was issued in 1990 following the Hillsborough football stadium tragedy in 1989, which is 12 years ago. Public safety and crowd control are literally matters of life and death. We cannot underestimate the importance of this. Too many tragedies have occurred as a result of inadequate attention being paid to crowd control problems. Along with the Hillsborough tragedy in 1989, we have had the Heysel stadium tragedy and the Bradford City fire. There have been other examples closer to home. I have monitored this situation for the last ten years and have observed problems on occasion in Lansdowne Road, Tolka Park and Croke Park in Dublin. Even this year, problems emerged at the All-Ireland Football Final in Croke Park between Armagh and Kerry when too many fans invaded the pitch after the final whistle. Deaths and injuries have occurred as a result of these failures and the challenge now is to eliminate such risks in the future.
There are many reasons for this Bill's delay and the main one is that a number of Departments have responsibility for the issues involved. I do not believe that a lack of interest in public safety and crowd control is the reason for the delay. I welcome the fact that this Bill is now being taken in the Dáil and I hope it has a speedy passage. Yesterday I listened to the Taoiseach expressing his concerns about the amount of time being given by this House to legislation. He is of the view that we need to improve this and ensure that legislation is given a primary role in this House and in our debates generally.
Since the publication of the Hamilton report in 1990, codes of practice for safety at sports grounds and outdoor pop concerts have been drawn up. For a time, these were relied on for indoor pop concerts too. However, things have changed since then. In May 1996 a young girl from Shanagarry, County Cork, was crushed to death at the Smashing Pumpkins concert in the Point Theatre. Her untimely death was a tragedy and highlighted the inadequacies of the measures in place concerning indoor pop concerts. At her inquest at the Coroner's Court in October 1996, the jury called for a code of practice for indoor concerts and other musical events. This has since been published and this Bill now gives legislative backing to these codes of practice, which is to be welcomed. The Bill is a further important development in improving safety at such events.
Regarding sections 4 and 5, what types of events will be covered by the regulations to be drawn up by the Department? In his Second Stage speech the Minister gave a broad definition of what constitutes an indoor event but we need to be more specific. Many types of events should be covered apart from pop concerts. Another example brought to my attention was the Baby & Kids show in the RDS in April 1996. Those of us with young children will appreciate the importance of Barney the dinosaur in the lives of our very young people. Problems in relation to crowd control emerged at that show and it is not good enough that this should occur when mothers with young children are attending a performance. A potentially serious situation developed on the day but luckily it did not deteriorate to the point that people were injured. We need to be specific about the type of event which will be included in the regulations, though I assume events like those I have mentioned will be covered.
I also seek clarification of the position of venues like the Point Theatre, where pop concerts take place all year round. A music and singing licence under the Public Health (Amendment) Act, 1890, and a public dancing licence under the Public Dance Halls Act, 1935, are in force in respect of the Point. Will this new legislation apply to venues like that and will each particular performance need a licence from the fire authorities? I would welcome clarification as to how this Bill fits in with other Acts governing events like these. What is the situation regarding public houses where musical events take place almost on a nightly basis? This brings us back to the definition of numbers to be set out in regulations where the legislation applies. We must give some thought to that.
Why is there no provision in section 8 for third party appeals? Third party objectors such as local individuals or others with concerns about an application, for whatever reason, can play an important role in this process. The Minister should reconsider this ban. The public can get involved in the process under other legislation but in the interests of openness, transparency and accountability the public should be given the right to make their views known in relation to an application for a particular licence.
Fire prevention officers obviously play an important role when it comes to public safety and crowd control issues. Now we are discussing this issue we need to ask whether there are enough fire prevention officers in our local authorities. Do local authorities have enough staff in place to deal with these responsibilities? I would welcome the Minister's views on this matter. These issues are becoming increasingly complex and technical, while concerts and other such indoor events are becoming increasingly common. We must be particularly vigilant when it comes to the number of fire prevention officers employed by our local authorities. I hope the Department of the Environment and Local Government takes a hands-on approach to this issue, given its importance.
We have made a lot of progress since publication of the Stardust tribunal report and we have made great strides in implementing its many recommendations. However, we cannot just sit back and relax when it comes to these matters. We must be vigilant at all times. We must continue to monitor issues such as public safety and crowd control on an ongoing basis. We must keep abreast of new technology, new fashions, new practices and new attitudes among our young people. Every generation is different from the previous one and we need to be aware of changes in the behaviour of our young people. We must be aware of changes in the music they listen to as well as in their dancing and other practices. We must ensure our laws are updated and our codes of practice amended as necessary. These cannot be set in stone and the situation must be kept under ongoing review in association with all the various interested parties, including the Garda, health boards, local authorities and young people. Obviously it is not just young people who attend concerts. All members of the public do so but, as previous speakers said, we recognise that we have a special duty of care to young people for all sorts of reasons.
Sections 15 and 16 deal with prosecution of offences by fire authorities. Those are important sections as there is no point in having the legislation if it is not implemented and enforced. I know from experience that there is disappointment because the Director of Public Prosecutions did not press charges in relation to various tragedies. That brings the law into disrepute. In this case, the fire authorities will initiate prosecutions, which is welcome. Fire officers have the specialised knowledge to deal with these circumstances and they will be familiar with the events taking in place in their areas. They are the experts and I hope they use their powers to the maximum, as set out in this legislation, and that they will not be slow to act where there are clear breaches of the law. It is important that fire officers use the full powers at their discretion to ensure effective enforcement and to ensure the public can attend events in safety and without fear of injury or death.
