Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 28 Nov 2002

Vol. 558 No. 3

Order of Business.

The Tánaiste

It is proposed to take No. 14, motion re approval by Dáil Éireann of a Council framework decision on combating sexual exploitation of children and child pornography; No. 13, motion re membership of committee; No. 14a, motion re ministerial rota for parliamentary questions; No. 12a, Supplementary Estimates for Public Services, Vote 2; No. 2, European Communities (Amendment) Bill, 2002 [Seanad] – Second and Subsequent Stages; No. 12b, motion re approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the Treaty of Nice amending the Treaty on European Union, the treaties establishing the European Communities and certain related Acts; No. 27, Private Security Services Bill, 2001 – Second Stage, resumed; and No. 1, Dumping at Sea (Amendment) Bill, 2000 [Seanad] – Second Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. 14, 13, 14a and 12a shall be decided without debate and in the case of No. 12a any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith. Second and Subsequent Stages of No. 2 shall be taken today and the following arrangements shall apply: Second Stage to conclude at 1 p.m. if not previously concluded and Committee and Remaining Stages to conclude at 1.30 p.m. if not previously concluded. The proceedings thereon shall be brought to a conclusion by one question in each case which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Foreign Affairs. No. 12b shall be taken immediately on the conclusion of No. 2 and shall be decided without debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are three proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 14, 13, 14a and 12a without debate agreed?

Mr. Kenny

No. 12a is a list of Supplementary Estimates for expenditure for the remainder of this year and I protest that today the Government publishes the national spatial strategy, a development plan for the next 20 years, without inviting any Member of this House to the launch in the Royal Hospital Kilmainham. The Government does this having informed its backbenchers of the contents.

Mr. Timmins

Plus the media.

Mr. Kenny

It is an insult to the Members of this House that a major statement of public policy and development is being made outside Dáil Éireann.

Mr. Connaughton

It is contempt.

Mr. Kenny

The Ceann Comhairle will be aware that in other Parliaments there are strict regulations and rulings that no major announcement of this type should be made outside Parliament. This House and its elected Members should be the first to be informed of the development plan by the Minister and the Minister of State. It does down the House, the office of Ceann Comhairle and elected representatives from every party to have this major announcement made outside and without reference to the people who have to debate and pass legislation. I note the Minister's opening remarks to the launch refer to the Taoiseach, Ministers of State, ladies and gentlemen, but it seems Deputies did not receive an invitation. The Minister's speech describes how he will visit each region to spread the message.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss the spatial strategy here.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

That is the problem. What is Parliament for?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have allowed the Deputy to make his point.

Mr. Kenny

I do not want to discuss the spatial strategy now. I am asking a question of the Ceann Comhairle. He will be aware that in other Parliaments there is strict regulation to prevent this kind of activity.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy feels strongly about it, the matter can be referred to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Mr. Kenny

I feel very strongly about it because, as Deputy Cuffe said, it affects every city, town and parish.

Mr. Naughten

This House is being treated with contempt.

Mr. Rabbitte

One of the two matters I wished to raise has been dealt with well by Deputy Kenny – that this happens is a diminishing of Parliament. I have heard one Minister recently criticise sections of the media for reduced or, in some cases, non-existent coverage of the Oireachtas, but that is being led by members of the Cabinet, most of whom cannot even manage to come to the House for the Order of Business anymore.

Given the amount of time the Nice treaty took up on the public affairs agenda over the past year, it is not appropriate that motion 12b be put to the House without debate. I see no reason the Tánaiste would not be prepared to agree to a short debate on the formal passing of the motion.

Mr. Sargent

I wish to refer to No. 12a because the situation raised by my colleague, Deputy Cuffe, regarding the spatial strategy ties in with the Supplementary Estimates as an indication of a back to front approach from Government regarding proper planning and financial management. We had the national development plan and now, long afterwards, we are beginning to hear about the spatial strategy. I object to the manner in which the Government is planning the country financially and spatially and suggest that the debate on spatial strategy should be held in this House. I ask you, a Cheann Comhairle – unfortunately you did not facilitate Deputy Cuffe – to think again and facilitate a debate on the spatial strategy which is not mentioned on the Order of Business and yet it is the news of the day.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

