Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Dec 2002

Vol. 559 No. 2

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 5a – Appropriation Bill, 2002, Order for Second Stage and Second and Subsequent Stages; No. 5 – Social Welfare Bill, 2002, Second Stage (resumed); No. 26 – Criminal Justice (Public Order) Bill, 2002, Second Stage (resumed); and No. 27 – financial motions by the Minister for Finance [2002] (motion 11, resumed).

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m.; and the sitting shall be suspended between 6.30 p.m. and 7 p.m.; (2) the Second and Subsequent Stages of No. 5a shall be taken today, and shall be decided without debate by one question which shall be put from the Chair, and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance; (3) the resumed Second Stage of No. 5 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 1.30 p.m.; (4) the resumed Second Stage of No. 26 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 5 p.m.; and Private Members' business shall be No. 38, motion re Primary Education (resumed) to conclude at 8.30 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are four proposals to be put to the House. Is the late sitting agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Rabbitte

I take this opportunity to raise the absence of the Cabinet in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise at this stage.

Mr. Rabbitte

With respect, Sir—

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Deputy opposing the late sitting?

Mr. Rabbitte

I will if you force me to, a Cheann Comhairle. I just wanted to draw attention to the fact that—

An Ceann Comhairle

It is the Deputy's choice.

Mr. Rabbitte

—this is not a good practice and the Taoiseach ought to require the Cabinet to have some respect for this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is entitled to rise to oppose the Order of Business. Is he doing so?

Mr. Rabbitte

Neither backbenchers nor the Cabinet now attend the Chamber which is particularly regrettable. It is incumbent on the Taoiseach to deal with it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 5a– Second and Subsequent Stages of the Appropriation Bill, 2002 – agreed?

Mr. Rabbitte

On No 5a – the Appropriation Bill, 2002 – it is not good practice for any Bill to be taken through all Stages in the House at the same time. It used to be the practice in this House that under the Appropriations Bill, there was an Adjournment debate. Indeed, there used to be an Adjournment debate for as many as two days at the end of a session but we now take all Stages together. Will the Taoiseach allow time next week for an Adjournment debate before the House rises for Christmas?

The Taoiseach

As Deputy Rabbitte knows, we are trying to pass a number of Bills. The Deputy asked me yesterday to look at them and last week raised the issue of getting more legislation through the House. I looked back to find a large number of Bills which have been dragged out. A great deal of time is being spent on them with many speakers so we are not getting the legislation through. Next week's schedule is packed with legislation but, if time can be found, we can do what he suggests. However, I do not think we can. Bills are now before the House for many hours and to make progress on them, we must move them on through the Stages. The more time I concede for debates on this, that or the other, the less time we have to process legislation. That is creating a problem.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Deputy opposing the Order of Business?

Mr. Rabbitte

I want to give notice that—

An Ceann Comhairle

On the same issue, Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Mr. Rabbitte

A Cheann Comhairle, may I give notice?

An Ceann Comhairle

No. The Deputy may only speak once to oppose the Order of Business. One representative from each party. Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Labour Party Whip will be raising the question on the Adjournment—

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

Mr. Rabbitte

A Cheann Comhairle, you are completely unreasonable.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to withdraw the remark that the Chair is being unreasonable.

Mr. Rabbitte

Are you for real, a Cheann Comhairle?

An Ceann Comhairle

Withdraw that remark, Deputy.

Mr. Rabbitte

A Cheann Comhairle, you are being unreasonable.

An Ceann Comhairle

Withdraw the remark. The Chair is not being unreasonable and the Deputy knows it. He knows Standing Orders as well as the Chair.

Mr. Rabbitte

Yes, I do but—

An Ceann Comhairle

One representative of each party is entitled to make a brief comment on each proposal before the House. The Deputy did that on behalf of his party and I ask him to withdraw the remark.

Mr. Rabbitte

I withdraw the remark but, a Cheann Comhairle, I regret very much the way in which you conduct the business of the House, which is unfair.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is sailing very close to the wind in making remarks about the Chair. The Chair has been fair to everybody and is applying Standing Orders as they are presented. It is a matter for the House if Members wish to change Standing Orders. I am calling Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Mr. Stagg

On a point of order, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have called Deputy Ó Caoláin and I will hear your point order after that.

Mr. Stagg

A point of order takes precedence.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not necessarily take precedence. I have called Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Mr. Stagg

Your ruling is wrong and we will challenge you every time that you keep this up. A point of order is entitled to be taken when it is called for and not at some later stage.

An Ceann Comhairle

As long as it is a point of order, Deputy.

Mr. Stagg

The point of order I am making is that your previous ruling is actually not in accordance with precedent. There is much precedent in the House for party leaders to make more than one intervention when they are seeking agreement with the Taoiseach on the Order of Business. It does not matter what you read out, that is the de facto situation in this House.