I welcome the Bill. It is a long time in coming as it is 12 years since the publication of the Hamilton report. The Bill has been delayed for various reasons and we must now put the spotlight on how we do our work and process legislation. It is being debated and it will go a long way to ensure that pop concerts and other events are safe. I mentioned the tragedy in 1996 in the Point Depot and said that the family of the girl who died wanted to ensure that nothing like that ever happens again. There have been injuries since then and while that is unacceptable, the family will welcome this legislation. It is unfortunate that it took such an awful tragedy to bring forward a new code of practice but, perhaps, some good has come from it, although it was devastating for the family involved. I look forward to discussing the Bill on Committee Stage.
I welcome the principle behind this Bill but there are problems with some of its provisions and the approach it takes to public safety at indoor events. When we hear of disasters at indoor events abroad, such as the recent fire in a disco in Asia, it brings home to us with greater force the potential for danger when large numbers of people are gathered together. It is incumbent on the State to make provision and regulations so when people come together in large numbers they can be sure of their security. As other Deputies have said, we do not have to look to Asia for examples of terrible tragedy – the Stardust has been mentioned, and it is appropriate that we remember the victims of that awful tragedy and the many families who are still grieving.
When regulation fails, particularly fire regulation, and people die in such tragic and needless circumstances, we appreciate the great need for such regulation. We should salute those who work to keep us safe through insisting on proper fire regulations. We should salute the fire-fighters in our society who, at great risk to themselves, put their lives and health on the line for the safety of the public. Unfortunately, over the next 48 hours in Northern Ireland and Britain we will see the critical role played by fire-fighters in the negative sense, with the criminal situation whereby the Government and fire authorities in that jurisdiction have left fire-fighters there with no alternative but to take strike action. That is happening only 60 miles from the Dáil as a result of the authorities and Government who undervalue fire-fighters to such a degree that they have to take this action. I take this opportunity to express my solidarity with the fire-fighters in the North and Britain and I want to see an immediate end to the situation by the granting of their legitimate demands.
The explanatory memorandum accompanying the Bill states that it arises from the need to implement the recommendations of the report of the Hamilton committee on crowd control in relation to indoor concerts and the development of a code of practice for safety at indoor concerts. The Bill also includes other events.
The first step proposed is that the Minister prescribe any activity that, according to him, would require a licence and he will make regulations along those lines. We need more information than that. The Hamilton report referred to events with an attendance of over 2,000 but the Minister, in his own speech, encompassed events with an attendance of less than 2,000. It is incumbent on the Minister to be more definite with the Dáil as to what he has in mind. It is unsatisfactory that we do not have a clear idea about the content of the regulations or the thinking of the Minister and the Department with regard to numbers attending, the nature of events and the circumstances in which events would need a licence. I would like to hear the Minister come forward with information along those lines when he replies at the end of this debate. There is a provision that regulations would be laid before the Dáil but if they were unsuitable they would have to be negatived and that is unsatisfactory. The Minister should explain his plans in some detail.
Would events in local community halls be made the subject of a licence requirement under the regulations the Minister has in mind? We want absolute safety in such halls but we do not want needless bureaucracy that could make it difficult for voluntary community groups. Section 5(9)(c) requires the furnishing by the person applying for the licence of plans, a statement of safety procedures, documents and information to be submitted with an application for a licence. Safety must not be compromised but we want this to be done sensibly so it does not become a bureaucratic nightmare, especially if it relates to community events.
Section 5(9)(d) relates to the payment to the fire authority of such fees as may be prescribed for an application for a licence. If voluntary organisations, community organisations, community centres and so on need a licence the requirement for a fee should not be onerous. Anybody who deals with and assists community groups knows the nightmare that meeting insurance costs entails. I ask the Department to ensure that the level of fees for ordinary working class communities is not prohibitive in the event that the requirement for a licence would touch that particular activity. What happens the big fat cats, the greedy people, who organise big events of a musical nature where they rip off the youth is a different matter and they should be made to pay well.
Will the Minister clarify what precisely is meant by a "building"? The Bill gives it the meaning in the Fire Services Act, 1981. It defines a "building" as, "any building, structure or erection (whether permanent or temporary) of any kind or of any materials." That is slightly amended in the Bill to include parts of those buildings or structure. Unfortunately, due to the level of backup and research capacity afforded to Deputies it has not been possible for me to go into a thorough examination of all the regulations that apply across the board and the meanings of this. Will the Minister clarify if this relates entirely to events held under a roof or to events held in a sports ground or some kind of enclosure that is not covered?
The Bill also provides that the licence application be made to the fire authority. The way the Bill is proceeding to set these structures in train is highly unsatisfactory. Part 3 relates entirely to an amendment of the Fire Services Act, 1981, in various regards. We understand the necessity for watertight fire provisions and obviously the fire authority has a great responsibility, but the Bill purports to be much wider than that. It purports to relate to other issues of public safety even down to sanitary facilities, health facilities and so on. I do not understand why the fire authority would be given the responsibility to supervise the gamut and it is not satisfactory.
