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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 4 Apr 2003

Vol. 564 No. 4

Digital Hub Development Agency Bill 2002 [ Seanad ] : Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

When the debate on this Bill was last under way a month ago, I illustrated the impact of education, particularly in mathematics and science, on subsequent innovation capacity and research and development in the information technology sector. I referred to a number of commissioned reports which indicated that, in common with quite a few other countries, Ireland had a declining rate of participation in higher level mathematics and science subjects at second level. This impacts negatively on participation in certain courses at third level and, ultimately, the capacity of third level institutions to undertake research projects in these areas. The €700 million for research and development provided under the national development plan has been fully subscribed but one must wonder if the amount is sufficient and ask how it is directed. More importantly, in the context of the current debate, what is the involvement of industry in the research and development permitted by the funding? A core issue is monitoring.

At Plassey Technological Park, Limerick, new ground is being broken by a facility which illustrates the value of co-operation by the University of Limerick, Shannon Development and industry and the level of innovation it makes possible. I hope the hub project will have a similar role. One of the measures of its success will be its ability to expand beyond its site and its capacity to reach out to distant communities and affect their involvement in information technology. It has that potential and I hope it will be realised. The real test will be the extent to which it helps to kick-start and support information technology initiatives in other parts of the country. I do not doubt that it will be successful in attracting the key players to the campus and other central locations while supporting those players already involved in industry here. What will be really interesting and challenging is its impact on the furthest regions of the country.

We were very fortunate in County Clare – Ennis, in particular – to be chosen as the location of the Telecom Éireann information age town project. It has had a tremendous impact in terms of the level of personal computer penetration and the training made available to a population of 20,000 people in a very confined area. Some have expressed disappointment that the long-term impact has not been greater but many forget that almost 200 jobs have been created and nurtured by the "industry Ennis project" which followed the information age town project. Those involved continue to work closely with the Shannon Free Airport Development Company and the Industrial Development Agency. Plans are at a very advanced stage to create a new technology park in Ennis, though it could be said it might have been better to make the park available while the original project was still under way. Nevertheless, it demonstrates the impact which can result from beginnings such as those outlined in the Bill.

An interesting report, sponsored by Rural Resource Development Limited, was launched in County Clare in February. It evaluates information technology resources in the county, though it excludes the Ennis area because of the huge impact of the information age town project. Various surveys were conducted with community groups and other interests and recommendations made. Questionnaires were issued to 114 primary schools and returned by 89, which represents a very high response level. Of the 14 secondary schools to which questionnaires were sent, 12 responded while 63 parishes completed and returned their sheets which included references to the impact of IT on 91 community groups. The report concludes that there is some access to resources throughout the county in communities and parishes with a population of less than 750 but a strong need for support and assistance to develop an information and communications technology project. Overall, 65% of communities and parishes have no access to ICT resources at a community level. Without support, these communities and parishes will continue to lag behind, a matter the report strongly recommends should be addressed.

It is apparent from the surveys carried out that the telecommunications services available in County Clare are insufficient and that there is a clear demand for increased bandwidth and improved infrastructure. If the issue is not addressed as a matter of urgency, the report claims the digital divide, already very apparent, will continue to widen. It points out that initiatives at community and parish level should be aimed at addressing the lack of broadband through the implementation of satellite, WLL and other methods. Such initiatives should be encouraged and supported and best practice examples disseminated. It also addresses the need for information and communications technology training. When we think about training, we sometimes think of training at the basic level reflected in the achievements of a great many Members of this House. We can turn on the computer, access email and perform some other basic functions.

The Deputy can speak for himself.

I realise that the Minister of State is far more efficient than normal Members. There are also challenges in increasing the training available for those who work or have worked in ICT. Ultimately, the challenge is to present at the highest possible level which will have an enormous impact on the project and its capacity to address the future needs of the country.

Digital content has been a key growth area over the last ten years and we face the challenge of moving up the technological value chain. While €2.47 billion was provided in the national development plan for research and development, it is clear that we need to continue to have a greater impact. We also face the challenge of creating critical mass in the hub area and the country in general to ensure benefits continue to flow.

Among the expected benefits is that the digital hub will play a key role in the promotion of Ireland as a premium location from which to distribute digital content products digitally. We have been close to performing in this area but have never quite reached our potential. The hub will provide a highly visible presence for Ireland in the international digital industrial community. We can sometimes overlook the importance of the ability of the country to have an impact at that level. Despite its wide dispersal, the international IT community tends to operate within quite a closed circle. We need to be in that circle. We must build on our strong existing technology base, which sounds easy but is, in fact, a huge challenge. In many respects, it is not the base that offers hope for the future. It is the base that needs to be upgraded to make it relevant in the future. There is a challenge to train future generations of students in the digital media area and education has an important part to play.

There has been considerable progress in several key areas relating to IT access. The co-investment of €200 million in a regional broadband programme has made an impact and made it possible for people living in rural areas to participate in a meaningful way in the industry. The international connectivity cost €77 million or thereabouts and has made a considerable impact on the country's competitiveness. The DSL prices have already been halved and a flat rate access charge will be introduced in June. We need to have the minimum of constraints in such a competitive environment. There have been pilot projects conducted on wireless local area networks. This is one of the areas which offers hope for the peripheral communities in particular but I understand that its costs are close to prohibitive at present.

The challenge to the agency is to move us forward from a position of relative strength with a certain level of availability of broadband and ISDN to a situation where any area of the country will have the capacity, at worst, to compete on an even plain with the main competitors, but at best, to compete with those at the forefront.

I welcome the Bill to set up Digital Media Development on a statutory basis. To date a considerable amount of money has been invested in this project so I hope there will be measurable returns on that investment.

I wish to declare an interest in this Bill because the digital hub is based in my constituency, Dublin South-Central and I have a particular concern about how it will impact on the lives of the people in the area and the associated developments on their behalf.

I was pleased to note earlier this week that a number of new companies have moved in and hopefully will be up and running in the near future. It is particularly important that these developments contribute in a positive way to the local infrastructure and to the quality of the lives of the people who have lived in that historic part of the city through the lean times. I hope they will be given every chance to avail of the opportunities offered by these developments.

I remind the House that the IFSC started out as a positive development in terms of economics and commerce but unfortunately lost its soul along the way to the detriment of the people and of the neighbourhood. We must be ensure that the quality of life of the people who live and work in the area is not put at risk by technological developments.

Other Members have noted that the Liberties is one of the oldest and most historic districts in the city of Dublin with its own unique culture and architecture. Any developments that take place in the area must foster that culture and allow it to merge with the new developments in such a way that the needs of the people are not sacrificed to the economic viability of the project.

The Liberties is also one of the most disadvantaged areas in the city. My colleagues, Deputies Ardagh and Eoin Ryan, spoke on this Bill and they both referred to the long-standing chronic problems in this part of the city. The positive development of the digital hub will improve the situation for the people of the area which has suffered from a drugs problem for many years. Social problems must also be taken into account as well as the economic viability of the project. The area is burdened with much social inequality and has been generous in making room for a wide range of social services, supports and facilities. I do not believe that the generosity of the local people has been acknowledged in terms of a corresponding input by way of community development. I wish to emphasise the importance of ensuring that a commitment and balance is brought into play.

It is necessary to have high quality, affordable housing in the area. We must not allow a situation to develop where the price of housing is allowed escalate to the point where the local people could not afford to buy. In the case of the /FSC, a two-tier society has evolved on account of the economic viability and development on behalf of certain groups has left others behind in the race.

The Taoiseach has stated that he would like to see the property aspects of the development of the area will be delivered efficiently and quickly and I seek an assurance that some action will be taken to ensure that happens.

Deputy Killeen referred to education and educational opportunities in the area. There are a number of primary and secondary schools located around the digital hub area. It is only fair to acknowledge that they have benefited from the investment and the developments in the area. Many successful projects have been co-ordinated with the digital hub and the schools. I ask the Department of Education and Science to provide a corresponding commitment and ensure an upgrading of facilities in a disadvantaged area because there are significant development requirements in those schools. In recent weeks, RTE has been showing programmes on television about the developments between local schools and the digital hub. The schools would be the first to acknowledge that the teachers, pupils and community have benefited.

It was hoped that the RAPID programme would provide significant advantages and benefits to the area. It now appears that the hoped-for interaction between RAPID and the digital hub has not materialised. The projects which were supposed to be introduced under the RAPID programme are already up and running under some other banner. It is a great shame that RAPID appears to be just a recycling of older projects.

