Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Feb 2003

Vol. 561 No. 5

Leaders' Questions.

Mr. Kenny

Over recent weeks the Taoiseach has resolutely refused to answer as to Ireland's position in regard to a unilateral invasion of Iraq by the United States. I do not wish to waste his time, but I would like to ask him two questions. Has the Government had discussions formally or informally, officially or unofficially with the US authorities in regard to the continued use of Shannon in the event of unilateral action being taken, or are we to assume that America is planning an invasion on the assumption that Shannon will be available to it?

The Taoiseach has agreed that he is opposed to war and that he supports the United Nations. He has agreed with the words of Kofi Annan. In the event that Ireland sticks with the Security Council, will the Taoiseach rule out action that would weaken the United Nations and will he state clearly that he is prepared to take action to that effect?

He said yesterday that he does not want to deal in hypothetical situations and that people are not giving end-line positions. "End line position" is a term used by business tycoons. I would much prefer to hear words like "morality, leadership" and "openness", but having listened to the New Zealand ambassador this morning, I noted that he gave an end-line position, as did President Fox from Mexico and others. Therefore, they do not deal in hypothetical situations. Hypothesis is also about planning. Will the Taoiseach answer those two direct questions? What is the position in regard to Shannon? Has he had discussions with the US and will he rule out action that would weaken the United Nations?

The Taoiseach

To answer the Deputy's first question, no, we have had no discussions whatsoever with the United States formally or informally, directly or indirectly. The answer to his second question is that our position is, as it has been since last summer and in the nine weeks in preparation of Resolution 1441, which was finally adopted on 8 November, that we will continue to support the United Nations. We played a key and important – although I do not wish to overstate it – role in the preparation of Resolution 1441. We have supported the United Nations throughout and we have strongly supported it in our efforts on the Security Council. We have played a consistent role, as we have done since 1955, and we will continue to do so.

We believe that war can still be avoided. Resolution 1441 and the credible threat of force which underpins it has resulted in progress. The assistance of Shannon in its own small way has helped in that, which has been acknowledged by the European Council and the Security Council.

I will not do what some leaders have done in this regard. The Deputy was correct in saying that some people have taken categorical positions. Many of them also did that last September. The position of some of the leaders and some of the countries the Deputy mentioned was that they believed that the United States would go ahead without a resolution. They discounted Resolution 1441 as a non-event that would not happen, but that proved to be incorrect.

The Deputy is correct in that we will be consistent in our position. We will stand with the Security Council and not do anything to undermine it. We do not accept the view taken by some that a second resolution is not required. Perhaps legally and technically that argument can be made, but we do not accept it. We believe the correct thing to do politically, for the world to see how the system works, is to introduce a further resolution before there is action, but we are more interested in ensuring that there is no need for action. Therefore, all our efforts at this stage should be pointed towards avoiding war and conflict and, most importantly, keeping our focus where it should be and should remain, namely, on Saddam Hussein and his cruel regime, under which he has used weapons of mass destruction against his own people and his neighbours. He has followed a system of crime against his people and we must ensure that system is defeated and that Resolution 1441 and the principles of the other 17 resolutions prior to it are adopted.

Mr. Kenny

The Taoiseach is an extraordinary man to split another hair. He does not agree with some of the leaders who say that a second resolution is not necessary. Is he talking about the United States and Britain? The Taoiseach does not want to deal in hypotheticals, yet on "Six-one" on Monday, the Minister for Defence did deal with hypotheticals, and real ones. He said that this country had upped its security at all its airports, that we were in constant emergency committee session, that he was liaising with medical personnel and the Department of Health and Children and that he was to report to the Taoiseach yesterday morning on the possibility of any outcome, including germ warfare.

What does this mean? Is this another debacle like the factsheets and iodine tablets? Are the people to understand that, on the one hand, the Taoiseach is dealing with hypotheticals while, on the other hand, the Minister for Defence is planning for what might arise in the event of unilateral action? Those hypotheticals are the men, women and children who marched last Saturday and who live in this country.

