Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Nov 2002

Vol. 558 No. 2

Leaders' Questions.

Mr. Kenny:

The programme for Government, in its section dealing with justice, reads: "We stand for a society where all people can feel safe in their communities, businesses and homes." The publication of statistics relevant to crime in this country is a shocking indictment of the society we have become and the inability of Government to cope with the situation. Headline crime, which includes homicide, assault, sexual offences, arson, drugs, larcenies, burglaries, robbery and fraud, has increased by 18%, with a range of other increases in murder, armed robbery, burglaries and larcenies.

I listened to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform this morning on a national radio programme, who seemed to be more like a parent in despair than a Minister for Justice. He admitted in respect of an unprovoked assault on a member of his family that he did not report this crime to the Garda because it would be a waste of Garda time, despite the fact that there was no description available. Does this mean that the 2,000 extra gardaí promised by the Government in its programme will not now be employed to deal with crime? Does it mean that the figures published are just the tip of the iceberg when the Minister himself says on national radio that a crime in respect of a member of his family was not reported to the Garda because it would be a waste of Garda time?

I would like the Taoiseach to respond to the central statement of the programme for Government that people should be safe in their houses, businesses and communities. I remind him that the Fianna Fáil programme for this year reads: "We will break up the gangs involved in serious crime, especially robberies and drug trafficking, and reduce random and gratuitous violence caused by excessive alcohol." I would like to see how that squares up from the Government's perspective in view of the statistics published this morning.

The Taoiseach:

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform yesterday published the Garda Síochána's annual report for last year, the contents of which confirm the preliminary statistics published by the Minister in July. The headline crime figure has increased which, as the Minister already said, is both worrying and disappointing. The position in regard to headline offences is of particular concern because it indicates that the number of headline offences recorded last year increased over the previous year, which is disappointing. The additional numbers of gardaí recruited in recent years are now fully in place. Some 11,800 is the current figure. A range of legislative measures have been introduced, including a number of specialist units to deal with various levels of criminality and public disorder. There is public order legislation and a review of the licensing Acts. We must continue to deal with these issues. I do not think it is a question of legislation, even though there is more legislation planned, because most of the legislation is already in place.

There are issues concerning drugs offences. The increases reflect the successful results of operations carried out by the Garda. People will be aware of the success rate against criminality and drugs gangs, which must continue in other areas. The figures relating to crime of a sexual nature are certainly worrying. I know the Minister is doing all he can in this regard. The courts have handed down very tough sentences and are dedicated to doing so.

The Government is determined to continue to take the necessary measures to deal with criminal behaviour. The introduction of the PULSE system means we are getting the proper facts in regard to recording crime rates. In the past there was the argument that crime was not reported, but we are now getting a much more accurate assessment of the level of crime. As worrying as that may be, it is better to be aware of the facts. The Garda crime detection record continues to be excellent. It has an impressive detection rate by international standards, which includes 87% of homicide cases, 75% of assault cases and 72% of cases of sexual offences. We must continue this success in all areas.

I am not trying to paint a picture other than one of concern. We must deal with the issues as they are, put in the effort and continue to use the enormous resources already in place.

Mr. Kenny:

The problem is that the word of the Government cannot be believed. Murders are up by 33%, sexual offences by 81%, assaults by 83%, drug offences by 33%, armed robberies by 14%, burglaries by 9% and larceny is up to 11,454 cases.

An Ceann Comhairle:

Has the Deputy a question?

Mr. Allen:

Wait for it.

Mr. Kenny:

The figures for violent assaults in Dublin are now five times higher than three years ago and detection rates are falling. Is it true that the Book of Estimates shows a zero increase in the Garda budget for next year, which equates with zero tolerance a few years ago? How does the Government, particularly the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, intend to deal with this situation when there is no increase in the Garda budget and there will not be 2,000 extra gardaí as promised, when detection rates are falling and violent crime is five times higher than three years ago? The Government cannot be believed on crime. How does the Taoiseach intend in the programme for Government to deal with this?

An Ceann Comhairle:

Deputy Kenny, your minute is concluded.

Mr. Kenny:

The Government says it will complete the programme of modernising prisons and providing extra places. How does that tally with the closure of Shanganagh? The Government cannot be believed on the central issue of the protection of people in our society.