Section 20(2) provides that one fire authority may contract out this responsibility to another or bring in any person, other than a fire authority, to, presumably, supervise or be involved in drawing up the criteria or assessing the criteria for the grant of a licence. That is not a satisfactory way of dealing with the issue.
Section 6 (3) (b) allows for the provision of adequate measures and procedures for securing the safety of persons attending the indoor event; in other words, issues of crowd control and the design of buildings to avoid accidents. Expertise is needed in this area but it is not automatically within the fire authority. That would be a planning issue in one sense but even more so for people with experience in building design to say what can happen in crowds and how to minimise the risk of people being crushed or whatever. Instead of giving all responsibility to the fire authority a dedicated department in the local authority should be mandated to supervise this area. That dedicated department could call on a range of experienced people and agencies in regard to the various aspects that need to be covered, such as the fire authority, planners, health and safety and environmental officers and agencies outside the ambit of local government. Obviously that would require resources which should be provided by the Government to the local authorities who are quite short in terms of financing. That would be a more satisfactory way of approaching it and it would not impose an extra burden on the fire authority which it may not need. Saving us from fire is a heavy enough responsibility.
Section 6(3) (c) provides for: “the provision of adequate facilities for the health and welfare of persons attending the indoor event including the adequacy of sanitary facilities.” I welcome and wholeheartedly agree with that provision and hope it is implemented. I have had the experience, particularly after some All-Ireland finals, of attending at the hotel, usually a large hotel, of the team I was supporting—
Deputy Deenihan's.
— whether victorious or not to find thousands crowded in. Quite frankly, the sanitary provisions were not scandalous but an insult to the patrons who attended. In the particular establishment, and it happened in more than one, when one approached the sanitary area one was plunged in a lake of you know what and the most disgusting and foul conditions. This establishment was soaking up money by means of exorbitantly increased prices from the patrons and yet it was treating them in this way. I want to see that section of the Bill implemented. Treating patrons in such a way should be a reason for discontinuing a person's licence. It should be a requirement that the licensee spend some of that money and pay staff well to look after those facilities so that people can use them with dignity.
The Bill provides for the maintenance of public order as one of the criteria. This relates more to the Private Security Services Bill which we discussed yesterday. It entrenches my point about how the licence should be supervised overall. The Bill provides that the number of events can be determined in the licence. I am curious about that because in the event that planning permission was required, that is where the number of events would be laid down. I do not see why it would be included in this Bill.
Section 8 does not allow a third party appeal and I do not agree with this. There should be provision for a third party appeal because, although perhaps in a case where planning permission was granted, a new situation could arise after the first event was held. A third party – residents or any other person – might have an urgent need to approach the authority responsible for safety at these events and that should be provided for, even where a licence for an event is refused. An event that appeals to young people or which they feel is justified might be refused a licence, and they should have a right of appeal. Section 13 is amazing. It provides that no action can be taken against the authorities responsible for implementing the provisions of this Bill for any damage that arises out of the negligence of the authorities? Why should that be the case if there is negligence or a deliberate major systems failure by the State or an agency of the State. The people who suffer, especially if they are injured, may have recourse to insurance or other means, but I do not see why that should close the other road to them.
I welcome the principle of the Bill. Greed on the part of big business elements is rampant in many areas, involves large numbers of people and it should be controlled.
Dá bhrí sin, aontaím le prionsabal an Bhille. Nuair a tharlaíonn tragóidí cuireann sé in aigne dúinn chomh práinneach is atá sé go ndéanfaí rialacháin ar ócáidí a tharlaíonn ar an dtaobh istigh agus go mbeidís rialaithe agus smachtaithe i gceart. Nuair a thiocfaidh an tAire ar ais chugainn ag deireadh na Céime seo tá súil agam go dtabharfaidh sé freagraí ar na pointí cuimseacha atá curtha trasna agam féin agus ag Teachtaí eile.
I wish to share my time with Deputy John Curran.
Young people have rights when they attend music concerts and festivals. Conscientious venue managers, performers, promoters, medical professionals and security firms should respect those rights and work hard to make sure the concert experience is enjoyable and safe. Nevertheless, fans are often killed at rock concerts or festivals or hurt through no fault of their own. People may find themselves in poor or non-existent crowd safety environments at rock, rap or pop gigs that cause discomfort or worse. A conservative estimate would place the number of fans injured at shows in the past seven years at tens of thousands all over the world. Approximately 7,000 Woodstock '94 fans sought first aid alone. Unfortunately, the rock concert industry in general refuses to take the necessary action to make things better. In the US where rock and roll, rap, pop was born, there is not one concert industry crowd safety guideline, rule or standard for concert and festival events. Compare that with the planning that goes into professional sports events, parades, festivals and other public assembly events. Maybe that is why claims and law suits brought by injured US concert-goers are at historic levels.
