Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Dec 2002

Vol. 559 No. 2

Criminal Justice (Public Order) Bill, 2002: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Costello

I welcome the Minister. As I said previously, if I were Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform I would not start from this point. This inadequate legislation is unable to address the public order issue on our streets. There has been a breakdown of law and order. The legislation has a very minor function. It provides for an exclusion order to be made preventing someone who has been in a public house or fast food premises from returning to the specified premises if they are charged with a particular offence. However, they will just go to a different premises and carry on as before. The venue may change but the problem will not go away. We could find ourselves in a legal morass as far as proving culpability is concerned as regards premises which provide food rather than drink if we try to close them down. The legislation is inadequate to address the anarchy on our streets.

It would have been much better had the extra 2,000 gardaí promised in the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats manifesto been appointed. There is no money for that now so it does not seem as if the Minister is serious about policing the streets. If we look at the annual crime figures for 2001 we see a dramatic increase in the headline offences. There was an 83% increase in violent assaults, most of which were late at night and in the circumstances we are discussing. There has been an increase in the number of all kinds of serious offences and we do not have an adequate response to that. This was brought home to us last week when the boys from Belvedere College were unable to sleep out on the streets for 48 hours because the authorities could not guarantee their safety. They were unable to continue doing what had been done for the past 16 years. That shows how much matters have deteriorated. One cannot have an overnight collection for the homeless on the streets of Dublin for security reasons. That is disgraceful. I am sure Fr. Peter McVerry who was the beneficiary of some £40,000 or £50,000 each year will miss that money.

The "Prime Time" programme highlighted the degree to which law and order has broken down in terms of alcohol abuse and the frightening activities we saw on the streets. The only response from the Government was to put 35 cent on the price of alcopops as though that would solve the problem. Under the most recent road traffic legislation gardaí were to be trained and given a breathalyser kit which would cost in the region of €1 million but that is not available this year, nine months after the passing of the legislation. The Government is not serious about dealing with drink driving. The Commission on the Liquor Licensing Laws has been postponed again in order to have further talks on the rights of pub owners regarding Travellers yet we talk about trying to control drinking in public places and closing premises. Surely we should have speeded that up so we could have the benefit of that multidisciplinary group that spoke for various sectors of the community.

This is a small, petty, minimalist Bill that will be largely unworkable. It will not be effective in dealing with the problems it purports to deal with. It is badly drafted and thought out. It is approaching the problem from the wrong end. We should be looking at the cause of the problem, why there are so many young people on the streets, why there is such a high level of liquor consumption, the contribution of super pubs and the extensive licensing hours in some places, the limit on public houses were there are big barns of pubs in certain areas of the city and at the facilities and amenities for young people. They are crying out for facilities. There have been cutbacks down the line and we do not know if the RAPID funding will come on stream which was supposed to deal with facilities for young people in deprived areas. It has now run into the sand. We do not know if the funding will come on board. It appears not. From all accounts, those involved in the—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should conclude.

Mr. Costello

—in my area are going on strike because of its inactivity. The Minister should provide much greater resources for amenities that would give people diversionary activities to avoid the occasion of drink and there should be a greater crackdown on the type of premises that abuse the law. If we introduce a partial measure of this nature it will only pay lip service to the problem and will not change anything. We need more gardaí on the streets. That kind of community policing will solve many problems.

Mr. Nolan

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this short but important Bill. I reject the statement that it is a small, petty and minimalist Bill. While it might be short it is very important.

Mr. Costello

Mickey Mouse I suppose I should have said.

Mr. Nolan

Deputy Costello will acknowledge that it is important legislation if for no other reason than the recent "Prime Time" programme which showed the abuse of alcohol by young people in particular. While the programme was based around Dublin and the problems that are encountered in the city, the same problems are experienced by every small and medium-sized town in the country. I compliment the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on putting forward this legislation and introducing it. It was the previous Government's intention to proceed with this Bill during the course of the last Administration and I am glad that it has been taken up again at such an early stage in the lifetime of this—

Mr. Costello

Obviously very urgent legislation.

Mr. Nolan

It did not see the Statute Book during the lifetime of the last Government but hopefully because of the priority accorded it by this Administration it will be signed into law in the near future. Everyone in the House is aware of the great public concern among law abiding citizens at the increased level of public disorder which seems to have escalated over the past number of years. There is not a family that has not been affected in some way. There is not a town, county or village that has not been affected by outrageous acts of hooliganism against individuals and property perpetrated by a minority as a result of over-indulgence in alcohol.