The area has suffered from chronic unemployment and there has been poor educational attainment. The emphasis should be on education and educational facilities at every level as well as retraining and upskilling so that the people of the area can avail of the jobs which we hope will become available. It is hoped that they will be high calibre jobs and that appropriate training will ensure that people will be able to access those positions. There is little point having jobs available if the training and back-up required is not available in parallel.

Computers and Internet access are something many of us now take for granted. This is a golden opportunity to provide access to many people who would not be able to afford computers. As many flats complexes in the area are being refurbished, it is an opportune time to ensure that these flats or houses have access to computer technology and the Internet. It is something that should be taken for granted at this stage. It is no longer a luxury, it is part of life. Computer and Internet access should be made available as a matter of course to the remainder of the flats complexes which are being upgraded.

While the information age has been very important to all of us, the introduction of broadband access has been very slow. I welcome some of the recent developments, including the flagship project in the Liberties. It is great for the constituency and for the area in Dublin where this is happening. However, it is not sufficient that it is located in just one area. We must now seek the evolution of what is happening in the digital hub. I hope there will be parallel developments throughout the country to ensure everyone has access to information technology. It is important that development in this area is fast-forwarded from the point of view of competition and attracting industry into the country. We cannot afford to sit back and wait because many of our counterparts in other European countries are way ahead of us in this area.

I emphasise the need for education and educational development in the whole IT area. The skills shortage task forces set up have been looking at areas which can be developed, particularly in science and technology. It is widely acknowledged that the need for investment in science and technology is enormous, even though there has been considerable improvements recently, which must continue. The areas that are falling behind are the sciences. It is crucial in regard to information technology that both our second and third level colleges have the best facilities available and are able to produce the best quality graduates to attract the appropriate industries to this country.

I welcome the Bill and look forward to successful progress on the digital hub.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Mulcahy.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Like other speakers, I welcome the opportunity to make a short contribution to this debate. The Digital Hub Development Agency Bill, which has been around for six or 12 months, is just now reaching this House, having been passed by the Seanad. The Bill will have enormous consequences as far as the whole technology industry is concerned in the future. We have been European and world leaders in the technology industry for a number of years. We know that from the number of major technology companies which found that this was a suitable country in which to base their operations. If we are to continue to be world leaders, however, we must develop our research and development facilities. The provision of a digital hub centre and a digital hub organisation, with responsibility for the development of the technology industry, will make a major contribution to ensuring that we continue to be world leaders.

The pioneers in this area were Enterprise Ireland and the IDA Ireland which managed to persuade many of the world leaders in technology to come to this country to set up their European and world headquarters. We must move forward from that. The selection of a location like the Coombe-Liberties in Dublin shows that the Government is committed to dealing with disadvantaged areas. To put a major flagship project like the digital hub into this area will give a signal to other communities throughout the country that they will not be left behind when it comes to development.

We must also look at the educational value because the educational value of technology will be more and more important as time goes on. We know many schools are now finding that technology education is becoming a bigger part of their programme of work. They are finding also that students can adapt much better if they are brought into the technology age as early as possible. Some have the advantage of having computers at home. Seven or eight year olds are more computer literate than many middle aged people. However, some people do not have computers in the home and the education system will now give them an opportunity to progress themselves in the area of technology development.

In regard to the overall project, the fact that the agency is located in Dublin poses a further question whether smaller centres should be established throughout the country to develop the technology industry. I say this in light of some of the recent decisions by the Minister in regard to broadband. I express my sincere thanks to him for acceding to my request to provide broadband to both Carrick-on-Shannon and Manorhamilton. This was an important development for both towns, in probably one of the most peripheral areas of the country. It gives a clear indication that as far as Government policy is concerned the idea of a nationally based and broadly based technology industry is totally within the grasp of these communities. This is something people living in the area very much appreciate. It is nothing more than people deserve. We have a duty to ensure the spread of industry throughout the country, whether high tech or otherwise.

People talk about rural development and so on, but if the services are not in place, we will not be in a position to attract people to rural Ireland. The roll-out of broadband will help to encourage that. I want at this stage to say a special word of thanks to the members of Leitrim County Council who saw fit to provide the local contribution necessary to ensure broadband would be provided in the area.

The Bill will enable the agency to purchase property and incur expenditure subject to Department of Finance sanction. While there may be a need for belt-tightening, I hope investment in technology will not be curtailed due to lack of finance. If we hinder development in the technology industry which has taken place over a number of years, we will find that countries throughout the world who envy us will pass us out in the area of technology and technology development.

I welcome the Bill, including the way in which the entire technology industry is being developed. However, we must allow the situation to arise whereby the success we had in the 1990s will be overtaken by other countries. This House has a duty to provide the necessary resources to ensure that the digital hub is fully developed throughout the country. The necessary funding should also be made available for research and development for the technology industry.

I thank Deputy Ellis for sharing his time. I also welcome the Bill. I must declare an interest to the extent that the digital hub is in a constituency I represent. I hope my remarks are not coloured by that. I know the area well since 1985, if not before. I was first elected to represent it on Dublin Corporation in 1985, re-elected in 1991 and elected to the Dáil in the last general election.

It is beyond dispute that the hub is located in an area of considerable social disadvantage, which is not to deny that there are many other areas of social disadvantage throughout the country. Over the past years, Combat Poverty has produced statistics which show that the south west part of Dublin and the south inner city are among the most disadvantaged areas of the country.

The Bill is important because it will put the new digital hub development agency on a statutory footing. Digital Development Media Limited has been in operation for a number of years. I pay tribute to those who have supported this project, including the Government and a prime mover and thinker behind it, Mr. Paul Kavanagh. I also wish to express my appreciation to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, which had the vision and the foresight to enter a partnership with the Government to develop this very important digital hub in the Liberties.

If Ireland has an economic future, which I believe it does, it will be because of its success at what may be termed the top of the food chain. As other economies may be able to mass produce goods more cheaply, Ireland must concentrate on education, IT and intellectual property. The Irish have a gift for learning, thinking, words and the arts, especially literature and music. It will be good for the country if we can harness our creativity with the most modern digital technology.

Although the Liberties, the area in which the hub is located, is socially disadvantaged, it is one of the most famous industrial areas of the country. The name "Dublin" is derived from Dubh Linn, the black pool, and it is believed that the Vikings landed not far from the location of the hub. The Huguenots migrated there from France. The word "tenterhooks" is derived from the tenters they used to weave on which to hang their silk. Winetavern Street and Cook Street are historical streets which indicate the range of trades in the area, including candle-making and weaving. The Guinness brewery is also located in the area and I am pleased that the MIT Media Lab Europe headquarters are situated in the Guinness Hop Store. It is exciting that the top end of technology will replace these traditional craft industries, many of which have been in decline.

The Bill provides that the agency's remit will include a development plan which must have regard to Dublin City Council's integrated area plan for the Liberties and the Coombe area and Dublin city's development plan. The agency must also consult with relevant Departments and agencies, including Enterprise Ireland. The city council, acting in conjunction with the Liberties and the Coombe area integrated plan, has been very ambitious for the rejuvenation of the entire Liberties area.

I share the concern of others that the benefits of the hub will be spread to all the housing estates and flat complexes in the area and to all the schools. I do not wish to be pessimistic on this aspect because there are already good signs. The Minister will be aware of the Liberties learning initiative, which I am told involves approximately 160 local and voluntary groups kindly sponsored by Diageo, the parent company of Guinness Ireland, for €1.3 million. Programmes are also running in 15 local schools.

The Minister will also be aware that next Thursday, the Taoiseach will launch the Hewlett Packard digital community project. This involves nine flat complexes being fully fitted with state of the art computers and specially adapted computer rooms. This is an exciting development and I pay tribute to companies, such as Hewlett Packard and Diageo, for making private finance available to spread e-learning to the flat complexes. There is a great aptitude for learning and commerce in the Liberties and I have no doubt that the enthusiasm and enterprising spirit of the digital hub will spread throughout the area. I echo Deputies from rural areas in that I see no reason why there should not be spin-offs from the hub to other parts of the country.

The concept of quarters, under revival in Dublin, may spread to other parts of the country. In the old days there was the silk quarter, the tradesmen's quarter, the legal quarter, etc. That is re-emerging in the form of the IFSC, the financial quarter and the digital hub, the computer quarter. The Taoiseach is now talking of a legal quarter to be based in the north inner city in Deputy Costello's constituency. Why not develop fashion, crafts, motor and ecology quarters?

There can only be four quarters.

We can hang, draw and quarter, if necessary. The concentration of industries or centres of learning in specialist areas is an excellent idea. It goes back to medieval times when cities were divided into quarters dominated by the various guilds.