The Taoiseach

I hope the events of 11 September 2001 have not slipped Deputy Kenny's mind. All of the actions taken subsequently in relation to security and the efforts put into dealing with the potential for biological and chemical warfare have arisen from 11 September and do not have anything to do with Iraq. The Minister for Defence has co-ordinated his efforts with the health agencies. The Minister for Health and Children has put in place many different initiatives to deal with various medical difficulties that could arise from biological or chemical attacks. We have implemented such measures throughout the last 18 months or so and will continue to do so. We have put additional resources into looking at the anthrax scare, at the smallpox scare and at what would happen if there was an attack in Britain. Of course we have heightened security. The Government would be inept, to say the least, if it did not take account of what is going on all over the world. That is the reason we have heightened security.

Mr. Allen

The Government could not secure Shannon Airport.

Mr. Rabbitte

The public will be amazed to hear the Taoiseach say that his Government has had no discussions, formally or informally, directly or indirectly, with the American Government. I wish to return to the discussion I had with the Taoiseach during questions to the Taoiseach yesterday about the millions of euro his Government is spending on promoting its own image, and to return specifically to the communications unit. The Taoiseach said that the purpose of this unit is to communicate matters from the media to Ministers and himself. I wonder whether the open letter in yesterday's Irish Examiner from the young mother of two who is a progressive MS sufferer was brought to the Taoiseach's attention by the communications unit.

This young mother of two cannot cook, cannot use the bathroom independently and cannot be transferred from her wheelchair to her bed or her car. Her two young children, aged 12 and 13, have to care for her. She lost her home help from 11 November 2002 until 9 January 2003. The bureaucratic obstruction she encounters from the health board means she is again in receipt of 90 minutes per day of assistance. Did the Taoiseach's communications unit bring this matter to his attention and that of the Minister for Health and Children and, if it did, is it acceptable to his Government?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Kenny asked whether the Government had been in contact with the United States, directly or indirectly, regarding what would happen if there was no second UN resolution on Iraq. We have had no discussion—

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow the Taoiseach to reply without interruption.

The Taoiseach

Is that the question Deputy Kenny asked?

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

We are dealing with Deputy Rabbitte's question and I have called on the Taoiseach to respond.

Mr. Kenny

On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, the Taoiseach asked—

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a point of order from another leader at this point. Allow the Taoiseach to respond to Deputy Rabbitte. I ask Deputy Kenny to resume his seat.

Mr. Kenny

The Taoiseach asked what question I asked him.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach did not ask Deputy Kenny about the Deputy's question. The Deputy should resume his seat. I will allow him to raise the matter on the Order of Business. Allow the Taoiseach to respond to Deputy Rabbitte's question.

Mr. Ring

A Cheann Comhairle, you are protecting the Government and the Taoiseach again. You should protect the House.

Mr. S. Ryan

The Taoiseach realised he was caught out.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy Ryan, this is Leaders' Questions and you are not the leader of your party. It is Deputy Rabbitte's question.

Mr. Ring

A Cheann Comhairle, you are not the leader of Fianna Fáil. You are not here to protect the Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to withdraw that remark unequivocally.

Mr. Ring

I withdraw the remark.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach to answer Deputy Rabbitte's question.

The Taoiseach

The answer is the same anyway. I am only joking, I just wanted to see what the reaction would be. I did see the sad letter from Lorraine Leake in yesterday's Irish Examiner. As I recall, she outlined the difficulties she had with her two children—

Mr. Ring

What is the Taoiseach going to do about it?

