Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 13 Nov 2002

Vol. 557 No. 2

Licensing of Indoor Events Bill, 2001: Second Stage.

Minister for the Environment and Local Government (Mr. Cullen)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The objective of this Bill is to ensure public safety at indoor events which of their nature are designed to be enjoyed by members of the public. The Bill gives full legal effect to the recommendations of the Hamilton committee on crowd control in respect of large scale indoor events. It will allow public authorities to prevent or control potentially unsafe concerts for the benefit of performers and the public alike. Currently there is no adequate mechanism in place to regulate public safety at indoor concerts and events. The Garda, health boards and fire authorities have limited powers prior to an event. This legislation when enacted will require promoters and organisers to demonstrate to the fire authority in advance of an event that they can run the event safely.

The Bill has the subsidiary purpose of strengthening the enforcement procedures of the Fire Services Act, 1981, as recently recommended by the report on the review of fire safety and fire services in Ireland. These proposed amendments, together with the enforcement provisions proposed in respect of the new indoor event licensing system, will enable a more immediate response to situations requiring enforcement action.

Like anyone else going out for an evening's entertainment, I would like to be assured when I go to a concert or a pub that my safety is a priority for the people in control of the premises and this Bill aims to do just that. The Bill when enacted will ensure that public safety and crowd management will be taken into account when an event is going through the new licensing process. When taken with the Planning and Development Act, 2000, and associated regulations on outdoor events, it will mean that we will have new and updated requirements covering public safety and crowd management issues for both outdoor and indoor events.

The licensing system will apply equally to both public and private events. It is intended to address the deficiencies in the existing licensing systems with regard to crowd safety and control. The role of fire authorities relates to fire related matters and there is a need to expand and strengthen it. Licensing under the Public Health Acts (Amendment) Act, 1890, only applied in the large cities where relevant by-laws have been implemented such as Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford. Licences granted under the Public Dance Halls Act, as amended, do not require specific consideration of issues of crowd control and management, structural safety at the venue, and sanitary accommodation.

It may be appropriate to recall the background to the Bill. A committee chaired by Mr. Justice Hamilton examined the question of public safety and crowd control and reported in 1990. This committee examined in detail all safety aspects of entertainment such as concerts, and concluded that the primary responsibility for public safety should attach to the organisers and promoters of such events. The committee made a series of recommendations on public safety and crowd control, many of which have been implemented in the intervening years.

This Bill will fully implement the principle of promoter responsibility and also a key recommendation of the Hamilton report that "all major indoor pop concert promotions where the anticipated attendance exceeds 2,000 should be licensed on an individual basis". Indeed the Bill will go further and provide the power also to regulate events with less than 2,000 people.

The changing nature of events and venues has led to great concern about public safety issues, particularly where young people are involved. While I have not included the attendance number thresholds in the Bill, I intend to prescribe the appropriate thresholds in regulations to be made under the Act. This will allow flexibility in classifying events and venues within approved thresholds and it will reflect the advice of fire authorities in relation to the operation of the licensing system.

Following on the recommendations of the Hamilton report, two codes of practice, on safety at sports grounds and at outdoor pop concerts, were published by the Department of Education in 1996. A tragic death which occurred at a concert in the Point Theatre in the same year gave impetus to the development and putting in place of a third code of practice on safety at indoor concerts. An interdepartmental working group comprising representatives of my Department, together with the Departments of Education and Science, Health and Children, Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Garda and Dublin Corporation was established to prepare the code.

The code of practice for safety at indoor concerts was published by my Department in 1998. The code reflects the general principles of safety and the organisational parameters set out in the other codes. All the codes reflect the recommendations of the report of the Hamilton committee, which examined public safety and crowd control. The code provides advice and guidance on the matters involved in the safe organisation and running of indoor concerts. The aim of the code is to help those involved in the organisation of indoor concerts to plan and manage such events safely. As indoor concerts take place in a wide variety of venues and cover a wide range of events, the guidance is set out in broad functional terms. The issue of crowd control is central to the safe running of these events and detailed guidelines are contained in the code. The code could not and did not address the issue of licensing the events to which it applies. Codes of practice will be put on a statutory basis under this Bill. Applicants must show compliance with such codes and fire authorities must have regard to relevant codes of practice when deciding on licence applications.

The new licensing system introduced in this Bill is based largely on the outdoor events provisions in Part XVI of the Planning and Development Act, 2000, and the Planning and Development (Licensing of Outdoor Events) Regulations, 2001, which introduced a new licensing regime for the control and proper management of largescale outdoor events. The new system will focus on crowd control and the levels of safety appropriate to an event or type of event. An event is defined as "a performance which takes place wholly or partly in a building and which is comprised of music, singing, dancing, displays of entertainment or any activity of like kind". The licensing system will be operated by fire authorities and applicants will have the right to appeal decisions to the District Court. There is also provision for the other front-line emergency services, the Garda, health boards and ambulance services, to be involved at the licensing stage and during follow-up inspections.

As I mentioned earlier, I propose to prescribe in regulations, at the same time as the commencement of this Bill, the attendance number threshold for indoor events and classes of indoor event. It is intended that indoor events and classes of event will be categorised in a table in the regulations. This will provide the flexibility to adjust the threshold set if changing circumstances so require.

I wish to discuss the main provisions of Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill. Sections 1, 2 and 3 are standard provisions dealing with the Bill's Short Title, commencement of the Act, interpretation and ministerial expenses. Section 2 defines an indoor event as "a performance which takes place wholly or mainly in a building and comprises music, singing, dancing, displays of entertainment or any similar activity and in respect of which members of the public may or may not attend". This will cover events run in private clubs and other events prescribed under regulations made under section 4.