Mr. Durkan:

Everything is zero but crime.

The Taoiseach:

The Deputy will know that when extra gardaí are taken on, as almost 2,000 have been taken on in recent years, they have to be paid for. They are in the base figure and the enormous increases given to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform have allowed those gardaí to pass fully through Templemore. We have a higher number of gardaí than ever at 11,800.

An enormous amount of money has been put into the prison capital programme over the past five years and the programme has been completed, including the work at Cloverhill Prison, Mountjoy Prison and women's prison and Portlaoise Prison. That has continued. Shanganagh was opened in 1969 as an open detention centre for males between 16 and 21 years of age. I recognise the good work of the staff there over the years. However, it has become increasingly difficult to identify young male offenders suitable for this type of open prison.

Mr. Gilmore:

That is not so. Seven were identified.

An Ceann Comhairle:

Deputy Gilmore, this is leaders' questions and Deputy Kenny is the only Member entitled to ask a question.

The Taoiseach:

The average occupancy was 30 inmates last year and that has fallen further this year.

Mr. Timmins:

Because the Government took them out of it.

The Taoiseach:

The annual cost of keeping an offender at Shanganagh last year was €127,000, which is higher than the annual cost anywhere else. Bearing in mind the full implementation of the Children Act, 2001, 16 and 17 year old inmates must be completely segregated in the prison system. The proceeds of the sale of that unit will go back into the prison system for other renewals.

The complete figures show that there are problems in some areas. We will work on the legislative base and try to improve on this issue in coming years. That is what was stated in the programme for Government and it will be continued.

Mr. Rabbitte:

We are talking about the crime report for 2001. Has the Taoiseach forgotten the background of zero tolerance that brought him to office in 1997? This is the legacy of the Minister for zero tolerance. Has the Taoiseach forgotten the statement by the former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, when he came to office, to the effect that he would be judged at the end of his term by "whether people felt safer on the streets and in their homes". Deputy Kenny has rhymed off the figures that have finally been released: an 83% increase in sexual assaults; an 81% increase in assaults; an 18% increase in headline crime; a 33% increase in murders; and a 14% increase in armed robbery. Is this the legacy of the Minister for zero tolerance? Are these the figures that he suppressed earlier this year when he admitted to my colleague, Deputy Howlin, on "Morning Ireland" that he had the preliminary figures? He then sought to suppress them coming up to the general election.

Mr. McGinley:

Like everything else.

Mr. Rabbitte:

Is it not very odd that the new Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, who has an opinion on everything-—

Mr. Cullen:

Like the Deputy, radio Rabbitte.

Mr. Rabbitte:

—and spends a lot of his time re-branding the Progressive Democrats, is acting as an estate agent for Shanganagh? He thinks it is a risible matter that we have this level of crime on our streets, that old people do not feel safe in their homes and people are besieged in their homes in some disadvantaged communities. The former Minister thinks he can share in the risibility with the new Minister. The former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, is a disgrace. He completely neglected his portfolio.

An Ceann Comhairle:

The Deputy's two minutes are up.

Mr. Rabbitte:

He drove from Cahirciveen twice a week and signed whatever was put on the desk before him. He took no initiatives and this is his disgraceful legacy.

The Taoiseach:

I am not sure if the Deputy asked me a question.

Mr. Howlin:

Would the Taoiseach like him to restate it?

The Taoiseach:

I will restate what I previously said. These figures were published in preliminary form as soon as they were available, to correct Deputy Rabbitte.

Mr. Howlin:

That is untrue.

The Taoiseach:

The Government has endeavoured to resource the Garda Síochána to the maximum extent and has done an enormous job in extending the number of prison places, updating prisons, putting extra judges, facilities and staff into the courts and providing a range of services from the Garda—

Mr. Howlin:

They have all failed.

The Taoiseach:

They have not failed. Crime is up but there have been numerous dedicated systems brought in by the Garda in disadvantaged communities to deal with criminality in one form or other. This is making a major impact in many areas. Much crime in the figures is related to closing time for discos and licensed premises. That is what the figures show.

Mr. Quinn:

Change the laws.