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

My information has nothing to do with the communications unit. I read the newspaper myself. Lorraine Leake – who is from Cork and probably from the Minister for Health and Children's constituency – stated that she felt the public services had not reacted quickly enough to her and that it was a bureaucratic system that had not responded to her letter. Public services should respond in the first instance and deal with cases such as this. It would not be proper for me to give the background to an individual case. Each case has its own individual circumstances. It was certainly a heart-rending letter, however, from an individual who needs support. On the general point, the carer's system—

Mr. Ring

That was cut back.

Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin

We are not talking about care assistants but the home help system.

The Taoiseach

Some Opposition Members do not know what they are talking about, that is the problem. The investment in carer's payments has increased by 250%, from €46 million a few years ago to €156 million now.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow the Taoiseach to reply without interruption.

The Taoiseach

It is totally incorrect for Deputies to say that it was cut back. The means test has been greatly improved and the circumstances for dealing with individuals like Lorraine Leake have been—

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I will ask Deputy Ring to leave the House if he does not allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption.

The Taoiseach

The carer's benefit scheme and all of the other carer's issues—

Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin

We are not talking about that.

The Taoiseach

Either we have a rule that the leaders ask the questions and I answer, a Cheann Comhairle, or we do not. Deputy Rabbitte and I read the article, but there are others here who do not know what they are talking about. I am trying to answer the question in relation to the plight and circumstances of Lorraine Leake and to try to assist that case if that is what Members want me to do. If they want to just play games and use Lorraine Leake as a reason to do so, that is very sad. I would like to try to help in the case of Lorraine Leake. I know, of course, that the Minister for Health and Children will endeavour to help also. I make the point again, however, that additional resources have been made available for the carer's allowance scheme and the home help scheme.

In a case like this, it is a matter for the health board to deal sympathetically with the individual concerned. Lorraine Leake stated that there had been no administrative dealing with her letter, and that should of course not be the case. It is wrong of an agency not to answer a letter and deal with a case. I do not have knowledge of the background circumstances, however, or of the other side of the story.

Mr. Rabbitte

It is remarkable that the Taoiseach does not have the background to the case given that he knows the name of the letter writer although I did not mention it. The funding for home help has been cut. The Minister tried to mislead the House on this matter last night but the hours have been cut back. There are 6,000 people suffering from MS in Ireland, of which about 1,000 are progressive sufferers. All of them encounter bureaucratic obstruction in being assessed for home help or a personal assistant, yet nothing is being done about it. This harrowing case is typical of the cases that exist. If the communications unit is so effective that the Taoiseach knows the name of this letter writer, why does not he know the details of the case and tell the House what he is going to do about it?

The Taoiseach

The communications unit had nothing to do with me reading the letter – I read it in the newspapers last night. It is a sad letter and, if I recall correctly, I think the writer said it was a voluntary agency and not a health board that had not replied. Deputy Rabbitte said nothing has been done but that is not true. We have made a significant investment in carers, home helps, respite carers and carers benefit schemes all of which were designed to assist people with difficulties like MS. I am well aware of MS and its progressive nature and I know many people who suffer from it. I am also well aware of the efforts made by the health boards and the aid given to organisations to assist them and we will continue to do this.

Mr. Stagg

The Government is cutting their budgets.

The Taoiseach

The letter dates from 2002, not 2003. These issues are being dealt with and there has been a considerable expansion in care and treatment. There are 4,500 additional patients receiving home help, but that does not take from what Deputy Rabbitte first asked about the sad case involving this individual. I will ask the Minister, who has probably already taken up the case, to do what he can to assist her.

Mr. P. McGrath

I doubt it.

Mr. Sargent

It is clear from the Taoiseach's previous reply that he has had contact with the Bush Administration in the United States regarding the Iraqi crisis. Will the Taoiseach outline who he has contacted, who has been in contact with him and what discussions have taken place?

