Vol. 563 No. 2
126 Mr. Broughan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if it is intended to introduce legislation that will require persons between 18 and 25 to have proof of age to be present in pubs after a certain hour; his proposals to allow local authorities to fix different opening hours in their areas; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7324/03]
Section 40 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 1988 makes provision for the issue of age cards to persons who have attained the age of 18 years and who are therefore legally entitled to purchase and to consume alcohol in licensed premises. Detailed arrangements for the age card scheme are set out in the Intoxicating Liquor Act 1988 (Age Card) Regulations 1999.
This voluntary age card scheme, which is operated by the Garda, is designed to assist licence holders to comply with legislative provisions relating to under-age drinking by providing evidence of age where a doubt exists. As an incentive towards greater use of the scheme, the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2000 provides that in any proceedings against a licence holder for the sale of alcohol to an under-age person, it shall be a defence for the defendant to prove that an age card was looked for and was produced by the person in respect of whom the charge is brought. Serious penalties, including temporary closure of licensed premises, can result where a licenceholder is convicted of the offence of selling intoxicating liquor to an under age person.
In the context of the sharp increase in alcohol consumption by young people in recent years, I have given consideration to the possibility of making the age card compulsory for certain age groups when purchasing intoxicating liquor. However, certain practical difficulties arise in this context. For example, it would be unreasonable to expect young tourists and visitors to this country to apply for the card. An alternative approach would be to require all young people within a defined age category to carry some proof of age in licensed premises. The aim would be to improve compliance with and enforcement of the law in relation to under age consumption of alcohol.
At present, I am considering how best to proceed in regard to this matter. As I mentioned earlier, I am waiting for the report of the Commission on Liquor Licensing which I will have within a fortnight. Deputies can be assured that, in that context, I will take steps to bring forward a system which will be effective in combating under age drinking.
One of the difficulties with which we have to contend is that there is nothing wrong with a person aged 16 years of age spending all day and all night in a pub up to closing time. There is nothing illegal about it. There is nothing illegal in them being served Club orange if the publican is happy to have them there. There is nothing wrong with an 18 year old boy or girl bringing their 16 year old girlfriend or boyfriend into a public house and having a drink with them, as long as alcohol is not served to the under age minor. That clearly is a somewhat impractical state of affairs, certainly in regard to night time drinking. I am not against the notion of families going into pubs for soup and sandwiches, during the day especially, as that is part of our social fabric, but it does become a bit ridiculous if gardaí go into a licensed premises and find under age people there, whereupon they have to work out who is drinking alcopops and who is drinking minerals.
Why did the Minister lower the age limit for people working in pubs?
I can possibly look at that territory.
That is what happened two years ago.
I am aware that Deputy Costello is anxious to come in with a supplementary question. I have to proceed on practical propositions. I took into account the suggestion made by Deputy Deasy that everyone under the age of 20 should be excluded from pubs and I am not in agreement with that. Somebody who is old enough to vote and to marry is old enough to have a pint. What I am determined to do is bring in a system that does not allow any wriggle room on the subject of under age drinking.
I am concerned that there is a charge for the voluntary age cards to which the Minister referred. Does he propose to abolish the fee for these cards, because if one is to be charged for them the voluntary element will be taken away?
I asked the Minister a second question to which he did not refer at all, in regard to his proposal to allow local authorities to fix different opening hours in their areas.
Yes, the Minister forgot about the second half of it.
Perhaps the Minister will refer to it in his reply. In regard to the only question he answered, does he not consider it discriminatory to make it mandatory for 18-25 year olds to have cards?
Has he not considered looking at the issue from the point of view of enforcement by publicans? I would love to see the statistics, but as far as I know, and I remember it being reported in one of the reports from the Commission on Liquor Licensing, virtually no publicans are prosecuted for serving under age drinkers.
I refer to the one minute rule that governs supplementary questions.
Can the Minister not get the penalties right there?
I suggest to the Deputy, in regard to the latter question, that the probable reason for low prosecution rates is the inadequacy of the legal infrastructure that members of the Garda have to operate. They must establish that people are drinking alcohol rather than similar looking minerals. How are they to do that? Are they to go around with syringes taking samples from glasses? This is not fanciful – recently, a District Court judge threw out a case on the basis that the garda could not prove beyond reasonable doubt whether something was an alcoholic drink. This is the kind of difficulty one faces in regard to this matter.
I do not agree that charging for a card makes it involuntary. As far as I am concerned, if a card system is introduced I do not want to make it an undue burden on the taxpayer. If I made it freely available, as the Deputy implies I should, people would abuse the system and ask for a number of these cards and keep going to Garda stations to get them.
The time for this question has expired. We now proceed to Question No. 127.
Very briefly.
I just want to say one thing in regard to the one size fits all.
Very briefly.
What about the part of the question that was not answered?
Time is up.
It is not one size fits all, it is the local authorities. The Minister did not answer the first part of the question.
At the moment we have a regime in which the latest drinking hours are effectively decided by statute. The only person who is in a position to grant extensions is the local judge. There is pressure for a reduction in the licensing hours. Many people believe we should reverse the liberalisation in regard to licensing hours that was undertaken by this House just two years ago. If I am asked by this House to reduce those hours to one hour right across the country, I would need to be convinced that there should not be an option for allowing local democracy to have some input into the decision.
We are way over time on this question. Question No. 127.
This is crazy.
The Deputy may say it is crazy but it is a lot less crazy than the notion of throwing 19 year olds out of pubs.
It is a lot more dangerous and the Minister knows it.
It is a lot less—
The Minister is embarrassed by it. It is dangerous.
We are on Question No. 127. I call on the Minister to reply.
A Deputy who comes from a rural constituency, or a partly rural constituency, should know that already people travel from Tuam to Hayden's Hotel in Ballinasloe for a disco. This garbage that is being spinned out in this House that there is something wrong—
I know the Minister is going to make it worse.
—that people might move from one place to another to avail of different drinking hours is laughable.
This is something which could only be dreamed up by somebody who never passed the Red Cow Inn.