I understand that under the national envelopment plan, €2.4 billion has been allocated to research and development in the computer sector. Approximately 80% of the population have mobile telephones but there has not been the same take-up in computers.

I do not blame the Government, but I am disappointed that broadband and Internet access has not penetrated quickly enough. Ireland now lags behind several other European countries. The day must arrive when, as with telephone points, every home in the country has a computer terminal and free Internet access. In the United States, local telephone calls are free and Internet access is all but free. We must wake up to the 21st century and get a computer into every house with free Internet access. Otherwise, we will not remain at the forefront of computer technology.

Ireland has some of the greatest indigenous computer companies in the world, which were spawned from the computer boom of recent years. They include Parthus, Iona Technologies and Riverdeep. The large multinational companies located here include Intel, Hewlett Packard and Microsoft. There is a need to take this huge grounding in the computer industry to the next level. In addition to the digital hub, we need to get the vast majority of people using computers so that they can be purchasers of computer and Internet-related products. That is the way forward. I am unhappy that free Internet access has not become a reality in the average household.

Recently we had a presentation on the roll-out of broadband and I understand significant progress is being made. In the same way as every house has a telephone I look forward to the day when every household has a computer terminal in the kitchen or the living room. If people have access to information they are empowered, and that would be to our advantage.

I compliment all involved in the drafting of the Bill and wish all involved in the digital hub the best for the future. Ahead of schedule, there are six companies operating with about 100 employees on a temporary basis. The total area will be seven acres, comprising 500,000 square feet, 50% enterprise, 25% residential, 16% retail and the balance educational/e-learning. I understand there will be approximately 2,000 to 3,000 employees in the sector in the area. This is a huge boost for the Liberties and for the fantastic constituency of Dublin South Central which is well served, I hope, by its representative. I commend the Bill to the House.

I wish to share time with Deputies Harkin and Eamon Ryan.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Like other speakers I welcome the legislation before the House. As I stated earlier this week in relation to the Broadcasting (Major Events Television Coverage) (Amendment) Bill, it is a shame it has taken so long to get to this point. It is to be hoped that the passing of this legislation will be a major shot in the arm in moving this project forward.

It has the potential to make a huge difference to the Liberties and Coombe areas of Dublin. However the Bill is only a first step. It means that the Government must commit itself to at least a generation of funding and investment to create a level playing pitch for local residents and their communities to be able to play a proper part in the job creation strategy that "new economy" technology offers today. We must also look at the wider picture and in this regard the Government and the previous coalition have been sending mixed messages to not just the public, but the whole information and telecommunications sector.

From the last Government we got, in the e-commerce Bill, most progressive and far-seeing legislation that would encourage Irish and international business to choose Ireland as an e-commerce location. We have had God knows how many photo opportunities at the national digital park and launches, too numerous to mention, around the Global Crossing contract.

However the same Government not only botched the sale of Eircom but left the roll-out of new broadband fibre optic networks on the long finger, content instead to pocket the money from the Eircom sale with little thought of developing a proper telecommunications infrastructure for the island. Now Global Crossing is in receivership. I note there were little or no photo opportunities for this media event.

In recent years telecommunication companies have reneged on commitments to roll out new cable networks. NTL bought up Cablelink from State ownership and its promise of high speed digital networks for all its customers has gone the same way as many Fianna Fáil election promises.

It is only now that Eircom is finally offering high speed ADSL Internet access years too late. It is only a stopgap measure and will not lead to the mass broadband access we urgently need.

During the 1980s and 1990s there was massive investment in the technology infrastructure of the State and it was carried out by what is now Eircom. The State took the risks and put in the work to build the foundation for the technology society. It is now private operators who will profit from it. This investment was based on the principle of universal provision. The Government sold off Eircom and in doing so put short-term greed before the long-term gain of the people.

The digital hub in the Liberties should be only a small piece of a much larger jigsaw. We need to ensure that existing telecommunications networks, not just in this State but throughout the island, are developed and improved and that the new high-speed fibre optic networks are constructed under the principle of universal provision.

It is vital that all the island's towns and regions, whether in isolated rural areas or neglected urban communities, have access to this new technology that is the basic building block of the knowledge economy. The Government could make a start with those areas identified under the RAPID proposals. I heard the Minister on the radio this morning trying to defend the indefensible. The reality is that nothing has happened since this programme has been launched.

The reticence of the private sector to invest in these services without State support or "partnership" shows clearly how vital it is to have public ownership of these utilities and exposes as a lie the often made statement that the private sector brings dynamism to the economy. We need to commit ourselves to an enhanced cable infrastructure throughout the State, enabling the deployment of new technologies to all communities and especially to schools.

This brings us back to the digital hub in the Liberties. The educational aspect of the agency is vital. Education more than any other factor has the most power in our society today to transform poverty to wealth, to change unemployment to wage earning and to create a dignified standard of living for all.

One could be forgiven in recent years for the obsession in Government and media around the term digital. We have had digital parks, digital phones and a host of other developments, but what we do not often hear about is the digital divide. It is this divide that this Bill in a small, but welcome, way attempts to tackle. We have heard much from this Government about the success of the Celtic tiger and the job creation record etc. What we need to do now is not to focus on the strategies of the past but to ask ourselves where the next decade of new jobs will come from. I think the answer lies in the knowledge economy, and in this economy what matters is access to resources and infrastructure. Our economy is at a cross roads in this matter.

Some 20% of secondary school students are leaving without formal qualifications. Some 24% of adults, according to the UN and the OECD, are functionally illiterate and cannot read the back of a bottle of cough mixture. There are 1.1 million people on the island who are education poor and digital hubs will be meaningless to them unless we have an innovative strategy on education and investment.

Surveys from the Information Society Commission have shown clearly that the early adopters of these new technologies all come from the wealthier social groups who, armed with third level qualifications, can maximise the benefits of this new economy while those without education are being left further and further behind. This must not be accepted at any level. We should not accept the creation of an underclass, which has already happened in many parts of Dublin and in other parts of the State. We need to take the glimmer of imagination and innovation in this Bill and spread it throughout the whole island.

Every town in Ireland should have a digital hub with broadband access, with computer labs in every school, PCs in every home and not merely an educational curriculum teaching IT but teaching the curriculum through IT. Every business should have high speed Internet access. Then we can begin to approach the critical mass to build a knowledge economy on the island and make not just the Liberties but also the island of Ireland a digital hub.

This Bill is very positive for Dublin and no doubt it will contribute to the development and growth of the city. Is this what we want? Do we really want Dublin to grow? What about balanced regional development? What about investment in digital infrastructure throughout the region and, in particular, from my perspective in the west and north-west? Why could this Bill not take into consideration the development of digital infrastructure in the regions and appoint an authority that is competent to deliver it. Why do the regions not deserve an agency that, according to the Bill, would promote and facilitate the development of telecommunications to attract enterprises to the digital hub?

I was impressed by section 10 of the Bill which states: "As soon as may be, but not later than 6 months after the adoption of the development plan . . . the Agency shall prepare and submit to the Minister . . . business and financial plans or any revisions of those plans." The Government means business. Even in times of cutbacks, it makes such priorities. How can it possibly hope to promote balanced regional development or implement the national spatial strategy, launched and trumpeted about two months ago, unless it affords the same priority to the knowledge based industry in the regions, the west and north-west in particular?

I am not just expressing my own views. Surely the words of Sean Dorgan, chief executive of the IDA, must be taken into account:

IDA remains fully committed to the regional development agenda but we have some serious concerns at the lack of timely delivery of key pieces of essential infrastructure in Objective One regions, especially telecommunications and access. We urge priority attention to these matters.

Sean Dorgan is asking for priority attention for the BMW region but the Government is currently giving it to Dublin.

Yesterday the strategic rail review was presented. Others and I had hoped it would in some way help to rebalance the infrastructural deficit between east and west that has grown over the past ten to 15 years. The NRA has, year after year, spent a much greater proportion in the south and east than in the BMW region. At the end of 2001 the spend in the south and east was 45% ahead of target and 25% behind in the BMW region. The knock-on effect is that projects which were started must be completed. It is like a snowball gathering momentum until there is an avalanche and we, in the west, are buried underneath it.