Section 5 contains the key provisions of the Bill and provides that an indoor event will require a licence from the fire authority and that it will be an offence to organise or run such an event without a licence. Section 6 provides for the procedures to be followed by fire authorities when making a determination in relation to an application for a licence. A fire authority will be able to impose conditions in the licence and those involved in the event will be required to have regard to codes of practice such as the code of practice for safety at indoor concerts. Section 7 states that a licence in itself will not necessarily authorise the holding of an indoor event, as compliance with other relevant codes will still be required. Section 8 makes provision for those applying for a licence, aggrieved by a decision of the fire authority, to have the right of appeal to the District Court.

Section 9 makes provision for the issue of codes of practice and notice of the codes of practice shall be published in Iris Oifigiúil. Section 10 outlines the general duty of care of persons involved in organising or attending an event. Section 11 empowers fire authorities to serve a notice of cessation requiring those involved to stop an event or preparations for an event, remove any temporary structures, or restore any building to its original condition where a fire authority has reason to believe that an event is likely to occur without or in contravention of a licence. Section 12 provides powers of entry on to land and powers of inspection for authorised officers and members of the Garda Síochána. Section 13 is a standard provision for the limitation of civil proceedings against the Minister, fire authorities or authorised officers in the exercise of any functions required under this Bill. Section 14 empowers the District Court to revoke a licence on application by a fire authority where a licensee has been convicted of an offence under the Bill.

Section 15 deals with penalties and the prosecution of offences. Section 16 gives fire authorities the power to prosecute any summary offences committed in their functional areas. Section 17 provides that directors, officers or members of a corporate body may be liable when a corporate body commits an offence. Section 18 states that any fines imposed by a court in relation to offences under this Bill will accrue to the fire authority. Section 19 provides that fire authorities will be required to maintain a register of decisions and notices served and that the register will be open to the public for inspection during office hours. Section 20 makes provision for fire authorities to make joint arrangements to carry out the licensing function or to provide assistance to other fire authorities. Section 21 deals with the appointment and powers of authorised officers for the licensing function under Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill.

Section 22 is a standard provision in relation to the service of notices.

Part 3 of the Bill addresses more general amendments to the Fire Services Act, 1981, the basic legislation dealing with fire fighting and fire safety in Ireland. In the 21 years since the introduction of the Act, many changes have taken place in relation to fire safety and prevention. These changes warrant recognition in a legal context. I am aware that a number of the provisions, particularly the penalty provisions that were included in the 1981 Act, have proved to be less than effective in practice and are in need of reform. I am not proposing a fundamental review of the 1981 Act at this stage, but I intend to remedy difficulties in relation to the enforcement provisions of the Act which have been identified over the years, particularly following a legal challenge in the Supreme Court in 1993. The judgment in the 1993 case held that the Fire Services Act, 1981, contains no provision that gives a specific power to any person or body to bring and prosecute summary proceedings for offences under sections 18(2), 20 and 37 of the Act or regulations made under section 37 of the Act. The only route open to prosecute such offences is the lengthy process of prosecution through the Circuit Court on indictment. I intend in this Bill to put beyond doubt that a fire authority may take summary proceedings for an offence under the sections and regulations to which I have referred.

Part 3 of the Bill also addresses the issue of powers of inspection for fire authorities and fire authority inspectors under the Act. Provision is made for withdrawal of a fire safety notice. The definition of a building in the Act has been widened to include "part of a building" to deal with difficulties which have arisen in relation to issuing fire service notices to multiple occupancy buildings. Part 3 of the Bill also updates the penalty provisions of the 1981 Act to bring fines into line with current money values.

As regards the detailed provisions of Part 3, section 23 extends the definition of "building" in the Fire Services Act, 1981, to include parts of buildings, structures or erections, thus providing the fire authorities with the flexibility to serve notices on parts of buildings. Sections 24 and 25 copperfasten the power of fire authorities to prosecute offences summarily and the sections also update the penalty provisions of the Fire Services Act, 1981. Section 26 clarifies section 18(2) of the Fire Services Act, 1981. It puts beyond doubt the duty of persons in control to make adequate provision for the safety of persons on the premises regardless of whether an outbreak of fire has actually occurred. This section also strengthens the status of advice given by a fire authority and its inspection powers. It underpins an extended range of options, including the issuing of a warning that a fire authority could use in dealing with "persons in control".

Section 27 makes provision for the issue of codes of practice and provides that notice of the codes of practice shall be published in Iris Oifigiúil. Section 28 makes statutory provision for the withdrawal of fire safety notices. Up to now there was no provision in the Fire Services Act to enable a fire authority to withdraw a notice once it had issued in relation to premises. This gave rise to considerable conveyancing difficulties for these premises. Section 29 updates provisions governing the service of notices. I am sure that the House will agree that the enactment of this legislation should be a priority to ensure that audiences attending large indoor events can rest assured that there is a crowd control and safety plan in place for their protection to ensure their safety.

I commend the Bill to the House and look forward to a constructive debate on its various provisions.

Mr. Allen

I support the Minister's sentiments in the second last paragraph of his speech. I am very mindful that in May 1996 a lady from Shanagarry, Midleton, County Cork, Bernadette O'Brien, died in the Mater Hospital when the life support machine was switched off. She suffered severe internal injuries during a crush at The Smashing Pumpkins concert in the Point Theatre in Dublin's Docklands. That tragedy was the catalyst for much of the work done since then. Following another tragedy at Hillsborough football stadium, the Government announced on 18 April 1989 that it intended to appoint a high level committee to consider all aspects of public safety and crowd control.