Recently the Minister for Health and Children spoke of the staggering increase in the consumption of alcohol particularly among young children. A frightening statistic is that the consumption of spirits has grown by 50% in the past five years. Much of this increase is attributed to young people drinking shorts as opposed to beer and lager. I compliment the Minister for Finance on increasing the tax take from alcopops in the budget. It seems that young people set out to get themselves very drunk by drinking these beverages. If they stuck to longer drinks we might not see the level of disorder we are currently experiencing.

As our community enjoys an increase in prosperity we are also experiencing an increase in alcohol consumption. One does not have to be a rocket scientist to make the connection. In a general context, we must be concerned by a culture in which the consumption of alcohol plays such a prominent part. We should be aware of the health implications of such a culture. Reading any of the provincial newspapers one can see the large amount of space given over to the coverage of court cases in which it is very evident that abuse of alcohol is the main contributing factor. The effect of this culture on public order and civil society is evident.

I am no latter-day puritan, either in outlook or in habit: I do enjoy a drink. However, I am concerned about the direction in which our society is heading. There is no single answer to this problem. It is a multi-faceted issue and agencies such as the Garda Síochána, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Department of Health and Children and the Department of the Environment and Local Government, along with us as legislators, have a part to play in the resolution of this problem. The Garda have a very difficult task in trying to control situations in which hundreds, sometimes thousands, of inebriated young people come out onto the streets of our county towns at 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. They all make their way to local take-aways where, infused with alcohol and, increasingly, drugs, they become involved in serious incidents of public disorder. I am sure every Garda in the State recognises only too well the problem of young people en masse causing problems. They can easily identify particular trouble spots.

This Bill goes some way towards rectifying this problem and gives the Garda some power to deal with the situation. The job of the Garda is not made any easier by the legislation on our Statute Book. Talking to gardaí, one cannot blame them. Why should they put their well-being at risk trying to uphold public order when they feel they are being let down by us not giving them the protection they deserve? Our gardaí must be given the resources to tackle this problem. I agree with Deputy Costello that the problem of Garda numbers must be tackled by this Administration.

The Judiciary has an equally important role to play and the sight of individuals who repeatedly offend being given lenient sentences or being put on remand is not acceptable. The Judiciary should be mindful of its responsibilities. There can be nothing as frustrating, for gardaí in particular, as going to great lengths to apprehend and bring to justice people who are the root cause of public disorder, only to find that lenient sentences are being handed down. I know from speaking to gardaí that they are frustrated by the sentences imposed by certain judges. Persistent offenders should, in the first instance, be put under curfew, under which they are not allowed out of their homes between certain hours of certain days, especially weekends. If they break the curfew they should be given custodial sentences. These should be mandatory and specified in law. There is no greater incentive towards good behaviour than the threat of a custodial sentence.

The purpose of this Bill is to give protection to people who wish to go about their daily lives free from the threat of drunken or disorderly thugs intent on causing trouble. The primary purpose of our role as legislators is to ensure innocent people have the protection of the law behind them. Talking to people, it is extraordinary to find out how many of them, particularly but not exclusively the elderly, cannot walk the streets of their own towns and cities after dark because of the fear of being picked on by these cowardly people, who normally travel around in gangs. There is an onus on the Government and on the House to ensure that the unruly element does not take over our streets at night. We must augment our legislation to make sure this does not happen. I welcome the significant powers this Bill will give to the Garda in tackling the problem. It will assist them greatly in restoring order to many places which have been plagued by the problem of antisocial behaviour.

Apart from the cost to the State of the extra manpower we need to patrol our towns, particularly at weekends, and the expense involved in bringing wrongdoers to justice, a price is also paid by our health boards and hospitals as they provide facilities, at a time we can ill afford to do so, in the accident and emergency departments of our general hospitals. "Prime Time" showed the huge pressure placed on accident and emergency units by weekend disorderly behaviour and the carry-on in certain towns, especially the larger urban areas. We can come in here and be very critical of our health service and the work of the people who are at its coalface, but we must remember that we have responsibilities as well. There is a case to be made that people admitted because of over-indulgence in alcohol should pay for their own treatment. They take up the time of medical professionals who would otherwise be able to focus their attention on those who really need treatment. The Minister of State, who has first hand experience of these issues, should look at that idea. A recent survey showed that more than half of all admissions to accident and emergency units are a result of alcohol related problems. This sends a message that we must do something.