This morning certain Members of this House had the opportunity to have a preview of the national spatial strategy proposals in the Davenport Hotel. This document has national implications for constituencies throughout the length and breadth of the jurisdiction and impacts on Border counties and on an island-wide basis. I find it incredible that there was an opportunity for the select few to preview the detail of these proposals when Members of this House returned by the overall electorate only received copies in their pigeon holes minutes before the commencement of business this morning. This is unacceptable. Is this a national spatial strategy proposal, or is it a Fianna Fáil-PD proposal? Let us call it what it is. It is not national because the elected voices of a significant section of the people represented in this House are not privy—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have the opportunity to discuss the content of the spatial strategy document. Just a brief point on why the Deputy is opposing the Order of Business.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

—to the opportunity for a preliminary introduction. We have not received from the Government or you, a Cheann Comhairle, an indication that we will have the opportunity today to address this important matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

Before I call the Tánaiste, Deputy Rabbitte's point on No. 12b will be taken on item 3.

Mr. Allen

On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, before you take the vote.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is speaking. Will Deputy Allen please resume his seat.

Mr. Allen

On a point of order—

An Ceann Comhairle

On Deputy Sargent's point about Deputy Cuffe, his request under Standing Order 31 was not in accordance with Standing Orders. That is why it was ruled out of order. I call the Tánaiste.

Mr. Sargent

It is urgent.

Mr. Allen

On a point of order—

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Allen, I have called the Tánaiste. I will take the point of order after the Tánaiste and before I put the question, assuming it is a point of order.

Mr. Allen

Are there double standards in this House?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, withdraw the remark.

Mr. Allen

I asked before the Tánaiste.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy did not ask. I said before I call the Tánaiste—

Mr. Allen

A Cheann Comhairle—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will not be challenged on this issue. The Chair has ruled. The Deputy will withdraw the remark that there are double standards in the House.

Mr. Allen

Surely a point of order comes first.

An Ceann Comhairle

A point of order does not come first. I called the Tánaiste.

Mr. Allen

On a point of order—

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Deputy Allen please resume his seat when the Chair is on its feet.

Mr. Allen

The real Dáil is up in the Royal Dublin this morning.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, resume your seat. Now withdraw your remark that there are double standards.

Mr. Allen

May I ask you a question?

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy wants to ask me a question he can come to my office. Will the Deputy withdraw the remark that there are double standards.

Mr. Allen

I will withdraw the remark if it keeps you happy.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you. I call the Tánaiste.

The Tánaiste

As regards the spatial strategy which is being published at the moment, it would be a good idea for this House to have an opportunity to debate that strategy and perhaps-—

Deputies

A good idea.

Mr. Rabbitte

Well done.

Mr. Timmins

Two days after the newspapers got it.

The Tánaiste

I know it is a long time since Members opposite were in Government but the practice has not changed much as Deputy Rabbitte will be aware.

Mr. M. Higgins

That is nonsense. That is a joke.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste without interruption, please.

The Tánaiste

It is not nonsense. Perhaps the Whips could discuss that.

Mr. M. Higgins

It is not a matter for the Whips. As Leader of the House, the Tánaiste—

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

There is utter contempt for this House.

The Tánaiste

In relation to the matter raised by Deputy Rabbitte—

Mr. M. Higgins

A Cheann Comhairle—

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Higgins, allow the Tánaiste without interruption, please.

The Tánaiste

As regards the point made by Deputy Rabbitte on No. 12b, No. 2 is related. The European Communities (Amendment) Bill provides for some technical changes to allow us to ratify the Nice treaty. I see no reason the two issues cannot be discussed. If that is in order I think they can be discussed together.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Allen on a point of order, assuming it is a point of order.

Mr. Allen

That is for the Chair to judge. May I ask the Tánaiste why Opposition spokespersons were barred from this morning's event?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order. The Deputy will have to find another way of raising it.

Mr. Allen

I was never barred from a pub, a hotel or anything in my life, but I was told I was not welcome this morning.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, it is not a point of order, Deputy. The Chair has ruled on it.

Mr. Allen

It is matter for the equality agency to see—

Question: "That the proposal for dealing with Nos. 14, 13, 14a and 12a, without debate, be agreed to”, put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with the European Communities (Amendment) Bill, 2002, agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with item 12b without debate agreed? Deputy Rabbitte raised a point on that, to which the Tánaiste responded.

