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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 11 Mar 2003

Vol. 563 No. 1

Order of Business.

The Order of Business today shall be No. 1, Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill 2003 [Seanad] – Second Stage. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10 p.m. Second Stage of No. 1 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 10 p.m. Private Members' Business shall be No. 31 – Freedom of Information (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 2003, and the proceedings on Second Stage thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 12 March 2003.

There are three proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed?

In view of the way the House is being treated by the Government, I object to a time limit being placed on the Bill. There is absolutely no reason on God's earth why the House cannot sit on Thursday or next week. For that reason, I oppose the Order of Business.

It is proposed to ask Deputies to sit until 10 p.m. while our betters are disporting themselves in the Cotswolds. My office was advised this morning that a meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs is to be cancelled, despite the great matters of which it is seized. Will the Taoiseach indicate if it is his intention to summon the Minister for Finance to discharge his responsibilities in the Seanad on the disgraceful filleting of the Freedom of Information Act or is it the case that there are now two rules in this House, one of which allows Members on the Government side to demonstrate open contempt for the process of passing legislation?

It is ironic that we are being asked to agree to a late sitting when the House will not sit on Thursday or next week. Many issues warrant debate. In objecting to this late sitting I ask that the business of the House be rescheduled to allow time for a debate on the crisis in Iraq. There will be a constitutional requirement to hold one.

The absence of the Minister for Finance and his Minister of State illustrates that Ministers do not have to be present when their legislative proposals are presented to the House. It means that if Ministers are away for St. Patrick's Day, the House can proceed with its business.

In the event of the British-US axis unleashing its war machine on the people of Iraq in the coming week on the expiry of the so-called deadline of 17 March, will the Taoiseach consider reconvening the Dáil in emergency session to address what would be a very serious development? Will he also indicate if such a debate will deal with the position this Parliament and the Government will adopt on behalf of the people on the question of military action in the absence of a second United Nations resolution and the continued use of Shannon Airport?

The Chief Whip explained that in the absence of a sitting this Thursday, the House will sit on Friday, 4 April. I understood that was agreed. With regard to the points raised by Deputy Ó Caoláin, I have already given a commitment to hold a debate in the circumstances he outlined and I will honour it.

Question put: "That the proposal for the late sitting be agreed to."

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, Barry.Ardagh, Seán.Blaney, Niall.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Seamus.Browne, John.Callanan, Joe.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Collins, Michael.Coughlan, Mary.Cregan, John.Curran, John.de Valera, Síle.

Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Gallagher, Pat The Cope.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Hoctor, Máire.Jacob, Joe.Kelleher, Billy. Kelly, Peter.

Tá–continued

Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Seamus.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McDowell, Michael.McEllistrim, Thomas.Martin, Micheál.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.Nolan, M.J.Ó Cuív, Éamon.

Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Dea, Willie.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Power, Peter.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wallace, Dan.Wilkinson, Ollie.

Níl

Boyle, Dan.Broughan, Thomas P.Burton, Joan.Connaughton, Paul.Connolly, Paudge.Costello, Joe.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Crowe, Seán.Deasy, John.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard J.English, Damien.Enright, Olwyn.Ferris, Martin.Gilmore, Eamon.Harkin, Marian.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael D.Howlin, Brendan.Kenny, Enda.Lynch, Kathleen.

McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Finian.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Olivia.Morgan, Arthur.Murphy, Gerard.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Pattison, Seamus.Quinn, Ruairi.Rabbitte, Pat.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Eamon.Sargent, Trevor.Sherlock, Joe.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Upton, Mary.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.
Question declared carried.

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 1, the conclusion of Second Stage of the Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill 2003 agreed?

We oppose this for the same reason we opposed the previous proposal.

There is no logical reason for the Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill to be guillotined as Committee Stage is not due to taken yet. Whatever about the need for guillotines now and again, I ask the Government to take into account that it is not required for this Bill.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with No. 1 be agreed to", put and declared carried.

Is the proposal for dealing with Private Members' Business agreed to? Agreed.

Will the Taoiseach correct the record in regard to the Freedom of Information Act? He said that the high level group was examining matters which related to Cabinet responsibility. The terms of reference of the high level group referred to issues in relation to how exemptions provided for in the Act have been applied. They are not specific and do not refer specifically to Cabinet responsibility. I invite the Taoiseach to correct the record.