The installation of CCTV cameras is a useful way to tackle street violence. Gardaí can point to a reduction in crime after two or three weeks anywhere where such cameras are in use. They can use them to identify perpetrators of disorder and use the footage as evidence against them. There should be a speeding up of the CCTV project. The previous Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform outlined a number of urban centres suitable for the use of CCTV and the current Minister proposes to install cameras in those centres next year. We must do this as quickly as possible to assist gardaí and rectify the difficulties they are facing. Reducing crime levels is much cheaper than bringing people before the courts. The last Government made great progress in the installation of CCTV systems in some urban areas and it should be enhanced and expanded. It would be cost effective.

We must look at the legal aid system. Repeat offenders abuse the system when they are granted free legal aid. This softly, softly approach to a minority in society does not help and will have to change.

The Minister mentioned the provisions in the Bill for exclusion and enclosure orders. A curfew would be more effective. We should see how they work before we make a final commitment to them. The authorities must also get to grips with ID cards. In parts of the State there is a thriving business in the manufacture of fake IDs. We must settle on a proper system and make it available State-wide.

We should acknowledge that the majority of citizens act responsibly and the individuals causing this public disorder are very much a minority. Young people now see drink driving as completely unacceptable, a sea change that has come about in the last 20 years. Then one was macho if one drank and then drove home.

I welcome this Bill. It is small but welcome step in the right direction and the Minister should pursue it. If proof is needed about the seriousness of the problem, we should look at the "Prime Time" programme from two weeks ago. I hope the Bill is passed swiftly.

Mr. Naughten

I have been waiting since June to speak on this Bill and welcome this opportunity to contribute to the debate. Many people believe that street violence has only become an issue since the "Prime Time" programme. Some months ago a young man on the north side of Dublin was assaulted and murdered because he had a mobile phone. That demonstrates how bad the situation is at present. The individuals involved in that case had carried out a number of assaults prior to this but had never been reported because people believed they would not be apprehended. As a result of the lack of resources, gardaí cannot ensure that this type of incident does not happen or pursue those involved. This legislation is welcome but it will be worthless if gardaí are not given the required resources.

This Bill is rushed legislation as a result of the flagging of street violence as a major issue by Fianna Fáil focus groups. After five years in office, Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats have failed to get to grips with public order. It is a social problem that has flourished over the last five years and was ignored until the focus groups flagged it prior to the election, leading to the publication of this Bill. Street violence has grown rapidly in that period and the viciousness of attacks is increasing. The former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, was a spectator watching an unprecedented escalation in street violence.

The overwhelming majority of people no longer feel safe walking alone in their own neighbourhoods at night. Cities and major towns now resemble Dodge City, with a huge rise in shootings, stabbings, muggings and assaults, reported and unreported. In every town there is concern about street crime. In a survey in County Roscommon a year ago, over 85% of people of all age groups said they were afraid to walk the streets of their local town at night.

The explanatory memorandum to the Bill uses the phrase "alcohol abuse" but that is the only reference to alcohol in the Bill, although it is a major contributing factor in public disorder. Not only does it cause problems of public order, it causes problems for the health service, placing significant pressure on accident and emergency units at weekends. Deputy Nolan mentioned that 50% of those entering accident and emergency units do so because of alcohol related incidents. Those entering due to an alcohol overdose should be charged the full cost of their treatment. At present, those treated following a road traffic accident have to pay the full costs of treatment because the claim is put through an insurance company. The same should apply with regard to the abuse of alcohol and that would focus many minds. Huge pressure is put on waiting lists and every week, in major acute hospitals such as University College Hospital in Galway, elective surgery must be cancelled because those assaulted over the weekend are taking up much needed beds.

The Progressive Democrats talk about the deregulation of pubs across the country. It is a hobby horse of the party of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. There is no point introducing this legislation if deregulation of pubs occurs at the same time; that would be contradictory.

