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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 13 Nov 2002

Vol. 557 No. 2

Leaders' Questions.

The Taoiseach will agree that confidence in the Garda and the way it does its duty is a bedrock of our democratic society. Allegations, as yet unproved, from a number of sources are causing public concern about the work of the Garda. Does the Taoiseach have any plans to reform the Garda Síochána? Has the Government received a formal application for an extension of time from the current Commissioner and has the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform reported to Cabinet on this and, if not, when does the Taoiseach expect he will? The vast majority of gardaí are dedicated professionals who serve in the interests of keeping the peace in the State, but they are being undermined by a range of allegations. It is critical that the public has absolute confidence and trust in the Garda.

I readily agree with Deputy Kenny about confidence in the Garda, it is vital for our citizens and the normal practice of democracy and the rule of law that it can carry out its functions in a way that wins the respect and support of the public. We all want this. I also accept there are matters of concern on a number of fronts, particularly allegations made at the Morris tribunal. The ultimate report is a matter for another day, but even the fact the allegations have been made creates concern. The quality of the men and women who make up the Garda Síochána is second to none, at home and abroad, and they would be the first to denounce activities that are not in full compliance with the law. The Garda Síochána Bill is being prepared and will reform many areas. It will be presented before Easter.

Training has been enhanced in recent years and the operational units have been restructured. Many divisions have been arranged to include specialist units to deal with issues such as white collar crime, drugs and other criminal activities and they have been remarkably successful. We must, however, keep a careful watch on issues that discredit the Garda and see how we can manage them, the point the Deputy makes in his question. A small minority are involved, but, unfortunately, they take up a lot of time. We cannot ignore them.

The allocation for Garda training has been cut by €11 million this year. Does the Taoiseach consider, in the context of the Bill to reform the Garda that will be before the House before Easter, that the appointment of a Garda ombudsman would be relevant? Has the current Commissioner of the Garda Síochána, about whom I make no judgment, applied for an extension and has the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform reported to Cabinet on the matter? When does the Taoiseach expect him to do so?

Capital investment in Templemore and its output in the last five years is at the highest level ever. This has helped morale, and changed the age structure of the Garda, something that was an issue seven years ago. The issues raised by the Deputy and others will be dealt with in the debate on the reform of the Garda.

The Garda Commissioner has almost another year remaining on his contract and has not made a formal application for an extension, although that is not unusual at this early stage. We will do our utmost to introduce the Garda Síochána Bill before Easter.

Have the Taoiseach's early morning beavers drawn to his attention the latest report by the Combat Poverty Agency, carried out by Professor Mary Daly of Queen's University, Belfast, showing what life is like after the Celtic tiger in some of the more disadvantaged urban and rural communities? People are living on an average of €124 per week, with children on €50. Half of them are struggling with debt and a third are living with serious health problems arising from poverty. Half of them are living in fear in Dublin. Children are being bullied at school because they do not have the latest designer gear and are often attacked as a result. In one case, a 14 year old girl was hospitalised after an attack by her peers. Is it not a scandal that this is the reality of disadvantaged urban and rural communities after all the years of affluence?

There has been no significant transfer of resources to the areas in question. The Taoiseach promised the RAPID programme to tackle disadvantage two years ago, but not €1 has been paid out since. This was another stunt coming up to the general election to convey the caring side of Fianna Fáil when dealing with real disadvantage. The report, however, shows the reality for the communities concerned. People are besieged in their homes, living in fear with no adequate Garda protection or policing. Will the Taoiseach tell the House what the Government intends to do in the next budget about the report of the Combat Poverty Agency?

This and more recent Combat Poverty reports have shown that there has been an improvement. It has shown very clearly, taken on the same benchmark as the NAPS used in 1996, that there are about 400,000 people out of the relative poverty net – as against the 14% six years ago it is now about 6%. We have also seen across the areas with which Deputy Rabbitte and I are both familiar, an enormous amount of investment in deprived neighbourhoods and an enormous increase in the number of gardaí. We have seen more money spent in these areas than has been spent in about two generations. We have seen unemployment in these areas drop from 70% and 80% a decade ago to about 10% or less. The distributional effect, taking into account not only income but the circumstances of those in relative poverty, has been increased enormously. It is not true and I categorically deny that in these communities there has not been significant benefit. Every report carried out in the last five years has shown that the distributional effect of what has happened in recent years improved the position. Of course, in the most deprived areas there are still problems which will have to be dealt with. In areas where we launched the RAPID programme, such as Bridgefoot Street, we have seen in a short period the denuding of those flats, new houses and new accommodation to high standards. I am sure Deputy Rabbitte is well aware of that happening in his own area. The improvements, extensions and developments have not eliminated all the problems – I would not dare say that – but the level of poverty has been substantially reduced.

