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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 4 Apr 2003

Vol. 564 No. 4

Local Government Bill 2003 [ Seanad ] : Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

To recap on what I said last night to a much emptier House, the Green Party broadly welcomes this Bill. Its Deputies resigned their council seats within months of election. Sitting Deputies were clearly re-elected without having been councillors at the last election. We did not think that the crutch of being councillors was needed to get elected. It is possible to secure election without being a councillor and we believe that is the way forward. For that reason, my party supports this Bill, warts and all. I will get to the warts shortly but, first, I want to respond to some of the comments made by the Minister during his speech last night.

As the Minister said from the outset, the Bill is clearly not a comprehensive overhaul of local government. The Green Party environment spokesperson, Deputy Cuffe, for whom I stand in today, has made numerous and comprehensive proposals to reform and revitalise local government. However, the unfortunate truth is that while this Administration and its predecessors have made some effort to achieve progress, for every stumble forward there are two cute hoor steps back.

Language, please. The Deputy is not at home.

It is a fact. The Government talks about decentralisation but all it does is relocate centralised Government Departments to favourite constituencies. It does not give local government any extra powers.

It is also a fact that while the Minister's predecessor attempted to streamline local government by establishing area committees and strategic policy committees, etc., and by making a councillor's job payable on a part-time basis - the other part being voluntary - he did not provide adequate certainty of funding for councils to deal with these new systems. While a new breed of semi-professional councillors was created, even more power was taken out of the hands of locally elected representatives in favour of county managers and other non-elected officials. Waste management was alluded to last night by Fine Gael and is one shameful example of the attempts being made to steamroll valid local objections to environmentally damaging incinerators and other technology such as this.

Where is the democratic accountability? In essence, successive Ministers for the Environment and Local Government, mainly Fianna Fáil Ministers, have damaged the local authorities to such an extent that the system is now hobbling along. Much needs to be done but very little has yet been done. New powers are required for local government and elected representatives, with certain checks and balances to ensure that such powers are not abused, as was so often the case in regard to the rezoning of land. I could continue on this issue if not for the short amount of time available to me.

Local government has clearly not worked – this has been stated before and will be again. However, we should not focus on the broad strokes because this is a small, specific Bill. The Green Party believes that the ending of the dual mandate will go some way towards revitalising local councils and infusing the new blood, ideas and commitment towards working exclusively at local level that national Deputies and Senators can never have.

How can Members be stuck in the Houses, waiting for votes, sitting on committees, and tabling motions, questions and Adjournment debate matters while also carrying out council work effectively? Perhaps one could if one did not have a life, but who wants a tired, clapped-out shadow of a public representative? It is better to allow Deputies and Senators to focus on their primary role and for them to do that well rather than also trying to compete with other councillors in the run-up to the 2004 elections.

The Bill is flawed, particularly in regard to the taking away of the provision for directly elected mayors, which is a backward step and one that can only be seen as a sop to Fianna Fáil backbenchers who do not want the popular vote electing someone who might have a radical idea or vision. The way around this, of course, is to ensure that any candidates must already have experience as a locally or nationally elected representative. The Minister has taken the easy way out.

The activities of Government backbenchers in opposing the war and on the Freedom of Information Act show that they are all talk and no action. For that reason, I am sure that this Bill will receive wholehearted support from the Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrats benches. However, in case some Opposition Members do not agree with the provision to abolish double-jobbing, the Green Party is indicating that it is quite willing to support the Government.

Section 4, another flawed part of the Bill, states that the Minister shall issue guidelines to local authorities. Will the Minister provide clarity in relation to these guidelines? Is it not possible to provide for a legally binding directive in relation to the information that can be supplied?

For the information of the Deputy, when the Bill was passed by the Seanad, it changed all that to statutory declarations. I am not issuing guidelines but statutory declarations.

I am glad that the Minister has clarified the matter, as it is hugely important.

The Deputy should have a copy of the Bill as passed by the Seanad.

The Green Party would love to have some Senators and hopes to be in a position to have some elected after the next local and general elections.

Deputy Sargent should have ensured his colleague had an up-to-date version of the Bill.

My party would like local county managers to be more transparent. A ‘'members' net", which allows councillors to access information, has been established by South Dublin County Council, of which I am a member. I would like Deputies to be able to access information in a similar manner.

I made a suggestion last night as a means of relaxing those terrified by the prospect of losing their Dáil or Seanad seats in the event of the abolition of double-jobbing. I mentioned that electoral reform should be considered with local government reform. The Minister was present for my contribution but other Deputies may not be aware that I spoke about the possibility of single seat constituencies, filled by the single transferable vote system and top-up lists.

My party would welcome it.

Such a system would remove some of the pressure—

Do other Opposition Deputies believe in such a system?

—from Members of the Oireachtas who are worried.

No, we would not accept it.

Deputy Gogarty should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Can you confirm, Minister—

If the Deputy addresses his remarks through the Chair, he might not invite interruption.

Can the Minister confirm whether any such plans—

The Green Party is obviously heading for coalition.

Can the Minister confirm whether any such plans are in the pipeline?

We will support single seat constituencies.

My party would like to participate in a debate on electoral reform, if it is coming. Is the abolition of the dual mandate a forerunner of such reform? The abolition of the dual mandate, in itself, has its merits. Whatever about the flawed nature of this Bill, the Green Party supports the fact that it will bring about the removal of the dual mandate. In the unlikely event that Deputy Ring is right and the abolition is found to be unconstitutional, my party would support an amendment to the Constitution. It is a sufficiently important issue for the people to be consulted.

It is all right for Members of this House to be solicitors, publicans and auctioneers.

That is right, not to mention journalists and hypocrites.

Deputy Healy should allow Deputy Gogarty to speak without interruption.

I look forward to Deputy Healy's speech.

Party members are also allowed to become Deputies.

As I have said before, I enjoy the banter in this House. It is better than reading from scripts because it livens up the proceedings, and the more the merrier.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I wish the Minister for Finance was here in order that I could have a go at him.

The Deputy should throw his script away.

The removal of the link between national and local government could lay the foundations for a vibrant and self-confident local authority structure. This Bill should mark a tentative first step towards making local government fluid, energetic and, heaven forbid, transparent. While my party supports it because local government does not have the positive characteristics I have mentioned, where is the reform that the Minister has promised? When will the other reforms be brought forward? Such reforms are necessary if the abolition of the dual mandate is to benefit local government and be anything other than a false dawn.

I agree.

The Local Government Bill 2003 is needed as a result of the refusal of Fianna Fáil backbenchers to accept the abolition of the dual mandate during the last Dáil.

Deputy Cassidy.

They were more interested in protecting their perceived power bases in their constituencies—

Successfully.

— than in bringing new people through to local government. This welcome legislation is poisoned by the inclusion of a section that will end, even before it has started, the direct election of mayors and chairpersons of local authorities. This is equivalent to offering someone a lovely dessert but not the main course.

There is no dessert during Lent.

Deputy Morgan, without interruption.

The Government has certainly left no cream on this Bill, which is most unfortunate.

Deputy Cassidy is all right because he has a safe seat.

Democracy at local government is the main course and should not be thrown away before it has started.

We are providing the entrée.

Ministers with responsibility in this area have been saying for years they will give significant powers to local authorities.

Will the Deputy's party support the Bill?

Deputy Morgan, without interruption

Where are these powers? Have we seen them? Of course not.

The Deputy should go on the record.

We have seen the opposite. The previous Minister for the Environment and Local Government revoked the power of local authorities to make waste management plans because councillors were prepared to represent their constituents by refusing to accept the crazy notion of incineration plans.

I suspect that this matter will be the subject of a tribunal at some future stage.

Is the Deputy supporting the Green Party?

I acknowledge that progress was made under the stewardship of the previous Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, who enshrined the role of local government in the Constitution. This Bill represented an opportunity to build on that positive move but, unfortunately, the fact that it includes a reckless section on mayors and chairs means that if it is passed, it will be remembered—

The Deputy is looking for an excuse, which is typical Sinn Féin behaviour.

—for the damage it has done, instead of the good and important progress that could have been made.

The Deputy should stand up and be counted.

Rather than providing for a measure of real democracy, the Bill leaves us with the ubiquitous and autocratic county managers who are responsible to almost no one. I do not have to look too far to see examples of decisions that are arrogant and – I say this reluctantly – downright stupid, in some cases. I had to bring the manager of Louth County Council to the High Court on an issue of the utmost importance to my constituents. If the manager in question had simply used his fingers to count the result of a vote, he would have known that he was wrong and would have saved the people of County Louth in excess of £40,000. We all know that such people can be arrogant and all-powerful but their power derives primarily from the Minister for the Environment and Local Government.

It is the Minister's fault.

Deputy Morgan's comments are grossly unfair to somebody who is not here to defend himself.

The Minister has said that the county manager in question is not here to defend himself—

County managers have all the power and no accountability.

—but such people would not be elected. I am saying that those who want to have such powers should have to be elected. If the power to determine who should carry out the functions of a local authority manager was given to the electorate, such managers may be here to defend themselves at some stage.

The Deputy is doing a good job of talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Deputy Morgan, without interruption.

Mayor Morgan.

The Minister knows the dangers involved in such a move. That is the reason he is omitting such a provision.

The Deputy is getting carried away.

The Minister is tearing the heart out of this section.

If Deputy Morgan addresses his remarks through the Chair, he might not invite interruption.

I am happy to invite comment from the Minister, a Cheann Comhairle. The only difficulty is that it is hard to hear him because I have a touch of Army deafness.

Which army?

I would respond more accurately to the Minister's comments if he shouted a little louder.