We must ask if it is essential that the digital hub is sited in Dublin. The information industry is fully mobile. However, has any consideration been given to the fact that it could be sited elsewhere and a driver for balanced regional development? Yesterday I read that a former Member of this House, Liam Lawlor, said it took himself and the Taoiseach to sort out the country and western boys. According to Mr. Lawlor, the western lobby was getting everything and the east was suffering. The grand coalition between Liam Lawlor and the Taoiseach has obviously been one of the most successful in the State because it is very clear that their philosophy still drives policy in Leinster House today. Liam Lawlor may be gone but he has left his mark in more ways than one.

In December 2002 the Western Development Commission issued a report which made the following recommendation, among others:

Many parts of the Western Region do not have access to broadband services. In a knowledge-based economy, quality broadband infrastructure is a necessity, and without it growth and competitiveness will be constrained.

I suggest that broadband access is an absolute necessity and growth and competitiveness will be virtually impossible. The report also states: "Telecommunications infrastructure policy for the Western Region should be based on an acceptance that infrastructure there must be at least on a par with other regions". A few moments ago Deputy Ellis told us that the fact that a deprived area of Dublin was being developed was surely a sign that deprived areas in the rest of the country could expect similar developments. Despite what he said, when we looked at the Estimates before Christmas we saw that there was a 27% cut in funding for the roll-out of broadband to the regions. Towns like Sligo, which has been named as a gateway in the national spatial strategy, are not even in phase one. Deputy Ellis said it would take place down the road but it is more a case of it being somewhere over the rainbow.

I ask for parity of access, infrastructure and investment. Yesterday, with the issuing of the strategic rail review, we were presented with what I would describe as pale rail. Today we have been given the digital divide.

We have a very difficult job here today, as legislators, because we need to legislate for innovation, creativity and enterprise. It is difficult to establish the required conditions on a statutory basis.

I am a supporter of the digital hub project and always have been. I have to hold up my hand and say that I, with members of the Government, was attracted by the possibilities of the project. I cheered the Taoiseach on as he started spending our money on this good idea. Two or three years later the project has almost become symbolic of what has changed in the economy. I do not think we would possibly spend £73 million today on the property we obtained, nor do I think we would be as flaithiúlach with the administrative expenses on the project which serves as a metaphor for the way in which we mismanaged and blew our money in recent years. We spent a huge amount and, to date, there has been very little return.

We are in a period of change. The legislation allows us to recognise our changing circumstances and try replot a new way forward. I am critical of the fact that to date the project has centred around administration, plans and proposals as opposed to enterprise. It is now very difficult for us to establish such enterprise on a statutory basis, although it is what we need to do. This Bill does not achieve it. It states more about superannuation schemes and the disclosure of interests than about how we create an innovative centre.

I have some suggestions as to how to aid the agency in terms of enterprise and innovation which I will introduce as amendments on Committee Stage, if possible. I am disappointed that the Bill contains no real reference to MediaLab Europe, one of the main anchor tennants for the digital hub. One of the criticisms of the enterprise of the digital hub to date is the failure of MediaLab Europe to connect in with the rest of the city. It is slightly like a monastic site looking within or across the Atlantic via its digital connection but not looking around itself or attracting Irish entrepreneurs or small Irish companies in sufficient numbers. It recognises that a model that applies to the MIT in Massachusetts, where a small company is one with a staff of 500 or 600, has to be changed in the case of the Irish economy, where a small company can consist of two or three friends working in the back of a garage. The Bill should serve as an opportunity to reassess how MediaLab Europe is working and connects into Irish businesses and institutions, particularly educational institutions. I am disappointed that there is no reference to this in the Bill.

Ultimately, when talking about the digital hub, we have to consider how we help our entrepreneurs and business people, the innovators who will create the jobs and provide the resources. It is difficult because, under European competition rules, we cannot provide any of the tax incentives or grants systems we would have used in the past. We are left with very few tools.

Looking at the explanatory memorandum to the Bill, it is remarkable to realise that we spent twice as much in 2001 and 2002 on administration of the project than we did on actual broadband infrastructure. Money was blown on consultants, coffee mornings, cheese and wine receptions and lovely, glossy reports but very little was spent on the infrastructure that would be of some use to the businesses we are trying to attract. It is important that we change that focus.

As Deputy Upton said, it is important that we also have a strong connection to local people and the local area. I lived in the area in question for five years. It is a very sensitive area and one of the few urban areas in Dublin that really works as such. I love walking down Meath Street which is packed with pedestrians and going into Jack Roche's greengrocery where everybody talks to each other – this does not happen in other parts of Dublin. I love walking into Frawley's on Thomas Street and Manning's for a cup of coffee afterwards. It is a vibrant area in which people live and shop and to which people go from all over the city because it is so attractive. We must be careful how we look after and develop it. We do not want to make the same mistakes we made in Temple Bar where we killed the ethos. We need to link up with local people through primary and secondary schools.

I would like to see the functions of the agency broadened. It is incredible that there is not one mention of the word "education" in the description of the functions of the agency in the Bill. Surely the concept of a digital hub is one where we link education and business. That is from where one gets ideas and training which one taps into the business potential. Neither is there any connection between the colleges of art and the digital hub, which would be a key connection in using creativity to help create enterprise and jobs. There is no reference to the immigrant community which is strong in this area and would bring diversity and linguistic ability as well as a different way of thinking which, again, would help ingenuity, creativity and innovation.

We do not want the agency to be a purely educational facility. While we are not going to create a new educational establishment, we need to give an indication to the agency that it can help create educational connections, set up programmes or pull in expertise to bring forward educational modules which will connect to businesses and the local community, particularly the immigrant community. I am not just talking about local PR efforts with the local community, some nice gimmicky scheme where one uses some of the technology one is developing. That would not be the real benefit, which is when we start educating people showing them the possibilities of technology and they come back with ideas for development. While I am concerned about young people, we really need to focus on adults across a range of groups in the community.

We also need to bring culture into the equation. There is no mention in the purpose or role of the agency to develop culture. I would love to see a clause in the Bill stating the agency would organise a couple of parties every year for people working and studying in the area. That would encourage the cross-creativity and connections that the hub is meant to provide. The agency should have a cultural function.

There should also be a much stronger connection to the local authority, with the involvement of at least two local authority members. There is reference throughout the Bill to the agency reporting back to the Minister for Finance and the Minister for this, that and the other. The Minister for Finance has other things to do; this should be a locally-based project, not something dominated by central government.

I do not know which Minister is presenting the Bill – perhaps I should. It could be the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment but the presence of the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, suggests that it may be the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources. It might have been the Minister of State, Deputy Hanafin, in front of me. I do not have a clue which section of Government is responsible for this area. This is a central flaw in Government information communications technology policy, which has no focus to it. I would love to see the Bill coming back at a later stage with a clear indication as to which part of Government is responsible for it.

I wish to share time with Deputy O'Connor.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Costello): Is that agreed? Agreed.

It is nice to see you in the Chair, Acting Chairman. You and I were in Seanad Éireann for a long time and I wish you well in the next four years plus as a Member of this House.

This legislation presents an exciting challenge. I share the sentiments expressed by Deputy Harkin. As a representative of the BMW region, I am aware of the importance of what we are discussing to the future of the island. However, every part of Ireland deserves to have the investment that the people of the Coombe and the Liberties are getting. The poor people of those areas deserve all the assistance the Government can give them and I do not deny them the opportunity with which the Bill is providing them. My godmother used to live in Rainsford Avenue, just off Thomas Street. From visiting that part of Dublin for almost the past 50 years, I am aware that the people of the area deserve this investment and the promotion of the opportunity which the Bill presents them. I wish them well and look forward to every village and town having the same opportunity. It is the way forward. We were taught at school that information was power. The potential for advanced information technology proposed in the Bill will provide a future for this island nation.

Our European colleagues have told us we must no longer have the tax incentives which led to the creation of the phenomenon of the Celtic tiger since 1987. Irish people made this happen with the help of our colleagues in the European Union. No other EU member state starting from a similar position has made so much progress. We are held up as an example of what can be achieved when given the opportunity in countries' with slightly larger populations throughout the world. I agree with the sentiments expressed by Deputy Harkin. We want the same opportunities in the BMW region, without which we will not be operating on a level playing field with our neighbours and competitors in the United States of America in the decades to come.

The Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, should call on the Minister for Finance to consider as a matter of urgency tax measures and incentives in the next budget to allow companies to set up high-tech clusters in every village and town. It is necessary for small industry that this happens if we are to progress to the next stage of development. People in the BMW region are as capable in regard to knowledge-based industries as those elsewhere in the country. Without this opportunity we will find it difficult to sustain existing jobs, create new ones and progress at the rate envisaged by Government. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government should be asked to look at the possibility that all new housing developments – be they one-off or housing estates – should have all the necessary cabling and ducting as a requirement for planning permission.