Currently the brightest spots are in Britain and Ireland where co-operative efforts between Government safety professionals and rock concert industry members have resulted in workable, outdoor festival safety guidelines. Their efforts represent an impressive start. Nevertheless, more needs to be done. Concert-goers should be able to enjoy a concert in a safe environment. They deserve to be treated with respect by facility management, concert security, entertainers and promoters. They also need to be informed of the responsibilities of a ticket holder and of the concert facility's house rules prior to the purchase of a ticket, and to be notified in a timely manner of changes in the performance, door opening or other information that affects the safety and enjoyment of a concert. In 1996 a young girl aged 17 was killed in a festival seating-mosh pit crowd crush at a concert in Dublin. In 1997 a 16 year-old-girl was killed similarly at a Die Toten Hosen concert in Stuttgart, Germany. Simple safety precautions would have spared these and many other lives.
To date, the rock concert industry has done little to establish safety guidelines for a problem they have known to exist for years. Instead, the industry has pursued its usual approach to crowd safety problems by blaming fans for their injuries. However, music fans, a large segment of whom are minors, cannot be expected to be both spec tators and professional crowd safety managers at the same time. Entertainers, venue operators and promoters, as well as hired security have as their legal responsibility the establishment and preservation of a safe environment for patrons who attend their events.
The main provisions of the Bill state that a licence will be required for certain indoor events; the Minister can make regulations prescribing the class or classes of indoor events for which a licence is required and may specify the attendance number threshold above which a licence is required for indoor events; a fire authority will be able to impose conditions in the licence and will be required to have regard to codes of practice such as the code of practice for safety at indoor concerts; an applicant for a licence will have the right to appeal the fire authority's decision to the District Court; persons who organise, promote, hold or are in control of a building where such an event takes place without a licence or not in accordance with the conditions of a licence will be guilty of an offence; Ministers will be given a statutory power to issue codes of practice and notice of issue of such codes shall be published in Iris Oifigiúil; a duty of care on persons organising an event is given a statutory foundation; fire authorities will have a power to inspect indoor events when they are being organised and when they are in progress and will be required to maintain a register of decisions and notices served; and the fire authority can serve a notice stopping an indoor event or any preparations for an indoor event if they have reason to believe that the event is likely to occur without or in contravention of a condition of a licence.
I commend the Bill to the House. It is vital that the whole area of concert safety is regulated and that young people can attend a gig and enjoy themselves without their safety being put at risk.
I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill. I had some prepared notes but, having listened to some of the previous contributions, I will deviate from them slightly. It is true and also tragic that most safety legislation has come about as a result of a major disaster or accident. The previous speaker referred to an accident at the Point in 1996. Deputy Haughey referred to the Stardust and Hillsborough disasters leading to the Taylor report. It is timely that we are today addressing these issues.
Before I go into the detail of the Bill, I want to set it in context from my personal point of view. I am of an age, despite the fact that most of my colleagues probably do not believe it, to remember Dublin prior to the Stardust disaster. I was a frequent visitor to the Stardust and other venues around Dublin City, such as Toner's and McGonagles, where live music was popular. Venues such as the Stardust were used by many up-and-coming bands, including Thin Lizzy and U2. I accept there was an inquiry and improvements were made after the Stardust disaster and we should look at those. When improvements were made, people complained that the regulations were too stringent. Every pub and music venue in the country was visited by fire officers and many were forced to make alterations. There was a change in the use of fire retardant materials and exit routes had to be identified and illuminated. One of the key issues was that emergency exits had to be clearly marked and, most importantly, unlocked. It was a feature of the time that patrons would pay in at the front door, make their way to the emergency exit, open it and let others in free. That was quite common around Dublin and, at that time, the most obvious thing to do in some venues was to lock the doors with chains.
I have personal experience in this area. I am new to politics and, for the last 20 years, I have worked as a company director supplying audio visual equipment to a range of indoor events. The industry has changed significantly in that time. In the early days, safety, security and crowd control were rarely mentioned. Organisers and operators of events, particularly good ones, now look at these matters in meticulous detail. It is quite common for the better organisers to have safety officers who look at a range of issues, not just fire safety but also how venues are set out from car parking to other matters.
Deputy Joe Higgins mentioned fat cats and big operators. Some of them provide an excellent service and show great attention to detail, though not all. Some things I have seen are so shocking that I would not let my children go to some of the venues where I worked, or go to some of the venues I attended as a younger person. In that context, I am pleased with the Bill before us.
One aspect of the Bill I particularly wish to address is the Minister's power to make regulations for events. Previous speakers have mentioned events with an audience of more or less than 2,000. Because of the size of the country, the figure should be significantly less than 2,000. Too often when indoor events are spoken of, the mind thinks of rock and pop concerts and discos. However, there are many other events that must be considered because they involve bringing large numbers of people into many different environments. These include stage shows, sporting events such as boxing and basketball in indoor arenas, trade shows and exhibitions where huge numbers of people are brought in, and conferences and seminars. They all need safety measures. Fianna Fáil typically brings 5,000 people to a venue and that generates the same excitement and enthusiasm—
We will object to the licence for that.
The enthusiasm and excitement when the Taoiseach speaks is as great as at any pop concert.
Does the Deputy also sing?