The committee under the chairmanship of the Honourable Mr. Justice Liam Hamilton was formally appointed on 12 May 1989 and held its inaugural meeting on that date. All meetings were held in private and the proceedings of all meetings were regarded as confidential. In order to identify clearly its area of work, the committee decided the following events would be examined. These included major soccer and GAA games, major open air concerts and events, major indoor events and concerts and major race meetings. The factors to be examined in regard to these events included overcrowding, crushes, crowd surges, fire safety, violence, structural standards and the physical layout of the venue. The final Hamilton report made 73 recommendations, many of which referred to indoor pop concerts. The key recommendations in regard to indoor pop concerts included, first, that all major indoor pop concert promotions anticipating an attendance exceeding 2,000 should be licensed on an individual basis by the District Court and, second, a minimum of two months notice should be provided in an application for a licence for a major indoor or outdoor pop concert promotion.

Despite the fact the Committee on Public Safety and Crowd Control under Mr. Justice Liam Hamilton reported in February 1990, it was 24 October 1996 before an announcement was made in Dáil Éireann by the then Taoiseach, Deputy John Bruton, that the question of safety at indoor concerts would be examined and a voluntary code of practice on the issue would be put in place. The working group, chaired by the Department of the Environment and Local Government, was appointed by me to take responsibility for the preparation of the voluntary code of practice under the chairmanship of Ray Dollard from the Department. It involved personnel from the Departments of the Environment and Local Government and Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Garda, the sports section of the Department of Education and Science and Dublin Corporation. While the code of practice for safety at indoor concerts was published in 1998, we are at long last, four years later, getting this legislation, which I welcome.

The code of practice comes under 13 headings. It proposed that premises used for indoor concerts would be subject to licensing or registration under a number of statutory codes and that if premises involved were ordinarily used for music, singing or other public entertainment, a licence should be obtained in certain urban areas in which Part IV of the Public Health (Amendment) Act had been adopted by the urban authority. It recommended that promoters should consult with the relevant urban authority for information as to whether Part IV of the Act had been adopted locally. Under the Public Dance Halls Act, 1935, as amended by the Licensing Act, 1997, a licence should be required for any place where public dancing is proposed to take place. It recommended that this requirement would apply in regard to indoor events where dancing takes place. Licences under these Acts would be obtained from the District Court and conditions could be imposed limiting the numbers to be admitted and specifying precautions to be observed in regard to crowd control and similar matters. It recommended that these licences would be renewable on an annual basis and that there would be provision for the granting of a temporary licence in respect of music and singing or public dancing for 14 days and one month, respectively.

It also made recommendations regarding the Licensing Act, 1997, specifically in relation to combating drug abuse; the Intoxicating Liquor Acts; the Fire Services Act, 1981; the ease of escape regulations, 1985; the means of ingress and egress; temporary structures and the Planning Acts, 1963-93; the Building Control Act, 1990; and the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act, 1989. It also made recommendations regarding civil liability; the Criminal Justice Public Order Act, 1994; the Casual Trading Act, 1995; the food hygiene regulations, 1950-89; the Children Act, 1908; the Children Bill, 1996; and the Litter Pollution Act, 1997.

As I already said, this legislation arises from the Hamilton report as well as the code of practice for safety at indoor concerts. The code of practice for safety at indoor concerts followed the same general principles of safety and the organisation of parameters set out in other codes. It reflected the recommendations of the Hamilton committee on crowd control. It set out the minimum functional requirements for the safe organisation and management of concerts. It provided practical guidance and advice for promoters on a wide range of parameters relevant to crowd control such as event planning and management, crowd management, the use of barriers, stewarding and emergency and medical facilities. Other aspects dealt with fire precautions and fire safety, structural matters, electrical installation and communications. The code pointed out that indoor concerts take place in a wide variety of venues and covered a wide range of events. For that reason the code was set out in broad functional terms with the requirements to be adopted to the needs of the particular event. The code never intended to apply to the small type of events held in pubs and discos. Admittedly it was a voluntary code because the history and experience with the two previous codes was that up to then a voluntary and flexible approach worked well.

At the time it was stated that the Department of the Environment and Local Government, in conjunction with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, would examine the issue of licensing indoor concerts including the implementation of the recommendation made by the Hamilton committee on crowd control on the licensing of indoor concerts with audiences of above 2,000 people and the role local authorities might play in such a licensing system. Even though the legislation is welcome, I am concerned that it took so long to come before this House. Following the Hamilton Committee Report, 1990, the committee to draw up the code of practice was established. The code was published in 1998 and four years later we are debating the legislation.

Over the years there were a number of tragic events both in this country and outside it. I referred already to the tragedy in the Point Theatre. One of the major tragedies occurred on 3 December 1979, at The Who concert in Cincinnati which ranked as the most horrific rock concert event ever. Some 11 rock fans were crushed to death and scores were injured because of the gross crowd management failings. Many people associated with the concert recall that night in disbelief. Many of them have told their personal stories which we have read. A landmark report on concert safety in regard to crowd management was published in 1998 by the Cincinnati Citizen Task Force. It contained many recommendations designed to prevent a repeat of that disaster. Among the report's most important recommendations were two from chapter 7. One was that the Internal Association of Auditorium Managers should develop crowd management standards for facility operators and event promoters and that the same organisation should develop incentives or sanctions to encourage its members to meet these standards. However, promises made to have recommendations implemented were never fulfilled.

Instead of working towards industry standards and producing a definitive crowd management study, the vested interests detoured to a lower road and began sponsoring well-choreographed conferences and seminars that were steered away from discussions of key safety studies and standards from which we should learn. One can only wonder how many lives might have been saved throughout the world and how many injuries might have been prevented had an international code of standards been drafted and, more importantly, implemented. The task force that was set up after The Who concert tragedy proved that serious study could produce reasonable results and guidelines and communities around the country showed that concert safety laws were workable.

One of the excuses given for not implementing the task force report was that all concert events were different, and that is true in some ways. However, the British Government demonstrated that standardised guidelines were possible and in 1993 the health and safety commission of the Home Office and the Scottish Office published the Guide to Health, Safety and Welfare at Pop Concerts and Similar Events. The "pop guide" contained 145 pages of excellent commentary and guidelines and is currently used by concert promoters and staff throughout the UK. The impetus for this came from the deaths of two rock fans at a 1988 festival.