Deputy Nolan spoke about the need to imprison more people for breaches of this legislation when enacted. The current sanction is a fine of €650 and-or three months in jail. Prison seems the only solution provided in this legislation and by this Government to resolve this difficulty. The Bill makes no mention of the need to develop the probation service. The expansion of the use of restitution orders, duty service orders, probation orders, extended supervision and diversion programmes should be looked at and resourced. This would involve a much expanded probation and welfare service but is not in place because this Government will not invest resources. We see instead cutbacks and clawbacks throughout the public service.

More emphasis must be paid to rehabilitation and restorative justice if we are to ensure this issue is addressed. In some cases, restorative justice can be a much more effective tool in ensuring that an individual does not become a repeat offender, especially in light of the fact that the Government is not prepared to provide the resources for juveniles who have been found to have committed offences. The spaces are not there at present.

We need high visibility policing, and gardaí visible on the beat and the streets. That is not happening at present due to the huge under-resourcing of the Garda Síochána and bad management of existing resources. There was no good news in the Estimates or budget with regard to the resources being provided to the Garda to ensure this legislation is enforced. Athlone town, one of the major gateway centres the Government has talked about, is a good example. There are five or six gardaí on duty every Saturday night in Athlone. If there is a road traffic accident, that figure is reduced to four and, if the gardaí are called to an incident in Moate or Glasson, it is reduced to two in a town with a population of over 15,000, with three major nightclubs and a fourth about to open. Those are the resources available at present yet we are still talking about this legislation. Without a commitment to resources, implementation of the Bill will not be possible and no commitment has been given by the Government.

On bank holiday weekend nights, instead of putting additional resources onto the streets, Garda resources were until recently focused on road traffic enforcement. That was because the Garda Síochána had become the revenue collector for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, bringing in money from speeding fines. Since the penalty points system has come in, gardaí are on the streets enforcing other road traffic legislation with regard to motor tax and insurance because they can issue fines for those offences. This is to bring in more revenue rather than policing the penalty points system which was supposed to be the core tool to improve road safety. It is now only related to the issue of revenue.

There is not the same generation of resources for the Government with regard to drink driving, or the same ability to tax that through the new revenue commissioners for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Garda Síochána. Therefore, the drink driving legislation is not resourced. Some €1 million required to bring in new breathalysers has not been found by the Government and the funding needed for the Garda overtime necessary to enforce drink driving laws over Christmas has not been provided by the Department. A dedicated Garda traffic corps is needed to focus on road traffic legislation and the Garda Síochána should be given the resources so this legislation can be implemented. That has been highlighted with regard to Operation Codladh Sámh, where funding was not available to ensure that measure was appropriately and successfully delivered.

The issue of public transport should be looked at and there should be proper night schedules in our major cities. An issue that comes up mainly in rural areas is that of pick-up points for buses bringing young people into towns on a Saturday night, then collecting them and bringing them home. Many of the pick-up locations are near residential parts of towns and there should be dedicated zones where buses can collect young people after leaving nightclubs so those with alcohol on them are not brought into residential areas. This is happening all over the country and there is a responsibility on local authorities to focus on this and designate specific areas for pick-up and collection.

There is a need to bring in by-laws to ensure that indiscriminate drinking on streets is stopped. There does not seem to be the necessary co-ordination between the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Environment and Local Government, and local authorities. Statutory identity cards have worked well and are very successful in the United States yet we are still dithering about whether to bring them in here. Deputy Nolan spoke about the number of false identity cards available; manufacturing them is good business.

The Bill ignores the difficulties and problems occurring in housing estates. There is no mention in the legislation of control in housing estates where there are huge problems for residents. Because of the pathetic resources provided, gardaí are not able to police many of the bigger housing estates in towns around the country. There is no mention of exclusion orders which could be enforced for specific areas, not just outside a pub, chip shop or nightclub. The Minister should look at these issues and provide the funding to ensure this legislation is enforced. There is no point in Members talking in the House unless there is a commitment to provide resources.

Mr. Crawford

I support the last comment by my colleague, Deputy Naughten. This Bill reminds me of legislation brought through the House in 1989 by the then Minister, Mr. Michael O'Kennedy, regarding the control of meat and bone meal. The Bill was not policed until the outbreaks in the mid 1990s. This Bill may sound good but, without financial support to the Garda and those who have to implement it, it will be worthless.