In relation to bullying, on Monday I launched a booklet on bullying in schools prepared by the Department of Education and Science and other organisations. It shows bullying is a major problem, which was not identified in other generations – I acknowledge that – and sets out how it can be dealt with. It pulls together all the organisations from district health nurses to the child welfare system and the school inspectorate to deal with and tackle this issue. I acknowledge this was never done before. It has now been identified as a problem that has to be dealt with. All of these issues required resources. They have now got resources and hopefully work will continue on them.

This is the first time for a while I have seen the Taoiseach caught without a note from his battalion of advisers and it shows—

I have a note but do not need it.

—-he is talking through his hat.

He did not need a note.

There were 14% in relative poverty when Deputy Rabbitte was in office, it is now 6%.

Deputy Rabbitte has just one minute.

May I have a bit of silence from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform? If he policed my area and these areas there would be a better response from the people. The Taoiseach is talking through his hat and he knows it.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

He has not even referred to the report that was published this morning. He has not even seen it. In fact it shows that because of the relative affluence of the Celtic tiger—

A question please.

I will ask the question in my own way if you do not mind. Is it not the case, Taoiseach, that the report shows that because of the relative affluence the position of people in these disadvantaged and marginalised communities, about which the Minister, Deputy McDowell, would know nothing, is worsening?

Deputy Rabbitte—

I know this: when the Deputy was in office the poverty level was appalling and he did nothing.

Is it not the case—

Will the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform allow Deputy Rabbitte—

—that one single euro, after two years—

The Deputy—

The €800 that the Minister, Deputy McDowell, gave his mates in the tribunals would do wonders for the poverty in these communities.

(Interruptions.)

The €800 a day that you negotiated with your mates.

If Deputy Rabbitte directed his comments through the Chair he might not invite interruption.

Here there are four on €124. Is it not the case that not one single euro has been paid out under the RAPID programme which was supposed to transfer resources to these communities? In these communities is it any wonder people drop out of school early, that they have no prospects of a job, that there is no policing in the area, that they take to joyriding, that there is a drugs problem and that a reputable academic from QUB professes herself shocked to find the reality of poverty in the Republic of Ireland at the end of the life of the Celtic tiger?

A Deputy

And the Deputy wants to get rid of the pension fund.

Every single report including this morning's report shows very clearly that relative poverty has declined.

Consistent poverty.

Deputy Rabbitte does not want me to quote from my note but I will since he asked me. The ESRI and the Combat Poverty Agency, the last budget and this report have noted that the greatest gains—

That is not in this report. The Taoiseach has not seen it.

The Taoiseach without interruption.

Those at the bottom of the income scale have gained from the last budget.

A Deputy

Why does he not—

It might be up a tree somewhere.

It notes that the Government policies, including budgetary policies over the past number of years, have contributed to creating almost 400,000 new jobs, reducing consistent poverty from 10% in 1997 to 6% today, reducing child poverty from 17% in 1997 to 8%—

That is not in today's report.

That has nothing to do with the report.

—reducing unemployment—

The Taoiseach has not even seen the report.

These are the facts from the report. Unemployment has been reduced from 10.3% in 1997 to 4.3%. I can well understand why Members opposite are upset that these figures are coming out to show that poverty has declined rapidly.

Before calling Deputy Sargent I want to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the Standing Order in regard to leaders' questions is very specific and straightforward.

The Chair might tell the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to restrain himself.

Deputy Higgins should not interrupt when the Chair is speaking. The leader of each party is entitled to ask a question of the Taoiseach. They have two minutes to ask the question and the Taoiseach has three minutes to reply. The questioner has one minute to ask a supplementary and the Taoiseach has one minute to reply. No other Member is entitled to interrupt.

Why do you not tell that to the other side of the House?

In fairness to the leaders of the parties and in fairness to the Taoiseach they are entitled to have their say in this House without interruption.