The Taoiseach:

The number of assaults which cause harm has increased markedly and that is worrying. That has climbed over the past few years as have the figures for sexual offences, another major issue. The detection rate has improved massively and is well ahead of other jurisdictions. There are issues to deal with and they are set out in the programme for Government and the legislative programme. I have no doubt that the current Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will have an impact also.

Mr. Rabbitte:

Is it not time the Taoiseach admitted that the zero tolerance claim was a complete sham? Will he admit that it is the first responsibility of Government that citizens feel safe in society? That manifestly is not the case. Why is the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform deliberately running down Shanganagh?

Mr. McDowell:

I am closing it.

Mr. Rabbitte:

Why is he deliberately running it down with a view to selling it when there is a need for rehabilitation in this kind of unit? Meanwhile, a new prison for youths is being built at Mountjoy when any expert in the area could tell us that there is a necessity for rehabilitation. The Minister did not get one penny. He came to the House last night and had great fun at the expense of the McBrearty's and others. The Minister engaged in L & H debating tactics. He did not get one penny in the Book of Estimates.

An Ceann Comhairle:

The Deputy's minute is concluded.

Mr. Rabbitte:

Is it not the case that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform did not get one penny for the 2,000 additional gardaí?

An Ceann Comhairle:

The Deputy has gone over his allotted time.

Mr. Rabbitte:

What does the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform make of the report released about the fabrication of crime statistics in Waterford? The Garda said it could not use the PULSE system but it had no intention to mislead. There is no evidence that the Government understands the problems as Ministers pass through the streets in their darkened Mercedes.

The Taoiseach:

The Government has spent €80 million on the PULSE system and it is working extremely effectively.

Ms Burton:

It does not work.

The Taoiseach:

The Labour Party has one leader, let him speak.

Mr. Stagg:

Fianna Fáil has two leaders and a couple of contenders.

Mr. Howlin:

Progressive Democrats first.

The Taoiseach:

The PULSE system notes all the crimes that are recorded. That is a good thing as we know what we have to deal with. In the past we did not have recorded crime figures. There are now 20 inmates and 47 prison officers at Shanganagh.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle:

Deputy Rabbitte, the Taoiseach is entitled to exactly the same courtesy as you were afforded by the House. He must be allowed to speak without interruption.

Mr. Rabbitte:

The Taoiseach deliberately contrived to misrepresent the situation at Shanganagh.

The Taoiseach:

It clearly makes sense to move the prison from Shanganagh and reinvest the money in the Prisons Service. The small number of inmates at Shanganagh can be accommodated within the prison system without difficulty.

Mr. Gilmore:

What about the inmates who should be at Shanganagh?

The Taoiseach:

The Minister has clearly set out the systems and the supports he wants to give in the reform of the Garda. I have every confidence that his plans will be successful. At different times this House is very fast to criticise the Garda in its dealing with crime while permanently finding time to criticise the force for the way it deals with it. The Garda should be allowed to deal with it.

Mr. Rabbitte:

That is an old chestnut.

Mr. J. Higgins:

In recent days, acres of newsprint have been filled with details of the alleged rip-off of €5,000 from a semi-State company. I agree with the Taoiseach when he says there should be answers. Channel 4 television news last night highlighted an incomparably more serious rip-off of the taxpayer. There is probably €1 billion worth of gas in the Corrib gasfield. In the 1980s, the Taoiseach's former colleague, Mr. Burke, varied the licence for the oil companies moving into that field removing the automatic stake of the State and giving it to them without a penny in royalties. In 1992 the Taoiseach, as Minister for Finance, reduced the tax take from these companies to a derisory 25%. The Minister, Deputy Fahey, and his Department intervened in the planning process in Mayo and bullied the planners and some of the local people in attempting to ram through the plans of Enterprise Oil.

We know that Marathon Oil and Pearse Construction are involved in the project and donated large amounts of money to Fianna Fáil. We know that Enterprise Oil was a regular guest of the Taoiseach in his tent at the Galway Races. Will the Taoiseach give us the truth on this matter? What kind of huckster's deal was made between Fianna Fáil and the oil companies that handed over a fabulous natural resource without a single cent in royalties being paid to the people? What was the content of the negotiations? How much did the parties to the negotiations get in donations from these companies? Can we have as quick an investigation into this as the one we are promised in the cigars and whiskey affair? We must let the people know why their fabulous wealth has been given to these private companies while they must pay top euro to buy gas from them.