I listened attentively to Deputy Mulcahy as he outlined in great detail to the House the direction in which he saw Ireland going in regard to high-tech and digital opportunities. He has vast experience in the business world. It would provide a great opportunity for young people if a computer was available to them at home. It will be part of the curriculum and anyone who is not computer literate in the future will be at a significant disadvantage. This is an opportunity which can be considered in future legislation. This is a marvellous window of opportunity and we should grasp it to enhance our future prospects. As public representatives, we should encourage it at every parish and community meeting we go to. That knowledge in the future, and all the proposals before us, are only the beginning of what we want to see for all our people. We want it to be remembered that we, as Members of the 29th Dáil, ensured that the people were given this opportunity.

I join my colleague in wishing the Chair well in his new role. I am sure it will be a quiet time for him. I thank my good friend, Deputy Cassidy, for sharing time with me. He and Deputy Ryan outlined their relationship with the area under discussion, and I shall do likewise. Do not tell anybody, but funnily enough, I am not from Tallaght. I am originally from the inner city, and my father was born on Patrick Street. I will really fill the House in on a secret if nobody repeats it. Some 50 odd years ago, I was a member of the choir on Thomas Street so I can easily establish my relationship with the area. On a day like this, I am happy to do so. By the way, it is my birthday next week—

We will have a party for the Deputy.

No, wait until Wednesday. I am happy to have the opportunity to speak on this subject, and I mention my birthday only because it reminds me that I am of a different generation. My generation has had to adapt to the business before us and I am finding it as challenging as everybody else. However, as I said when debating the local government legislation, it is a time of change and all of us should be open and amenable to change.

While I was looking over the business of the Dáil for this week I remarked to my small support team in Tallaght – who are not PR agents, just a little team who mind me well – that if I understood what it was about I would speak on this Bill. They obtained a number of statements for me, including the development board's strategy statement, and a list of the areas on the digital hub website to bring me up to speed. That has been my homework in the evenings for the past week. I now admit, after considering digital technology, that it is clearly of use. I am now a dedicated follower and supporter of the digital hub concept and will be keeping myself informed of the activities of the agency in the future.

I congratulate Senator Mary O'Rourke, who initiated the development during her time in office, the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and the Minister of State, Deputy John Browne, whom I am happy to see here, for bringing this development to this stage. We should also congratulate Enterprise Ireland and Dublin City Council, of which the Chair is a prominent member, for their innovation and vision. Enterprise Ireland has, over the years, under its different titles, shown itself to be a forward planning organisation which serves this country well.

So important is the digital hub that had I been a Member of this House on its conception, I would, with the information I now have on the subject, have been banging down the door of the Minister at the time to have it based in Tallaght, where the institute of technology and a large and innovative young population would have played an equally constructive role in the digital hub development. When the hub reaches a stage where it needs more space, I might get the opportunity of seeking a sister site in Tallaght. The digital hub will create an international digital enterprise centre in the Liberties area of Dublin city and will make a major contribution to the development of future technology enterprise in both Dublin and the country as a whole, as well as to the regeneration of Dublin's inner city. This is a long-term project and the staged plans run to 2010. These will offer a vibrant location for living, working and learning in our city centre.

Digital media, identified by Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland and Forfás, will present significant opportunities to develop Ireland's high-tech internationally traded services sector and follow our experiences in the computer sector. This will lead the way for Ireland's role in this sector. During my reading, I noted that the digital media and entertainment business is already a global industry worth €178 billion in 2001 and is set to increase to €434 billion by 2006. Even a fraction of this market justifies our support for this initiative.

I welcome the fact that the digital hub project will be fully funded through a public private partnership, with the public sector having already committed major resources. The project will deliver 500,000 square feet of development through a mix of enterprises, retail, residential, learning and educational space, and I am keen to support the educational and learning role, as outlined in the development's strategy statement. The three major learning initiatives planned for the digital hub area are to be commended, and I envy their potential for my constituents in Tallaght.

The learning and technology centre will be the educational and training hub for the formal and non-formal education sectors and will enable the wider community to access information communications technology training and pilot new ways of using digital media in learning. The learning and technology centre role in innovation projects in teaching and learning in the local schools and contributing to greater educational achievement is to be commended. While the provision of access for the local community to computer and Internet facilities, communications studios and ICT-led training will be of great local value, the plan to work with education providers such as DCU and the institutes of technology in supporting staff development for ICT will enable learning in schools and community-based projects.

The provision of a learning facility on Thomas Street for early delivery of a series of courses will become a focal point for schools-based innovation projects, for which I will encourage the schools in my constituency to queue up. It will also showcase digital media in the context of enterprise, community and learning. The proposed digital hub academy, which will facilitate the delivery of a range of digital media courses in the areas of TV-film, computer games and animation, will get any support I can offer. I hope the agency will provide the support in terms of facilities and finance to its graduates to enter the market as small enterprises, knowing that the agency will monitor their activities. The academy will also assist the existing digital media course providers and help them locate in a custom built building on the digital hub site.

By locating courses in the digital hub academy, colleges will have easy access to a range of digital media and creative companies. This will enable mentor-practitioner relationships to develop between companies and students. The Bill appears to be in line with efforts by Departments to shift responsibilities to multiple agencies, casting off day-to-day involvement in operations themselves and allowing agencies to grow and prosper.

It is important that Members of the House from all over the State take the opportunity to understand the changes that are taking pace and welcome the Bill. As someone of a different generation, I believe it is important that we do that. I would love to identify the experts in the House on these issues. Perhaps somebody might send me a list. I am no expert but am happy to learn, and if any Deputies want to take me under their wing, I would be happy to become a devotee and advocate of this project. I am happy to commend the Bill to the House.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill. Like Deputy O'Connor, I am not an expert on computers or IT. I can access the Internet and send emails so I know a little about it. I first wish to outline the Government's record on IT. Ireland has fallen one place in The Economist intelligence unit's e-readiness rankings. This measures how conducive a country is to Internet opportunities. We have fallen to 15th place worldwide, which is very worrying indeed. We lag behind the US, the Netherlands, Britain, Switzerland, Sweden, Australia, Denmark, Germany, Canada, Finland, Singapore, Norway, Hong Kong and Austria. Ireland is ranked 25th of 30 countries surveyed in terms of broadband access for small firms and home users.

A digital divide has emerged along class lines with the failure to develop a proper digital television service preventing lower income groups from gaining access to email and to the Internet. There is a low Internet use among low income families. Geographically the divide shows that high technology is racing ahead in Dublin far quicker than elsewhere in the country. Some 19 Internet data centres were due to be completed in Dublin in 2003, but the total for the rest of the country is two.

Deputy Eamon Ryan referred to the fact that education was left out of the Bill. The ratio of students to computers in a school outside Dublin is 14:1 whereas for schools close to Dublin the ratio is 9:1, which is not a great score card. One exception to that is St. Anne's school in Killaloe. Last Monday, my colleague from County Clare, the Minister of State, Deputy de Valera, opened an extension to that school, where I saw two of the finest computer rooms I have ever seen. They were modern and well laid out. I envy the students of that school having such a modern centre when compared to other post-primary schools that do not have such facilities. I welcome that sort of initiative. It is important that students have computer access in both national and secondary schools. I hope the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, will encourage the Minister for Education and Science to provide such facilities in all post-primary schools.

If ever it is apt to talk of squandering the boom it is with regard to information technology. Fine Gael welcomes the hub, which will secure our national position in IT development. We should remember we already have a digital hub from which we continue to derive national benefit. Coming from County Clare I have some knowledge on this. Five years ago Telecom Éireann had a competition to establish the first information age town in the country. Against stiff opposition from places like Killarney and Castlebar, Ennis won the competition. The town received an investment of €19 million in infrastructure, skills and services from Telecom Éireann. Ennis has its own website which is www.ennis.ie, which is very good and well worth visiting. It was a magnificent achievement at the time and both nationally and internationally the hub has significant advantages. It has become a living laboratory attracting skills and international recognition and branding. Crucially it brings high credibility and acceptance to all sectors, including business, education, the public sector, the voluntary sector and end-users in their homes, which is particularly important.

Ennis has a population of approximately 20,000. There is considerable scope to leverage the infrastructure and people in Ennis for trials, tests and research which would benefit the whole country and put it at the forefront of technological innovation. Ennis now boasts one of the most advanced telecommunications infrastructure in Ireland. The town is served by the French designed Alcatel digital exchange and is equipped with standard and primary ISDN lines which are available on demand. The first digital broadband ring around any town in Ireland was provided in Ennis in 1998. I am delighted the Minister with responsibility for the information society, Deputy Hanafin, has arrived. She has visited Ennis and seen the facilities there.