This legislation is long overdue because of the proliferation of concerts, the risk of avoidable disasters and the profile of concert audiences, a large segment of which consists of teenagers and children. One of the most horrific tragedies to have occurred was at the Roskilde festival in Copenhagen in 2000, where eight people were trampled to death when the crowd rushed the stage on a tragic Friday night. This was an outdoor concert, but there are lessons to be learned. It could just as easily have happened at an indoor concert because the fans apparently pushed towards the stage in an effort to hear the music after loudspeakers failed at the rear of the stadium.

Arising from that tragedy a presentation was made to the Danish committee on concert and festival safety by Mr. Paul Wertheimer, who was involved in the Cincinnati study. He made four major points: tragedies such as the one in Copenhagen had to be viewed in the context of crowd management; the search for comprehensive standards and safety legislation would be a disappointing one because, he said, no one region or country is doing everything right when it comes to concert safety; safety laws, standards or guide lines, or a combination of these, are needed to prevent future disorders and tragedies; and concert and festival safety could be significantly improved if the inherent dangers of seating are addressed.

In relation to codes and laws that work, he said there were two significant reasons safety legislation and guides were needed. Concerts and festivals have grown to become major attractions and have increased in number, size and complexity. Generally speaking, existing laws in most communities do not address the peculiarities of live pop music events. By "peculiarities" he was referring to activities such as crowd-surfing, when a person is carried above a crowd; pogoing, jumping up and down in place; moshing; crowd surges; crowd collapses; crushes and provocative actions by performers. Because of these and other safety challenges the establishment of safety procedures for concerts and festivals is developing into an international trend.

I have not attended many major indoor pop concerts but I believe there is still much to be done to ensure that crowd management strategy recommendations are fully complied with. Full information should be posted at venues about venue rules and policies; entrance and exit locations, first aid rooms and door openings; special services for the disabled, elderly and children; prohibited items and crowd activities and penalties; updates on performance schedule changes; information and maps for emergencies; and anticipated sound and noise levels inside the concert site. How many of these are being implemented at present? I ask the Minister whether concert organisers are obliged to have a report on first aid data and arrest information so that music fans, parents, the medical profession, crowd safety consultants, safety and law enforcement officials and legislators will be better able to judge the safety of events in their communities. If this procedure was followed it would also help the event organisers, artists and contract staff with the best safety records to receive the recognition they deserve.

Much of the concert scene today is greatly influenced by international youth pop culture and the concert industry. Concert production and culture are not provincial or even national products. They are growing less parochial and more international by the day. Codes of practice and legislation must recognise this international influence so that we can understand and deal with the reasons audiences, performers and organisers act as they do. Irish music culture is heavily layered with international influences coming from lots of sources and perhaps the most pervasive, if not influential, is America's MTV. The images, music, opinions and news it carries reach more than 35 million households in 139 countries.

MTV is not the only influence, however. Young people, including children, are being inundated with many persuasive influences, coming from too many sources to list. One of the most shocking, as demonstrated recently, was a cata logue by the toy-maker LEGO whose cover picture showed an easily discernible LEGO character crowd-surfing in a stadium. This is a small example of what is being communicated to youngsters. It says that crowd-surfing is fun and the thing to do. Those developing policies, guidelines and legislation must understand how popular youth values and mannerisms are born, promoted and perpetuated so that we may have more effective crowd safety techniques for events attended by young people and adults.

This legislation and the creation of new standards for concerts and indoor events in Ireland will be some of the few positive actions to come from tragedies at pop concerts. The lessons of tragedies should not be forgotten because too often when a tragedy occurs, people and special interest groups are eager to erase the memory and the evidence of the incident. Lessons learned are ignored and forgotten, with the loss of life, injuries and property damage, and this can be a costly and tragic mistake. If we fail to learn the lessons of the past we are condemned to repeat our errors. All music fans, youth culture media, safety officials, parents and legislators need to remember our mistakes and not hide them if we want to find ongoing remedies for evolving situations.

I welcome the Bill. I am studying this element of it in detail so that we can deal with the provisions in more detail on Committee Stage. I welcome the updating of the part of the Bill dealing with fire safety. We can have all the legislation and regulations we want, but I am convinced that fire safety regulations as well as safety regulations of all sorts have a poor level of implementation and enforcement. I mentioned this last night during our debate on the motion relating to the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy. Local authorities do not have the resources to enforce the existing regulations. A recent study was done by a Sunday newspaper about the quality of accommodation being offered to students in this city. There were dozens of cases of substandard accommodation, fire traps and death traps, yet the local authorities do not appear concerned. I can give examples from my city of people who live in hovels. They have no chance of escape in case of fire and the building regulators or fire department do not enforce the regulations. They seem to be ignored and there will be tragedies.

We will pass this Bill with some amendments but we should ensure the legislation is implemented, which is not happening. Local authorities tell me they have a lot of regulations to enforce but do not have the manpower or resources to do so and the poorest and weakest suffer as a result. Business people who cut corners and ignore safety laws are exploiting the lack of enforcement and some people's unfortunate circumstances.

I welcome the Bill. We must learn from the past but we must also be vigorous in enforcing the existing laws.

Ms Lynch

If this is the Deputy's first occasion in the Chair I congratulate him as, although it is an honour, it must be fairly daunting.

I speak instead of Deputy Gilmore, who is unfortunately absent because of family circumstances. He will deal with the Bill in greater detail on Committee Stage.

Listening to the Minister and Deputy Allen, it occurs to me that the old saying is true, one cannot put an old head on young shoulders. The young are adventurous by nature. They see no danger in anything and they are inclined to be more energetic than those of us here, and that includes everyone.

