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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 27 Feb 2003

Vol. 562 No. 3

Ceisteanna – Questions. Priority Questions. - Residential Institutions Redress Scheme.

Jan O'Sullivan

Question:

2 Ms O'Sullivan asked the Minister for Education and Science the manner in which the negotiations, leading to the deed of indemnity with a number of religious congregations signed on 5 June 2002, were conducted and concluded; the advice which was sought or provided to his Department regarding the deed; if the original draft of the deed was prepared and provided to his Department by a firm of solicitors acting for the congregations; if he will publish the background documents relating to the agreement held by his Department; his plans to review the agreement; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5926/03]

On 10 of November 2000 the first meeting was held between officials of my Department, the Department of Finance, the Office of the Attorney General and representatives of the religious congregations. At that meeting the representatives for the religious congregations indicated their willingness to make a meaningful contribution to the residential institutions redress scheme.

A series of meetings followed between November 2000 and June 2001. These meetings were attended by representatives of the congregations, officials of the Department of Finance, the Attorney General's office and officials of my Department. In the course of these discussions the religious congregations raised the question of an indemnity as part of an agreement to contribute to the redress scheme. A document drafted by Arthur Cox Solicitors on behalf of CORI was not accepted by the State at that stage.

Subsequent to the discussions at official level terminating in October 2001, the former Minister for Education and Science attended further meetings with the congregations on 7 November 2001 and 7 January 2002. The outcome of these meetings was a substantially better offer than the one made prior to the termination of discussions with officials in 2001. The then Minister brought these proposals to Cabinet.

On 30 January 2002 the Government agreed in principle to all the key elements of the indemnity agreement. From January to late May 2002 a series of meetings were held at official level with the congregations and their legal advisers to finalise details of the agreement. The Arthur Cox document was used as a starting point but was substantially revised to accommodate the requirements of the State side.

The Office of the Attorney General was fully involved at all appropriate times during the course of these negotiations and his office prepared comprehensive advice for the Government prior to the decision being taken to sign the agreement. I am satisfied that the indemnity agreement contains all the essential points of a legally binding contract. There is no provision for renegotiation in the indemnity agreement and there are therefore no plans to review it.

Additional informationI assure the Deputy that all legal considerations which ought to have been considered were considered during the negotiation period and again during the final drafting of the indemnity. Certain background papers relating to the indemnity agreement were provided by my Department under freedom of information requests. Access to certain documentation was refused. This refusal has been appealed and the matter is now being considered within my Department under the internal review provisions of the Freedom of Information Act. This review will be concluded shortly.

I would add however that some of the papers to which access has been refused under the Freedom of Information Act relate to property aspects of the agreement. This matter is still being considered by officials in my Department and is the subject of ongoing negotiations with the legal representatives of CORI. I am aware that the freedom of information legislation provides that access to requested documentation can be refused where the matter is the subject of such ongoing negotiations. However when the negotiations on the property issues have been concluded and the schedules of property have been agreed, they will be made available.

When will the Minister publish the list of properties that have been transferred or are proposed to be transferred from the religious institutions? Specifically in relation to the indemnity, it was assessed that the costs would be roughly from €250 million to €500 million. Was that assessment based solely on cases that would be settled by the redress board or was an assessment made of cases that might go to court? The indemnity contains an expansion to include any court cases. The document states, "Without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, such indemnity shall extend to all loss, claims, damages, demands, expenses, costs, including legal costs and charges arising therefrom, of any kind whatsoever awarded to any claimant by any court or otherwise".

The Deputy should not quote from a document. She should just ask a question.

This is in the indemnity. Did the Department make an assessment of the cost of court cases as opposed to cases settled by the redress board? Who decided to include court cases in what would be covered by the indemnity? The information received by way of Freedom of Information Act requests and replies to parliamentary questions merely addresses costs in the redress board. Was specific legal advice given on the likely cost of court cases? If cases subsequently go to court and it finds major culpability on the part of a religious institution rather than the State, will the State still bear all of the costs? Should a court decide that significant costs should fall on the religious institutions, will such a case be re-examined?

We will publish the list of properties when it is finalised. The religious congregations produced a list of various properties they were willing to transfer but it is part of the agreement that the State has to be satisfied with the properties to be transferred. A very thorough examination is being made of the properties offered. The State has made suggestions of specific properties that might suit for the provision of a school, for example. That process continues. If we cannot reach agreement on the properties within the stipulated time, the agreement allows for the State to get cash in lieu of property. The reason the list of properties has not been published—

May I intervene and ask the Minister to proceed to answer my subsequent questions as time is running out?

In fairness, the Deputy asked five or six questions.

I have only received an answer to one of them,

I did not make the rules. However, if the Deputy is satisfied with my answer on the question of properties, I will move on to the others.

The legal indemnity given to the congregations only covers cases which can be heard before the redress board. Where a victim opts for a court hearing, the case has to be commenced within six years of the date of the indemnity. The figures of €250 million and €500 million were best guesstimates of total costs, whether the court or the redress board route was taken. There is an argument that if the State had decided to contest all of these cases, the cost of the scheme to the State as well as to the religious would be considerably less. However, that would not be in keeping with the apology the Taoiseach made to victims of abuse in May 1999. The apology would have been very hollow if the State had subsequently fought every case in the courts.

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