The Tánaiste

We have facilitated with a debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Rabbitte

May I ask the Tánaiste if there are any plans in Government to provide assistance for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. There are 43 Bills awaiting publication. The only assistance he has is a Minister of State who job shares with the Sunday Independent and he needs assistance.

An Ceann Comhairle

On legislation, Deputy. I am finishing the Order of Business.

Mr. Rabbitte

This is a Minister under pressure who needs assistance. He has promised 43 Bills. He is going around selling property, advertising Shanganagh and advising every other Minister on how to do his or her job. The only Minister of State he has is taking up two days writing for the Sunday Independent. Are there any plans in Government to provide assistance to the Minister, Deputy McDowell? It is an important matter. It is about legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not about legislation.

Mr. Timmins

I wish to raise two issues. Several months ago on the Order of Business I raised with the Taoiseach a judgment regarding a judicial review against Meath County Council, in which Mr. Justice Quirke stated that the strategic planning guidelines were flawed.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have only 20 minutes and I am trying to facilitate as many Members as possible.

Mr. Timmins

The Taoiseach told me they would be addressed in the spatial strategy but they are not. The spatial strategy makes reference to the strategic planning guidelines but makes no reference to changing them.

Is the Tánaiste aware that a second strain of CJD has been discovered in the London Institute of Neurology and that researchers have requested that a survey be carried out of all tonsils removed to try to assess the danger arising from this?

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy, it must also be related to the Order of Business.

Mr. Timmins

Will she instruct the Minister for Health and Children and the Minister for Agriculture and Food to see if there are any ramifications for us.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is the third time this week that the Deputy has raised an issue that is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Timmins

The Tánaiste might like to respond.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

On promised legislation, is the Tánaiste aware there are now more people sleeping rough in Dublin than in London.

An Ceann Comhairle

A question appropriate to the Order of Business.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Yes, of course, and it is appropriate to legislation.

Local authority housing waiting lists continue to grow. Given that the average cost of a home in this State is now in excess of €200,000—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must ask about promised legislation.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

—and people in private rented accommodation are not protected by law, when will the long overdue Housing (Private Rented Sector) Bill come before this House?

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter has been dealt with twice this week. We must move on.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

What other legislation is proposed to address the scandal of homelessness and the wider housing crisis?

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter has been answered twice this week. The Deputy is being repetitive.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It is only fair, given the statistics announced on the scandalous reality of the homelessness of people in this city.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ó Caoláin is out of order. Deputy Costello on something appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Costello

Deputy Rabbitte indicated there are 43 Bills – I have not counted them – under the auspices of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on the Autumn schedule. The Minister then added another regarding the establishment of a statutory clerical abuse inquiry. His well oiled PR machine added another bringing the total to 45.

An Ceann Comhairle

A number of Deputies are offering and they cannot all be facilitated if we spend time with preambles.

Mr. Costello

Will the Tánaiste say if any legislation from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has been passed by this House in the six months since the election? Has this House passed a single Bill since this Government took office?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has not asked a question.

Mr. Costello

My query relates to proposed legislation. Has this House passed any Bill—

An Ceann Comhairle

To what Bill is the Deputy referring?

Mr. Rabbitte

Pick any one of the 43 listed on the Order Paper.

Mr. Costello

There are 43 of them on the Order Paper but I am referring specifically to No. 27 on today's Order Paper, Private Security Services Bill, 2001: Second Stage, which has been on the Order Paper for the past four weeks.

The Tánaiste

It is on today's Order Paper.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is down to be taken today, Deputy Costello.

Mr. M. Higgins

That is the most important of the 45 Bills.

Mr. Connaughton

It is a disgrace that the Taoiseach is not in this House on Thursdays to answer questions.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must ask about promised legislation.

Mr. Connaughton

That is a very important matter. Will legislation be necessary to implement all or part of the new national spatial strategy?

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Connaughton

Yes, it is. It is, I can assure the House, a Hans Christian Andersen production.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is anticipating questions that will arise this afternoon as Deputy Burton has a question down to the Minister for the Environment and Local Government in that regard.

Mr. Connaughton

Does the Tánaiste believe legislation is necessary? I am asking a straight question.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gormley on promised legislation.

Mr. Gormley

Will the Tánaiste outline the position regarding the pharmacy Bill? Does she accept that the lack of—

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter was already dealt with this week. The Deputy is being repetitive. The rules as applied to Deputy Ó Caoláin apply to Deputy Gormley also.