Deputy, we can have that debate later.

In regard to the passing of legislation, does the Taoiseach think it is appropriate that when the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003 is going through the Seanad, the Minister for Finance and his Minister of State are absent from the country, apparently enjoying themselves in Britain?

The Bill, as the Deputy stated, is before the Seanad. It is a long-standing ruling of the Chair that business or proceedings in the Seanad should not be discussed in this House.

Does the Taoiseach think it appropriate that two Ministers who sponsored the Bill should be absent from the House? This never happened previously and it is not good enough. It shows a degree of arrogance and—

The Deputy is out of order. The Chair has ruled in accordance with precedent that it is not appropriate to discuss business that is before the Seanad.

Is it appropriate that the two Ministers should be absent from the House?

Can we get an answer?

We will have to go to Cheltenham to find that out.

The Minister for Finance has admitted privately that when he told the House last week that the constituent for whom he made the change in the Finance Bill was known to Deputy Stagg and was a voter of Deputy Stagg. Whatever about the latter, which is not supposed to be a public matter, the Minister has admitted privately that he never gave the name to Deputy Stagg and that it was an error. Will the Taoiseach give an undertaking that the Minister will come into the House, whenever he is with us again, to correct the record because that was a wanton insult thrown across the House.

You have made your point.

Deputy Stagg had nothing good, bad or indifferent to do with the fact that this constituent came along and took advantage of knowing the Minister, to put a special change through the Finance Bill for his advantage and the advantage of his investors and Deputy Stagg did not have anything to do with it.

You have made your point, Deputy.

I accept what Deputy Rabbitte said. I will bring the matter to the attention of the Minister for Finance. I accept that Deputy Stagg had nothing to do with this matter.

I welcome the vote of the Maltese people in regard to the enlargement of the European Union. It is a country which has enshrined neutrality in its constitution.

A question appropriate to the Order of Business.

Perhaps legislation on that might be appropriate. I have a question in regard to promised legislation. Baineann mo cheist le Seachtain na Gaeilge. Tá muid ag fanacht le Bille na Gaeilge ag teacht ón Seanad agus níl a fhios againn go fóill cathain a bheidh sé os comhair an Tí seo seachas le rá nuair a chríochnófar sa Seanad é. Is beag cabhrú sin dúinn agus sinn ag ullmhú don reachtaíocht. An bhfuil a fhios ag an Taoiseach cathain a bheidh sé os ár gcomhair?

Is the International Criminal Court Bill to be published, as was indicated, in mid-2003? It might be needed before that, given that not only will Saddam Hussein be in the dock in regard to crimes against humanity—

Sorry, Deputy.

—but some other world leaders will probably also be in the dock if they continue to wage war against many hungry people in Iraq.

An Taoiseach, in regard to promised legislation.

The International Criminal Court Bill agus Bille na Gaeilge.

The International Criminal Court Bill is scheduled for the middle of the year. It is to give effect in domestic law to the Rome Statute. Beidh Bille na Gaeilge anseo nuair a bheidh sé críochnaithe sa Seanad.

It is 13 days since the Taoiseach was last in the House and after tomorrow it will be another 13 days before he is back again.

Does the Deputy have a question appropriate to the Order of Business?

I have, Sir.

That is a statistical one.

The Deputy will have to get it in now.

That is a statistical question that the Minister of State might normally answer. In regard to the Good Friday Agreement, the House excused the Taoiseach for very good reasons last week and I would have expected that we would have some statements on the conclusion of the Hillsborough talks. As a party leader I was given a very detailed briefing by the Department of Foreign Affairs which I respected, as I am sure was the case with Deputy Rabbitte and other leaders. I was disappointed to see that elements of this were leaked to sections of the media and that the Taoiseach wrote an article for one of the Sunday papers. Will we have statements on the conclusion of the Hillsborough talks next week or the following week?

I thank Deputies Kenny, Rabbitte and Sargent for agreeing to my absence last week. I appreciate it, as it was helpful to me last Wednesday.

The Taoiseach should not have been absent on Thursday as well.

I am not here on Thursday in accordance with Standing Orders. The Deputy is aware of that. We came to an agreement on that a few years ago.

It was not agreed that Standing Orders be changed.

It was a Standing Order.

That was not part of a Standing Order.

Deputy Allen, allow the Taoiseach.