To which army does the Deputy refer?

Deputy Morgan should not invite the Minister to be disorderly.

Was the Deputy's involvement with an army in an official or unofficial capacity?

Is the deletion of Chapter 3 of Part V of the Local Government Act 2001 assisting local democracy? Of course, it is not – it is very wrong. The supposed commitment of the Minister to local government reform is laughable. I remind Deputies that he is also seeking, through the Protection of the Environment Bill 2003, to further destroy local democracy by giving increased powers to city and county managers. People will no longer accept the arbitrary transfer of control of their local authorities to such managers by a Government which is obviously annoyed by what it sees as the nuisance of local democracy.

There is a pressing need to reform the financing of local government. It is worth noting that Ireland has one of the lowest rates of local government expenditure, as a percentage of total expenditure, in the European Union. Local authorities are unable to raise funding in an equitable and fair manner.

I look forward to giving them the power to do so.

They should be allowed to raise funds, not only to provide local services but also to fund the long-term development of local economies and communities.

We will see what will happen.

Local authorities are continually reacting to funding crises and are now being forced to implement Government cut-backs. They are forced to introduce penal charges such as planning levies because they do not have the finance they need for important projects such as building social housing. Exorbitant parking charges are also seen to an increasing extent. The formulation of estimates is controlled by unelected city or county managers and only the Minister can sanction extra expenditure. This is completely unacceptable because, as we know, the hands of local authorities are tied without financial control. They are threatened with dissolution each year if they do not impose service charges. Legislation should be bought before the House to give them far greater autonomy in determining and controlling expenditure.

I ask the Minister to elaborate on the comment he made during his speech last night. He said that a major independent review of local government funding will get under way shortly. I look forward to that and I hope the review is imaginative and creative because it is long overdue. I hope that I will be able to commend the Minister when speaking to a future Bill in the manner I was able to commend his predecessor, Deputy Noel Dempsey. Perhaps the only agreement I had with Deputy Dempsey involved his decision to make constitutional provisions for local government.

I welcome wholeheartedly the ending of the dual mandate which I hope marks the dawn of a new era for local government. I urge that the provision for the direct election of cathaoirligh be reinstated at the earliest opportunity.

Will the Deputy support the Bill?

If the Minister accepted—

Go on, go on.

—an amendment from me to prevent the Bill wrecking local authority powers, I would be happy to support the legislation.

The Deputy is looking for a way out.

On balance, I seek to end the dual mandate, but the Minister will have to wait a little longer for my support.

Hear, hear. The Government will have to sweat it out.

One person cannot carry out the functions of two separate elected bodies effectively.

Sinn Féin is never shy of obfuscation.

It is probably their dual mandate.

At local authority level, we have seen the introduction of strategic policy committees. Most local authority members sit on two committees and if they are to be developed effectively, those members must be dedicated to the role. With all the work that goes on in this House, it is impossible for Deputies to devote a sufficient amount of time to local authority work. Representations must be made continually to local authorities by Deputies on issues such as housing, planning, roads and drainage. The increasing workload of Deputies makes it impossible for Members to do both jobs. It will come as no surprise to hear that Sinn Féin is totally in favour of the abolition of the dual mandate.

Hear, hear.

I am absolutely in favour of the ending of the dual mandate. Some people put up the argument that we are being too restrictive. There are already a number of restrictions involved in any election. If you are not 18 you cannot vote in this State, though I heard it argued recently at a debate I attended that the age should be lowered to 16. You cannot contest a presidential election unless you are 35, which is not a problem here as almost everybody, with the possible exceptions of Deputies Gogarty and English, would qualify.

Next Christmas. Do not rule me out yet.

Perhaps that is welcome. There are also significant restrictions on voting rights in this State for EU citizens in general elections. The concept is not new and I do not accept the arguments that have been put forward by those who oppose the ending of the dual mandate that the restriction on Senators and Deputies is unfair.

The concern I have relates to the overuse of centralised power, which is unfair. It corrupts local authorities, not in the financial sense, but by forcing them to implement all sorts of planning levies and parking fees. For example, in my own county a planning levy of €3,300 is imposed on a young couple applying for permission to build their first house. How can that be fair, particularly in the context of the ending of the first time buyer's grant in the budget? It is a gross imposition on the very people local government should support. I ask the Minister to look closely at that.

I hope the dual mandate ends, but it is equally important to ensure that city and county managers are not given additional power. There is an opportunity to replace city and county managers with representatives who are directly elected by the citizens and voters of a city or county. I ask the Minister to take that opportunity. He still has time to delete the corrupting section from the Bill to allow this to proceed. I would be favourably disposed to support the Bill in such circumstances.

I am opposed to this Bill and I will vote against it at the conclusion of the debate. The objective of the legislation is to undermine the democratic process by ensuring that the public is not entitled to elect whomsoever they wish to this House. It will also undermine the democratic process whereby the public has a right to elect directly a chairman or mayor of a local authority.

We are being told that the preparation, promotion, formulation, discussion and passing of legislation are the prime responsibilities of Members of this House and of the Seanad, which is correct. The Minister made the point again last night when he stated ". . . as Parliament evolves still further in tune with the key role of the Oireachtas which, under the Constitution, is charged with the sole and exclusive power of making laws for the State". I accept that, but the real objectives of the abolition of the dual mandate and the right to elect directly mayors and chairmen are threefold.

This Bill will set the scene for massive increases in local taxation. In the course of the last general election I looked at the economic programmes of the main political parties. I stated publicly that they pointed to increased taxation and new taxes at local level in particular. That trend has already begun. We have seen huge increases in refuse charges this year, which went up by one third in my own local authority area. Similar increases have occurred right around the country and charges are set to become even greater. We have seen an increase at local level in the new charge for waste water and we hear talk of the reintroduction of local authority rates and/or the introduction of a local income tax.

The second aim of this Bill is to ensure that Government Deputies and Senators are removed from the line of fire when the huge taxation increases are introduced. Third, the Bill seeks to undermine currently elected Independent Deputies and attempts to ensure that more are not elected. The election of Independent Deputies to this Dáil and the last has put the fear of God into the political parties, which is part and parcel of the reasoning behind the introduction of this legislation.

If the Minister accepts that legislation is the prime responsibility of this House and the Seanad, does he not think it odd that consideration of no Bill requires Deputies to attend the Dáil?

Maybe it should. The Deputy is right.

If the Minister believes legislating is their prime responsibility, Deputies and Senators should be required to attend the Houses of the Oireachtas. It is a disgrace that a Deputy can be elected and attend the Clerk's office to sign the register, after which he or she need never attend here again while getting paid. It is an outrage.

That is nonsensical.

It is absolutely true. I will put down an amendment to this Bill to ensure that Deputies and Senators are required to attend the Houses.

They will be docked their pay.

There should be a requirement to record abstentions in this House. We have been benchmarked with senior civil servants. The conditions of employment of Members of the Oireachtas should be similar to those of civil servants in the case of annual, compassionate and sick leave and other arrangements.

Hear, hear.

There is much talk about double-jobbing. This Bill will outlaw the right of the electorate to elect whomsoever they wish to this House, yet there is double-jobbing on all sides of this House. There are Members who are still active as auctioneers, solicitors, publicans, businessmen and Deputies traipsing all over the world on lecture tours. Where is the consistency in that?

They are inactive politicians.

That is true of a lot of them. On many occasions when votes are taken there can be less than 120 Members voting. If we are to abolish the dual mandate, where is the consistency in relation to members of the European Parliament and Members of the Dáil? There is no abolition of that.

There is. It will be abolished from 2004. The European Parliament agreed it. The Deputy should know his facts. It is gone.

Members of this House can have five or six jobs if they wish and now the Minister is attempting to ensure that the public are not entitled to elect whomever they wish to this House. It is a question of democracy.

The Deputy can make his choice.

The main element of this Bill is the abolition of the direct election of mayors and chairmen. This provision was put in place just two years ago with huge fanfare. On that occasion the then Minister spoke about innovative measures and proposals. He stated:

It is my intention also to promote another powerful impetus for change in the internal dynamics of local government through the direct election of a full-time cathaoirleach of cities and counties with a term of office for the five year life of the council. I am talking about a cathaoirleach who is directly answerable to the people and accountable to the elected council, who must work with the council to deliver on a full potential of the office, which is highly visible and accountable, a person elected by the people who draws on powerful democratic legitimacy to speak and negotiate on behalf of the whole community.

Less than two years later the position has changed completely. It has been turned on its head because the Minister and the Government are afraid of independent non-party candidates standing for the position of mayor and cathaoirleach. The Fianna Fáil backbenchers have ensured that this proposal is not in this legislation. I will be opposing the Bill.

For the Deputy's information, it was proposed by the General Council of County Councils.

It was in the legislation two years ago. What has changed since?

I have been a Member of this House for about 14 years and I know the one thing Fianna Fáil is not afraid of is an Independent. Fianna Fáil can live with as many Independents as will be elected to this House.

We will see.

The only thing that bothers Fianna Fáil is the prospect of an alternative Government and the more Independents there are, the less prospect of that.

I thank Deputy Gogarty and the members of the Technical Group for agreeing to take up my speaking slot in the House yesterday evening. I apologise to the Minister and the Fine Gael spokesperson for my inability to attend the opening of the debate. I was at a selection convention to select a replacement for former councillor Frank Smith of my party who unfortunately is ill at present. I think it appropriate at the outset of a debate on local government legislation to say very simply that if the local government system had more people like Frank Smith, it would be a lot better in every way and much less in need of reform.