Mr. Gormley

I want to raise a specific issue. With respect, does the Tánaiste accept that the lack of regulation will lead a take-over of this sector by the multinationals?

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Stagg

The Ceann Comhairle does not appear to be able to see anybody sitting in this area.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a matter of proportionality. There is nobody who knows more about that than the Deputy.

Mr. Gormley

May I get a response to my question?

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not intend reading Standing Order No. 26 again this morning. Many of the contributions made this morning, as Deputies know, are not in accordance with Standing Order No. 26. We must have order in the House.

Mr. Gormley

This House is becoming irrelevant.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gormley must resume his seat when the Chair is speaking.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Does Deputy Gormley wish to leave the House?

Mr. Gormley

It is narrow-minded ideology. That is what it is about.

An Ceann Comhairle

Resume your seat, Deputy Gormley and show some respect for the Chair.

Mr. Hogan

The Tánaiste will be aware that approximately 500 jobs a day are being lost. Two hundred jobs have been lost in north Kilkenny today. There is rapid deterioration in our economic competitiveness. When will the Tánaiste introduce legislation to update the Redundancy Acts?

The Tánaiste

As I indicated to the House recently, the Government approved, in line with the review group's recommendations, the amendment of the Redundancy Acts which will be published as quickly as possible next year.

Mr. Sherlock

In view of the failure of the previous Government to introduce, as promised, a Bill to abolish ground rents will the Tánaiste say if this Government intends to introduce such a Bill?

The Tánaiste

Unfortunately, I must give the answer others have given for the past while. It is not possible to give the Deputy an indication in that regard.

Mr. S. Ryan

It shows a lack of commitment.

Mr. M. Higgins

The Tánaiste should ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform about that Bill also.

The Tánaiste

I will.

Mr. Sherlock

What is the answer to my question?

The Tánaiste

It is not possible to indicate when or if we will have legislation in that regard.

Mr. S. Ryan

It shows a lack of commitment.

Ms Enright

Given that a 12-year-old child with no criminal conviction was transferred from a special unit to a remand centre, does the Government intend to introduce legislation to provide adequate accommodation for such children?

The Minister for Education and Science has promised to provide greater transparency in the schools building programme and there have been suggestions that schools already on the list will not be covered by the legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order.

Ms Enright

Will legislation be introduced?

Mr. Durkan

That is a valid question.

Mr. Allen

On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, we are entitled to get an answer to the question.

The Tánaiste

The legislation has been passed and the Children Act is in the process of being implemented.

Mr. Gilmore

The Tánaiste said she thought it would a good idea to debate the national spatial strategy in the House. What is the Government's proposal for such a debate given that the next two weeks are likely to be devoted to the budget?

An Ceann Comhairle

A question, please.

Mr. Gilmore

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform promised the introduction of the Prison Services Bill in 2003. Will the Tánaiste ask the absent and exhausted Minister to postpone the disgraceful decision to close the only rehabilitative centre for young offenders until that Bill is published?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is appropriate to ask about a Bill; it is not appropriate to make a Second Stage speech.

Mr. Gilmore

I am asking about the Prison Services Bill.

The Tánaiste

It is not possible at this stage to indicate when the Prison Services Bill will be introduced. On the national spatial strategy, it would be appropriate that such a debate take place in this House.

Mr. Gilmore

When?

The Tánaiste

As soon as can be facilitated. The matter will be discussed by the Whips.

Mr. Gilmore

On the Prison Services Bill—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste has replied to that question. We are moving on to the next business.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

A number of Members wish to raise specific items. We cannot have a Second Stage debate on every item the House would like to discuss. Members should confine themselves to questions appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Gilmore

The legislative programme states the Bill will be taken in 2003; the Tánaiste says she does not know.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is being disorderly. His question was answered in accordance with Standing Orders.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Ceann Comhairle has no regard to the fact that questions properly asked on the Order of Business are not answered by the Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has no control over the answers given.

Mr. Rabbitte

We are entitled to get answers. The legislative programme states 2003, the Tánaiste says she does not know, what is the Government's position on this?

The Tánaiste

I answered this question. The heads of the Bill have not yet come to Government. I am not in a position to say when we will have the legislation.

Mr. Gilmore

That is an unacceptable answer.

Mr. Connolly

On promised legislation, will people with medical cards and needy patients be reimbursed in respect of transport costs to appointments in Tallaght Hospital?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order.