People, particularly the young, have more disposable income now. After what was said last night about the Minister for Finance, that might sound like a contradiction but it is not. In my day we saved for a deposit to buy a house. That notion is pie in the sky to young people. For them all their income is disposable as there is no longer any point in saving. There is nothing one can do with what one saves, therefore all one's income is disposable. That is why indoor and outdoor events have become increasingly popular. If we went to two concerts in a year when we were young, they would have been major events but people now go to concerts no matter what the cost. They will travel and stay overnight because they have more disposable income.

I am not going to go into all the tragedies which have led to this legislation. I welcome the Bill, which is timely. It is good legislation. The tragedies which have led to the Bill have left scars on the families of those injured or maimed. They do not need reminding of those tragedies, as they will never forget them. Neither can one prevent tragedies from happening. We are going to encounter such tragedies again and again but if they occur it should be as a result of something we have not foreseen. When we introduce legislation to protect people we should try to envisage every possible event and action people are capable of taking which could cause injury to others. We all hope nothing like this will happen again but if it does it should be as a result of something unforeseen. The Bill goes a long way towards ensuring that is the case.

I am glad the Minister referred to numbers, saying he will not go along with the original recommendation regarding events of more than 2,000 people but that he will go for fewer numbers. All of us have been in venues – not the Point or other major venues – where we have felt uncomfortable and unsafe. One checks where exits are but sometimes the exit is a very narrow stairway leading to a basement thronged with people who are drinking and in high spirits. One wonders if the lights went out, let alone a fire breaking out, how people would find their way out of such venues. The Minister knows that such venues are within a roaring distance of the Chamber. On certain nights when people are out to enjoy themselves – either for a person's birthday or simply at the weekend – they are crammed into venues with no safety exits or crowd control. They are unsafe and I am glad the Minister will deal with venues holding less than 2,000 people, as it is very important. People can be injured, maimed or even killed in crowds far smaller than those indicated in the original committee report.

The Minister should re-examine section 11, as it is of serious concern to those in the fire service. They say section 11 does not allow for immediate action to be taken and their explanation makes good sense. For instance, a fire officer or some other person charged with responsibility at a major event may find an exit door at an event is blocked – maybe not by furniture or amplifiers, but by the crowd. He or she cannot take immediate action and if something happens that night, when the fire exit may be necessary to release crowds from the venue, taking action the next morning is too late. While I agree with Deputy Allen regarding the lack of personnel to police venues, such personnel may not be able to take immediate action. This can be altered in section 11.

The Minister rightly spoke about ensuring that when people go into venues they should feel secure and safe. That is what the legislation is about and I am sure on Committee Stage the Minister will listen to the reservations and concerns of those who will be charged with ensuring the legislation is implemented. Deputy Gilmore will deal with the Bill on Committee Stage and he will have much to say. The Bill is welcome and those of us who are parents will be relieved to know our children are safe when they go to these events. Young people are energetic and full of life. They see little wrong with crowd-surfing or moshing, even though we as parents are horrified by them being involved in those activities. With proper restrictions and regulation we can ensure they are safe and that they will return from enjoyable occasions.

Mr. Morgan

I propose to share my time with Deputies Cuffe, Connolly and Finian McGrath. I am speaking on behalf of my leader, Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.

Acting Chairman (Dr. Cowley)

The Deputies have seven minutes each.

Mr. Morgan

It is easy to welcome this Bill and acknowledge the good work that has been done. More than 21 years after the Stardust disaster, however, the question remains to be asked why there are still no quality procedures in the leisure industry. Why is it only after tragedies such as the Stardust or The Smashing Pumpkins concert at the Point Depot that we, as legislators, recognise the pressing need to formulate laws and legal codes that effectively protect people to whom we owe the responsibility to govern adequately?

The purpose of this Bill is to make provision for the licensing of certain indoor events and place a code of practice on a statutory basis for them. When the code was originally announced by the former Minister for the Environment and Local Government, his statement asserted that it would set out a minimum functional requirement for the safe organisation and management of concerts. While there has been some improvement in the quality and safety of venues, standards vary hugely across the State and there are still many flea pits. While such venues might not hold any attraction for more mature Members of this House, they are often filled with our children, who throng to these dives. It is with some concern, therefore, that I note the code of practice is not intended to apply to the smaller type of event held in pubs and discos. Why not? It should apply to all events.

It was recognised by the former Minister, Deputy Dempsey, last year that the report of the interdepartmental review group on public safety recommended that the codes of practice should be placed on a statutory basis and that public safety should be placed high among the concerns to be addressed in decision making and in the development of policy. If the past or present Ministers really believed this was the case they would ensure that all venues are included under the terms of the Bill.

We are told that the expenses incurred in the administration of the Bill will be paid out of money provided by the Oireachtas. Why not ask the promoters of events to contribute towards the cost of ensuring safety standards at indoor events or concerts they are organising?

While it is right that the code of practice envisaged by the Bill need not be part of the legislation, there are gaps in the background and purpose of the Bill. It focuses entirely on the venues where events are taking place and not on the promoters of events and their responsibilities. Promoters and performers are usually not the owners of the venues. There should be a code of practice, guidelines and, where necessary, sanctions for them too. Most importantly, there is no mention of the rights of customers and audiences, the standards they should expect at a concert venue and the level of safety the promoters of events must provide for them. Those should form a central part of the Bill.

The Bill confers considerable powers on the Minister to determine the licence criteria for these events. Why is so much power given to the Minister? Is he really the competent authority in this regard? The Bill should provide more detail on the required high standard of public safety. It empowers the Minister to draw up the relevant codes of practice but we have not seen a draft of these codes. It is strange that it is accepted practice to pass Bills without seeing the small print.