Many colourful things have been said both in this debate and in the public discussion about the ending of the dual mandate. My prize for the most colourful so far was a statement issued by the Minister on the day he launched the Bill:

The complete separation of local government from the national Legislature is a historic development, 80 years after the State was founded. It is possibly the single most significant change in the administration of local government since the present system was constituted by Gerald Balfour at the end of the 19th century.

That is a load of bull's excrement. This Bill is not reforming local government. In his opening remarks on the legislation, the Minister now has rowed back from these high aspirations for the legislation.

I have not rowed back.

He says the Bill is clearly not a comprehensive overhaul of local government. It certainly is not. The only thing this Bill does is row back on the one modest, although significant, change in local government legislation which the Minister's predecessor put through the Houses of the Oireachtas before the last general election. It is taking out the right of the people to directly elect city and county mayors or cathaoirligh and doing so for one simple reason: it is now perceived by the Government to be in Fianna Fáil's electoral interest not to have direct elections for city and county mayors, whereas it was perceived by them that a system of electing city and county mayors in the climate of high opinion poll ratings which they enjoyed at the time of the first Bill's passage through the House would result in the election of the Fianna Fáil gauleiter in every county being elected as the county mayor. This is being done for Fianna Fáil's electoral advantage, not for the reform of local government.

This Bill is utterly inadequate as any attempt to reform local government and, for those reasons, the Labour Party will vote against it. What is recognised as local government in most other countries does not exist in Ireland. We do not have a system of local government but rather a system of local administration which is overly bureaucratic, inefficient, inappropriate for the requirements of today, often irrelevant to the needs of the people it purports to serve, impenetrable for the public and in my view highly undemocratic.

Instead of having a system of local government we have direct rule from Dublin with county managers carrying out the bidding of the Custom House. Elected councils are increasingly stripped of either the powers to make policy, to direct county managers or even to hold the system of local administration in its many manifestations to public account. In the past five or six years, particularly since the election of the Fianna Fáil - Progressive Democrats Government in 1997, the democratic functions which traditionally attached to elected local authorities have been increasingly removed and transferred in a succession of measures to unelected officials and unelected public bodies. The responsibility for roads, which was transferred under the Roads Act to the National Roads Authority, has been consolidated, with the whole system of approval of major road schemes transferred to An Bord Pleanála and taken out of the democratic stream of decision-making.

The making of waste management plans was transferred initially to county managers by a default mechanism under the original Waste Management (Amendment) Act and, more recently, that power has been made absolute under the so-called Protection of the Environment Act. County managers will now make the waste management plans and decide on issues which are of key concern to local communities. The decision on the making of Traveller settlement plans has been, in effect, transferred under the Traveller Accommodation Act to county managers.

I do not know how many Members of the House have had the experience of initiating a review of their county development plan under the provisions of the Planning and Development Act 2000. When they do they will discover, as I have, that what had previous been an absolutely reserved function for the elected members of local authorities has in many respects been handed to county managers. Instead of the normal function of making their county development plan, elected members of local authorities are now being invited to do no more than rubber stamp the drafts prepared by managers and the strategic planning guidelines which have been prepared by officials of the Minister's Department.

Bureaucrats.

The whole process has been framed in such a way with timetables and default mechanisms that, in effect, the real decision-making power has been taken from elected members and handed to officials. Even the process of the adoption of the county estimate, which, in addition to the making of the county development plan, was traditionally a function of elected members of local authorities, has now, in effect, been transferred to county managers. This was done through the mechanism of the threat that exists under local government legislation whereby if a local authority does not adopt its estimate on time, the council will be abolished. The Minister seems to have taken to that provision with an enthusiasm which was not evident in any of his predecessors.

It happened on only four occasions. It is not important.

The Minister is anxious to get his hands on it. The process by which estimates are adopted is also constrained by the many rules and regulations issued by the Department. Under the legislation which the Minister will introduce in this House shortly, the responsibility for waste charges will be transferred to county managers.

I agree with Deputy Healy who said that the decks are being cleared for the Government to say it not increasing taxes. It is creating a situation whereby it will use the local government system to introduce taxes and charges by the back door—

That is correct.

—and then wash its hands of it by saying it has nothing to do with it and it is a matter for the local council.

Waste charges are now running at €200 to €400 in most counties. The Minister said at the Oireachtas Committee on the Environment and Local Government that he wants to see local authorities charging the economic cost for waste. He gave an estimate of what it will be and, based on that, people will be charged in the region of €600 to €700 per household for waste collection. I see the Minister nodding in agreement.

Perhaps €1,000.

In addition, the three wise men recommended at the time of the last budget that water charges should be reintroduced. Deputy Healy referred to the charges for waste water. There is the question of road tolls and so on. There is another provision which to my knowledge has not been exercised by any local authority. I believe in time that local authorities will be told to exercise a measure whereby it can introduce a charge or community levy for the provision of services in local areas.

They are doing it already.

It is not rocket science. The Government fooled the people before the last election by saying it would improve public services, including building schools, hospitals, roads and anything one wanted while not increasing taxes. It wants to come in here on budget day and tell the House and the public that taxes have not been increased. The PD wing of the Government, and their ideological fellow travellers within the Cabinet, of whom the Minister is one —

I am not.

—want to be able to tell the people that they have reduced taxes and are keeping taxes down, while at the same time they are using local government to increase taxation.

There is precedent for this. Precisely the same was done in the 1980s in the neighbouring jurisdiction. When the Thatcher government of the 1980s wanted to convince the public it was reducing taxes, it dismantled the democratic system of local government, abolished the Greater London Council, rubbished the operation of democratic local authorities and used the same local authorities to introduce the poll tax, which was eventually the downfall of that particular Administration. We are going down exactly the same route.

That is absolutely correct. Martin Thatcher.

The Government is maintaining the fiction that it is keeping down taxation and then using the local government system, from which it is stripping powers, as the tax gathering system.

The Deputy should read his own White Paper.

Deputy Gilmore, without interruption.

What is happening here in terms of the public is extremely dangerous. The Minister and the Government are creating a dangerous democratic vacuum at local level. Governments have historically been ambiguous about local government. It is understandable, perhaps, that in a country where the population is approximately four million, significantly less than the population of many large cities either in Europe or the United States, there would be a tendency towards centralisation. That tendency towards centralisation has been exacerbated and exaggerated by the unhealthy political history in this State where, by and large, the country has been governed for the past 70 years by one party, with just occasional interruptions.

A very unhealthy situation.

In a country with a small population and a centralised system of public administration, with one party rule, where that one party has its own local network and so on, there was, at the very least, no incentive to create or encourage a healthy system of local government. There was every intention, deliberate or not, to downplay local government and to discourage it from developing.

When my colleague, Deputy Howlin, was Minister for the Environment he attempted, in the Better Local Government document, to set a framework for the reform of local government. It was intended to be no more than a start to a process. The basic idea was, first, to include the wider community and civic interests through the strategic policy committees and other such bodies. The development of the SPC system would build a structure within local authorities that would be headed on the administrative and management side by a director of services and on the political side by the chair of the SPC. In turn, the chairs of the SPCs would constitute what would effectively be a local cabinet. The chairs themselves would be drawn from the broad representation of the membership of the local authority rather than the traditional winner takes all system. This would then be supported by the local authorities having some independence in revenue raising, for example, by the establishment of the local government fund, the dedication of motor taxation to it and, in the view of the then Minister, the right of the local authorities to have some discretion on setting the levels of motor taxation, including possible increases.

I attended the Local Authority Members Association conference held in Wexford at Easter 1998 at which the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Noel Dempsey, outlined his vision for the future of local government. I agreed with much of what he said and I took the view that he was serious about building on the start made by the former Minister, Deputy Howlin. As part of his vision, the Minister, Deputy Dempsey indicated his intention to end the dual mandate entitling Members of the Oireachtas to be members of local authorities and to introduce a new tier of democratic election to the local authority system which would include the creation of full-time elected city and county mayors.

Subsequent developments have reversed that process. The better local government document has been used not to reform but to reinforce the bureaucratic side of local government. It was a mistake to dismantle the professional tier of local government, the system of county engineers, architects, planners etc. and absorb it into the director of service system. That has seriously weakened the professional and technical side of the local government service. It has also contributed to the drift away from the local authority service of professional staff who see little for them in the traditional career structures. Ultimately, the administrative and managerial side hold the advantages in terms of promotional opportunities. It has been a regressive step.

While the appointment of directors of services has increased the number of managers in local authorities, it has not improved the quality of management. The operation of the SPC system is far removed from what was intended. The so-called strategic policy committees meet quarterly in most local authorities. If a member of a local authority puts down a motion about a policy issue it is immediately shunted to the SPC. It may take three or four months for the SPC to consider it and when it does so it is used as a means of rubber stamping the policy paper presented by the manager. In effect, the SPC system, which was designed to increase the involvement of the public and the attention paid to strategic policy issues, has worked in reverse. There is now less consideration by local authorities of policy matters and strategic issues.

The entire system is under review.

This is what we need to address.

I agree with the Deputy.

To term the net effect of this a system of local government would be an exaggeration. Increasingly, the elected representatives have less of a say. We have a system of local administration which has become much more bureaucratic and less accountable, penetrable and accessible for the public. Members of the public are becoming increasingly disenchanted with it. They are becoming alienated from their local authorities and are losing confidence in those they elect because they see they have no power or, if they do, that they will not exercise it. They also find they have no way of accessing the local authority.