Mr. Naughten

On a point of order, I had been called prior to Deputy Connolly.

An Ceann Comhairle

My apologies.

Mr. Naughten

In light of the national spatial strategy published this morning and the fact that the Minister for Transport does not seem to be aware of it, when will Bill No. 122, the Transport (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill be introduced? The Minister for Transport is pulling up rail lines which service towns.

An Ceann Comhairle

What legislation is proposed on transport?

The Tánaiste

Prior EU approval is required. It is expected in late spring of next year.

Mr. Stagg

Given the report we received on crime figures this week and given the extract from these figures on my constituency where rape offences are up by 58%, sexual assaults up by 150% and the number of gardaí required in the division is down by 150, will the Minister indicate when some of the 45 Bills in the justice remit will be implemented to deal with these issues? When will the provision be implemented to meet the commitment—

An Ceann Comhairle

When is justice legislation promised?

Mr. Stagg

—in An Agreed Programme for Government that all substantive criminal law will be codified into a single crimes Act, the Crimes Bill?

The Tánaiste

I understand an initial position paper has been prepared outlining the possible approaches and an expert group is currently being established. It is expected that this group will report at the end of next year.

Mr. Rabbitte

It needs more than €1 million for that.

Mr. Stagg

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform said on radio yesterday morning that he hoped to do this during the next Government, not the next term. He said there was no chance of it. Perhaps the Tánaiste is misleading the House inadvertently.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point.

Mr. Ring

Before I am ruled out of order I can tell the Ceann Comhairle that my question is in order.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's colleague, Deputy Allen, says the Chair decides those matters.

Mr. Ring

I know that. Now that the Government has told county managers throughout the State that it is going to reintroduce rates on houses will the Tánaiste inform us when the Local Government (Rates) Bill will be introduced?

Mr. Rabbitte

The question is in order.

The Tánaiste

I clarify that the Government has not made such a decision, and the Deputy knows that.

Mr. Naughten

What about the poll tax?

The Tánaiste

The Local Government (Rates) Bill, to standardise, modernise, streamline and consolidate rating law, is expected next year.

Mr. S. Ryan

I suggest the Tánaiste should not hold too many early morning meetings as the backbenchers are all asleep.

An Ceann Comhairle

A question related to promised legislation please.

Mr. S. Ryan

In January this year we were told that the Criminal Justice (Garda Powers) Bill would be published—

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Criminal Justice (Garda Powers) Bill promised legislation?

Mr. S. Ryan

Sorry, there is more. We were told the Criminal Justice (Garda Powers) Bill would be published in 2002 but now we are being told it will be published in 2003. We were also told the Criminal Justice (Joint Investigation Teams) Bill, the Criminal Justice (Protection of Confidential Information) Bill and the Defamation Bill would be published in 2002 but now we are told they too will be published in 2003. What commitment is this in the area of justice and—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should allow the Tánaiste to reply.

The Tánaiste

He did not ask a question on legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

No question was asked on legislation.

Mr. S. Ryan

What is the answer?

The Tánaiste

What is the question?

Mr. S. Ryan

What are the priorities on justice legislation for the Government?

The Tánaiste

Deputy Ryan only made a statement and I have no reason to disagree with what he said in regard to the timescale for the Bills. The Criminal Justice (Garda Powers) Bill will be introduced in late 2003, the Criminal Justice (International Co-operation) Bill will be introduced in mid-2003, the Criminal Justice (Joint Investigation Teams) Bill will be introduced in early 2003 and the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill will be introduced in late 2003.

Mr. Rabbitte

What does the Tánaiste think would happen if the Minister, Deputy O'Dea, were to do his job in the Sunday Independent like that?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have to finish the Order of Business shortly. There are a number of Deputies with questions and I cannot take them all this morning.

Mr. J. Higgins

A hint to the Tánaiste would be to keep the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in the Dáil rather than letting him loose on radio.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy ask a question appropriate to the Order of Business?

Mr. J. Higgins

The latest flooding has highlighted a serious deficiency in control over developers and the appropriateness of where they build. Will the Building Control Bill, which would deal with some of these issues, be brought forward from mid-2003 to an early date for discussion in the Dáil?

