Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 25 Feb 2003

Vol. 562 No. 1

Leaders' Questions.

Mr. Kenny

Statistics show that costs in health care arising from alcohol abuse is €2.4 billion per annum. Will the Taoiseach give the House his view on the ridiculous and daft proposal floated by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to allow local authorities to set closing times for public houses? Can the Taoiseach not see the distinct and obvious dangers of adjacent local authority areas with differing closing times? Can he not see the danger of an 11 p.m. closing time in Drumcondra and a 2 a.m. closing time in Swords? Does he not see the distinct danger to those who might be tempted to drive or be driven on alcohol excursions from one local authority area to another?

Licensing laws are a matter for those in the know. Local authorities do not have any expertise in this area. Giving that kind of power to local authorities will increase pressure from local publicans to maximise incomes in any particular area. Was the proposal discussed with the Taoiseach? Was it brought before Cabinet? Is it to be discussed at Cabinet?

The Taoiseach

I can see the difficulties of this. Deputy Kenny will be aware that under existing law public houses in certain areas are permitted to remain open until 2 a.m. under special exemption orders. What he has just described is existing law.

Mr. Deasy

Why not leave it the same way?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

An Taoiseach to reply to the Leader only.

Mr. Kenny

That is not what he is talking about.

The Taoiseach

That is a fact. Under existing law, that is precisely what can happen. I see the dangers of abuse of the law but that is how things currently stand. Any club or association in a particular category under existing law can obtain an extension to remain open until 2 a.m. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is answering concerns expressed at local level about opening hours. People in the tourism industry believe they should have flexibility on opening hours in the summer time. They say it is a total nonsense that they have to close at 11.30 p.m. on Sunday night during summer time. They have expressed the view that flexibility should be allowed in this regard. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has put out, for public discussion and debate, the suggestion that local authorities should be given the power to determine opening hours in their area. The tourism related issues in their local communities could then be taken into account. We must listen to what is being said by local authorities and others.

Deputy Kenny asked for my view on this. That is how the law currently stands. That is how it operates at present. Clubs that receive exemp tions under the 1988 Act can serve food. I do not think, in response to Deputy Kenny, that there are problems with drinking on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday nights.

Mr. Sargent

The Taoiseach should visit Swords.

The Taoiseach

I do not think Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday are great days for going out, unlike Friday and Saturday. Legislative proposals in this area will have to be based on the report of the Commission on Liquor Licensing, which is due in the next month.

Mr. Deasy

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform was talking about extending opening hours on Thursday and Friday nights.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Deasy, these are Leaders' Questions. The Deputy is not the leader of his party.

Mr. Quinn

Not yet.

The Taoiseach

There are no proposals to extend opening hours on the nights mentioned by Deputy Deasy.

Ms McManus

At least the Deputy has turned up here today, unlike many Fianna Fáil Deputies. The Taoiseach appears to be the leader of a non-existent party.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McManus, is that the Labour question?

Ms McManus

No, it is a comment.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach to continue, without interruption.

Mr. Rabbitte

I have never heard such sparkling repartee.

Mr. Stanton

Except in a pub.

The Taoiseach

We will have to look at these areas when the Commission on Liquor Licensing produces its report in about a month. The Minister, Deputy McDowell, has indicated that restrictions on those under 18 entering pubs after 7 p.m. or 8 p.m. may be considered as part of his efforts to tackle under age drinking. Changes to the existing national age card scheme may be needed. The Minister intends to add other proposals in this area.

Mr. Kenny

It seems to me that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is more interested in flying kites than in fighting crime. The Taoiseach did not answer my question about whether he has a personal view on this matter. Is the Minister, Deputy McDowell, proposing to change the existing law of which we are all aware? Does the Taoiseach agree that there has been a five-fold increase in violent crime, some of it unprovoked, on the streets of Dublin? Violent and unprovoked attacks, as well as the general abuse of alcohol, are not confined to Friday and Saturday nights. Does the Taoiseach have a personal view on this matter if he agrees with the remarks I have made and given the matter has been floated for public discussion? Is the Taoiseach satisfied that the resources available to the Garda, in terms of facilities and numbers of gardaí, are adequate for the enforcement of the existing laws? It is quite clear that they cannot do that at the moment. Will the Taoiseach give his personal view on local authorities being able to set different opening hours in respect of different areas? It is a matter of the gravest concern to communities and parents in particular.

The Taoiseach

It is not a question of personal views, but of the existing law of the land and the proposals that may emanate from the Commission on Liquor Licensing. Many tourism bodies have pointed out that under certain legal arrangements, or certain interpretations of legal arrangements, people can get exemptions in certain areas but not in others. The system has worked in such a way for the past 14 or 15 years and possibly prior to the 1988 Act. The Minister receives requests from numerous interest groups as part of the debate on the liquor licensing laws – we are now on the third report – so perhaps it is no harm for local authorities and others to express their views.

Mr. Deasy

This is rubbish. The local authorities did not come up with the suggestion.