When anything needs to be done we increasingly look somewhere other than the formal local government system to address it. For example, the drugs issue was not addressed by the local authorities but by the establishment of drugs task forces in local areas. When the issue of traffic in a big city like Dublin has to be addressed it is no longer done through the local government system. I understand the Government is preparing legislation on a traffic or transport authority for the greater Dublin area. When the Government had to consider the strategic planning of the greater Dublin area it could not, or did not, do so through the local government system. The Department of the Environment and Local Government prepared guidelines which the Government superimposed on the system. Even when something major happens in a locality or a city, such as the loss of a major industry, the local authority or city or county mayor no longer drives the process. The Minister is asked to establish a task force.

A new network of organisations has developed at community level which bypasses the local government system. From speaking to school principals who work in disadvantage areas, it is clear that the initiatives taken to address disadvantage now involve the establishment of new task forces, committees and so on.

All should be returned to local government control.

The present system is out of control.

At one level, local government is being bypassed where matters overlay the existing local government structures and where community development requires initiatives to be taken while at another level the area in which it had power has been effectively removed from it.

That is why we need reform.

The Minister is not reforming it.

That is what should be done.

The only provision which was in the Local Government—

This Bill is providing for absolutely fundamental reform.

Will the Minister allow the speaker in possession to make his contribution?

There are two essential measures in this Bill. Neither I nor the Labour Party has any great difficulty with the ending of the dual mandate. When the legislation was before the House previously the Labour Party supported the ending of the dual mandate. It is our considered and collective view, not necessarily shared by all our Members, as would probably be the case across the House, that the time has come whereby, because of the demands of the work of the Oireachtas and demands at local authority level and so on, it is not possible for a Member to be on a local authority and a Member of the Oireachtas simultaneously. We do not have a great difficulty with that.

There is no point in arguing that by taking Deputies and Senators out of local authorities one is reforming local government. That is not the case.

It is a huge change.

The original idea of ending the dual mandate was in a particular context where there would be a full-time political presence in the local authority and that the full-time political presence would be the directly elected—

—city or county mayor.

One can still do that.

The situation will be made worse if the Minister abolishes both the dual mandate and the idea of directly elected city and county mayors. When the Members of the Oireachtas were gone, the idea was that there would be a full-time directly elected city or county mayor, whose powers would be modest, who would ride shotgun on the manager. That is gone now. The only democratic strengthening which was proposed in the original legislation is being taken away.

We need a reform of local government which addresses three key areas, the first of which is the issue of structures. It is time we moved away from the traditional city and county structure for local government.

I agree.

We need to look at the national spatial strategy and where settlements have occurred and try to reconstruct our local government system around that. There is a loyalty to the county structure, largely because of loyalty to GAA teams and all that goes with them. A different system of local government does not in any way undermine that. There can be two county councils in Tipperary and it does not mean Tipperary supporters will shout with two different voices at an All-Ireland final. There are three county councils in Dublin and neither there nor in Northern Ireland, where the system of local government is no longer based on the county system, does it undermine loyalty to the county teams.

We need to move away from the county idea. For example, the towns of Bray and Greystones have more in common with the greater Dublin area than with the towns of Carnew or Dunlavin which, in turn, probably have more in common with Athy and Carlow than with the towns on the east coast of Wicklow. Another example is Gort, in my native county, which has more in common with Ennis than with Clifden. We need to relook at the structures of local government.

I am open to that.

We need to look at the functions and particularly the issue of resources which I have not had time to address. Unless local government is resourced it will not be able to deliver the service people need.

The principal issue being addressed in the Local Government Bill 2003 is local authority and parliamentary membership and the ending of the dual mandate. Unlike many Members I have been a long time supporter of this idea. I am also in a unique position in that I have tasted all the different levels of participation that exist.

Clearly the first result of making this change is that a considerably greater number of persons will participate in our democracy. Sometimes people dismiss that as a small point but I hold that it is a major advantage as 120 extra people will participate directly in local authorities who would otherwise be excluded if the dual mandate were to continue.

Hear, hear.

This is an important point that has not been addressed. The level of time commitment which my former colleagues on Clare County Council devote to their representational duties is much greater than when I first joined the local authority in 1985. This is partly due to the number of special policy committees, area committees, county development boards and so on which have been set up. It is fair to say some of those bodies are still finding their feet and some have not turned out be as useful or as proactive as had been hoped. The more time their members have to devote to participation the more effective they are likely to be. There are other constraints which will have to be addressed to make them as effective as they have the potential to become. On balance, the ending of the dual mandate is a positive move in relation to the development of these committees.

One of the results of the proposal which has been around since at least the early 1990s is that it has spawned a proliferation of constitutional lawyers and, no doubt, the issue will be tested in the courts. Only then will the outcome of that element be known.

I served as a councillor for seven years before being elected to the Oireachtas. During the following five years I served as a member of both Clare County Council and the Dáil. Since 1997 I have served as a Member of this House only. My experience has been that I have had time to devote to issues in Parliament and to issues in relation to individual constituents that I would not have had were I also a member of the local authority.

The role of the local councillor has changed so much in that timespan that it is difficult for anybody to give the commitment necessary. The only individuals who could give that level of commitment are those who have personal resources which enable them to employ people to do research, write letters or deal with many of the time-consuming elements of the role as it has developed. Even those of us who have only an Oireachtas role have a demand on resources which is not being met by the Houses of the Oireachtas. There are financial constraints now that there were not three or four years ago. It remains an issue which diminishes the effectiveness of Members on all sides. Opposition spokespersons have a particular reason to feel aggrieved.

Backbench members of Government parties have a role to play in addressing legislation, which could be done more effectively if the resources were available to us. There are many who are not afraid to exercise that role. Due to a lack of resources Members on all sides, and likewise members of local authorities, are frequently constrained because they do not have ready access to material that would benefit them in dealing with their roles.

Deputy Gilmore said, among other things, that the Government promised everything in advance of the last election and was successful on foot of that. I do not blame him because many people now believe that. However, it is at variance with the truth based on my experience in County Clare, where one of the main issues that arose during the general election campaign concerned the Ennis bypass element of the Sligo-Limerick road. The Government indicated clearly in advance of the election that money would not be available for this project. It had an impact on the outcome of the election, but the truth was told and the people made their judgment on foot of it.

It is the only place where the Government told the truth.

The Deputy should not be tempting me because I am aware of other areas in respect of which the parties in Government set out fairly stark realities which were at variance with the promises of some of the other parties.

Deputy Gilmore referred to the role of the community development networks and all others involved in the community sector. He is quite correct to state that their activities, in many respects, undermine the role of local authority members.

That is not quite what I said.

That is true. At a minimum, it points to a role that ought to be adopted by local authorities and which has not been taken traditionally. It is certainly not being taken in the context of the SPCs, where we envisaged it would be taken. I know that is somewhat different and my perspective on the issue is quite different to that of Deputy Gilmore. However, it is one of fundamental importance in terms of the form of local government. It needs to and can be addressed.

The national spatial strategy has the potential to have a huge influence and impact. It is sad that it also has the opposite potential. Much of the evidence suggests that it is not being taken as seriously as it might by local authorities and perhaps some Government Departments. It would be useful to revisit the matter in this Chamber and at the relevant committees. If a strategy, which involved much consideration and has the support of a considerable number of people, is set out at national level, it should be given the support it deserves.

Deputy Gilmore made a point about county loyalty. I am tempted to inform the Minister that, since he will undoubtedly be looking at city and county boundaries close to his home, I would not want him to think that, on foot of this, he might, with impunity, extend boundaries closer to my county. Constituents in Limerick East, who are in the area served by the local authority of County Clare, are adamant that they wish to remain Clare people. While county loyalty may serve as the strongest argument – as well as other issues upon which we had better not touch – there are also good reasons that the integrity of the county to which I refer, and any other county for that matter, ought to be preserved. In doing so, there is undoubtedly an onus on the county authority to service, in an appropriate manner, the residents of the area in question, which is close to Limerick and where there are some deficiencies in services which ought to be addressed.

Let us consider the provision of Traveller accommodation and planning, a significant issue which is causing considerable disquiet in many counties, including my own. I pay tribute to my former colleagues on Clare County Council for the manner in which they have addressed their obligations under the Traveller accommodation requirements and have not left the manager to take the rap. However, the roll-out of the programme is slow and unpopular in some areas for a plethora of reasons, despite the fact that funding has immediately been provided on every occasion it has been sought from the Minister and Minister of State.

Consider planning issues and the role of local authority members in respect of county development plans. Since I left the local authority, I have come to the view that the division of power in the area of planning policy - as opposed to dealing with individual planning applications - and perhaps interpretation, which is central to it, is weighted very heavily against members of the local authority and, by extension, people on the ground.

I welcome the Local Government Bill and I am particularly happy to endorse the proposals to end the dual mandate whereby councillors can also sit in the Houses of the Oireachtas. Given increasing indifference among voters towards the electoral process, I am certain that the provisions ending the dual mandate will contribute greatly to revitalising political engagement. Politics is not the preserve of a small group of people who wish to take over all political fora. It has been noted that the same people seem to be on town councils, county councils and regional authorities. They are attending all conferences and are also Members of the Dáil.

Simply by affording more people the opportunity to be public representatives, the Bill makes a substantial contribution to restoring interest in the political process.

Who wrote that script?

Membership of local councils is, for many, the first opportunity to serve in public life. However, the presence of Oireachtas Members on councils is a major obstacle to that first engagement in politics. Ending the dual mandate is imperative for broadening the political base.

It remains incontrovertible that the number of women involved in representative politics in Ireland is very low by international standards. In many ways women are particularly suited to be local representatives. Their practical approach, natural empathy and affinity for community are all vital characteristics for an effective local representative.