I was at a meeting in Cootehill on Monday night at which colleagues from west Cavan pointed out that not a single garda is available between Manorhamilton and Ballyconnell at night. One must wait for one to come from the station in either town. The same is true from Ballyconnell to Cavan town. The lack of available gardaí to deal with crime or disturbances on the streets is the single biggest issue we face and people are living in fear. Those that want to cause trouble know that the chances of the Garda responding on time are limited. The Garda means well but it is impossible for it to operate. If gardaí manage to respond on time and apprehend the people who are causing trouble, justice is very often not done, nor is it seen to be done. There is not much point in the Garda going to the trouble of bringing these people to court to find that the judge decides a contribution to the poor box is sufficient punishment. It is vital that elected legislators ensure the work done by the Garda is supported by a justice system which imposes appropriate penalties.

The issue of probation has been mentioned here, but I wish to mention another. When people are faced with a choice between a custodial or suspended sentence and a fine, they are often not able to pay. It is long past time to have a system whereby that fine could be attached to their social welfare payments or their earnings. They would then feel the pain for some time in the future and it might have the effect of curtailing their use of alcohol. If someone overdraws from social welfare or pension funds, they often find they have to pay the money back over a number of years. There is no reason fines imposed on people cannot be dealt with in the same way. If that is done along with some social involvement by the people concerned, some good can come of these matters.

Recently, I asked a question about problems in Cootehill and some gardaí were quite annoyed. I am not annoyed with the Garda, I am annoyed about the resources it has to provide services the people in that town, or any other, deserve. All of us in this House are guilty of allowing the extended hours and I understand the Progressive Democrats want to allow for a complete opening up of the law in this regard. We have to take another look at the legislation to curtail pub opening hours. What is happening is ridiculous. People leave pubs late at night and go to fast food outlets, which are often on main streets, where they cause mayhem and serious trouble for the elderly.

There is a great deal of fear on housing estates with people being forced from their homes. This is happening in Monaghan and other towns where one would never have expected problems of this nature. It is not just the case in some of the estates we would imagine. The Garda is not able to deal with the fear. Only last night, I spoke to a garda from another town who told me that the problem is getting witnesses to come forward in the face of threats. People are afraid that if they say something, they will be the next victim. We need the 2,000 extra gardaí the Minister promised to be put in place, but if they cannot be provided, civilians must be appointed to do some of the jobs currently being done by members of the force. That would ensure that gardaí would be on the beat to enforce the provisions of this Bill. I support any move to control late night hooliganism and abuse, but without the necessary funds, this Bill cannot be put into operation.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Ms Hanafin)

The problem of public disorder on our streets is the result of a lack of respect, a lot of attitude and too much alcohol. It is not just a problem for the Government and public representatives, it is a problem for society. Alcoholism and the abuse of alcohol through binge drinking by young people leads not just to serious health and social problems but to serious public disorder. This disorder is taking place outside licensed premises, on our streets and in our housing estates during the late hours of the night. We can point to many who enjoy alcohol responsibly and do not create problems for themselves or others, but it is very serious when it comes to young people. We have seen violence and risk-taking by young people which leads to ill health and societal worry.

It is particularly worrying to look at the statistics regarding the level of drinking among young people. There has been a 50% increase in the consumption of spirits over the last five years. While in other EU member states alcohol consumption per capita has decreased, in Ireland it increased by 41%. When we considered extending the pub opening hours we pointed to other countries in Europe which did not have public disorder but did have later closing times. It was thought that later opening hours here would mean that people would not be spilling onto the streets at the same time, but we failed to consider the fact that Irish culture is different. The Irish attitude to alcohol is very different to the attitude in any other country and extended hours have meant people are spilling onto the streets at later times of the night to cause public disorder.

I listened to Deputy Naughten complain about what is not in the Bill. He overlooked the fact that everything he mentioned is in the Children Act which was passed last year.

Mr. Neville

It has not been implemented.

Ms Hanafin

That Act mentions restorative justice, parental responsibility and the extension of the probation service and the Garda youth diversion projects. We all recognise how valuable the Garda youth diversion projects are and the number of them has been increased from a mere 12 in 1997 to 64. We can divert young people and keep them aware. We can ensure that parents take responsibility for where their children are and we can make them face the cost by fining them. As the Children Act is implemented over a short period of time, wider society will perhaps take responsibility for what is happening among young people. We do not have to look at "Prime Time" to know what is occurring, we can see it on our streets all the time.