I will try to abide by the Ceann Comhairle's instructions. It was consistent poverty we were talking about rather than relative poverty. My question has to do with the likelihood of a war with the United States attacking Iraq. Has the Taoiseach evaluated the possible effects of that war not just on the people of Iraq but on this country, not only in terms of the victims of the war directly but the effects on the price of energy, Ireland being 80% dependent on fossil fuel, the effects of burning oil gas wells on global CO2 emissions, the effects of the radioactive burden from depleted uranium weapons on both victims and combatants and the knock-on effects of terrorism worldwide? In the light of the United Nations resolution has he any plan, in the event that the United States unilaterally attacks Iraq, in regard to what Ireland will do? I know he does not want the United States to unilaterally attack Iraq but if it does, and it looks likely, will Shannon Airport continue to be made available to the United States airforce? Will the Dáil have a vote on the matter? The use of Shannon Airport would involve us participating in that war. The Constitution, which is explicit, states that war shall not be declared and the State shall not participate in any war, save with the assent of Dáil Éireann. When are we likely to see a vote in Dáil Éireann in advance of a possible attack by the United States on Iraq?

The two minutes have concluded.

What security measures will be put in place at Shannon Airport given the likelihood of that attack?

As the Deputy has said, we would rather not see military action. We welcome the adoption of UN Security Council Resolution 1441 last week which was unanimous and expressed in a unified fashion the Security Council's concerns and intentions concerning Iraq. This achieves a position that we, with many other countries, have fought for over many months, in which the United Nations, and not some other area, will be the vehicle for trying to deal with this issue. The integrity of the UN Charter and the prerogatives of the Security Council are fully preserved in the terms of that resolution. For Ireland this is an issue of fundamental importance and we are pleased that the resolution has kept this issue within the framework of the Security Council. The Deputy is aware of what will happen. If there is a breach, if the inspectors are not allowed to do their job and undertake—

What security measures are to be put in place?

I am coming to that. The Deputy asked about Resolution 1441. Its purpose is to bring about Iraq's co-operation with the arms inspectors. That is what we hope will happen. It is not a mandate for military action. We support the resolution which lays down procedures which require the question of non-compliance by Iraq to be considered by a further meeting of the Security Council. The question the Deputy asked was what will happen if Iraq does not comply. It will be for the Secretary General to assess whether Iraq failed to meet its obligations and to decide on any action that may be required. The Secretary General has made it absolutely clear that if Iraq breaks the inspector's mandate, the Security Council—

Answer the question.

It is a set-up and the Taoiseach knows it.

I am not Saddam Hussein. All the Deputy wants is to have a go at the United States. He should allow his party leader to ask a question.

(Interruptions.)

The decision might include authorising the use of force by member states if the resolution is not complied with. If that is the case we will support it and play our part, as Secretary General Kofi Annan has stated.

It is a set-up, and the Taoiseach knows it.

What will happen if the US attacks unilaterally? That is the question.

On the issue of the Constitution, if any resolution were passed, it would be up to the Government to decide what action should be taken by Ireland in the light of the relevant constitutional provisions.

It is not up to the Government. It is up to the Dáil.

The Deputy may be assured that the Government will at all times abide fully by the Constitution. Those circumstances do not arise now. The Government is acting under Article 29.4. The Deputy knows what that is. It provides for the executive power of the State in connection with its external relations to be exercised by or on the authority of the Government. That is what would happen.

I do not agree that the Government is complying with the Constitution on this matter. I ask the Taoiseach again, because he has not answered, whether the Government will continue to allow Shannon Airport to be used if the United States unilaterally attacks Iraq as, at that stage, we would be de facto participating in a war. That is the question, pure and simple, and I would like the Taoiseach to answer it. Will he also answer the question I asked about additional security arrangements at Shannon Airport? Also, given today's reports of additional security on ferries from Britain to Ireland and other places which the British Government has seen fit to increase, will the Government be increasing security at any point in the country, including Shannon Airport, given the likelihood of a unilateral attack by the United States on Iraq?

As I have said many times, in the case of routine landings of military aircraft at Shannon Airport, confirmation is required that the aircraft is unarmed, does not carry ammunition or explosives, and does not form part of a military exercise.

How do we know?

US military aircraft meeting these conditions have been granted permission to refuel at Shannon for a number of decades and that position continues.

They are war planes.

The other question is still a hypothetical one.

Does the Taoiseach not deal with those?

What we are seeking to do, having with many other countries put many months into a successful UN resolution, is to make sure that now it follows its course. That is what we should be concerned with. The resolution sets down very clearly what the position is and has the total support of Kofi Annan and all the other members of the Security Council. If it is breached, it will come back to the Security Council. That is what we support. The arms inspectors must report any major breaches – we have debated the Vienna Convention and the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, answered a question on it. If the resolution is breached, we and everybody else on the Security Council will have a decision to make. Our position is very clear. We will support action if Iraq breaks with the terms of the current Security Council Resolution.

It is a set-up.

The Taoiseach has not answered.

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