Ireland has a long tradition of good local Government. In 1920, the underground Dáil Éireann, formed by successful Sinn Féin candidates in the 1919 general election, set up a local government Department which assumed the functions of a central authority. The Local Government Board was still active and, nominally at least, in control of affairs. For a time, therefore, two central authorities were competing for the allegiance of local authorities. A majority of the local authorities, however, quickly recognised the new Dáil Department and broke with the Local Government Board.

Based on the most recent census of population, there are almost 1.5 million Irish people under 25 years of age. The country's total population is approximately 3.6 million. Young people under 25 years of age represent 41% of the population, compared to a European average of 25%. Ireland has the youngest population in the European Union. It is often said that that young people are the future of Irish democracy. However, young people should also been seen in the present tense. Approximately 500,000 people under 25 are eligible to vote. The non-participation of young people is the greatest threat and challenge facing our democratic system as it enters the new century. The turnout in elections has steadily declined in recent years to a point where voters are becoming a minority. Recent trends have been quite alarming.

The 1997 general election turnout, at 66.2%, was the lowest since 1923. The 1997 presidential election turnout, at 46.8%, was the lowest ever, as was the 1999 local election turnout, at 50.2%. Evidence suggests that the turnout of voters – particularly young voters – is declining across the world, especially in developed countries. What sets Ireland apart is the turnout of first-time voters. A recently published analysis of electoral participation data in 1999 showed that among the 15 countries analysed, Ireland had the lowest turnout of first-time voters.

Fianna Fáil has tried to make itself more relevant to young people. Two themes that constantly come up as barriers to young people getting involved are voter registration and education. We have acted on calls to improve advertising and media campaigns to provide information and education. Two types of campaign were identified as necessary – educational campaigns to inform people of how the system works and campaigns encouraging people to vote. The Referendum Commission has improved this situation.

Everyone wants to have an impact, yet far too many young people feel they have little opportunity to substantially affect Government policy. However, it is possible to achieve concrete, practical changes on issues ranging from protecting public health to safeguarding consumers, from preserving the environment to establishing meaningful finance reform.

At the heart of our plans for the Ireland of the 21st century is a new, vigorous system of local government based on sound financing, comprehensive modern legislation and integration of the best statutory and voluntary organisations. We have tried to make ourselves more relevant to young people. One of the big challenges ahead for us is the local elections in 2004.

That is no bother to Deputy Kelly.

I am sure this is of great interest to many people here, because unlike previous campaigns, these local elections will provide an unprecedented opportunity for new, young candidates to emerge. Under the Local Government Bill, this separation of local government from the national Legislature is an historic development. It is no exaggeration to state that this is the most momentous change in the nature of local government since the enactment of the present system which was established over a century ago.

The ending of the dual mandate removes a significant barrier to young people's progress in political life. It could not have come at a more appropriate time when we consider the increasing apathy among young people towards political life and the electoral process. The time for change is overdue. It is the electorally-mandated policy of the parties in Government. Deputies are hard working, full-time politicians. There are not enough hours in the day nor days in the week.

Why does the Deputy not retire?

The Deputy should give up the publican's job.

I look forward to doing one job and doing it well. I commend the Bill to the House.

I am amazed to see this Bill before the House. The Minister calls it the Local Government Bill. However, he should have been honest and called it the ending of the dual mandate Bill, because that is all that is in it. The Minister will be aware that the Government and previous Ministers promised we would have directly elected mayors and cathaoirligh of councils. He gave in to the pressure of Fianna Fáil colleagues, particularly councillors who would never be elected if the system of direct election was introduced. It is a perk for them when they have a majority on councils. In some cases they are put in and are not able to function as chairmen. I saw this in the past. It has been an embarrassment to the Minister's party and to the county to have such people in those positions.

It was the view of the Deputy's own party.

I do not have a problem with that. I agree with the Minister. As much as I disagree with and dislike the Green Party, I compliment it on the basis of its honesty. Why do Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Labour Party not make it a rule that if councillors are elected to the Dáil, members are prevented from being both a councillor and a Member of the Oireachtas? There is no need to enshrine this in law. All the political parties have to do is say is that Oireachtas Members have to give up their council seat. Why is it necessary to put it into law?

Last year the Minister introduced Better Local Government.

I did not.

It was the previous Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Noel Dempsey. The officials in my county call it bitter local government because it has created nothing but bitterness. I call it bloated local government because all that has happened is that we have more officials – more jobs for the boys and the girls of the councils. Nobody can deny that we now have a worse service within the local government sector.

So the Deputy favours the Bill.

I would favour it if there was real local government and real change in it. I would support the Bill without difficulty. In fact, I would support the Bill if the Minister concedes that I can put down a question to the Minister for the Environment and Local Government in regard to a constituency problem. If I do so, the Minister will only reply that he has no responsibility for that matter and that is what the county manager will say when we are not part of the local government scene. They will say, "I have no responsibility for you."

I do not see any need for the Bill to come before the Oireachtas. I would like to see real local government reform and changes in the local government system but what has happened is hypocritical. Next week the Protection of the Environment Bill comes before the House. In it the Minister and the Government propose to hand over power in regard to refuse charges to county managers. Is that better local government? Is that giving power back to local representatives?

It will be better for the environment.

It is not. Deputy Gilmore referred to the two powers which were the preserve of local government. I agree with his point and I said it recently at my local council meeting. One of these powers was adopting the rate which has been taken away from us because we do not have any real way of collecting revenues within the local authority. The other power was the adoption of a county development plan, which was the sole function of the elected representatives. Now if the county manager does not like it, he or she will contact an official in the Department of the Environment and Local Government. The Minister will then intervene to change the plan adopted by the council members. It is a scandal. That is not better local government. That is no local government at all.

I believe the Bill is unconstitutional. I got legal advice to that effect and I hope the President will refer the Bill to the Supreme Court. I hope she will call the Council of State together and refer it because of the controversy in regard to it. There is a lot of controversy on all sides of the House. People do not believe that any Minister or any Government has the right to say who can stand for public office, which is what is happening. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government is saying that Deputy Ring, Deputy Kelly or Deputy Gilmore cannot stand in the next council election.

What about me?

Deputy Conor Lenihan will decide that. That is what the Minister is saying. He is saying that one cannot stand for public office. The only people who can make an adjudication on that are the general public. People died for us to have the right to vote. My aunt and uncle were shot in 1921 setting up the police force. As I have said on many previous occasions, if he was a Fianna Fáil member there would be a plaque to him. I have seen plaques to members of Fianna Fáil who were under the bed when the Civil War was taking place. He gave his life for the State and he would turn in his grave if he saw what is happening.

The members of the Garda cannot run for local election either.

They should not do so, because of the job they have.

The Deputy is being selective.

I am not.

That is truly a revealing statement from the Minister.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Ring has the floor.

We have a Minister saying who can stand for public office. The people will decide. It is up to the general public. It is the people's seat. If the people do not want the dual mandate they do not have to vote for the dual mandate candidate. The Minister is saying that neither I nor anybody else can be a Member of the Oireachtas and a member of a county council.

I am giving some leadership.

A Minister with five press officers in his Department and more officials looking after his constituency work paid for by the taxpayers should not lecture me about leadership. I would give up my council seat tomorrow morning if I had his job.

I am sure the Deputy would.

If I had the backup he has, I would have no difficulty giving up my council seat.

Will the Deputy give it up when he goes to Europe?

The hypocrisy of this Bill is that I would not have to. I can stand in the European Parliament election in June 2004 and can stand for the council on the same day. I would not have to give up my council seat until the following election. If I stand to become an MEP, I can stay in the Dáil until the next general election. Is that not hypocrisy?

The European Parliament has decided that a holder of a national parliament seat cannot also hold a European Parliament seat.

The Government got a derogation on that to allow a Deputy to continue to be a Member of the House.

(Interruptions).

Acting Chairman

We cannot have two Deputies speaking at the same time.

How will the Minister deal with another dual mandate affecting Members of this House? I was an auctioneer, but I chose to give up that profession and am now a full-time public representative. Is Deputy Kelly still a publican?

No, but I still take a drink.

There is nothing wrong with that; it is a good thing. How will the Minister deal with the dual mandate within the Cabinet? There are senior Ministers with the backup of the State who have a dual mandate. I am talking about Ministers who are teachers. Substitutes are filling their teaching posts, but the Ministers are taking the pension rights and in some cases are taking part of the salary. Is that a dual mandate and will the Minister deal with it?

Will the Minister deal with the dual mandate within the councils, where some people are members of town and county councils? There are councillors who are on health boards, vocational education committees and regional assemblies. Those are dual or triple mandates. I heard Deputy Kelly speak of a busy life. When meetings are called in my county it is not the Oireachtas Members who cannot attend, but the councillors who are so busy. Some of them have travelled more than Joe Walsh Tours.

I would like to address some remarks to Mr. Liam Kenny of the General Council of County Councils. I paid my contribution to that organisation. I never saw a union throw out one of its members who was not wanted. Although there are 128 Oireachtas Members on local authorities, I was never consulted by the General Council of County Councils to find out my views on the dual mandate. I will deal with the GCCC and I will open a can of worms it will never forget. I will say no more about that today, as I will deal with it in another forum. Mr. Kenny was elected by no one. The Minister has told us this is the view of the chambers of commerce.

It is the view of the Fine Gael Party. Should I read it out?

The Minister can sit down.

What is the view of the Fianna Fáil backbenchers?

The Minister can give us the view of Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats Party. I am giving my view and I am never afraid to do so wherever I am.

Will the Deputy resign from Fine Gael?