In 1999 Ennis became the first location in Ireland to have broadband access to the Internet through a new exciting technology, ADSL, which is a digital modem attached to a home phone and connects immediately to a similar modem in the national exchange. It enables connection at very high speed and gives permanent connection to the Internet. Ennis is also the sole location for VDSL with more than 100 installations in the town. VDSL is more advanced than ADSL with extra capacity for television channels.

This is a truly remarkable achievement and a tribute to the innovative people in the town. Some 5,000 ICT business and science students graduate each year from third level institutions in Galway and Limerick. They are only 45 minutes from Ennis. As the information age town, 75% of houses in Ennis have a PC, which is a fantastic achievement. While establishing Ennis as the information age town, many householders took exams in the usage of PCs. In one year alone 4,300 people were trained by 11 agencies around the town. Some 5,200 children in the area have e-mail addresses. This represents a whole generation of children equipped for the technological world that awaits them. Ennis is vibrant because 42% of its population is under 25 years of age. I hope we will be ready for future innovation. Based on a survey in 2001, people in Ennis spend about 8.3 hours per week on the Internet. E-learning at Ennis is a project that ensures lifelong learning through the workforce.

I bring all these facts to the attention of the House to give some context to why we are discussing the Bill today. I welcome section 9(3) of the Bill which outlines breathtaking plans for the Liberties and Coombe areas of Dublin. If this succeeds it will transform the whole area. One can only be excited by the project. However, I temper my excitement with two provisos. We cannot allow educated, well paid and technically literate whiz kids to work, create and innovate while the people of the area get no benefit from the project and their new high tech neighbours. The Government must ensure a proper framework is in place to increase new business opportunities for residents of these areas. We must also remember the budget and the overdue national development plan, which is running in parallel with the national spatial strategy.

Many projects in the national development plan, including the Ennis bypass, are running behind schedule. Road infrastructure is vital. No matter how technologically advanced a town or city, it must have good road access. The Ennis bypass has been promised for years. Many industrialists who come to the town, particularly on Friday afternoons, see traffic jams, an experience which does little to attract new industry. I am sure the position is similar in other provincial towns.

The national spatial strategy launched last year designated Ennis a hub town and Shannon a gateway. The strategy is designed to take the pressure off the capital and bring development to the regions, including County Clare which has suffered tremendously in terms of job losses through the years. For the strategy to be implemented and the Government's policy of balanced regional development to be honoured, the Administration must not rest on its laurels. The Bill and future development of the digital hub must not be viewed as the be all and end all or the dawning of a new technological era.

There have been advances in Ennis. However, despite being designated an information age town and its broadband access, it has also suffered significant job losses in recent years. I have statistics on overseas foreign investment which show it has lost 245 jobs in this sector alone since autumn 2000. The figure for the indigenous sector is 191 making a total of 436 lost jobs. Although we have the technology and information age status and the town has been designated a digital hub, we do not appear to be attracting the jobs that count.

Against this background, Industry Ennis, a new partnership comprising Shannon Development, Ennis Information Age Town Limited, Ennis Town Council, Clare County Council, the IDA, Ennis Chamber of Commerce, FÁS and some private sector representatives, was established recently. The role of the organisation is to lever the advantage of information age town status in order to try to sustain economic development and make Ennis attractive to potential investors.

Since it was established earlier this year, Industry Ennis has made an impact, creating some 102 jobs. Several other initiatives have also been launched, including two overseas projects which it is envisaged will initially create 13 jobs with potential for 12 more. In conjunction with Shannon Development, Industry Ennis has also produced plans to develop the information age park on the Gort Road on the outskirts of the town. Some €10 million has been allocated for the project which will provide infrastructure and services. The first phase will include some 50,000 sq. ft. of office space. The information age park is located alongside the railway line on the western rail corridor which was, unfortunately, ignored again in the strategic rail review published yesterday. The review was extremely disappointing as there were plans to open a small railway station to transport some of the products manufactured in the information age park and provide rail access for workers travelling from other areas.

A major problem for Ennis is that, while it is in one way well located geographically, it has the disadvantage of being located between Galway and Limerick, both of which have universities. In recent times industry has not expanded in line with the increase in population, despite the digital hub and information age status of the town. Ennis is becoming a dormitory town for people working in Galway and Limerick. Industry Ennis will have a vital role in regenerating the town and strengthening outside focus on it.

The Bill must ensure digital hub status benefits the people of my town and the country in general. It must be maintained, developed and allowed to flourish. Any other policy would be detrimental and wasteful. If the Government was to plough time, energy and funding into a new digital hub to the detriment of established information technology centres, it would have a damaging impact in terms of jobs and investment as well as our reputation and IT structures. I hope the Digital Hub Development Agency will give us an international platform to improve our reputation and, above all, provide our growing population with jobs in the information technology sector.

Tá áthas orm labhairt ar an mBille seo agus fáiltím roimh an digital hub atá ag tarlú cheana féin. Inniu tá muid á chur ar bhunús reachtúil. It is a welcome development that in the oldest part of our capital city, an area in which generations of people got jobs in the Guinness company, we are now creating a modern high-tech industry. It provides a strong indication of the state of the economy and the progress we have made in moving forward with new technologies as well as the way in which we are able to link in such technologies with communities.

I wear many hats in the House, one of which is the position of Minister of State with responsibility for the information society. Obviously, therefore, I take a particular interest in the Bill which crosses a range of Departments. Something as tangible as the development of a digital hub is welcome. For some it will mean broadband, for others inclusion while for others it will be about learning skills. The digital hub is an example of how information technology can create employment and generate a solid economy in a specific area. It reminds me of Seán O'Faoláin's words, "There is only one admirable form of the imagination: the imagination that is so intense that it creates a new reality, that it makes things happen."

If ever we had an example of the imagination giving rise to a reality, it is the digital hub.

Deputy Breen talked about Ennis, a digital hub. I had the pleasure of visiting the town and seeing the positive impact digital hub status is having on ordinary citizens of the town and its businesses and communities. One has, on the one hand, the pharmacies which are able to provide a very good service on-line and, on the other, schools in which the children, as the Deputy said, are adept at using computers. I am still trying to work out whether I was glad or sad to hear a little girl say she had three computers at home in the same way a six year old would normally tell one she had three dolls. The example certainly shows the advances being made in Ennis.

I also met the sunset group, pensioners who, in anyone's language, would be described as late in adopting technology, who have managed to create a new network through the use of technology. This is the reality of the digital world today. The digital hub will be a high-tech village in the oldest part of the city. A cluster of Irish and international digital media companies and research, development and educational initiatives will come together. It is wonderful to see the creation, management and distribution of digital content across numerous Internet and digitally enabled platforms.

I recently attended the O2 media awards at which the digital hub played a part. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the Dún Laoghaire Institute of Art, Design and Technology as it won the grand prix award for the tremendous advances it has made and continues to make to the digital media sector in Ireland. The idea for the hub arose from MediaLab Europe, the third level research and development institute established by the Government in partnership with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. The idea was that like-minded people would come together in the hub and optimise the impact of its operations on the commercial sector. Of course, this is not a new idea and I know some Members are wondering whether it will be centred only in that area and whether anyone else will benefit. The idea is that bringing people together will allow the hub to work better and everybody will benefit. It has been brought about by a combination of groups and is a great example of partnership between the Government, Dublin City Council, Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland.

The policy document of the Information Society is called New Connections. It is our blueprint for the future and the hub is one element of it. The hub is based in a premier location and is a local example of what we are trying to achieve nationally. Importantly, it includes the whole community. The people that live in this area have, for generations, worked with Guinness. It is just as important that the local community would feel a part of the new digital hub that is centred in their locality. I visited the Presentation Convent in Warrenmount some weeks ago to open the new computer facilities there. It was wonderful to see those children moving, with their community, into the digital area and embracing computer learning with such enthusiasm and interest. It is important that the companies based there work hand in hand with the community. Investment should go to schools and community centres to ensure everybody benefits from it.

We can already see the progress that is being made as six companies are established there. It is a good mix of companies covering the areas of e-learning, multimedia and digital. It is a sign that knowledge is the new creation factor of wealth. Knowledge is the new economy and is at the centre of our well being as a country. We measure economic indicators every month and it is now acknowledged that 70% to 80% of economic growth stems from new and better knowledge. However, it is difficult to gauge this. Future prosperity will also be gauged on this and the digital hub has a central role to play.