We need the best possible legislation to ensure safety at all indoor and outdoor events. Failure at this stage could easily result in tragedy later. We must show that we have learned from the past. A concert-goers' bill of rights should include the right to enjoy a concert in a safe environment, be treated with respect by facility management, concert security, entertainers and promoters regardless of race, sex, appearance or disabilities and be informed of the responsibilities of the ticket holder and the concert facility's house rules prior to the purchase of a ticket. It should also include the right to be notified in a timely manner of changes in the performance, door opening time or other information affecting the safety or enjoyment of a concert and a provision requiring the posting at a concert of the names and addresses of the facility's management, the performers' agents or promoters and the concert security firm.

These are the salient issues and I will address them on the later Stages of the Bill.

Mr. Cuffe

Never in my wildest dreams did I think I would receive a lecture from Fine Gael on the dangers of crowd-surfing in this House, not only on crowd surfing by people but by Lego characters. Deputy Allen made moshing, pogo dancing and crowd surfing sound as if they were unsavoury sexual practices rather than the natural tendencies of younger people. We must get real with this legislation and acknowledge what young people get up to. If Fine Gael had its way, we would all be sitting quietly tapping our feet at a James Last concert in the National Concert Hall rather than allowing young people to indulge in what they do best – enjoying themselves.

This Bill is welcome but it does not make up for the need to enforce and revise existing codes where appropriate. There is a danger in the quick fix solution. Wearing my architect's hat, I am well aware of the plethora of codes governing the use of public buildings: planning provisions, building controls, liquor licensing and fire safety certification. I am nervous, however, that we are adding another layer of bureaucracy. There should be a fundamental revision of the present codes, some of which date back to the 1840s, such as the liquor licensing code. The dancing codes, which date from the 1930s, should also be revised. God knows what the legislators of that time would have to say about where and to what we should be dancing.

A fundamental reassessment of the ability to take effective action at a concert is required. On a live album by The Doors, recorded in Los Angeles, Jim Morrison, of all people, can be heard saying that the fire marshall said people had to return to their seats or he would close the place down. That is what we need here, the fire officer or the gardaí must be able to say at a moment's notice that a venue should be closed down and take effective action. We must be able to respond quickly to unfortunate events such as those that occurred in the Point Depot.

Reforms should be carried out under the auspices of local authorities and the fire officers. Fundamental changes are required so the different agencies can work together. The gardaí deal with liquor licensing and must review plans at the courts. They do not have a background in reading plans so how can they enforce legislation in that area? Planners, conversely, have little control over liquor licensing, demonstrating the many conflicts in existing legislation. While this Bill is a step in the right direction, there must be a more fundamental revision.

I like going to venues where people are crammed close together, be it in Fibber Magee's on Parnell Street or elsewhere. There is a danger in going too far with regulation. I went to a concert given by the Buena Vista Social Club in Smithfield where the audience were put into pens all the way up through the space in the square and there was very little atmosphere at a gig that should have been full of emotion, passion and love of music. Instead we were corralled into enclosures. A balance must be struck and the legislation goes some way towards that but we must review the wider legislation governing behaviour at public events while also dealing with the specifics in this Bill. I look forward to tabling amendments on behalf of the Green Party on Committee Stage.

Mr. Connolly

I welcome this Bill as an innovative measure to license indoor entertainment events and cater appropriately for issues such as crowd control planning and safety of patrons and spectators. While the Bill largely deals with the licensing process for the holding of certain indoor events and the development of a code of practice for safety at indoor concerts, I am happy to note that the duty of care which devolves to the promoters and organisers of such indoor events is afforded a statutory foundation. Had this Bill been in force at the time of the Stardust disaster and the Bundoran Central Hotel fire neither venue would have qualified for a licence on fire safety considerations alone.

Crowd management is one of the cornerstones of the Bill in terms of patron safety. Section 10(1) and (2) refer, in particular, to the statutory duty which makes it incumbent on the licensee to take all reasonable care to ensure the safety of persons attending the event. Conversely, there is also a statutory duty on all attending the event to conduct themselves in such a manner as not to expose others to danger as a consequence of their actions in so far as is reasonably possible.

Efficient crowd management results in enhanced experiences for performers, fans and the attendance in general. I suggest that the drawing up of a code of conduct for spectators by an applicant for a licence be included in the Bill as a prerequisite for the issue of a licence. The code can be printed in the programme or on posters or signs hung close to the box office. Consideration should also be given to emergency procedures for the following: drinking or possession of alcoholic beverages; possession, use or sale of drugs; bomb threats; medical emergencies; equipment failures; power failures and plans from emergency evacuation.

I note that the fire authority will be required to have regard to the codes of practice for crowd safety at indoor concerts in assessing licence applications. In assessing an application for a licence section 6(3) (c) provides that the fire authority shall have regard to the provision of adequate facilities for the health and welfare of patrons attending the indoor event, including the adequacy of sanitary facilities. In the past such a provision has obviously been honoured more in the breach than in the observance. Since sanitary facilities at many venues up and down the country leave much to be desired, I trust this subsection will be rigidly enforced with high standards being sought rather than merely adequate provision.

In addressing the issues of crowd management and public safety and considering the merits or demerits of licence application, the Bill makes a valuable contribution towards having in place an up-to-date and comprehensive licensing system for indoor events for the foreseeable future.

Mr. F. McGrath

I congratulate the Acting Chairman on being in the Chair. It is refreshing to see a member of the Technical Group chairing the procedures of the 29th Dáil. I believe this is his second occasion and perhaps it is a symbol for the future.

Acting Chairman

Go raibh maith agat.