Mr. Rabbitte

That is correct.

An Ceann Comhairle

I suggest the Deputy should bring that matter to the Dáil reform committee and have Standing Order 26 changed.

Mr. Stagg

I do not need to – the precedent has been established by practice as well as by written rules.

An Ceann Comhairle

Standing Order 26 is quite specific.

Mr. Stagg

I am not talking about a specific Standing Order but about a precedent in the House, which you are quoting as well.

Mr. Rabbitte

We have no Cabinet Ministers present, a Cheann Comhairle, and you will not allow anybody in this House to conclude their sentences.

An Ceann Comhairle

You have leaders' questions, Deputy, and you have Taoiseach's questions. I call Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Mr. Rabbitte

Am I supposed to be grateful to have leaders' questions? Is that the implication of your remark?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies said they did not get a chance to ask questions. I call Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Mr. Rabbitte

Is the implication of your remark that I am supposed to be grateful? I was not elected to this House to be indulged by you in this fashion.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have called Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

As Deputy Rabbitte has highlighted, No. 5 on today's Order of Business, is not only concerned with the contraction of Second and Subsequent Stages into one day. We are also looking at a proposition in relation to the Appropriation Bill that will have the Bill taken with one question being put to the House, and without debate. If it was the case that Second and Subsequent Stages were being debated, with or without a time limit, there would be some credibility in the proposal. What we are looking at, however, is a proposition that will not allow any debate, and so the matter will be decided by a solitary question. That is infinitely more objectionable than the point highlighted earlier. It is an unacceptable situation and I have to oppose it.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with No. 5a be agreed,” put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is proposal No. 3 for dealing with No. 5 – Social Welfare Bill, 2002, Second Stage (resumed), agreed to?

Mr. Rabbitte

No, Sir, it is not agreed to. The Labour Party has had one speaker, and will only have one speaker, on the Social Welfare Bill. The amount of time provided for something as important as this Bill is entirely unrealistic. We are quite willing to sit for however many hours it takes to adequately discuss the Social Welfare Bill so I am asking the Taoiseach to make time available for that.

Mr. Kenny

The Fine Gael Whip made this point at the Whips' meeting. This is a major Bill, yet insufficient time has been allowed for many speakers to make their case. I support the point that has been made.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I also wish to record my objection to the unacceptable time allocation to address what is an important Bill with serious ramifications for many dependent people. The time allocation is completely unacceptable.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will put the question.

Mr. Stagg

The Taoiseach might like to reply to this question.

An Ceann Comhairle

He had an opportunity to do so.

Mr. Rabbitte

Three of us asked questions on this side of the House and you will not even let the Taoiseach reply.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is not preventing anybody from either asking a question or replying.

Mr. Rabbitte

I know it is a temperamental time of year but we are entitled to an answer.

Mr. Kenny

It is the season of Advent.

The Taoiseach

My apologies, a Cheann Comhairle, I was just talking to the Minister of State to see if it would be possible to provide some additional time. I understand that we have provided some time for the budget debate this evening, but we could switch the time provided for that debate to the Social Welfare Bill.

Mr. Rabbitte

I do not want to intrude into the time allocated for the budget debate.

The Taoiseach

The House is sitting until 10.30 p.m. tonight, a Cheann Comhairle, and the Social Welfare Bill has to be passed within a week. I am not against it if we want to sit a little later tonight to try and deal with it, and shorten the budget debate.

Mr. Kenny

When the Taoiseach's predecessor, former Deputy Albert Reynolds, was there he used to say, "Give them a bit more time, they'll be all right". If the time for debating the financial motions is swapped and added on to the debate on the Social Welfare Bill today, can we have a guarantee that extra time will be allocated tomorrow or next week for a continuation of the budget debate, which is equally important?

The Taoiseach

As I understand it, there is already an enormous amount of legislation to be put through the House next Tuesday and Wednesday. We could extend this Friday's sitting for the budget debate.

Mr. Allen

Extend this evening's sitting until midnight.

The Taoiseach

I do not want to be unreasonable, a Cheann Comhairle, I want to be helpful. If the Whips can look at the matter I am prepared to extend the time once I get the Social Welfare Bill passed. Nobody is arguing about not passing that Bill so it is a question of trying to provide some extra time. Deputy Kenny has suggested that the time allocated this evening for the budget debate could be taken for the Social Welfare Bill, and perhaps the House could sit longer as well. We can schedule the budget debate for Friday when not everyone is required to be present, and the House can sit longer that day. I would agree to such a proposal. Is that agreed?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Will the Taoiseach indicate whether there is any prospect of the Cabinet, and the Minister in particular, agreeing to restore the time for qualification to the back to work scheme?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is totally out of order.