Modern technology enables us to do new things in new ways. It also enables us to do old things more quickly and efficiently and this can drive economic development. This also provides a challenge for the Government as it must try to address any digital divide that emerges. While it is part of the national plan it is also part of an overall European plan, such as the e-Europe 2005 programme. This programme seeks to include all Europeans and provide facilities and services that are relevant to citizens while ensuring people have the correct skills.

This morning I launched the ECDL syllabus four. There are about three million people currently taking ECDL programmes in 100 countries. The centre for the foundation that develops this is based in Dublin. I taught Irish for 17 years and anyone who ever studied Irish learned about Peig Sayers, and her book remained on the syllabus for 50 or 60 years. After six years, the ECDL is now on its fourth syllabus. This demonstrates how quickly developments are being made in this field. Dublin and Ireland is at the centre of ensuring a response to this. The new initiatives that are being introduced involve digital cameras, security and viruses – perhaps there is something we could learn and apply it to our voting system here.

We know from Forfás that our future economy and competitiveness depends on having a high knowledge content. Whereas other countries may challenge us for manufacturing jobs – some areas of the country have suffered from this – Ireland can give added value at the knowledge level. By consistently improving our skills, we will continue to be economically competitive in this area. The Government has invested €130 million in the digital hub project. We must ensure that society and the economy benefits from this and we must ensure that we invest in skills and that it links with Government policy. I believe this can be successful in the long-term.

There is much creativity and expression involved in this area. While many people might draw down a shutter on ICT, we have already seen evidence of the potential and possibilities for digital tools in exhibitions that have been held. The exhibitions have provided a showcase for newcomers, artists, animators, musicians and filmmakers. Such people work out of the digital hub and have found a form of expression through it. It is about the people who will work in it, benefit from it and invest in it, as well as society as a whole, and it will develop in the coming months. It is interesting to see the interest of the six companies that are established there and more are due to come on board in the coming weeks. It is anticipated that it will have 7,000 ICT employees and 10,000 residents. This will revitalise the area as it creates an industrial pocket in Dublin 8. I believe it will have a wider effect throughout society.

Particular credit must be given to Dublin City Council and the role it has played in this in recognising the need to move forward. The council was instrumental in bringing various groups together and this partnership approach made it successful. In looking at the bigger picture, credit must be given to the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, for the progress he has made on the metropolitan area networks and the 19 towns. This will create greater opportunities for people throughout the entire country.

When we talk about ICT and the information society, many people speak of the services that are being made available and the role e-government is playing in it. This country is fortunate in that it has always had an emphasis on education. I met the Greek member of the ECDL foundation this morning. He told me that in the early 1990s Ireland had 75% of the average GDP in Europe while Greece had 65%. Now Ireland's GDP is 133% of the EU average, while for Greece the figure is only 75%. The difference is that Greece invested its European funding in infrastructure while we invested ours in education. However, I felt honour bound to tell him that this had not just happened in the last ten years but that we had been investing in education and training for 40 years. It is this that is having an effect on our advances and has us at the forefront of the knowledge economy and e-government.

Recent reports have shown that Ireland is number one or two in the area of e-government. In that context, there is a challenge to all Departments to ensure they are on-line to provide services people want that represent value for money, are on time and all up-and-running by 2005. Some Departments are making particularly good progress in that regard. The Cabinet will be giving a lead later this year when it becomes an e-Cabinet. It will surprise no one to know that the Cabinet alone generates 1.2 million A4 pages per annum. Each member of the Cabinet carries 4.75 kilogrammes of paper per week. Every piece of legislation and memo circulated for the purposes of Cabinet is circulated not only to 15 Departments but also to 15 people within each Department. The Cabinet then leaves the paper behind on the table after meetings.

They should recycle it.

Not just is this not forest friendly, it is not the most efficient way of doing business. In the autumn the Cabinet will give the lead by becoming an e-Cabinet by doing all its business with the help of a laptop. Not only will we get rid of the paper at the final stages of the preparation of legislation we will also be able to contribute to the process. I suspect it might not be too long before we will all have laptops in the House when Committee and Report Stages of Bills are being taken and, with e-Dáil, it will all come before us on screen.

That is what we are worried about.

What about the virus?

We may need to arrange some basic and advanced training for Members. This is all useful to publicise the advances being made at different levels because most are not aware of what is happening. At local authority level, for example, Kerry County Council, e-procurement is saving a lot of money. It is also being brought forward at government level. It is important to include everybody.

Based close to the digital hub, the Liberties Learning Initiative focuses on education and digital literacy. Pilot projects are in place in partnership with the local community and education providers giving people the skills necessary to move forward through the use of digital video cameras, mini-disc recorders, laptops and the Internet. What is particularly interesting is that hundreds of local students and teachers have been involved in a project called, Digital Storytelling. I am a particular fan of the "Den 2" television programme on Network 2, having appeared with Dustin on two occasions—

I am getting even more worried.

The Minister of State is getting too comfortable.

I am not saying anything.

It was one of the highlights of my political career. I was delighted to see that the Liberties series was running on "Den 2"– the last of which is being shown this afternoon. This is real evidence of how an economic development, well rooted in a local community, can have a wider effect on society. This is to be welcomed. The information society and inclusion are not just about children, they must include everybody, particularly those with disabilities who have been quick to grasp the opportunities provided by technology.

Perhaps one of the most memorable visits I made recently was to St. Joseph's residential home, Brewery Road, Stillorgan where there are a number of long-term residents, many of whom are blind and deaf. One would think that they were isolated and cut-off from the world but that is not the case. Each day one of the residents goes onto Ireland On Line, downloads the interesting stories of the day and prints them out in Braille in order that the residents can read them. That is significant progress from when they used to get English news in Braille, one month late. Now they can get today's Irish news on the day. This is a wonderful example of how the information society can be all-inclusive. Not only do we have investment in the likes of the digital hub – with this legislation to back it up – for the first time in the social partnership agreement there is specific mention of the information society, e-inclusivity and making sure the knowledge economy and information society is there for all our citizens to benefit from equally.

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on the Bill which I welcome. I intend to make my views known on what is an important investment issue for an area in Dublin City which needs major development and assistance. It is also important to remind ourselves that the digital hub refers to the area in Thomas Street where it is intended to cluster Irish and international digital media companies, research and development and education initiatives. I strongly welcome the proposal.

While we all welcome the idea, it is important not to put all our eggs in one basket. I would like to see a high proportion of Irish based and owned companies in the area. We must be constantly on our guard against the fly-by-night companies and get-rich-quick merchants with no loyalty to the State or their staff. This is an economic reality to which we must all face up. With more companies leaving Ireland because of cheaper labour costs elsewhere, we must plan for these realities. We need more creative ideas with a strong semi-State involvement and should never apologise for making such companies the engine room of the economy in the creation of more jobs.

The purpose of the Bill is to place the development company on a statutory basis and rename it, Digital Hub Development Agency. The agency will, in turn, develop the area as a centre of excellence for the digital media industry. I pay tribute to the thousands of Irish and non-national workers involved in these industries because they are the main reason we have attracted investment to Ireland in the first place. We have people who can do the business and we should be proud of them. We should also try to get rid of the tipping-the-cap syndrome, particularly towards the USA, Britain and the European Union. We have a quality workforce which we should exploit and develop further.

I strongly welcome the partnership approach to urban regeneration with such bodies as Dublin City Council. This section is vital to its success and must be linked in with the local community, particularly in relation to jobs. People from the local area must be part of this plan because to exclude them would be a recipe for disaster. There must be a high input from the local workforce from all sections of society, particularly the Thomas Street area. If we do this, the digital hub will have great potential in the area and serve as an example for others throughout the city and countrywide. It is good practice and that should always be rewarded, used in other communities as an example and developed further.

For the project to proceed, extensive refurbishment of properties acquired for the hub must be undertaken. This is already under way and will be a major lift to the area. I hope that there is strong input to the refurbishment from local people with relevant skills. I welcome the involvement of the Office of Public Works, which has a duty to ensure quality investment and reliable public services.

This digital hub will have a major impact on the IT sector. The idea is good, but we must always be open and transparent about this type of development. The recent debate on the Freedom of Information Act does not give me hope, however, as the Government has a record for suppressing freedom of information. We must all be on our guard with reference to what is an important issue in any democratic society. We must treat information technology and information generally as valuable resources which are to be respected.