I do not have to resign. The Minister should resign. I never jumped ship and I will not do so. The Rings have been in Fine Gael since 1921 and I will stay in Fine Gael. If Fine Gael does not want me, that is too bad.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Will the Deputy go to Europe?

The Minister spoke about Better Local Government. I want to finish with Mr. Liam Kenny and the chambers of commerce. These are all great—

Acting Chairman

The Deputy should not name people from outside the House, who do not have the opportunity to defend their position.

He had enough opportunity to meet the Minister, but he did not tell me about those meetings. I am not going to tell him what I am saying about him today. He can read it, as I had to do by making a request under the Freedom of Information Act. I direct my comments to the General Council of County Councils. He knows about whom I am talking. He was elected by no one. The chambers of commerce do not want dual mandates. They are the dinner jacket outfit of this country and they are also unelected.

The Minister stated that women's groups do not want the dual mandate. I spent three months before the last local election looking for women to stand for the town council and the county council in my constituency. We are still having difficulty getting women into the public domain. I want more women in the Dáil and on councils.

The Deputy should give up his council seat.

The Deputy is a hypocrite and should sit down. He spoke on my local radio station and said he would not take a benchmarking increase. He spoke about the free meals we get and claimed we do not use the facilities of the restaurant in the Houses of the Oireachtas. Every time I go into the restaurant the Deputy is in there. I tabled a parliamentary question last week asking whether any Member of this House did not take the benchmarking increase and discovered the Deputy did take it, which is why he is a hypocrite. I will take that increase. I am not going to listen to the Deputy or the Green Party—

The Deputy wants to keep his Dáil expenses as well as his council expenses.

This hypocrisy does my heart no good. The Deputy already gave his views and should sit down.

The Deputy kept interrupting me last night.

On a point of order, if the Member heckling from behind the speaker wishes to go across to the Government benches and heckle from there—

Acting Chairman

That is not a point of order.

If the Member had a little more experience in this House he would respect the Member in possession.

If the Deputy cannot take the heckling, he should put up or shut up.

I have significant cross-party support for my stance on the dual mandate. I hope I will not have to take a case to the High Court, but I will do so if necessary and my legal team is in place. I will challenge this as a constitutional case. While I hope the President will refer it to the Supreme Court, if she does not I will deal with it. As a democrat, I will obey whatever the Supreme Court decides.

Last night the Minister did not outline the opinion of the Attorney General, which I would like to hear. Deputy Allen asked for that information to be placed in the Oireachtas Library. We should know if the Attorney General believes the Minister has the right to prevent somebody from standing for public office, which is what he is doing.

Does the Minister think it appropriate to take Senators away from their natural constituency? Is it right to tell Senators they may not be members of local authorities when the members of those authorities elect them to the Seanad? That would be like telling the Minister he must stay in Dublin and cannot canvass in Waterford at the next general election. There must be a constitutional case there. Local authority members vote for a Senator, but the Minister will not allow a Senator to be a member of a local authority. How can such a Senator communicate with his constituents?

In the same way as the Deputy communicates with his.

The Minister is well looked after with his five press officers, as stated in the answer to a parliamentary question.

There are three Ministers.

There are five press officers in the Department of the Environment and Local Government, paid for by the taxpayer, who are busy writing out scripts as we speak.

They are tripping over each other.

If the Minister had brought proposals before the House to return real powers to the elected public representatives on county councils, I would have no difficulty with the legislation. I would love if county managers had to stand for election, as is the case in America. Such elections should not take place on the same day as local elections. The people of each county should be given an opportunity to re-elect their county manager or vote for somebody else every seven years. That would be real local government of the kind we want.

What has happened? We now have more officials. The Minister or one of his press officers or officials should start telephoning local authorities to try to reach some of the recently appointed officials. I recently wrote to my county council asking a simple question about a plant operator position which became vacant last year. I have the letter here and will get the exact date in a moment, otherwise the county manager will write to me to complain. It took about seven or eight weeks to get a reply. Having spent at least three months interviewing and testing applicants, how many of the candidates on the council's list were successful? The answer is none. This is a scandal and the Minister and his Department should be dealing with it. They will not do so because all officials are alike.

The main source of income for both former and current county managers and county secretaries is earned through travelling around the country to take part in interview boards. This is the greatest national scandal. I have not heard of cases of the media making freedom of information requests to find out how many trips, including foreign visits, these and former officials make each year. A former county secretary recently told me he made more money in this way than he did when he was county secretary. This issue is never discussed. Who pays for these trips? The money comes out of taxpayer's pockets or county council funds. Is this better local government? It should not happen.

The Fianna Fáil Party's next move will be to elect 66 Deputies and select the remaining 100. We would then see the wealthy, the millionaires of the country who could never get elected, on the opposite side of the House. I warn the Government not to interfere with the democratic system. I call on President McAleese, for whom I have much time because she was elected rather than selected, to convene the Council of State and do the proper thing on behalf the people by referring the proposal on the dual mandate to the Supreme Court to allow it to make the ultimate decision on its legality.

I wish to share time with my friend and colleague, Deputy Glennon. I wish Deputy Ring well in the European elections. He has gone very quiet. I often said I was not born a politician and used to be quite normal.

It must have been before the Deputy moved to Tallaght.

I will talk about Tallaght in a moment. I do not know how the Deputy knows I am from the area. When I moved there with an employer 33 years ago, I got involved in local organisations, including my local school, the scouts and the community council. I was encouraged along the way and had no plans or prospects of becoming a politician. I was a late developer but 12 years ago I was given an opportunity to become a member of the council. Before I became a councillor, I was happy to be a community worker and a normal resident of Tallaght. I found my period as a county councillor very rewarding and enjoyable. As the next election was some way off, I was able to develop in my role and thought I would be happy not to do anything else.

At the last local elections I topped the poll and was appointed Cathaoirleach. I then had a heart attack which gave me time to relax and consider my future. Suddenly, as a result of the decision of my colleague, former Deputy Chris Flood, I found myself being encouraged to stand for the Dáil and here I am. I am sorry Deputy Ring is leaving.

He has had enough.

He does not want to listen to the Deputy.

I had a few things to say to him.

The Deputy should put them on the record.

I will send him a copy of my speech.

Acting Chairman

I ask the Deputy to avoid inviting responses as it does not lead to harmony in the House.

It leads to an interesting debate.

As the Acting Chairman will be aware, I have been a Member of the House for less than a year and still have to learn my trade. The point I was making was that over the past year I had found I was happy to be a Deputy. It has suddenly dawned on me that I do not have to do all the council work and community endeavour I used to do. I no longer need to be a member of the strategic policy committees, area committees or the health board. Some months ago I took the major decision to step down as a member of the South Western Area Health Board, of which I was a founding chairman. People told me I would never leave the health board, yet I did.

I make these remarks in the context of the proposals in the legislation on the dual mandate. While I am sensitive to the role of Members, I am amused by some of the contributions of my colleagues this morning as they ignored or criticised the views of LAMA and the General Council of County Councils. Those of us who subscribe to these organisations should listen to their views which are contrary to those expressed in earlier contributions.

I am annoyed by Members and others outside the Houses who use the media to accuse me and other Deputies of double-jobbing. I get up at 8 a.m. and spend all day working in politics. I do nothing else, yet I am accused by colleagues, some of whom are close, of double-jobbing. This legislation provides an opportunity to bury these accusations. I ask the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Gallagher, to convey my congratulations to the Minister on his bravery in attempting to address the issue of the dual mandate.

The comments of the Labour Party spokesman will come as a major shock to the party's leader in Tallaght who has taken a different view on the right of Members to remain on local authorities. The lecture we heard from the parliamentary Labour Party is completely different from what is being said outside the House. Politics is an amusing business.

Deputy Ring should know that nobody writes my speeches or tells me what to do. I do not have spin doctors or press officers. I do my business by listening to people in Tallaght, Firhouse, Greenhills and Templeogue and representing their opinions in the House, which is what I am doing today.

I am not delighted by the prospect of leaving my local authority. However, the time to do so has come. Speaking on this issue recently, Deputy Kenny stated local politicians should move onwards and upwards. We should all be brave enough to grasp the nettle, which is what I am doing. While I am aware the people of Tallaght will ask me where I have been as they used to see me in the council every other day, time moves on. We have been given an opportunity to do our job in a different way. Some 7,155 people sent me to this House for that reason. Other Members can count their quotas as well as I can. I will do my job as I believe the people want me to do it.

When I was reading this Bill, which I have studied in detail, I was reminded that its passage through the House would close the most rewarding and significant part of my life. Twelve years ago I became a member of the then Dublin County Council. I worked at a time when Tallaght did not have the facilities it now has. At that time, we used to speak of Tallaght as having the population of a city but the status of a village. Thank God that Tallaght is a great place today. I have tried to encourage all Members to visit Tallaght.

That is why I gave up my council seat – I was sick of the place.

There are few people that are sick of Tallaght – it is a great place. Thousands of people come to The Square shopping centre in Tallaght every day while others come to the hospital – I do not suggest the hospital is a tourist resort. There are loads of things to do in Tallaght and I suggest that all Members come to the town. I will even arrange to bring all of them – perhaps the Acting Chairman could help to arrange it.

It is a great town.

I want to show what the coming of a local authority can do for a town. This is what happened in Tallaght.