The Taoiseach:

The Corrib field is being developed under the 1992 licensing terms, passed by this House. The field was not discovered until 1996 and there is no linkage. Irish licences are similar to those operating in other European countries such as the UK, Denmark and Holland. While the tax rate is lower than in those countries, it reflects the significantly lower success rate of island gas exploration. Unfortunately this continues to be almost zero. It is great to rattle the sabre and speak of deals and cosy cartels, but unfortunately this country has been singularly unsuccessful in most of the area of exploration. The rights and wrongs in Mayo will be sorted out in the planning process.

One allegation was made against the Minister, Deputy Fahey, and he has brought it to my attention – I believe it was shown on television last night but I did not see the programme. The Minister has told me that he had no direct dealings, good, bad or indifferent, with the company or a planning committee. Of course, officials from the Department were involved in the issue, as was Deputy Fahey, as Minister responsible. He has spoken in this House on the issue. No pressure was applied regarding planning permission for the terminal and it has gone through the process. I met the residents in this area and know they played an active part in the process.

The details of donations to my party, or any party, are included in the returns sent to the Public Offices Commission.

Mr. J. Higgins:

There is a small by-road in Mayo that has been labelled the "Bertie bypass" because the Taoiseach's entourage was diverted on to it to avoid local protesters. Fortunately, they did not catch up with the Taoiseach.

Nach bhfuil a fhios ag an Taoiseach go bhfuil muintir Iorrais agus muintir na tíre scanallaithe faoi an dóigh a thug Fianna Fáil an tseirbhís nadúrtha i bpáirc gháis na Coiribe do chomhlachtaí móra gan pingin amháin, agus cén fáth?

The Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources told me in the last session that there was no attempt to independently assess the value of the Corrib gasfield. In my youth I went to the Dingle fair every month with my father to sell cows. The poorest and most uneducated farmer knew exactly the value of his cattle – if he did not he would not survive.

Mr. C. Lenihan:

The Deputy is like the Dingle dolphin.

Mr. J. Higgins:

Why was no independent assessment carried out? Will it be done now and will the terms of this scandalous deal be varied?

The Taoiseach:

The environmental impact assessment for both the terminal and offshore were submitted according to the EU environmental impact assessment directive—

Mr. J. Higgins:

I did not ask about that.

An Ceann Comhairle:

The Deputy should resume his seat and allow the Taoiseach to continue.

The Taoiseach:

—and assessed by the marine vetting committee, MLVC, in consultation with two firms of consultants.

Mr. J. Higgins:

He is on another bypass.

The Taoiseach:

These recommendations were subsequently incorporated in the statutory approvals.

Mr. Quinn:

What is the Taoiseach hiding?

The Taoiseach:

Who is hiding anything?

Mr. Quinn:

Why does he not answer the question?

The Taoiseach:

I am not hiding anything, I am giving the factual information and answering the question.

An Ceann Comhairle:

I ask Deputy Quinn to leave the supplementary questions to Deputy Joe Higgins. It is wrong that a number of Members should try to frustrate any Member of this House.

Ms Shortall:

The Taoiseach dodged the question.

Mr. Howlin:

He has a prepared script no matter what the question.

Mr.

Kenny:

Tell us about the Dingle cows.

The Taoiseach:

The Deputy asked me about the planning allegations and the environmental impact assessment. He stated that Deputy Fahey, as Minister, told him there was no independent assessment. He asked me about the tax position in 1992 and I have answered those questions. He asked me about funding and I have answered that. If he wants to know who goes to the Fianna Fáil tent at the Galway Races, I would be very glad to bring him, but he would probably be abroad with his other friends. He asked me if I had met the local people. He said something about a bypass. I remember travelling along a coastal road, but the only bypass would have put me into the middle of the sea. I met the local people.

Mr. J. Higgins:

The Taoiseach was taken along by them.

The Taoiseach:

The local people brought me for a cup of tea.

An Ceann Comhairle:

The Taoiseach's one minute has concluded.

The Taoiseach:

The local people asked me if I would meet them in the local tavern, which I did. I and the local Deputy spent a long time talking to them. What else can I answer?

Mr. Kenny:

The Taoiseach was diverted from the point at which he should have been.