Does the Taoiseach agree with the former Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr. David Andrews, Mr. Sean Donlon, the former Irish ambassador to Washington and spokespersons for the IDA, who said they do not believe there will be any negative economic consequences for Ireland if the Government takes a strong stance in opposing a pre-emptive strike on Iraq or unilateral action? Will the Taoiseach outline his position on Resolution 1441 given that other members of the United Nations are voluntarily – presumably without pressure from their opposition parties – outlining what they see as the extent and limitations of the resolution? The people took to the streets in their thousands on Saturday and given that other countries have no problem in outlining their positions, will the Taoiseach outline the Irish position?

The Taoiseach

As I previously reported to the House, I discussed this matter with Ambassador Haass a number of weeks ago. This is the only discussion I have had but we did not discuss what might happen if there was unilateral action by the United States or if Resolution 1441 was not moved on. The ambassador was aware of the Irish view from a previous meeting. Ireland believes there should be a resolution and does not believe war is inevitable. We believe in the European position outlined earlier in the week and the statement of Kofi Annan, speaking on behalf of the Security Council. We will continue to do all we can to assist in this matter.

We have said at every opportunity that we must preserve the Security Council as the body with primary responsibility for maintaining international peace and security. Ireland has always been, and will continue to be, a committed supporter of the system of collective security of the UN with the Security Council at its centre. On Monday the EU's leaders pledged their support for the Security Council in the discharge of its responsibilities. It is now up to Iraq to discharge its responsibilities.

Mr. Sargent

Does the Taoiseach agree with what David Andrews said?

The Taoiseach

I do not know what David Andrews said.

Mr. Rabbitte

Where was the communications unit?

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

I am telling the Deputy the Government's position. I am not going to answer for everybody's view on this.

Deputy Sargent, quoting one member of the public, asked about economic matters. Economic matters are not the issue.

Mr. Boyle

How will they be affected?

The Taoiseach

It is not the issue. However, there are 591 American companies in this country and total American investment in Ireland stands at over €40 billion. American industry in Ireland is bigger than either agriculture or tourism. These are facts and considerations. They are not the key issues and do not influence the Government but neither should they be ignored. I am not a hypocrite and when I go to the United States to meet the economic advisory council, support the IDA or seek changes in American tax law, I am looking to a friendly country. My interest is not in finding excuses to criticise the United States. I support the primacy of the Security Council and will remain balanced, unlike the Deputy.

Mr. Sargent

The Taoiseach still has to tell us if he agrees with Sean Donlon and David Andrews and spokespersons for the IDA that there would not be negative economic consequences. I agree with the Taoiseach that investment is important but it is not the only issue in the serious humanitarian crisis that is unfolding. Austria has similarly friendly relations with the United States but it has said that as a neutral country, it cannot allow over-flights or troop trains to go through its territory. Will the Taoiseach tell us if he will go this far?

Will the Taoiseach provide the House with information on the cost to the taxpayer of the huge increase of flights going over this country? Judging by air traffic control statistics from last Saturday, the largest aeroplanes in the world passed overhead every 20 or 30 minutes carrying tanks and military equipment to the Middle East.

The Taoiseach

Ireland has never charged for over-flights and I have no idea what the cost is. The Deputy can table a parliamentary question to ascertain those costs but he will have difficulty getting this information. Nevertheless, it is a matter for the relevant Department.

I do not know what David Andrews or Sean Donlon said.

Mr. Stagg

The communications unit is not doing its work.

The Taoiseach

This is not the issue. The Government is sticking to the position Ireland has traditionally held. Our position is trying to avoid conflict but maximising the pressure on Saddam Hussein. Some 18 resolutions have been passed in the past 12 years to ensure that he co-operates with the inspectors and complies with what the world's governments have asked him to do.

Chancellor Schüssel made a strong speech on the issue of Saddam Hussein co-operating with the inspectors and the United Nations. It is wrong to quote him out of context.

Mr. Sargent

They are not allowing overflights. The Taoiseach is misquoting me.

The Taoiseach

The Chancellor opposes the Administration in Iraq and made a strong speech on that issue the other night.