The Tánaiste

That Bill is to provide for the registration of the titles of architect, building surveyor and quantity surveyor and to streamline and strengthen the powers of local building control under the Building Control Acts. The heads of the Bill were approved by the Government about a year ago. It is expected in the middle of next year.

Mr. Crawford

I have questions on three Bills. When will we have the Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill? When will there be provision to reform the law on personal injuries? Legislation on both of these is important in the light of escalating insurance charges. When will the Health Complaints Bill be introduced? In Monaghan there are many complaints regarding the service—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy was doing extremely well asking questions about legislation and he should not spoil it now.

Mr. Crawford

There is no point in declaring Monaghan a hub town without a hospital. It is like a pub with no beer.

The Tánaiste

The Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill and the Health Complaints Bill will be introduced in 2003. The PIAB legislation is being fast-tracked and we will have it early next year.

Ms Lynch

I start by apologising for the behaviour of this side of the House but we have so little time to work with, it gets disruptive from time to time.

An Ceann Comhairle

Has the Deputy a question on legislation?

Ms Lynch

Yes, on a serious issue. There have been two vicious rapes in Cork in the past week. When will the Government release the resources necessary to catch people who—

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise. The Deputy will have to find another way of raising it. Is there a question on legislation?

Ms Lynch

On the Criminal Justice (Garda Powers) Bill.

The Tánaiste

I thank the Deputy for her gracious apology on behalf of the Opposition. The Criminal Justice (Garda Powers) Bill will be introduced in late 2003.

Mr. Durkan

It might be more appropriate to apologise on behalf of the Government.

Mr. Coveney

Is the Tánaiste concerned that we will not have an adequate power supply from 2004 onwards? It takes two years to build a new generating station. When will the Electricity Bill come before the House? I hope it will improve conditions so the market will attract new private industry. Is the ESB precluded from building a new power station?

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy has not got a question appropriate to the Order of Business we will move on.

Mr. Coveney

In regard to the Common Fisheries Policy negotiations, will the Government make time available to debate this issue before the Taoiseach goes to the Copenhagen summit?

The Tánaiste

The Electricity Bill is proposed for early next year. The matter of making time available in the House is one for the Whips.

Ms Burton

Is the Tánaiste aware that many of her constituents and mine are becoming increasingly criminalised and being imprisoned due to the failure of the Government to introduce the Enforcement of Fines Bill?

An Ceann Comhairle

Has the Deputy a question appropriate to the Order of Business?

Ms Burton

This Bill is to provide for an alternative method of collecting fines other than imprisonment and attachment on earnings. This has been promised for nearly six years.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not necessary to make a statement on the Bill. The Tánaiste to reply.

Ms Burton

Many working class families—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order. I will take one more Deputy. Deputy Healy.

Ms Burton

I have been waiting for half an hour for an answer. May I hear it?

An Ceann Comhairle

I called the Tánaiste and I would like the Deputy to give her an opportunity to answer.

The Tánaiste

It will be published next year. I am not sure of the precise date.

Mr. Rabbitte

I thought the Ceann Comhairle was going to call one more Deputy.

An Ceann Comhairle

In accordance with long-standing precedent in the House, 20 minutes—

Mr. Rabbitte

Some of my colleagues have been waiting 30 minutes – Members on the Chair's side of the House do not even bother to put in an appearance – and the Chair is saying they will not be heard.

Ms Burton

I have a pain in my arm from holding it up.

An Ceann Comhairle

Before Deputy Rabbitte goes any further, I do not have a side of the House. The Chair is impartial and represents all sides in the House.

Mr. Rabbitte

That is a great comfort.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is well aware of it.

Mr. Rabbitte

I take it that Deputies who waited 30 minutes to be heard will have an opportunity to put their questions and have them answered by the Tánaiste.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a long-standing precedent in the House, and each of my predecessors ruled, that 20 minutes is appropriate for the Order of Business.

Mr. Durkan

It depends on the circumstances.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are many rulings on this matter and if the Deputy wishes to discuss them he can come to my office. I call Deputy Seamus Healy.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Rabbitte

There never was such a precedent.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will not discuss the matter with the Deputy. If he wants to come to my office I would be glad to discuss it with him.

Mr. Rabbitte

That is not acceptable.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Seamus Healy.

Mr. Healy

When does the Government propose to introduce a Bill to abolish County Tipperary given that the Minister for Defence and Fianna Fáil Deputies, north and south, have ensured that there will be no provision for County Tipperary in the national spatial strategy?