I will leave that to another Deputy who I will not name. There are also unique events. I listened to Deputy Haughey earlier talk about Barney and the child show, Disney on Ice and other shows which cater for big numbers of people and I hope that, in the regulations, the Minister looks specifically at the wider range of events and extends them to include community facilities. As a newly elected Member who has spent time working in my local community, I know that it was common to run discos without guidelines as to whether the type of hall used was appropriate or safe. The licensing of those is important.
The regulations should address specific areas including the number of people, the level of supervision and seating arrangements. When I was involved in the industry 20 years ago, seating arrangements and safety did not go hand in hand. There might be seats everywhere and no aisle to exit by. Those aspects need to be considered in detail in this Bill.
The Bill allows the Minister to issue specific codes of practice, which is very important. It also confers on the operator a statutory duty of care. A previous speaker mentioned safety announcements. Following the Stardust disaster, entertainers or bands at live shows would point out the fire exits – Members have probably been in venues when this happened – but the sound system was so inaudible that the detail could not be heard. These issues must be addressed in the Bill and the detail examined. There is no point making an announcement that cannot be heard.
Deputy Joe Higgins spoke about fire authorities issuing licences, enforcement and the setting up of a key group to look at monitoring and other matters. That is covered in sections 11 and 12 from my reading of the Bill. Section 11 will empower local authorities to issue a notice of cessation where an event is taking place or is likely to take place without the necessary licence or in contravention of the terms of a licence. Local authorities have a fundamental role to play in seeing that regulations are adhered to; it is not just the fire authorities which are involved.
Section 12 introduces standard provisions covering powers of entry onto land and powers of inspection by authorised officers and members of the Garda Síochána. Authorised officers would include fire inspection officers and, probably, local authority inspectors. One of the key aspects, often overlooked, is that events should be properly monitored when they are being prepared and set up. To go to a venue after it has been set up makes it difficult to see the detail of how it was arranged. If one looks at modern stage shows with their fancy equipment, the detail that goes into them cannot be seen. An inspection during the set-up stage, as provided for in section 12, is important. It also allows gardaí fairly free entry, not just from the perspective of fire safety but of crowd control, drug misuse and other matters.
For this Bill to be effective, it will require additional work from fire officers and my hope and understanding is that they will be adequately resourced to do this. I do not want to see a situation arise where the Bill is passed and fire safety officers must make hasty decisions. The Bill is for public safety and it is important that those who must implement it are resourced adequately to do so. I commend the Bill to the House.
I am glad to have an opportunity to comment on this Bill and I will do so on a broad basis before I refer to the Bill more specifically. It is important legislation and has been awaited for some time. As previous speakers pointed out, the Hamilton committee sat first in 1989 and made a number of recommendations regarding soccer, rugby and GAA games. It also made recommendations on major race meetings, open air concerts and events, and indoor concerts and events with which this Bill deals. The factors examined then in regard to events were overcrowding, crushing, crowd surges, fire safety, violence, structural standards, physical layout of venues etc. The final Hamilton report made 73 recommendations many of which referred to indoor pop concerts. The key recommendations in regard to pop concerts were that all major indoor pop concert promotions, where the anticipated attendance exceeded 2,000, should be licensed on an individual basis by the District Court and a minimum of two months' notice should be provided in an application for a licence for a major indoor or outdoor pop concert promotion.
Despite the fact that a committee on public safety and crowd control, under the chairmanship of Liam Hamilton, reported in February 1990, it was October 1996 before the then Taoiseach, Mr. John Bruton, announced in the Dáil that the question of safety at indoor concerts would be examined and that a voluntary code of practice would be put in place. A working group chaired by the Department of the Environment and Local Government was appointed and it took responsibility for the preparation of the code. The chairman of that group was Mr. Ray Dollard. The group included personnel from the Department of the Environment and Local Government, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Department of Education and Science, the Garda Síochána and Dublin Corporation. The code of practice for safety at indoor concerts was published in 1998 and we have waited four years for this legislation.
Safety at both indoor and outdoor events must be kept under constant examination because of the nature of events and the attitudes of those attending. In previous generations people were generally disciplined enough to ensure that issues which arise now did not arise then. There was more self imposed discipline, but things have changed. We now have the influence of the drug culture where drugs, in particular ecstasy, are in wide use before and during these events. Alcohol and different forms of cocktails also make it more difficult to control crowds and ensure they act responsibly. Although this Bill is welcome we will need to go beyond what is outlined in it in regard to indoor events.
The Bill refers to large events but I am concerned about events that will attract crowds of less than 2,000. Even small indoor events should come under scrutiny. Any of us who have visited dance halls around the country in hotels or community centres etc. will have seen that many of the windows and exits are locked and secure. If there was an outbreak of fire or other problems not all the exits or windows could be opened. Local authorities, the Garda and other relevant authorities should scrutinise all indoor centres where events take place, including community meetings. All those event organisers, authorities, owners of centres and people responsible for community facilities must accept some responsibility. If they are involved they must ensure that proper safety procedures are recognised and put in place at all times.
This Bill mentions pop concerts and music events but it does not mention major indoor sporting events. Consideration should be given to these in the Bill because of the numbers they attract. We have been promised an indoor stadium which will attract large numbers and provisions for that should be included.