In his opening statement the Minister spoke about the numbers of offences which are committed. Of relevance to this legislation are the 14,687 offences of intoxication in a public place committed in 2000, a figure which took four years to jump from 3,900. That points to a serious problem and to a serious need for the kind of legislation we have brought before the House. This Bill reflects the need for a co-ordinated Government response as does the strategic task force on alcohol, established by the Minister for Health and Children, and the educational campaign Think Before You Drink.

The Children Act, the Garda diversionary projects, the Bill which was before the House last week dealing with nightclub security etc. are all interlinked, as is the issue of advertising. We have been very strong in this Dáil on advertising of cigarettes and we need to be just as strong on alcohol advertising, in so far as it relates to young people.

This Bill is important in relation to exclusion orders. It is ridiculous that night after night the same people, drunk and disorderly, can turn up seeking entry to licensed premises and have to be turned away. An exclusion order for people who have been convicted of certain offences gives a certain guarantee and extra rights to the owners of the licensed premises ensuring their own protection and the safety of those on their premises and on the streets.

Mr. Costello

Any publican can exclude them at present.

Ms Hanafin

Now they will have the backup of the courts in doing so.

Mr. Costello

Only in specific premises.

Ms Hanafin

It will be for a specific premises but it means we can keep those people away from premises which we can all identify are the cause of many problems. In all our areas we can point to the specific nightclubs where there is trouble. We do not need the Garda to tell us that. This Bill will provide the backup. Publicans and owners need to take greater responsibility. It is already an offence to continue to ply a client with drink until they are drunk to the extent they are no longer able to take responsibility for themselves. Yet profit appears to be the over-riding factor where publicans continue to sell drink to people who have obviously gone beyond the need for it. It is a case of a societal response. I am concerned where this relates to young people. We have strong laws on selling to under age persons. We have seen throughout the country, but not in the city of Dublin, where premises have been closed for selling to under age persons. I would like to see greater enforcement of those laws. It is only when publicans and owners lose profits that they will begin to act more responsibly.

There is a growing problem of youth binge drinking. When I hear young people talking about alcopops I am worried when they say they do not like if they can taste the alcohol. That shows the kind of deception which is going on in the drinks industry and in advertising. Young people can end up drinking five or six alcopops such as WKD because they like the taste. They are getting the effects of the alcohol but they only realise that after having consumed five or six. What they taste is orange, lemon or some fruit. It is a very deceptive drink.

In the same way as we can ban under-cost selling of bread, milk and other products it should be possible to do the same in the case of alcohol. It is unacceptable that in the colleges one can walk around and find promotion nights offering a Vodka and Red Bull at a cheap rate of €1 or €2. A way needs to be found to ensure that is not continued. That would not happen with basic products and it should not happen with alcohol and young people. Marketing is only one element but it is leading to serious societal problems, not only of public disorder but of under achievement in third level colleges and in second level schools.

As a teacher I know that on a Monday morning one can come across young people with hangovers. Other teachers tell us of children of 11 or 12 years of age who are unable to function. In my dealings with children for the national children's strategy, I witnessed young children who, quite obviously, had all the features of foetal alcohol syndrome. Their parents, and particularly the mother, had such alcohol problems that one could see it in the child's features and the child will continue to suffer because of it. It is only with the concerted effort we are trying to put in as a society and a Government that we can tackle this problem.

Deputy Naughten spoke, in the light of Christmas, about the drink driving campaign. The Garda has indicated it will be out on the streets as in the past and it does not need a particular implement to enforce the drink-driving laws. I was amused to hear Deputy Naughten speak about what should be done. He was the very one who stood up here and criticised every single element of the points system, saying it should not be introduced now, the Garda was not ready for it and that no preparation was done. Yet we can see its effects where, thank God, for the first time in four and a half years, last weekend not one single person was killed on the roads. I did not hear him say, "Well done, Minister". We need to recognise that where there are policies and programmes they need to be implemented immediately. The legislation is only one element of it. This Bill will provide that extra support to those who own licensed premises, nightclubs, dance venues, amusement arcades, chip shops, etc. It will also highlight the issue in a positive way, that as part of the Government's concerted effort this is just one other way in which we are trying to tackle this serious issue.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. O'Dea)

I thank everybody who contributed to the debate on this important Bill.