I appreciate that in regard to Northern Ireland, very little of what took place last week has been in the public domain. Only a small fraction of events has been made public and much of what came out is not very accurate because it was a case of parties putting their positions in regard to the talks, with which I do not have any problem. If Deputy Kenny would like a debate we will look at that possibility but, if possible, I would rather leave it for a few weeks as there will be many meetings and consultations during the weekend after parties returned to Northern Ireland so I would like to leave it until after that. I do not have any difficulty with having a debate. It might be useful at the end of the month just before we come to the final decision but I would rather give the parties another opportunity to consult.

Last week an undertaking was given to the Dáil by both the Tánaiste and the Minister for Defence that we would have a debate on Iraq. The undertaking was for a debate on Iraq – not on the desirability of unity on the Security Council. That was not the issue. In view of the Taoiseach's imminent meeting with the President of the United States, and in advance of the vote on the Security Council, people want to know where the Government stands on the option of a continuation of the work of the arms inspectors and the threat of war. No undertaking has been given as to when such a debate will take place. The clear impression has been created that we will try to slide past the meetings of the Security Council without the Government having indicated where it stands on this issue. I do not want another long homily on the desirability of unity. The Taoiseach is inclined to do that.

I do not want it either, Deputy.

Exactly. I wish to know when the promised debate will take place. Both the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs should participate in that debate. It is not acceptable—

I am afraid that we are getting into the long homily for which neither of us wish.

—that people do not know where they stand on this issue.

I have already answered the Deputy.

No, he has not.

The Deputy might consider it a homily.

He has not answered the question.

Deputy Higgins, allow the Taoiseach, please.

I will, but let him answer.

I consider what the Deputy says as a homily. I have already stated to the Deputy that I will not bring the Security Council to an end. That is not my position. I have given my position here.

On a point of order, that is not what I asked the Taoiseach.

Deputy, allow the Taoiseach, please.

I will allow the Taoiseach.

Allow the Taoiseach the same courtesy that Members are afforded.

Of course, a Cheann Chomhairle, but I will not have the Taoiseach putting words into my mouth. I did not ask him to bring the Security Council to an end. I asked him to have an opinion.

Deputy Higgins, please.

The Deputy asked me if we will have a debate on Iraq. If it is necessary we will have it next week, if not, we will have it the following week.

On a point of order, the debate was promised for this week by the Tánaiste and by the Minister for Defence.

Please, Deputy, we cannot have a debate on it now.

The suggestion is, if it is necessary.

The House was promised the debate for this week and the House is entitled to a debate, as much as the public are entitled to know where the Government stands on the question of war or allowing the inspectors to continue their work.

You have made your point, Deputy. Deputy Healy.

A Cheann Chomhairle—

Will there be a debate, as promised, in the House?

The Taoiseach answered that question.

This week?

We cannot continue to debate this issue.

On a point of order, the Minister of State indicated at a Whips' meeting that we would have a debate tomorrow evening after 8,30 p.m. She gave me the assurance that, if necessary, with the likely start of war next Monday we would have that debate, so my colleague is completely in order. We were promised a debate this week.

As I understand it, the position is that the Government Chief Whip said that it would take place, if there was a change in the position, or if the Security Council came to a conclusion, but that is not the case.

That was not the undertaking.

We are not having a debate on it, Deputy. It has been the subject of two Leader's questions.

We have had several debates on it during this session and the position has not changed. If it does, we will have another one, as I already answered about a half an hour ago to Deputy Ó Caoláin and an hour ago to Deputy Higgins.

There was no condition. Can the Whip—

Sorry, Deputy Higgins, you are out of order. We cannot have a debate on this issue now. The Taoiseach has given you a reply, Deputy. Deputy Healy.

Will the Taoiseach honour the commitment given in the House?

Deputy Healy. I have called Deputy Healy. Sorry, Deputy Higgins, we have already discussed the matter.

Does the Tánaiste's commitment to the House not stand for anything?

I am sorry Deputy, we have already discussed the matter. The Taoiseach has replied. I now call Deputy Healy.

The Tánaiste was standing in for the Taoiseach.

We cannot go on debating this issue all evening, Deputy. It has already been the subject of two questions.

Deputy Kenny has already explained—

But not on the Order of Business.

Well, where else?