Change is a simple yet complex word. All around us, in this House, in our work and our daily life we can see change. However, the word can, and does, often lead to illogical responses. I am of an age where change is challenging enough. I am trying to figure out computers and different ways of communications while I am just as happy to sit at my desk and write letters. In my contributions to debates since my election I have, on many occasions, encouraged people to embrace change and face the future with the full benefits of the knowledge and experience they have learned in the past as the foundation on which to ensure our futures are solid. Many Members of this House will have served their political apprenticeship on local or town councils. I followed the path of my predecessors, Deputies Sean Walsh and Chris Flood, in engaging in local public service, a commitment that I believe to be part of the learning curve for every committed and genuinely aware public representative.

To be elected to this House last year was like a graduation – the result of 20 years of community and political commitment. I am a happy Deputy and long may I remain in this House.

Hear, hear.

Given our role in the Dáil, on committees and the general attention necessary on such a wide agenda of issues, as Deputies we are no longer able to fully commit the time and detail which our work on local and town councils needs. Having experienced the demands of both over the last year, I must admit that I found the going tough at times. I live only eight miles from this House. I cannot understand how some colleagues manage—

Does the Deputy not live in his constituency?

I do live in my constituency, it is eight miles from here and I will walk the Deputy there some day if he likes.

Deputy McGrath should not be giving us the benefit of his experience.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy has one minute remaining.

I thought we had 20 minutes.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy is sharing—

We have a private arrangement, if that is in order. Deputy Glennon and I understand each other.

Acting Chairman

Yes, I assume the Deputy is sharing time with Deputy Glennon equally.

No, Deputy Glennon wanted me to speak about Tallaght for a few minutes more.

One has to watch the lads from Tallaght.

I may have to deal with Deputy McGrath on Tuesday. If peace thugs picket my clinics in Tallaght tomorrow I will shout and roar in the House next week.

Acting Chairman

Deputy O'Connor should direct his remarks through the Chair.

The Deputy was doing well when he was talking about Tallaght. Do not mention the war.

If peace thugs intimidate my clients in Tallaght, I will be here on Tuesday.

The anti-war movement is peaceful and democratic.

While some of them are, peace thugs are also involved.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy is off on a tangent and they are dangerous in a debate like this.

I will be here on Tuesday and I will not be easy to deal with.

As with many other Members, I consider the work I did at local level to have been a significant part of the reason I am here today and, like many Members, I will now need to reposition my work and how it relates to my constituents when this Bill is passed. I will rise to that challenge and I hope that Members on all sides of the House choose, on mature reflection, to embrace change and not seek to further undermine our body politic.

On this rare occasion when we, as elected representatives, have the opportunity to create a national role for ourselves, let us not try to use that old pundits soundbite that all politics is local. We should not demonstrate self-interest over the real commitment necessary to bring about the changes that will assist the development of our laws, the accountability of our public service and encourage and protect our citizens. Times have changed both economically and socially. As Members of this House we have to lead that change, shape it and deliver on the aspirations and hard work of all our constituents, young and old.

I would like to make reference to section 3 where the Minister is authorised to provide regulations on the level of access which we as Oireachtas Members can expect after the Bill is passed. While I note the clauses that allow for the required access, I request that the regulations be specific in relation to some parts of council activity. I believe that all town and city councils should be required to have a fully-resourced Oireachtas administration section for Oireachtas Members to access directly. This section should be attached to the office of the manager and its successful operation should be the responsibility of the manager. These offices would act as a clearing house for all our queries and questions on local issues and, in line with the strategic management initiative, they would be among the first to commit themselves to service delivery performance indicators by having to report back to the relevant Oireachtas committee on how they have met their targets.

In addition, these offices would be responsible for the distribution of information such as agendas and minutes of both council and sub-committee meetings. In this electronic age, where all Members have e-mail, there would be no need for mountains of paper or duplication of the work required to provide the existing service for the local councillors.

I support this Bill and congratulate the Minister, Deputy Cullen, on the forthright manner with which he has dealt with the issues involved, in what is and will be seen in the future as the next step in the change and development of the workings of our body politic.

While I do not mean to be flippant, it is often said that turkeys do not vote for Christmas, yet they still make a major contribution to it.

One could have a vegetarian Christmas dinner.

My life is not going to end if I am no longer a council member. Deputy Gogarty's life has not ended now that he is no longer a member of the council.

My replacement has doubled the work.

I will have a good replacement and will not hand pick my successor.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy should address his remarks through the Chair.

I apologise. I do not have a granny in place.

My replacement was selected unanimously.

I told my sons, including Robert, that if they have political ambitions they should do what I did and knock on doors, go to meetings and travel around the constituency. There will be no Charlie O'Connor rubber stamp for anybody in Tallaght to replace me. A Fianna Fáil convention will choose my successor and this is as it should be. My successor will work for a year, hold the seat and add to it in Tallaght next year.

That is what the Green Party did.

I thank you, Acting Chairman, for your courtesy.

I thank Deputy O'Connor for sharing time with me in his inimitable fashion. In response to his concluding comments, if turkeys make a contribution to Christmas then perhaps Deputy Ring's contribution to this debate could be seen to be the cranberry sauce – it has certainly livened it up.

It was even more like the stuffing.

Looking around the Chamber, I think I am probably in a minority of one in that I have not come through the traditional system of local councils.

I did not come through it.

I apologise to the Deputy, no offence was contended, I intended the opposite.

Acting Chairman

It is not necessary to make an interruption, please allow Deputy Glennon to continue without interruption.

It is important that this House has as strong a mix as possible of Members who did not come through the traditional route among those who did. Having said that, I come from a background of service at local authority level, my father and grandfather having both served on what was Dublin County Council. I have been watching this issue with considerable interest and listening to the different sides of the debate. I am somewhat confused by the apparent changes in the stances that have been taken by the different sides.

Deputy O'Connor referred to contradictions in the Labour Party's stance which, unfortunately, Deputy Costello was not present to hear. The principal opposition has been made by Fine Gael and Deputy Ring in particular. However, a policy statement issued by Fine Gael in September 2000, entitled. A Democratic Revolution – A Thorough Overhaul of the Institutions of the State, stated:

Dual mandates for councillors and Oireachtas Members will be prohibited. Sitting Deputies or Senators will not be allowed to seek election to a local authority and sitting councillors will be deemed to have resigned their seat on election to the Dáil or Seanad.

That policy document was presented as a solemn commitment to the people – there was no talk of constitutional difficulties or challenges such as those about which we are now hearing – although all we are hearing is talk, since neither I nor my colleagues are aware of any proceedings having being instituted. It appears that policy has apparently been abandoned, denied and forgotten and yet people wonder why politicians cannot be taken seriously.

On 4 July 2001, Fine Gael tabled an amendment which stated that "a person who is a Member of either House of the Oireachtas shall be disqualified from being elected or co-opted to, or from being a member of, a local authority". I will let those words stand on their own merits without further comment.

Since I became involved in national politics three years ago prior to which I was involved in various community initiatives, I have been hearing about the crying need for honesty in politics. It is not always helpful to a politician to be honest and economy of the truth tends to the rule with politicians in general.

And the Taoiseach in particular.

However, honesty is essential in the eyes of the electorate and this is a good opportunity for all of us in the House to approach the legislation before us with total honesty. I will be honest in saying that I support this Bill but that it will handicap my own re-election. That is not to make excuses in advance – it is a simple fact of life. All politics being local, membership of the local authority is an advantage to Members of the House in terms of their re-election. However, that is as far as it goes, because the dual mandate affects the efficiency of the operation of the Houses of the Oireachtas and representation in committee work, which is becoming more and more a part of the working of this House and which is to be welcomed.

We all know that our chances of re-election will be diminished by the abolition of the dual mandate but, if we look into our hearts and do the right thing rather than engaging in opposition for opposition's sake, we know it is right to support this Bill.

I congratulate the Minister and look forward to the Bill's speedy enactment.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Bill. While the Bill purports to seek to reform local government, it will abolish the dual mandate and change the provision for directly elected mayors and chairpersons of town councils. I have been a member of a local authority for 18 years and in that time I have seen the erosion of the authority of elected representatives. We must move towards a reassertion of the authority of local authority members as the governors of their local areas. Many senior officials see councillors as incidental to, and at times a nuisance in, the exercise of their duties, because they may ask questions which must be responded to. The reserve functions are becoming fewer and fewer and we must have a root and branch examination of how local government has changed and how we can revert to having real power vested in the people through their local elected representatives.

Local government appears to have become an administrator of Government policy and the policy of other bodies such as the NRA, with the authority of councillors removed and ceded to those bodies. Often when queries are raised in this House regarding the responsibilities of bodies such as the NRA or EPA, Ministers claim they are not responsible for them. There has been an erosion of democracy. The functions of these organisations should continue but they should be accountable to the people and the State through their elected representatives.

I was concerned when the Minister decided last year to remove the decision on waste disposal from local authorities. The Protection of the Environment Bill removes the right of local authorities to set refuse charges. Only one local authority that I can recall – I think it was Dublin Corporation – was admonished by the Minister for not setting its rates. There may be difficulties but, surely, that debate should take place within the council as part of the democratic process at work and the council should decide what rates and refuse charges it should apply. I could see some case for it if a raft of councils were not making the final decision on rates. However, that is not the case, so I fail to understand why the Minister has removed that power. This year, Dublin City Council had much open and transparent discussion on rates. People knew where they stood, discussed the matter over a long period of time and finally made a decision, while my local authority watched from afar.

There is worry and concern about incinerators and, if they are to be introduced, the support of the people and their elected representatives is required. We need to be convinced that this is the right way to go, but I am not convinced and I am not being backward or parochial in that. A health board report published in February about incinerators and landfill sites referred to significant implications for people living in the vicinity of incinerators. It was also concerned with the production of food in the same areas. The finding that the State does not have the means of assessing the risk involved is damning for the Government which was irresponsibly prepared to proceed at full speed with the building of incinerators without such capacity being put in place. The obvious conclusion is that all planning on incinerators should stop until the Government has put in place the necessary risk assessment procedures.