Mr. O'Dowd

On a point of order, we were told we were next.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Order of the House passed this morning was that the Minister would be called at 4.45 p.m. and the question would be put at 5 p.m. That was the decision of the House this morning.

Mr. O'Dowd

I was not aware of that.

Mr. Neville

That is unfair.

A Deputy

The technical group is left out again.

Mr. Costello

It is not much of a Bill.

Mr. Neville

I wanted to raise the specific issue of what happened in Limerick on 29 November involving Brian Fitzgerald.

An Ceann Comhairle

The decision was made by the House this morning that Second Stage would conclude at 5 p.m. In accordance with the Standing Order the Minister is called at 4.45 p.m.

Mr. Neville

I was not going to be political about it.

Mr. O'Dea

He was a friend of mine. I will deal with that. The earlier discussion on Second Stage took place on 19 and 20 June 2002. Overall, it is fair to say there was a general welcome for the provisions of the Bill. While some Deputies criticised it for not going far enough, others faulted it for going too far. That means the Government got the balance just right.

This is a public order Bill, it is not an intoxicating liquor Bill nor is it a public health or control of alcohol Bill. When reviewing the contributions made in June one could be forgiven for thinking a different measure was being examined. There are some who wish to attribute the decline in public order to the extension of licensing hours provided for in July 2000 but this is to miss the point completely.

It is significant that between 1989 and 1999, alcohol consumption per capita in Ireland increased by a staggering 41% and that the consumption of spirits has increased by 50% during the past five years. These factors alone are worrying and probably point to one of the principal reasons behind the problems now being faced in this area. However, the increase cannot be attributed to the reasonable increase in opening hours introduced in July 2000 under the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 2000. In view of the representations made to him, the Minister has asked the licensing commission to look at that again and we expect its report shortly.

The Minister has already alluded to the other matters relevant here. The drinks industry is pushing out the boundaries of what is acceptable in terms of drink advertising by suggesting through sophisticated messages, subliminal, sporting and otherwise, that alcohol is cool and even sexy.

As the Minister for Health and Children has indicated this is something that needs to be addressed aggressively. Of special interest and concern to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is the question of the licensing regime and specifically the availability of ordinary pub licences. That is being examined by the Commission on Liquor Licensing.

The work of the special task force on alcohol is of paramount importance, not just for issues dealt with in his interim report but also other matters which it could usefully take into account, such as advertising, the sponsorship of events by the drinks industry, especially those that appeal to and involve young people, and the promotional practices that encourage excessive consumption of alcohol in society.

I return now to the area covered by the Bill and to the context in which the Government is promoting it. Gardaí have strong powers in regard to public order matters in the 1994 public order Act. However, it must be accepted that, for the benefit of society, it is necessary to add to those powers to help them deal with the problem of drink related street offences. All reasonable people would wish the situation was otherwise but it is not.

Gardaí have had considerable success as a result of Operation Encounter which came into force on 23 February. Particular attention is being paid to night clubs, fast food outlets and other venues in which large numbers of young people gather late at night, where experience has shown there is a potential for public disorder. Additional resources were made available to deal with the problems and specific plans were drawn up by regional commanders to prioritise the deployment of those resources. The precise timing is decided locally, based on the specific circumstances prevailing in each location.

The figures made available by the Garda on 16 October 2002 indicate that since the scheme was introduced, the following incidents have been recorded: 1274 assaults, including assaults causing serious harm; 14,314 incidents of threatening, abusive or insulting behaviour; 21,386 cases of public drunkenness; 6,480 instances of refusing to obey Garda directions; 3,276 cases of disorderly conduct and 371 cases of alcohol being sold to minors.

As the Minister said, the Bill approaches the matter in a novel way. If the sale of alcohol is a privilege which society grants to a proper licensing system, then the people in that privileged position not only have responsibilities under civil law but also have a duty to ensure that their clients and patrons do not leave their premises in such a state as to be a danger to themselves and a menace to others.