Mr. F. McGrath

I welcome the opportunity to address the House on the Licensing of Indoor Events Bill, 2001. In essence the Bill arises from the need to implement the recommendation of the Hamilton committee on crowd control. The purpose of the Bill is to make provision for the licensing of certain indoor events by the fire authorities. The Bill also provides for the strengthening of the enforcement provisions of the Fire Services Act, 1981. I would like to dedicate my speech to the families and victims of the terrible Stardust fire. I represent that area and it is essential that we never forget the pain and suffering of the Stardust families. At the time of that tragedy the country was overcome with grief and it is up to us now as legislators to ensure that this never happens again.

By the way, it is not totally up to the fire authorities or the Government to ensure public safety and fire safety. A collective effort is needed, involving the public, owners of premises, organisers of event, the Garda, the fire authorities and local authorities. We all have a duty to ensure that indoor events are safe for our friends, families and neighbours. Sitting on the fence is not an option in regard to public safety in these types of events.

Section 20 provides that fire authorities may make arrangements to carry out the licensing function jointly or to provide assistance to other fire authorities. I had the recent honour of attending a cross-Border event on fire safety where both fire services, North and South, under the direction of the Minister of State, Deputy Cullen, came together in Marino to work on fire safety initiatives to save and protect lives. These are the types of projects that must be welcomed and developed on the island because they make common sense. As far as I am concerned, I cannot wait for the day when we will have one good strong fire service on the whole island. We have to ensure we get the right people into our fire services and, above all, pay them well. The treatment of fire fighters in Britain, where there was a recent strike, is a disgrace. We should all support them in their campaign for a decent wage and we should ensure that all our fire fighters are well looked after. These people risk their lives for our communities and this should be recognised in their wages and their terms and conditions of employment. This is an essential part of this debate.

Section 18 provides that fines imposed by a court will accrue to the local authority. This is common sense as all local authorities need more funds to develop their services in the interest of all our people. Funding of local government has become a major issue in recent years. Section 18 provides a creative way of funding. These imaginative ideas should be tried in all Departments in the State.

In Part 3, amendment of Fire Services Act, 1981, the definition of "building" is clearly defined to include "structures or erections". This will provide the fire authority with the flexibility to serve notices on parts of the buildings. This is a progressive step in the interests of fire safety.

Section 26(a) and (b) put beyond doubt the duty of persons in control, whether an outbreak of fire has occurred, to ensure the safety of persons on their premises. Section 26(b) strengthens the status of advice given by a fire authority and strengthens its inspection powers. I welcome these developments in fire safety, but let us remember the families and victims of the Stardust fire in Artane. Let us dedicate all our fire safety legislation to these people and to the other victims around the country and ensure that this legislation means something in practical terms for the ordinary people of this country.

Mr. O'Connor

I compliment Deputy McGrath on reminding us of that terrible event. I remember that Saturday morning very well and I compliment him on the manner in which he raised it. I wish the Chairman well. Even though I have been here 160 days, I have not had the opportunity previously of speaking in a debate at which the Minister, Deputy Cullen, was present. He is a politician for whom I have great regard. I am very impressed by the progressive manner in which he is attacking his brief. I wish him every success with the difficult issues he will have to tackle within his remit.

I am particularly pleased to welcome this Bill which will give effect to the recommendations of the Hamilton Committee report. When it comes to public safety and crowd management, it is necessary to be vigilant and ensure that we do not become observers of or, worse, participants in a tragic event. With the increased popularity of large entertainment events and festivals all over the country and the marketing of these occasions as an ideal leisure weekend, more and more people are attending. Organisers are clearly aware of the economic benefits to both themselves and the local economy and will try to accommodate the maximum number. With our unreliable weather, indoor facilities in marquees, purpose-built halls or pubs will always be a necessary requirement for such events. The need for the fire services to vet and, where appropriate, licence these events is an essential part of the support that the State should ensure exists to protect all our citizens. The licensing of indoor events in terms of crowd control and safety procedures may appear intrusive to some but, in the event of an emergency, such procedures save people from injury or even fatality.

The Bill provides that certain indoor events will require a licence. While not wishing to increase costs to either operators or the public, I urge the Minister to extend the need for such a licence to as broad a range of events as possible. I am aware that all indoor events take place in buildings with the necessary planning permission. I have on occasion attended events where the number of people in attendance was excessive and information as to what to do in an emergency was minimal. Unlike my colleagues I am unable to rattle off a whole range of popular events I have attended, but I do go to the odd event. I ventured out a few weeks ago to the Point to see Cliff Richard, which was a good event. I had the opportunity to see how good crowd control can be and how the initiative of staff can be brought into play to avert the danger of a potential crush. During the interval, as people wanted to access the facilities, buy things and relax for a few minutes, a lot of people suddenly converged on one particular spot. The initiative of the staff that night was second to none. I am not suggesting there was any danger, but the staff were responsive. It is good for the public and all of us who go out to be able to have confidence in what is going on about us.

The ratio of people at any event, whether in a large commercial building, local committee or sports club or the lounge area of the local pub, should be in proportion to the space available so that all can have a good time and enjoy themselves safely. In addition, the requirement to point out the safety arrangements and emergency exits to those attending an event should be mandatory, and I am glad that is often done. At a function I attended a couple of weeks ago which the Taoiseach also attended, the master of ceremonies, despite the kind of event it was, went through that process. That is good and positive. There is no reason why there should not be an announcement over the sound system at every event, similar to that already used in theatres and cinemas.

The proposed issuing of a licence for one year against a specific application which details the facilities provided at a particular venue is both fair and reasonable. I hope the Minister will explore the possibility of authorising the Garda Síochána to carry out random inspections of licensed events to ensure the numbers in attendance are within agreed limits. To facilitate spot checks, operators should be required to operate numbered and dated tickets for issue to attendees through public and on-site notices, requested to seek the entrance tickets when not offered one, and to make that very clear through the notices.