—the terms on which we acceded to the Taoiseach's request not to be here. The Tánaiste stepped in for him. She gave a definite commitment, as did the Minister for Defence. Is the Government committing to a debate? Has the Taoiseach changed his mind or are we going to have a debate?

The Taoiseach has responded to Deputy Michael D. Higgins.

He has not. Who is to judge when things have changed?

In view of the large number of redundancies being announced on an almost daily basis, the clear indication that many of these redundancies are being brought forward to avoid improved redundancy payment conditions and the shameful closure of a profitable industry in Tipperary town last week, when will the redundancy payments (amendment) Bill be introduced and will it be retrospective?

The heads of the Bill have been approved and the Bill is being drafted. It is hoped it will be ready by the summer.

I call Deputy Durkan, or rather Deputy Ring.

You have passed over me again, a Cheann Comhairle, but I will forgive you.

Regarding the Local Government Bill, the Taoiseach and the Government propose that the House will sit on Mondays and Fridays. Does that mean it will not sit on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays in future?

That does not arise at this stage, Deputy.

Is that not what will happen?

Given that there is no money for youth work this year, when will the legislation necessary to establish a register of persons who are considered unsafe to work with children be introduced?

The Minister intends to bring proposals to Government in the near future with a view to establishing a cross-departmental group to finalise the proposals for the legislation. The heads of the Bill are expected before Easter and the Bill will be drafted later this year.

Some weeks ago there was a large demonstration by construction workers outside the House reacting to the death of 22 people on construction sites last year. There have been recurring accidents in industry and on construction sites. At the time we were promised the safety, health and welfare at work Bill within a short period of time. When will that Bill be introduced?

The Bill is expected in the middle of the year.

The middle of the year? Was it not promised for April?

The heads of the Bill are expected to come to Government on 17 April. I am sorry, the heads of the Bill have been approved. The Bill is due—

On 17 April.

In fact, the heads of the Bill were brought to Government on 17 April of last year. The Bill is being drafted.

When will the Bill be introduced?

In the middle of the year.

That is a long time to draft a Bill.

Can the Taoiseach confirm that the Minister for Finance is currently involved in a consultation exercise regarding the Curragh of Kildare Bill and can I welcome this new-found interest in consultation? When will we see the fruits of the consultation in the House?

The legislation is unlikely to be ready until next year. The heads of the Bill are expected in June but it will be next year before it is drafted.

Not at a gallop, then?

In light of the closures of Teagasc offices throughout the country due to the Government's massive cut in its budget, when will the House have an opportunity to discuss this issue and others like it by debating the land Bill, the forestry Bill or any other Bill? Agriculture has gone down the drain—

We cannot discuss the content of Bills, Deputy.

The land Bill will be introduced this year. It was previously called the land com mission Bill and the heads were approved some time ago. It required further work and discussion with the Department of Finance and the Attorney General but it is hoped that the Bill will be introduced this year.

The Taoiseach promised to end hospital waiting lists by 2004. We now know the true position. We have a crisis where hospital beds are being closed and patient care is being directly affected by Government cutbacks. Does the Taoiseach accept the need for a debate on the crisis in our hospital services and will he ensure that the health complaints Bill will be brought forward now so that we can have that debate and so that the patients, who are now being denied access and having access delayed unnecessarily because of Government policy may at least have their complaints heard?

The heads of the Bill to provide a statutory framework for the handling of complaints within the health service are expected by June of this year and the legislation will be available next year.

Will an amendment be made to the dual mandate Bill prohibiting Deputies and Senators from sitting in seats in Cheltenham when they should be sitting in the Dáil as Members and Ministers?

That does not arise at this stage, Deputy. The content of the Bill cannot be discussed.

Perhaps their pay should be deducted for the days they have absented themselves for no good reason.

It is good to be back, a Cheann Comhairle. In view of the increasing number of complaints regarding the health services, what is the current status of the health complaints Bill?

That question has already been answered.

In view of the seriousness of the matter, a second answer may be warranted.

In relation to No. 49, a motion in my name and the names of other Deputies, will the Taoiseach use his prerogative to recall the House next week if war is declared on Iraq?

To restate what I said earlier, if there is a change in the position, we will recall the House.

When will the Government bring in the legislation to abolish the €20 planning fee which was introduced by the last Government to limit rights in the planning area and which is considered by the EU Commission to be illegal?

A European Union opinion was issued on that matter some weeks ago. The matter is being examined by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government and he will make a decision on it.

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