The Taoiseach

In order not to confuse the staff, in reply to Deputy Rabbitte I am stating that the time we had provided for the budget debate today will be allocated to the debate on the Social Welfare Bill, and if necessary the House can sit later. In reply to Deputy Kenny, the budget debate time we are losing will be added on to Friday to accommodate speakers then.

Mr. Allen

Or Thursday.

The Taoiseach

Or Thursday.

Mr. Allen

Or Thursday and Friday.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Whips can return to the House with that decision. Is proposal No. 3 agreed to, subject to the Whips coming back to the House?

Mr. Stagg

On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, may I draw your attention, for future reference, to the fact that on that particular item on the Order of Business, the three party leaders each spoke twice. That is a precedent that you are now aware of, whereby it is possible to get the type of agreement that is desirable.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with item 26 – Second Stage of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Bill – agreed to? Agreed. We now move on to the Order of Business proper.

Mr. Kenny

In respect of the Abbotstown Sports Centre Bill, will the Taoiseach confirm a comment made this morning by Mr. John Henderson, the director of the Scottish bid for the UEFA championships—

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not related to legislation, Deputy.

Mr. Kenny

It relates to this Bill, Sir. The comment was made that legal documentation has been lodged by the Taoiseach to the effect that a stadium will be available for these championships. Will the Taoiseach confirm that?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Kenny

It does because it will have to be part of the Abbotstown Sports Centre Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

The content of the Bill does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Kenny

When will the Bill be presented and will it contain confirmation of legal documentation having been lodged with UEFA in respect of the provision of this stadium?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach, on the question of legislation before the House.

The Taoiseach

The Abbotstown Sports Centre Bill is available this session and deals with the swimming pool aspect. That is why we need to get it through the House.

Mr. Kenny

Will the Taoiseach deal with the legal documentation for the stadium?

Mr. M. Smith

The Deputy has driven another ball wide.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise at this stage. It would have been very appropriate on Leaders' Questions.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow Deputy Rabbitte to proceed without interruption.

Mr. Rabbitte

Is it necessary to enact the Abbotstown sports centre Bill to give effect to the documents that were lodged and approved by Cabinet yesterday? Is the State exposed? If it is, to what extent?

The Taoiseach

It is not necessary.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, has announced what is in effect a cutback in the local government fund. This will have serious ramifications for people, particularly householders and others—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should ask a question on legislation.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The legislation relating to this point is the Local Government Rates Bill. When does the Taoiseach expect that will come before the House?

The Taoiseach

The heads of the Bill are expected next week but the Bill will be introduced next year.

Mr. Naughten

On promised legislation, given that the Government has withdrawn funding for the Christmas road safety campaign, which makes a farce of the Government's road safety policy, when can we expect to see the Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill?

The Taoiseach

The preliminary work on the Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill to amend the Acts of 1961-2002 is under way. The heads of the Bill are not expected until late spring 2003. The Bill will be introduced after that.

Mr. P. Power

Deputies Wall and Ó Fearghaíl have asked me to congratulate Deputy Dukes on his appointment as Director General of the Institute of European Affairs and would like to wish him many years of success in his new role which he can take up in the knowledge that the constituency is in safe hands.

Foreign aid is a more serious matter. As we prepare to celebrate Christmas, there are thousands of people in Ethiopia facing starvation. Would the Government consider providing emergency aid for these people?

An Ceann Comhairle

Perhaps it would be better to submit a parliamentary question on that matter.

Mr. Coveney

Has the Government made a decision on funding of public service broadcasting in relation to the proposed licence fee?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise.

Mr. Coveney

Let me finish.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is there legislation that the Deputy wants to ask about.

Mr. Coveney

Will the Taoiseach inform the House whether he intends to make some time available to debate this issue before the Dáil adjourns for Christmas, considering a decision seems to have been made but not announced?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a matter for the Whips.

Mr. Gilmore

Two and a half years ago the Commission on the Private Rented Residential Sector recommended some legislative protection for tenants in the private rented sector. Over that two and a half years I have been raising questions about that legislation on the Order of Business. Why is it that tenants are still awaiting that legislation whereas the building industry can get legislation out of this Government that was not even on the legislative list and have it rushed through the House this week? Why is it that the building industry, which is now getting 16,000 sites back from the Government, has precedence over tenants?

The Taoiseach

The purpose of the Housing (Private Rented Sector) Bill is to give effect to the report of the Commission on the private rented residential sector. It is hoped it will be ready in the spring.

Mr. Gilmore

That is another three months. If builders were involved they would get it quicker.

Mr. Stanton

What is the status of a Bill promised by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to reform the law on personal injuries? When will it be published?

The Taoiseach

The purpose of the Bill is to amend the law arising from the commitments in the document An Agreed Programme for Government and the report of the Motor Insurance Advisory Board. The heads of the Bill are expected in January, after which it will be drafted.