I hope the Minister and his officials are placing the effectiveness of this Bill squarely on the fire service with specific performance indicators as to the delivery of the service to the applicant and the right of appeal to the District Court where the applicant is unhappy with the decision of the fire service. I hope that in this period of budgetary constraints the fire service will have in place before the Bill is signed all the necessary manpower and resources to deliver a quality customer service to applicants and, more important, to the people who will be attending licensed events. Too often in the past good legislation passed in this House has been let down by our inability to provide the supports necessary to make it work, or the delay in setting up the full supports has come back to embarrass us all.

The codes of practice for indoor events must be both plain and effective with the operator having to go that extra mile to ensure everyone's safety. The ability of local authorities to issue a notice of cessation where an event is planned and where the necessary licence had not been granted adds further strength to the effectiveness of this Bill. It is important that those of us who represent major population centres have an opportunity to debate these issues and to contribute to various discussions on legislation coming before this House. That is why I am happy to have been able to participate this morning. Like other colleagues, I bring to this House my experience of living in a major population centre. As I go about my business in Tallaght, Greenhills, Templeogue and Firhouse, I listen to what my constituents are saying. They are very clear about the business to which this Bill relates and they want us to represent their concerns. We read every day in the media about people's concerns about the matters covered by the Bill. For that reason I am happy to support it. The technical sections of the Bill and the amendments to the Fire Services Act, 1981 will further strengthen its effectiveness. I wish the Minister well. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern and wish him well in his position. I commend this Bill to the House.

Mr. McCormack

The Hamilton Committee was established in 1989 following the high profile tragedy at a football stadium in Hillsborough. The committee examined standards in relation to safety, including fire safety, overcrowding, violence, structural standards and so on. The committee made more than 70 recommendations. However, this Bill deals mainly with the fire safety regulations in relation to indoor leisure pursuits. It has taken 13 years from the time the Hamilton Committee was set up to have the legislation on the floor of the Dáil. That is an inordinate length of time for an issue as pressing and vital as this.

Like Deputy O'Connor, I too listen to my constituents on these matters. I gather from my own offspring and from other young people I meet in the constituency that security and crowd control at concerts and events often leaves much to be desired. While stewards and those in charge act in the best interests of participants and those who attend events, their actions sometimes leave much to be desired. I did not notice our spokesperson giving a lecture. Deputy Cuffe is very sensitive if he feels the Fine Gael spokesperson was lecturing him on what goes on at concerts. Members of Fine Gael live in the real world in the same way as members of other parties. Fine Gael members meet their constituents regularly and have families of their own. I have four children who regularly attend such events. When we speak in the Dáil, we speak from our experience and reflect the views of our constituents. The Fine Gael spokesperson was simply putting on record what happens at concerts and other events and there should be no sensitivity about that.

There is greater international influence on our young people regarding behavioural experience and attitudes at pop concerts. Whether we like it or not, we must address the changing attitude of young people. They now have an entirely different mindset from when I was young and attended similar events. They have more disposable income and are more mobile and adventurous. If control measures have to be included in legislation to cater for changing attitudes, it should be done and there should be no apologies for doing so.

I broadly support the Bill. Much of its emphasis is on premises but there should be more emphasis on organisers and promoters, and where their responsibilities rest. It is fine to implement regulations on structures and buildings but there should also be regulations governing promoters. It is often not clear who promotes or organises a concert. People know the venue and who is playing but may not know the organiser. Organisers also have responsibilities and they should be regulated in the same way as premises, and that should be included in the legislation.

The Bill deals mainly with indoor venues for concerts and so on. I do not know where the line is drawn between an indoor and an outdoor venue. Is a venue deemed to be outdoor if it does not have a door? What of a sporting arena like Croke Park? Does its stand constitute a venue covered in the legislation? Are we dealing with indoor events only? How does the Bill relate to partly outdoor and partly indoor events? Will the Minister address those questions when he replies? From my experience and that of my constituents, crowd control at outdoor events is often more lacking than that at indoor events. I would like to know how many of the 73 recommendations in the Hamilton report have been taken up in drawing up this Bill, although that report dealt with much more than indoor events.

Section 3 states that the expenses incurred by the Minister in the administration of this legislation shall, to such extent as may be sanctioned by the Minister for Finance, be paid out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas. I do not understand that. It covers the administration of the Bill, but is responsibility for the measures contained in the Bill only that of the owner of the relevant premises, or does the responsibility also relate to those organising or promoting the event? If much work needs to be done to ensure the aims of the Bill are achieved, does that expense lie solely with the owners of the premises?

There is a necessary but undesirable practice outlined in section 4. It states that the "Minister may, by regulations, provide for any matter referred to in this Act" and that "without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1), the Minister may, by regulation, prescribe any activity or class of activity that takes place wholly or mainly within a building, in respect of which members of the public may or may not attend, to be an event for the purposes of paragraph (b) of the definition of “indoor event” in section 2(1).”. This Bill will be passed by the Dáil and in time this or any future Minister may, by regulation, change the Bill without recourse to the Dáil. That may be a necessary practice but it is a risky one. This does not apply to this Bill alone. Where major regulations are to be introduced, those matters should have to come back before the Dáil or at least be considered by the relevant Dáil committee, in this case the Select Committee on Environment and Local Government.

Section 6(1) states that a fire authority shall determine an application for a licence as soon as practicable but not later than 28 days after all requirements, including requirements prescribed under section 5(8), have been complied with or within such other period, as provided for in subsection (2). The Bill then states, at section 6(2), that the 28 day period can be extended where it is not possible or appropriate to determine the application within the period and shall specify the date before which or the period within which the fire authority intends the application shall be determined. That will present great difficulty if the regulation refers to all indoor events, as events sometimes have to be organised at shorter notice than 28 days. For example, if a general election was called – we must always be ready for such events in the present climate – a convention might have to be called at shorter notice.

Debate adjourned.

Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.