The Taoiseach

It is hard to make the system fair and governable as the law currently stands. There is no proposal to extend pub opening hours to 2 a.m., as a Deputy claimed a short time ago.

Mr. Kenny

Does the Taoiseach have a personal opinion?

Mr. Deasy

What is the Taoiseach's view of the matter?

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to conclude.

The Taoiseach

The Commission on Liquor Licensing will report in a month or so. The existing position is that extensions and special exemption orders are allowed under our licensing laws. We should wait to hear what comes from the public discussion and what the Commission on Liquor Licensing has to say. The legislation will not be changed for the time being.

Mr. Allen

We are none the wiser.

Mr. Hayes

Did we expect to be?

Mr. Rabbitte

The Taoiseach will recall that the Minister for Finance introduced us to Duncan and Mary, parents of a typical family with two children and an income of €40,000, on budget day. The Minister said that they would be better off by €95 as a result of the budget. Can I ask the Taoiseach how he thinks Duncan and Mary are faring now, after the settlement with the dentists?

Mr. Howlin

Dunkin' Donuts.

Mr. Rabbitte

EUROSTAT announced this morning that living standards in Ireland have been eroded to the extent that we are now just ahead of Spain, Portugal and Greece. How does the Taoiseach think Duncan and Mary stand after spending an additional €274 on college fees, €178 on VHI, €78 on ESB bills, €200 on medical prescriptions, €69.50 on stamp duty on ATM cards and credit cards, €90 on refuse collection, €30 on car tax, 9% on gas bills, 10 cent on a pint and a substantial amount on telephone bills? Is it not true that Duncan and Mary will soon leave the car at home? Duncan and Mary are less well-off by more than €1,000 since the Minister stood up in this House on budget day.

Mr. Quinn

Duncan's income is shrunken.

Mr. Rabbitte

Does the Taoiseach agree that Duncan and Mary's problems have been caused by a rip-off Government in rip-off Ireland? Every time one picks up a newspaper, one learns of a new spate of price increases. Patients were required to pay €13.08 on top of PRSI to get a filling under the existing dental agreement, but they will now be required to pay up to €50, as well as PRSI, as a result of the removal of the cap.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's two minutes are up.

Mr. Rabbitte

Does the Government's deal with the dentists not represent a complete surrender, which might have happened last July? Is it not indicative of modern Ireland under this Government?

The Taoiseach

I do not know what Duncan and Mary would think of the Labour Party's wealth tax, which would probably cost them more than the expenses the Deputy has mentioned.

Mr. Rabbitte

It would not affect them.

Mr. Aylward

Their house would have to go as well.

Mr. Stagg

They would not have to pay it.

The Taoiseach

I welcome the agreement with the Irish Dental Association, which will protect PRSI patients and will result in a return to a full service. The dispute has gone on for some time. The Government's main policy is to keep people working and to give them the opportunity to be in employment so they can improve their standard of living. We intend to keep taxes at low levels, 42% and 20%, and to keep additional charges to a minimum.

Mr. M. Smith

Do the Deputies opposite remember what the tax rate was after they had been in Government?

The Taoiseach

I welcome the dental association's agreement to display price lists, which has been a long-standing issue. Basic preventative dental treatment, including examination, will remain free. The Department of Social and Family Affairs will pay a 10% increase in its fees to dentists and, where relevant, dental treatment fees. The Minister has given many examples of the changes that will result from this agreement. PRSI patients earning under €45,000 per annum will face an increase of 10% on all treatments other than fillings, which will be charged at a nominal rate. Negotiations to resolve this difficulty were under way for a long time and many people were unable to get any cover for dental treatment while they were ongoing. I do not accept Deputy Rabbitte's assertions in relation to price increases. While there have been some increases, there has been an attempt to keep to a minimum increases in areas that the Government can directly control. We have tried to spread price increases in a fair and equitable way.

Mr. Quinn

That is nonsense.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Rabbitte forgot to mention the OECD report, which has been published since I last had an opportunity to speak on these matters, although I am sure he has commented on it in his other discussions. The report showed that Ireland is one of the fairest societies in the OECD in relation to single parents and the less well-off—

Mr. Sherlock

They must be joking.

The Taoiseach

—and has one of the lowest tax rates for lower paid workers. They are also significant factors in this society.

Mr. Rabbitte

I am sorry I mentioned the rip-off by dentists because that is the area on which the Taoiseach has a note to read from. He has no note on the other matters and is all over the shop on them. Not only will Duncan and Mary not be subject to wealth tax, but by the time the Taoiseach is finished, they will be eligible for family income supplement.

By an array of wealth taxes, increased charges and new levies and charges, the modest gain of €95 per annum on budget day has now been eroded to the extent that the ordinary family is €1,050 worse off, taking the Minister for Finance's example of one spouse working at €40,000 per annum with two children. That is the reality of the wealth taxes and it is borne out by the EUROSTAT report. There has been excess ive profit-taking in this economy, unchecked by anything the Government has done in recent years. That is the extent to which the ordinary family is worse off.