An Ceann Comhairle

Promised legislation to abolish County Tipperary does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Durkan

On a point of order. One of my colleagues has been attempting to raise a question for some time. It is relevant, in order and is of special importance—

An Ceann Comhairle

That may be so, but, as I have pointed out, in accordance with precedent there is other business to be dealt with. Deputies complain every morning about business not being done in this House. Much of what is asked involves repetition and there is a long-standing precedent that approximately 20 minutes is given to the order of Business. It is not possible—

Mr. Quinn

Not on this side.

Mr. Stagg

There is no such precedent.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are any number of rulings in this House—

Mr. Rabbitte

We do not accept that.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy wishes to come to my office—

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Numerous rulings were made by my predecessors.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Ceann Comhairle wants to make the House so sterile that we cannot ask any questions on the legislative programme.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are numerous rulings. It is not possible for 165 Members of the House to ask questions each morning on any item in which they are interested.

(Interruptions).

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Is it in order for me to comment—

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order for the Deputy to comment at this stage.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

I have been a Member of this House for some time and I have never heard of the 20 minute rule.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has absolute discretion in the matter and that has always been the case. My predecessors ruled on the matter.

Mr. Stagg

We believe the Ceann Comhairle and we want him to demonstrate that, but he is closing down the debate—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should realise that the Chair is fair. I am trying to be fair to all Members of the House.

Ms McManus

I ask the Ceann Comhairle to consider that it would be totally inoperable to set a limit of 20 minutes on this period of our business. One of the great difficulties is that we were given a legislative programme which is turning out to be a work of fiction. Numerous Bills were promised for 2002 and the reason we have to ask questions is that they have not been published. The maternity Bill and a Bill relating to refugees are outstanding and we were told, in respect of a previous legislative programme, that they would be published in 2002. It is now not even known when they will be published. No date has been set.

An Ceann Comhairle

If all Deputies confined themselves to the substance of Standing Orders, every Deputy would be heard within 20 minutes.

Ms McManus

We are being told untruths on legislation and we must have an opportunity to extract information that has some semblance of accuracy if this Parliament is going to work.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Allen

Given that the national spatial strategy is being debated in the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, and will be discussed on every radio station and in the newspapers—

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not appropriate to the Order of Business, it has already been discussed.

Mr. Allen

—and will be the subject of television programmes over the weekend—

An Ceann Comhairle

We are moving on to item No. 14.

Mr. Allen

It has not been dealt with.

An Ceann Comhairle

It has been dealt with.

Mr. Allen

When will we have a specific debate in the House about—

An Ceann Comhairle

This has been dealt with. The Tánaiste dealt with it this morning.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

We will hear Deputy Kenny.

Mr. Kenny

I have known every Ceann Comhairle since Tom Fitzpatrick – who comes from the Ceann Comhairle's region – and I have never encountered a Standing Order or specific ruling for 20 minutes. One of the last rights left to Deputies in this House is to ask a question. It is not the Ceann Comhairle's fault, the Government has demeaned the House and Members by making major announcements outside and by the Taoiseach absenting himself on Thursdays. The Ceann Comhairle, as an impartial Chairman, should show some vision by saying that if any Member wishes to ask a question on legislation or matters relevant to the House, they should be authorised to do so. Whether that takes 164 minutes on Thursday or whatever, the Chair –in its impartiality – should be entitled to do so. This is one of our last rights because the Government has diminished every representative and every right they have had here—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should bring the matter to the sub-committee on Dáil reform.

Mr. Stagg

We want to deal with it now.

An Ceann Comhairle

My immediate predecessor in the Chair did not take questions on the Order of Business from everybody who offered.

Mr. Allen

Will there be a debate on the national spatial strategy?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste answered that.

Mr. Allen

It will have gathered dust before we have a chance to deal with it.

The Tánaiste

I doubt it.

Mr. Gilmore

What are the proposals?

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have everybody on their feet at the same time. Deputies should resume their seats.

Mr. Rabbitte

What is the answer?

The Tánaiste

As I have said on numerous occasions, the Whips will discuss when time can be made available.

Mr. Gilmore

That was not my question.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will have to ask the Deputy to leave the House. We cannot have Members jumping up.

Mr. Allen

When will the matter be debated?

Mr. Durkan

A serious problem is emerging—

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to resume his seat. We cannot have everyone on their feet.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Ciúnas. Deputy Stagg on a point of order. I hope it is a point of order.