There has been concern about outdoor events, particularly since the tragedy at Hillsborough in 1989. The major sporting organisations have improved safety procedures considerably but there are still dangerous incidents at times that could lead to catastrophe. Often people become negligent and casual about basic common sense procedures. They need to be reminded that safety is paramount and it should be the overriding consideration rather than the number of people who will pay to get through the gate. That attitude does not always manifest itself.
I attended a major indoor event recently and noticed that basic facilities such as first-aid and toilet facilities were not clearly marked – one had to search for them. It would be easy to provide a leaflet showing people attending an event where facilities are, where they can contact security or get first-aid etc. It is important that people are provided with this information and it should be part of the safety code.
A lot of this is common sense and a lot has to do with understanding the law. Event organisers generally refer any legal issues to their legal team and have little knowledge themselves of their legal obligations. Knowledge and understanding of their legal obligations should be mandatory for all people organising events. They should also understand the legislation attached to the running of major centres and events.
We have an opportunity now to amend this Bill and improve it. A number of people made suggestions and some good and practical contributions were made. We have waited 13 years since the Hamilton report for this legislation. I am sure experts in this area will have examined the legislation closely. This is the ideal opportunity to make the Bill effective for the next 25 to 30 years to ensure we do not have to revisit this area in future.
A number of examples were referred to and Deputy Allen, especially, referred to a major catastrophe that happened in America and how legislation resulted from that which has global application. There should be a trawl of international legislation in this area to ensure the Bill is in keeping with the thinking in other countries. There are similarities between the legislation and that in the United Kingdom. That is important because many people who attend events in Ireland also go to the UK for similar events. Perhaps the Minister's officials would confirm that the Bill is similar to the UK legislation. There could also be a broader application of the legislation in the European context.
The licensing of indoor events is timely and perhaps should have been introduced before now. Obviously this was not straightforward legislation and it has had a long thought process since 1989 and through 1996. Perhaps the Minister in implementing the legislation would examine issues that have arisen in the context of outdoor events. It is an area which needs to be revisited. One of the reasons the IRFU and FAI say Lansdowne Road needs to be either demolished or completely revamped is safety. Those of us who attended matches there recently can understand that. Safety is one of the main reasons we need a stadium for rugby and soccer. Perhaps the Minister's officials might also clarify if the legislation relates to indoor sporting events.
Many people alluded to the fact that a girl died in 1996 because of problems with crowd control and crowd surges. I knew her very well. I was teaching at the time and she was a student in the school in which I taught. She was a lovely girl and I pay tribute to her memory. It was something that should not have happened and let us hope nothing like it ever happens again. At the time my heart went out to the family and to her friends who were greatly traumatised by the event. When my children attend concerts and events, I am always concerned that something might happen and I am sure many other parents feel the same about their children.
I welcome the Bill. It is long overdue because it is six years since that event occurred and longer since this area was first examined. I have read the Bill, listened to what others have had to say and have a few points to make on it.
It is important that, irrespective of whether an event has an entry charge or is free, it is covered, and that should be made clear in the legislation. It is not stated explicitly in the Bill and is perhaps something which should be examined as there could be a loophole.
Greater responsibility is being placed on the fire authorities and it is important that they be given adequate resources to cope with this extra workload. It is not good enough to give them the extra responsibility without ensuring they have the resources, staff and training to cope with it.
Best practice internationally in this area should be examined. I am sure it is happening but it should be ongoing. Some method should be put in place for conducting research on this area. Different types of indoor events will come about and we need to keep up with best practice internationally.
It is ironic that we debated the regulation of the private security industry last week and today the regulation of indoor events because there is a relationship between the two. When I spoke on the other Bill last week, I said it was important that people who work in the private security industry receive proper training. It is also important that people who run indoor events also have a certain amount of training in running such events because a great deal of responsibility is involved. People need to know what they are doing before they run these events. The fire service could hold seminars throughout the country so that people who run concerts and musical events would have access to training and learn best practice. It is not a huge issue but it should happen as a result of the Bill being passed.
Reference has already been made to other types of indoor events, such as concerts, boxing tournaments, indoor sports and so on. I note the Bill appears to focus on concerts and musical events. Perhaps that needs to be widened to include all types of indoor events.
On the issue of fire drills, the bells rang last night in Leinster House, yet no one left the building. If the bells rang now, I do not know if the Leas-Cheann Comhairle would order the House to be evacuated. Since we commenced this session, the bells have rung on a number of occasions and nothing happened. This is a problem in—
When the bells ring, people run into the Dáil, not out of it.
In schools and other places, when fire alarms ring, nothing seems to happen. It is important we have proper fire drills and that we take more notice of and responsibility for them. I do not recall a fire drill in Leinster House in the past five years. Perhaps it is something we should examine. Some Deputies mentioned the need for proper safety announcements. At events such as these it is crucial that safety announcements be made and the public be informed where the exits are and how to leave if something goes wrong. There must be proper emergency lighting that works and the exits must open properly. In the event of people leaving a venue at night-time, there must be lighting outside also.
There is considerable concern among the medical fraternity about noise levels especially at concerts where people's hearing can be damaged. Even if it is not appropriate to this Bill, it should be considered at some stage. In years to come I can envisage people taking claims against concert promoters, etc., because their hearing has been damaged and we should examine that issue.