The Taoiseach

I reiterate that as seen in the EUROSTAT, CSO and OECD figures, the ordinary family in Ireland is working and that there is lower unemployment than in other countries. There are good and funded services, with the State paying a substantial amount towards those. More money is put into the health services here than in many countries, perhaps with the exception of France.

A range of State agencies have been involved in trying to control price and perhaps they could do more. I am on record as saying that there should be more regulation in this area and there are questions on that on the Order Paper. However, the statutory powers are in place to control that. It has been agreed with ICTU and IBEC that there will be a combined effort in areas where there has been excessive profit-taking and where unjustified price increases could be controlled. The figures which have come out in recent days, whether from EUROSTAT, the CSO or the OECD, show that the people of Ireland are working and that the less well off are treated more fairly than in other societies in the OECD.

Mr. Sargent

The Taoiseach explained the need for adjustments or cutbacks in different areas such as health, education and housing. The Taoiseach has lost the plot with regard to the issue of climate change given that there has been an 82% increase in greenhouse gas in the past six years in the context of transport.

Ireland has a 6:1 ratio of spending on roads as opposed to public transport. Is it time to go back to the 1998 national road needs study and look again at the National Roads Authority's plans to increase and develop national primary routes? The Government effectively threw out that study and proceeded with a cavalier programme involving 800 kilometres of new motorway which it is now known, since the NRA came before the Committee of Public Accounts, will not cost €22 billion but an amount that is escalating daily in an out-of-control fashion.

Given the cutbacks in various areas, which are hurting many sectors of society, is it time for an assessment of the wisdom of much of the expenditure on transportation, particularly the roads sector? There is capacity for 50,000 cars per day despite the NRA predicting only 12,000 in its needs study. Is there a need to assess this and when will that assessment be undertaken given that many people are being badly hurt by the cutbacks, particularly with regard to schools and housing? Will the Taoiseach consider this area because it is one which has not been cut back to the same extent?

The Taoiseach

It is because the need for public transport infrastructure is so great—

Mr. Sargent

Why not spend the money on public transport?

The Taoiseach

There were decades in which it was not possible to improve public transport but transport infrastructure has greatly improved in recent years.

Mr. Sargent

We are talking about roads, not public transport.

The Taoiseach

Roads are a part of transport. The Government has created for the first time an integrated Department of Transport to deal with these issues. A large amount of money was put into rail, something that had not been done for years. Work on the rail safety programme, which had lacked investment for close to 40 years, is almost complete with the servicing of the rail lines. Luas is within a year of completion and there has been huge investment in DART and rail carriages, with 100 coming on line recently. A huge amount of money has been put into Dublin transportation initiative studies on bus lanes and infrastructure.

However, roads are also required. I accept that a lot of money –€1.4 billion – is being spent on roads. Most people would contend that is not enough although it is relatively more than most countries would spend on transport. I have no difficulty with doing more with regard to rail lines. The comprehensive rail report is before the Minister and will be published shortly. It sets out what is required with regard to rail and the Government must deal with that. An enormous amount of money has been put in and the Government is committed to the rail programme.

It is not a case of one thing competing with another. Ten years ago, it was thought the population would now be 3.6 million but it is over four million. Car ownership has increased dramatically. It is not correct to say that we do not need roads or that roads will be built at the expense of other infrastructure.

An Ceann Comhairle

We must move on.

Mr. Sargent

I have a second question.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thought the Deputy had asked a second question.

Mr. Sargent

I certainly did not get an answer. I am not denying that roads are needed but I thought the national roads needs study was what the Government was working from. When the Taoiseach says that he has no difficulty with rail, he is also saying that he has no difficulty with an imbalanced ratio of 6:1 between roads and rail. He is also saying that he has no difficulty with an 82% increase in greenhouse gases over the past six years. That is completely irresponsible and will land the country in far more hot water in terms of international fines than the sums the Taoiseach mentioned. Those in the BMW region would contend that, in any case, much of that money is spent in the Dublin area and not their areas.

Will the Taoiseach carry out an assessment? He talks about the sub-committee on infrastructure carrying out one assessment on roads and another on public transport. Will he put those assessments together so that an assessment can be made on the transport needs of the country?

The Taoiseach

That is why an integrated Department of Transport was set up. All issues are being considered, not just regarding roads but also rail, aviation and other services that relate indirectly to transport such as haulage. I take the Deputy's point and he should take mine. The rail safety investment programme has been enormously successful. A number of stations have been upgraded, as have suburban rail and the DART, and there are 80 new diesel carriages.

The Department of Transport, the NRA and the various agencies are considering what is required. The national development plan provides details on the infrastructure programme. The plant allocates almost €3 billion to public transport.

Mr. Sargent

The ratio is 6:1.

The Taoiseach

That is not the case. The national development plan provides for overall funding in this area of €6.7 billion. If I recall correctly, the public transport element is €2.8 billion.

Mr. Boyle

Infrastructure costs are now running at €15.8 billion and rising.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is not taking account of the metro. The rail and Luas aspects form substantial components of public transport.