The owners of fast food outlets, which, unfortunately, can act as a magnet for troublemakers, also have to see the measures in the Bill affecting their interests in the wider context of protecting them and their law abiding customers and neighbours from thuggery. I reassure those interests that the closure provisions will not creep up on them. As is the case with the other premises covered by this Bill, serious trouble will first have to have occurred, and a warning issued by gardaí as a result. Only if the problem manifests itself again will the closure order option become a possibility.

Business interests in certain areas of the country, Galway in particular, have already come together to plan their strategies. They have introduced business watch schemes and other initiatives to share strategies and information as to how they can avoid problems. Even before its enactment, the Bill is having a positive and pre-emptive effect.

We know there are already provisions in the licensing code relating to the obligations on licensees not to serve drink to a person who is drunk. There are difficulties in policing those provisions, not to mention the provision of proof. The closure order provisions in the Bill may be seen as a blunt instrument but the Government believes that most sensible people will see their introduction as a reasonable and justifiable means of dealing with the matter.

Similar changes were introduced in England and Wales last year in the Criminal Justice and Police Act, 2001, to deal with the same problems. Those changes have been successful. We already provide for closure orders in the liquor licensing code for the sale of drugs on a premises or for the supply of drink to people under a certain age. The closure orders in the Bill, however, will apply only after the owner, manager or licensee of a particular establishment has been warned that trouble has occurred outside the premises caused by people who were on the premises. This differs significantly from the UK provision which allows for the immediate closure of premises by the police and the subsequent variation, rescission or confirmation of that closure by a court. The exclusion order in the Bill is there to ensure that a convicted troublemaker can be ordered by the District Court to stay away from a particular premises. Licensees will welcome that development.

I have only come to this Bill and today is my first day dealing with it. Deputy Costello raised the matter of people moving on to another premises if one premises is subject to a closure order. Even a cursory examination of the Bill will show that more than one premises can be closed. If there is a difficulty in a particular area several premises can be closed by court order. The Deputy also referred to the Bill as an inadequate response and said there were insufficient gardaí on the ground. Listening to contributions from the Opposition one would swear there are no gardaí in the country.

The strength of the Garda is at an historic high. There was a commitment in the Government manifesto to 2,000 more gardaí over the lifetime of the Government. That did not say over the first six or 12 months but over the lifetime. Anyone who can read would understand that.

Mr. Durkan

How can one predetermine the life of the Government? It may not last six months.

Mr. O'Dea

The Deputy may be assured it will last a lot longer than six months. Mention was made of the crime figures in the Garda report for this year. I am amused at how the Opposition cling on to those figures. When, over the years, the figures showed crime decreasing they were not believed.

Mr. Durkan

They were not decreasing. They were massaged.

Mr. Costello

There was an 83% increase in violent assaults.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Minister of State to speak without interruption.

Mr. O'Dea

Now that they show an increase in crime the Opposition cling to the figures. They are the Opposition's sole argument. Even with the slight overall increase in the figures this year they are still way below the number of indictable offences during the infamous Owen regime in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Compared to the amount of crime per head of population in other countries, Ireland is a relatively crime free paradise.

Deputy Crawford mentioned the issue of attachment to social welfare earnings for unpaid fines. The Government is preparing an attachment of earnings Bill in which the issue will be dealt with.

Deputy Costello mentioned alleged delays in regard to the liquor licensing commission coming up with a report on the safety of pubs and the non-serving of certain people. I met those groups in the summer. I do not recall getting any help or assistance from the Labour Party.

Mr. Costello

The Minister of State should have asked us and we would have been there.

Mr. O'Dea

I negotiated an armistice between them at the time. As a result, the threatened nation-wide ban was withdrawn. I promised I would refer the matter to the liquor licensing commission which will report to me shortly.

Mr. Costello

It has been postponed again.

Mr. O'Dea

I assure the Deputy he will not have long to wait. It has not been postponed. Last August I said I expected to have the report before Christmas. That remains the case. Deputy Costello may not expect the report before Christmas but the commission will surprise him.

Mr. Durkan

Which Christmas?

Mr. O'Dea

I thank everybody for their contributions on this Bill. I thank Deputies Costello and Deasy for the constructive comments they made. I do not wish to thank some of the Fine Gael backbenchers who engaged in a deliberate filibuster. Of course when Deputy Durkan came to speak the filibuster became a "filibluster". Having said that, I thank all contributors. A number of legitimate points have been raised and I look forward to dealing with them on Committee Stage.

Question put and agreed to.