Mr. Stagg

Recently, the Chair and Government spokespersons have been saying that matters are for the Whips. There is no such thing, as far as this House is concerned, as something being a matter for the Whips. The Whips have no official status in the House. The Government Whip will be instructed by the Government as to what to say at a Whips meeting. My colleagues and I are asking a specific question on the Order of Business with regard to what are the Government's proposals on the national spatial strategy, which they will tell the Whip eventually.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Durkan

In support of my colleagues, I appeal to the Chair to allow the Tánaiste to give a clear and unequivocal answer to the question which has been legitimately raised, about a matter that affects the country and is of huge national and international importance. The Tánaiste is being given the opportunity to indicate when the debate will take place and how it will be conducted. That is a matter for Government.

The Tánaiste

On many occasions when I have taken the Order of Business over the last few years, Deputies on the Opposition side have asked when we would have the spatial strategy. We now have it.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Rabbitte

We have not seen it yet.

The Tánaiste

How can Members be so certain about it if they have not read it?

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste without interruption.

The Tánaiste

Fine Gael published its own form of spatial strategy some time ago and that was not published in the House either.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Kenny

The Minister for the Environment and Local Government said—

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Order please. I call Deputy O'Sullivan.

Mr. Ring

Deputies are being ignored by the Government.

The Tánaiste

The Government proposal is that the Whips should decide on setting time aside as soon as possible. The budget is a priority for next week. Perhaps Deputies can take time to study the spatial strategy before we debate it.

(Interruptions).

Ms Lynch

When did the Tánaiste realise that the budget is next week?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Lynch will please resume her seat.

Mr. Allen

On a point of order—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will not take a point of order while it is on its feet. Deputy Allen should resume his seat. We must have order in this House. When the Chair is on its feet, all Members resume their seats.

Mr. Allen

We were told we were not welcome.

An Ceann Comhairle

Members will speak when they are called upon by the Chair. We cannot have everybody standing up and speaking at the same time. The Chair may be left with no option but to ask somebody to leave the Chamber this morning. We cannot have three or four Deputies standing up at the same time.

Mr. Allen

On a point of order, Opposition spokespersons are being locked out. I phoned the Minister's office yesterday—

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not taking a point of order. Deputy Allen will resume his seat. That is not a point of order. Deputy Allen will be first to leave the House if he does not resume his seat. I have called Deputy O'Sullivan.

Ms O'Sullivan

I believe I have merited an award for patience. I have a pain in my hand from holding it up since the start of questions on the legislative programme. I wish to ask a serious and legitimate question on promised legislation. It appears from the Government's list that the only priority the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has with regard to the significant problem of alcohol abuse is to solve the vintners' problem with the equal status legislation. That is the Government's only priority legislation with regard to alcohol. What is the position in relation to the intoxicating liquor Bill which is No. 104? Publication is expected but it is not possible to indicate a date at this stage. However, we have a significant problem of alcohol abuse in our society, under-age drinking—

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no need for the Deputy to make a statement on what she wishes to see in the legislation.

Mr. Naughten

Perhaps the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, might have the answer.

The Tánaiste

It is not possible to indicate at this stage when we will have that legislation.

Mr. Wall

In relation to the venue for the UEFA championships in 2008, what is the current position with regard to the Abbotstown sports centre authority Bill? When will the drug offenders Bill be introduced in the House?

The Tánaiste

On the Deputy's first question, I believe we will have that Bill in this session.

Mr. S. Ryan

Santa Claus is coming.

The Tánaiste

At this stage, it is not possible to indicate a date for the drug offenders Bill.

Mr. M. Higgins

I wish to ask about the refugee reception and integration agency Bill. Are talks taking place between the Tánaiste's Department and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform on this Bill? When will the Bill be introduced, thereby avoiding the need to hire private aircraft to deport people before their status has been properly assessed?

The Tánaiste

I understand this Bill is not being pursued at present.

(Interruptions).

Mr. M. Higgins

Has it been removed from the list of forthcoming legislation?

The Tánaiste

According to my note, it is not being pursued at present.

Mr. M. Higgins

It is listed at No. 111 on the Government's list of proposed legislation. Can the Tánaiste indicate why it is not being proceeded with?

The Tánaiste

I will ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to communicate with the Deputy.