In the case of large indoor events, local hospitals should be informed that an event is taking place as part of the code. If something unforeseen were to occur, there should be communication between the event organisers, emergency services and the hospital, so that it would be possible to get people quickly and safely to the hospital. That requires having ambulances in position so that they can be accessed by first aid personnel on site and can get safely away from the venue. Sufficient people trained in first aid should be at the venue and they should be easily identifiable. We should be grateful to the Red Cross, the Order of Malta, St. John's Ambulance and other groups who perform this service at many events for free. We must ensure that first aid personnel who know what they are doing are present and the event organisers should assist and facilitate them in every way.
When large numbers of people, especially younger people, are travelling to and from events, accidents can occur and we should consider the need for safety there also. Obviously we need to be aware of the need to limit abuse of alcohol and drugs at some of these events. I note particularly the use of ecstasy at these events and some tragedies have occurred when people have used ecstasy and have died because of dehydration. Event organisers must take account of this. We cannot condone and must condemn in every possible way the use of illegal drugs. However, it does happen and the event organisers should be aware of, prepared for and trained in procedures to assist people who are under the influence of illegal drugs at these events.
I hope the fire services and other authorities are given the resources, training and backup to perform the functions and responsibilities that will be required of them under this Bill. I note the need for a register of events to be made available in fire offices during office hours. We should consider making it more widely available than that perhaps through Garda stations, because fire offices may not be that accessible to people.
I welcome this important Bill and I am glad to see it before the House at last. There is probably room for additions and improvements to it and I hope it will be enacted quickly.
I thank all the Deputies for their contributions and for providing an informed and worthwhile initial debate on the Bill. The Minister, Deputy Cullen, who was here for part of the Second Stage debate and heard many of the comments, is heartened, as I am, by the consensus in the House on the importance of the Bill and the need to enact it at the earliest possible opportunity. As the Minister said, the objective of the Bill is to ensure public safety at indoor events and I am confident the provisions of the Bill will achieve that. The Bill bridges the safety gap to allow the regulation of such events and will give public authorities the necessary legislative backing to prevent or control potentially unsafe concerts for the benefit of the performers and public alike.
When enacted this legislation will require promoters or organisers to demonstrate to the fire authority in advance of any event that they can run the event safely. The Minister has already spoken about the serious issues surrounding the need to introduce a system of licensing for indoor events. It was important therefore in developing this legislation, that the deficiencies in the existing licensing systems with regard to crowd safety and control were addressed and that a proper system of licensing was put in place.
This is good and workable legislation that clarifies the roles of both the public authorities and the promoters. At the moment, promoters and venue owners consult a range of local authority departments, Government Departments and public agencies when organising an event. The creation of a one-stop-shop type of system where the fire authority will co-ordinate the various inputs and requirements, with the granting of a licence with appropriate conditions or refusal being the result of the process. This will streamline the management of such events for both promoters and public bodies. Promoters and event organisers have welcomed this development.
The Bill will fully implement the principle that the promoter has responsibility for public safety issues and it introduces a statutory footing for the Hamilton report recommendation that all major indoor pop concert promotions, where the anticipated attendance exceeds 2,000, should be licensed on an individual basis. As mentioned by many Deputies, the Bill will go even further and will provide the power to regulate categories of events with fewer than 2,000 people.
Many Deputies spoke of the thresholds that will apply and the type of premises that will come under this legislation. The nature of certain performances has changed significantly in recent years with the emergence of new acts and trends. There is also greater public concern over public safety issues, particularly where young people are involved and where more than one performance or function is taking place under the same roof. The attendance number thresholds are not included in the Bill. The Minister intends to prescribe the appropriate thresholds in regulations to be made under the Act. This will allow flexibility in classifying categories of events with approved thresholds. The comments made by Deputies here will help the Minister and his officials revisit the issues in this regard and ensure all categories of events are covered. Officials from the Department have been in consultation with senior fire officers throughout the country since the Bill was first published in 2001 and the advice of fire authorities will be incorporated in drafting the necessary regulations in relation to the operation of the licensing system.
The Bill provides for the Minister to prescribe in regulations any large event deemed to pose a crowd safety risk, including indoor sporting events, commercial exhibitions in the RDS or other large venues, private corporate events and conferences including Ard-Fheiseanna and shows aimed primarily at children and young people. It would be impossible to identify in the Act all such events, present and future, which is why flexibility is maintained to prescribe such events by regulation. The numbers to be prescribed will be identified in regulations having regard to audience profile, ie children or young adults or an older audience, a rave or a Cliff Richard concert, the amount of seating provided and venue capacity. This could range from 750 to 2,000 plus, depending on the nature of the event. However, I will clarify this issue as we move to Committee Stage having regard to Deputies' comments.
Deputies have of course referred to the Stardust tragedy and the progress made in the intervening years, both in legislation and on the operation front to prevent the reoccurrence of such a tragedy. This Bill will supplement the development and progress made since then. Indeed, as the code of practice for safety at indoor concerts identifies in chapter 14, there is a vast array of legislation which governs existing events and provides for safety at the vast majority of such events. The principle legislation includes regulation or licensing for entertainment events by urban authorities under the Public Health (Amendment) Act, the Licensing Acts and the Fire Services Act, the Ease of Escape Regulations (Means of Egress and Ingress), the Planning Acts, 1963 to 2000 and the Building Control Act, 1990. Many of the events Deputies have referred to are already well controlled and regulated by such legislation.