The report frightened many who are concerned about incinerators. In my council area there is a 40 acre landfill site with which there have been serious problems during the years. Despite improvements, the problems remain as do concerns about health and food production in the area, and about smells from the site which have caused much difficulty for local people. The site is discussed regularly in my area and at council level.

Removing my involvement and that of my colleagues from that area in order that we are not in a position to exert our views as elected representatives is dangerous. Unelected individuals such as the county manager will make decisions based on a policy handed down from the top reflecting what the Department wants done, without it being necessary to consult the people through their representatives. That is wrong.

The refuse disposal plan for my area stated that if an incinerator was to be built, the county manager would discuss it and get the imprimatur of the council. It did not state a project would not go ahead but that the manager would return to the council to consider it. That protection was removed last year by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government and the county manager has clearly stated that he will not now return to the council to consider the construction of such an incinerator.

If we want real reform of local government, we must consider the areas councils service. There is no doubt that there is a crisis in housing for which in my county some 1,000 people await. Councils, in partnership with the Department of the Environment and Local Government, must look seriously at this issue. There have been helpful innovations such as the voluntary housing schemes which some in my constituency have successfully taken up. The shared ownership scheme should also be further encouraged as it has been quite successful for many.

Improvement works in lieu of social housing, a matter I have raised before, are a good way of bringing houses to a proper standard but it seems to be almost impossible to get it through the Department of the Environment and Local Government because conditions are too restrictive. The improvements scheme could be used in a much better way to repair houses instead of telling people that they will get a new house in ten years.

If real reform is wanted, we must be innovative with regard to shared ownership of housing and other schemes to encourage people. Shared ownership has the advantage of giving occupiers ownership of and responsibility for their houses. I am not saying council tenants do not take responsibility but that when one owns and has a stake in a house, one tends to view it differently. One would not look for the council to come to change the tap or put in a window and so on. Perhaps, 25% ownership would be possible in this regard, though I am just throwing out that figure off the top of my head. Nevertheless, we must be innovative.

There are constant difficulties with roads. I am extremely disappointed with regard to the development of the national primary and secondary routes in my constituency. The people of my area were disappointed again this year to learn that the Adare bypass would not be completed. There is no indication when the work will be done. Adare is the major bottleneck between Newcastle West and Kildare and the bypass would greatly improve the village and surrounding area, one of the main tourist attractions in the mid-west. Removing heavy traffic from the village would be of enormous benefit to its development and the enjoyment of the village by residents and tourists who visit in their hundreds of thousands.

I also draw attention to the N69 between Limerick and Glin, or certainly between Limerick and Foynes. While there is concern about the harbour at Foynes, it has enormous potential for development as has the 200 acre industrial site at Askeaton which has been available for industrial development for a number of years. The one snag is the road from Limerick to the access route for Foynes and Askeaton. This has been referred to during the years and Ministers have made commitments to taking action. The return on investment in this road would be enormous, both in terms of a return to the State and in the creation of jobs in the area. Those who visit agree that the area is close to a key international airport and has a fantastic facility in Foynes Harbour. However, getting to the area by road is the problem. The frustrations of drivers behind an articulated lorry for 15 miles on the road, or visitors coming to invest in the area are understandable.

Deputy Allen referred to a discussion document which the leader of Fine Gael, Deputy Kenny, recently brought forward. It creates many challenges for those of us interested in local government, of which I have been a member for 18 years. If the people did not want me to have a dual mandate, they could have made a decision on my position at the last elections in order that I would not be a local government member. However, the people of the Rathkeale electoral area gave me the highest vote of any Fine Gael candidate in Ireland. That is what they said about my position and the dual mandate. I have a duty to respond to this and continue serving them in that role, as they wish me to do.

There are people – I do not refer here to politicians – who will be happy that the dual mandate will be abolished. I refer, for example, to officials in the Department of the Environment and Local Government. Members of the Oireachtas, who are close to local government, can raise in this House issues of local concern that deserve national attention. If an issue of concern which has been raised in my council is subsequently raised in the House in the presence of the Minister responsible for it, it is natural that I will want to discuss it. Senior local authority officials have said that it is of benefit that Members who are also members of local authorities can raise matters of local concern at Oireachtas level. Fellow councillors have often criticised me and my Oireachtas colleagues and not raising such issues in a sufficiently forceful manner. They are probably right to do so and I respect them for it. I have often heard Fianna Fáil councillors say that we should raise such issues and I respect their right to do so. The opportunity to make such representations will, however, now be removed.

Certain officials will be happy when Members of the Oireachtas are removed from local authorities because it will mean that they will no longer receive queries from the Ministers' offices in relation to parliamentary questions. The Minister, Deputy Cullen, has failed to outline clearly the changed role of Members of the Oireachtas after this Bill has been passed. What forms of communication will be put in place? Regardless of the changes that are made, we will no longer be able to play a key role in council decisions. We will not be able to engage in the normal cut and thrust of political exchange in the council chamber.

Ireland is one of the few democracies in the developed world where local authority functions have been delegated to unelected officials by the national Parliament. More powers should be devolved to local government. If one looks at the state of the health services, one might reflect on the removal of responsibility for health matters from local authorities many years ago. While there was some initial success, I do not think the removal of local involvement in the delivery of health services in local areas was a good development. The delivery of health services should be more locally based. I appreciate that overall management of certain services is necessary, but the more delegation to local authorities, the better.

There is no reason, for example, that traffic policing should not be done by local authorities, as is the case in other countries. Similarly, I do not believe that the policing of the liquor licensing laws cannot be done at local government level. Local police forces could be run by local authorities and the Garda Síochána could be freed to deal with more serious crimes. We saw yesterday that serious crime is almost out of control, but that is a different debate. We should examine seriously the possibility of giving space to the Garda to deal with violent crimes such as murder and rape. Other necessary duties such as policing speeding offences could be performed by local police forces.

It is a shame that the Government has decided to abolish the direct election of mayors and local authority chairpersons, presumably against the wishes of Deputy Noel Dempsey. The provision could have served as a means of giving direct access to power to the people, by allowing them to decide who they wanted as mayor. The winner of a direct election could have played a marvellous role and could have enjoyed the authority of having been elected by the people to represent them. He or she would have had a mandate from the people to talk to the county manager, in line with the council.

With the agreement of the House, I wish to share time with Deputy Nolan. I appreciate that this is unlikely to happen today, as the debate is about to conclude, but I can do so when the debate resumes next week.

The Deputy is sharing with Deputy Nolan.

I welcome this opportunity to speak on the Local Government Bill 2003. When Members on this side of the House speak, they are often asked who wrote their scripts, alleged to be taking the advice of spin doctors, or accused of following the party line. I have not yet found those who write the scripts; if I had done so, I would hardly be reading from handwritten notes. The scriptwriters have not yet found the newer Members of the House.

I can give the Deputy the names of some of his backbench colleagues who will tell him where to find the scriptwriters.

We will find out who they are shortly, but they are obviously not the people I meet in the corridors.

I listened earlier to the contribution of Deputy Ring, who made a typically colourful and enthusiastic speech. He referred to the view his ancestors might have of the proposal to discontinue the dual mandate and said that, regardless of Fine Gael's policy in respect of this matter, he would stay in that party and fight to the end. I am glad the Deputy is not here because, if he was, I would draw a response from him. It is worth noting, on a serious level, that Deputy Ring made clear a number of weeks ago that he is dissatisfied with the proposed abolition of the dual mandate and that he feels that a constitutional question needs to be addressed. He said that he is prepared to organise a legal challenge to the provision if it is not referred to the courts by the President. A number of Members from this side of the House, who said they felt that members of Fianna Fáil would support Deputy Ring's legal challenge, received a great deal of media coverage some weeks ago.

During his colourful contribution, Deputy Ring said "I have significant cross-party support for my stance on the dual mandate". He received extensive coverage for his initial campaign in regard to this matter, which involved contacting all Members of the Oireachtas, including me, to request financial support for his legal challenge. He sent a letter to all Members from all parties and promised that those who supported him would not be identified. I challenge Deputy Ring to think about this matter over the weekend, before I resume my contribution next week, and to come to the House to outline the response he received from Members on this side of the House. He received a great deal of publicity and media interest when he made his initial request. Now that his letters have been received by every Member of the Oireachtas, can Deputy Ring clarify whether Members of either House have indicated that they will support him? This matter needs to be clarified as a number of people gained considerable publicity by trying to show disunity.

Given that the proposal to abolish the dual mandate has been discussed at length by my party, I would regard as disloyal any Fianna Fáil Member who is supporting Deputy Ring. There is an onus on the Deputy, following his comment that he has received "cross-party support", to come forward and say how many Members, if any, from this side of the House have given him financial support, as he specifically requested them to do. I hope to have the opportunity to take up this point when I resume my Second Stage contribution next week.

I appreciate that many Members have grave concerns about the abolition of the dual mandate. Most Members of the Oireachtas recognise the political and electoral advantages of retaining the dual mandate. Deputy O'Connor mentioned that the abolition can be compared to turkeys voting for Christmas. I must admit that when I came to this debate initially I was of that view. I recognise the importance of my role on the local authority and where my constituency queries are best addressed. I felt uncomfortable. Since then, there has been much debate on the matter and the Minister has addressed reasonably and practically some of our specific concerns, as Members of the Oireachtas, about gaining information from local authorities.

Debate adjourned.
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