The code of practice itself which is now given statutory backing in this Bill sets out both the category of event in table 3.10, including the type of concert, audience profile and occupancy load factors and in table 3.11 whether for individual seating, dance floor area and standing audience area. We are fortunate that safety has been to the forefront for some time in two codes of practice. On Safety at Sports Grounds and Outdoor Concerts, published by the Department of Education in 1996, set the standards for major events. Putting in place a further code of practice for safety at indoor concerts underpins much of this new Bill. The code, published in 1998, reflects the general principles of safety and the organisational parameters set out in other codes. The 71 page code provides advice and guidance on the matters involved in the safe organisation and running of an indoor concert. Advice and guidance from codes of practice developed in other countries were also taken into account in the preparation of the code and we will continue to monitor and update codes in the light of national and international experience.
The code has worked to good effect in the intervening period although it has no statutory basis. Only promoters wishing to engage in best practice observed the full guidance set out in the code. The promoters who did not comply with the guidance could not be held accountable sufficiently in the courts. In the new Licensing of Indoor Events Bill this code will be put on a statutory basis. Applicants must show compliance with the code and fire authorities must have regard to relevant codes of practice when deciding on licence applications. The Minister has noted the concerns of many Deputies that promoters and organisers as well as venue owners be subject to the Bill's requirements and this is our intention.
In addition to the introduction of the new system for the licensing of indoor events, the Bill also deals with strengthening the enforcement provisions of the Fire Safety Acts, 1981. The Bill clarifies the powers of fire authorities to prosecute summary offences and strengthens the inspection powers of authorised persons, providing them with options beginning with breaches of the Act by a person in control of a premises. The Bill also makes provision for the withdrawal of fire safety notices and updates provisions for penalties and service of notices. These changes, which have been sought by senior fire officers over the years, will allow straightforward enforcement to be exercised by fire officers which will lead to more effective enforcement activity called for by Deputies.
In regard to investment in the fire service, I am pleased to report on continuing developments and progress. Local fire authorities currently spend approximately €120 million annually in providing their fire and emergency services. This sum is augmented by grants from the Department of the Environment and Local Government towards capital provisions for the service. The fire services capital programme forms part of the Department's strategy to support the fire authorities in the development and maintenance of a quality fire-fighting and rescue service. Since 1980, some €175 million has been invested by the State in the programme which has enabled the completion of over 120 new or refurbished fire station projects and the purchase of over 430 fire appliances and other fire fighting, emergency and rescue equipment.
Will the Minister of State give way for a question? On foot of this Bill, will extra resources be made available and ringfenced to enable the fire service perform the extra functions outlined in the Bill?
We will ensure that when this Bill is enacted we will augment the provisions of it. It will be the intention of the Department to implement all aspects of the Bill because it is in the interests of safety and it is difficult to put a price on that.
I was outlining the commitment of the Government to the fire service which also includes the development of a new computer aided mobilisation project, or CAMP. As a result of this investment, the vast majority of high-volume fire stations in the country will up-date buildings with all the required facilities for modern fire brigades. Practically all fire appliances now on the road have been provided through State aid. The CAMP project, which is one of the most significant developments in the fire service capital programme in recent years, is well advanced. It will provide fire authorities with an efficient and reliable mobilisation and communications system to ensure that the best positioned fire brigades are alerted, having regard to the location and nature of any incident, mobilised properly and respond efficiently to call-outs. During my recent visit to fire stations in Cork, I was pleasantly surprised with the response to a number of calls to CAMP in Limerick. In addition to the communications equipment at fire stations, the units, while on their way, also have contact with CAMP in Limerick for the south of Ireland or Castlebar for the rest of the country.
Did the Minister of State visit Youghal?
No, but I met a deputation from Youghal. The Deputy will be aware, from his local authority that no submission has been made yet but it will be dealt with as quickly as possible after it is received.
A question which I raised this morning has not been answered yet. A major problem in relation to enforcement is that local authorities cannot enforce the regulations being created by the Department of the Environment and Local Government under the Fire Service Act and in relation to inspection of registered buildings which do not comply with fire regulations. What steps are being taken by the Department to ensure that the existing regulations are enforced?
It will be the responsibility of the fire authorities to ensure the new regulations are enforced. If the Deputy has any particular case in mind, I will pursue it on receipt of details.
We are told—
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
We cannot have a discussion at this stage as we have to move on to the next business.
The Minister is refusing to give the information requested.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
Deputy Allen's comment is not in order.
If the Deputy wishes to discuss specific matters with me, I will be happy to do so.
The fire authorities will be able to charge for licence applications. Court fines will also be paid over to the fire authorities under the provisions of this Bill.
Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a chur in iúl do na Teachtaí go léir a bhí páirteach san díospóireacht tábhachtach seo. Tá súil agam go nglacfar anois leis an Dara Céim de'n mBille seo.
Question put and agreed to.