It has recently been seen how information and the communications industry have been exploited and destroyed, particularly with regard to the war in Iraq. When one turns on a television screen, one has to search for an objective view. Similarly, the Seanad last night heard disgraceful comments from Senators attacking the peace marchers outside the Dáil on the previous night. The Senators seemed to forget the reality of what is happening in the world. Senators and Deputies who have attacked the anti-war movement are out of touch with the people.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is moving well away from the Bill.

Thank you, I am talking about the rights of people to information.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not related to this legislation.

When discussing investment in IT, we should always be conscious of civil liberties and vigilant in that regard.

The Bill has 45 sections and 43 amendments were proposed in the Seanad. I welcome this and, having considered carefully the Bill and the interests of Thomas Street and Dublin, I find the legislation well worth supporting. While dealing with Thomas Street, we might also consider other areas throughout Dublin city, particularly economically disadvantaged areas on the north side. If this project is a success and investment and 7,000 jobs go to Thomas Street, a further project in, for example, the Coolock area of north central Dublin might be considered. There are many vacant sites in that area suitable for further investment.

When discussing investment, the development of IT and the hub, we must be careful to prioritise certain areas. In my area, there is an excellent northside civic centre but one of the problems with its premises is that many of the groups trying to use it find the rent too high. For example, the Northside Citizens Information Centre, the Coolock community law centre and the local radio station, NEAR FM – all groups steeped in the local community – have major problems affording the rent. We must invest resources and finances in the various groups so that they can afford to operate and use services. Certain areas need to be included.

One school on Griffith Avenue in Marino has raised €175,000 but is still short €25,000 to open a computer room. This is not acceptable if we wish to exploit digital hubs and develop resources. The Minister also mentioned IT in the context of children with disabilities, another area with great potential. Those who know anything about children with disabilities will have seen over the past six years how IT has helped them in a very positive way. Children with Down's syndrome and other intellectual disabilities are now, because of IT, better able to develop themselves.

I have much that is positive to say about this Bill. However, we should not forget those who do not have computers and who are not involved with IT. I particularly refer to the 38% of our society that seems to have lost faith in politics. We must invest in these areas to win back ordinary people. Investment in IT and the development of these areas would lead to a radical change in society.

However, there are downsides to the digital world. I do not agree with the idea that a young girl, instead of having three dolls, should have three computers. I am concerned about a lack of exercise among children if they spend hours every day at a computer. That time must be directed and supervised. There are long-term difficulties associated with children not being active in sports. Journalist Tom Humphries wrote an article recently in The Irish Times on the question of lack of exercise and involvement in sports among children, an issue we should monitor closely.

As a member of Dublin City Council since 1999, I strongly welcome its involvement in this project, and its partnership approach. I also welcome the strong Guinness connection in its local community, which is providing options for local people.

This leads me to the debate about society versus the economy. I caution against the drift towards developing Ireland as an economic unit rather than as a society. Deputy McGuinness hinted at this in the recent debate among the Government parties, which saw one party pushing an agenda that is against the natural instincts of the vast majority of Irish people. A right-wing agenda is being pushed by certain people. We must stop this drift and win back society, and IT can make a contribution to this.

I welcome the fact that more than 7,000 people could potentially be employed in the south inner city of Dublin, a magnificent boost for the area, and I welcome the legislation. It is good for Thomas Street, the south inner city, the people of Dublin and Ireland.

I will first reflect on what happened in the House this week with regard to the use of technology and the action taken by the Labour Party, an issue which came to mind as the Chief Whip, the Minister of State, Deputy Hanafin, was speaking. With regard to voting by electronic means, we should now consider the position of Standing Order 69. The whole country watched as we went through the motion of casting our votes electronically before having to turn around to walk through the lobbies. A time must come in the development of information technology and its use in this House when we accept one form of technology and do not revert to other means, unless there is a virus which prevents us from using the available technology.

We know all about viruses.

I compliment you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, on the initiative you took this week in giving a briefing for Members on e-government and technology. With every company in the world developing, moving on and bringing its staff with it, it is amazing to see this House with so little back-up in terms of the development of technology for use in a Member's day-to-day work. Every other company would have breaks for various courses and for improving the skills of its staff to ensure its job is done more efficiently and cost effectively. We do not seem to do that. I urge those responsible in this area to take a fresh look at what is happening in the world and, perhaps, reconnect us to it so that we can work more efficiently and get rid of the paper. I would not just like to see an e-Cabinet—

It is a PD Cabinet.

—but an e-Deputy, so that we can connect with the Cabinet to know what is going on. I acknowledge the investment made by the Government over the past six years. The investment has been significant in terms of bringing this country forward and being at the cutting edge of information and communications technology developments. Other companies, such as the ESB, have made a huge investment in recent times in terms of providing a fibre optic ring, which needs to be connected.

A huge number of computers were made available to schools when Deputy Martin was Minister for Education and Science. The number of computers was further enhanced when initiatives were taken by the private sector. A significant number of schools now has computer facilities. The use of computers and technology is not central to the delivery of education in many areas, however. We need to refocus our policy, not only in relation to educating students who attend schools at primary and secondary level, but also to ensure that computers are used in classes for mainstream subjects. IT should become part and parcel of the delivery of education in this country. If more computer facilities, such as designated computer rooms, are required, we should re-evaluate the delivery of the schools building programme. We should ensure that computerisation is part and parcel of the education system.

I found that there was a huge interest in my constituency when computers were made available as part of the inclusion of IT in the schools programme. Young people are driving the technological agenda – I know my children are far more advanced than me in the use of technology. We need to tap into such resources and energies to ensure that the ICT programme continues to develop as part of the process of creating a truly information-based society, one that can tap into all education and business advantages.

I would like to acknowledge the contribution of county enterprise boards to information technology developments. Grants have been advanced to various companies to ensure that they are at the cutting edge of business development. The work of the enterprise boards has ensured that SMEs have remained connected to wider developments in commerce. Such businesses are able to take advantage of the information and communication technologies that they have been given as tools.

I also acknowledge the, admittedly slow, technological advances in local government. Public representatives are now equipped with laptops to enable them to access the information they require. I ask that these changes in terms of local government be developed even more so that the amount of information available to public representatives for their constituents will become far greater than it is at present. The need to telephone an official will no longer exist if one can access on-line the information one requires to respond to a constituent's inquiries.

The greatest saving that can be made in this country relates to e-procurement. I am surprised by the slowness of the development of e-procurement facilities. Millions of euro can be saved if we develop the e-procurement area.

It is important that private companies have an input in this regard. Eircom's information age town initiative some years ago created a hunger and a desire among the general population to become connected and to avail of technology to do all sorts of things. Technological advancements of this kind have helped the public to make progress in business and education, or simply to gather information or take courses on the Internet. The digital hub is building on the Eircom initiative, which proved to be a huge success, as a concept by taking the successful parts of it and creating the success story that the hub will become.

The hunger for technology among the e-literate population is accompanied by the danger that we are about to create a two-tier society. We have to continue to fund local communities that are showing an interest in this area so they can include the marginalised and those who are associated with community and family resource centres in this process. The use of information technology as a tool by such people helps them to find a path out of the cycle of unemployment and back into education and employment. We have to continue to invest in such areas if we are to eliminate the possibility of a two-tier information society. New job creation initiatives will be opened if this can be achieved. I have seen in my constituency that technology is taken up as it is made available. People are on-line and are interested in moving on, but they are also keen to gain jobs from that concept.

A consequence of the fact that investment has paid off is the need to move beyond normal ECDL courses to higher level courses. Such courses need to be delivered at community level if we are to ensure that we stay connected to people who are interested. Private sector interests and businesses are able to keep pace with developments as a result of their own financial advantages, but other sectors need to be assisted. We need to understand that we have a highly literate population in terms of information technology. If we give people the opportunity to make progress, they will become employable, they will create initiatives and they will set up companies that will employ people in the technology sector.

Problems are continuing to exist in the global economy while we are debating this issue. People are not investing in technology because there are suspicions as a consequence of the events of the past four years. When companies take a fresh look at technological possibilities, they will realise that the growth in the sector has not ended but is beginning to grow. We need to invest in the cutting edge of technological development so that we can avail of the jobs that will be created in the new economy if we have the confidence to invest and to persevere.

Ireland has a young population of people who are keenly interested in technology. Their creativity is shown in European countries and American companies and in their designing of software and development of training courses. As legislators and public representatives, we need to understand that a movement is taking place and to tap into the energy and direction that exists. We need to show the confidence to take the next steps, to pass this Bill and perhaps regionalise hubs so that we can take advantage of what they will deliver in terms of education and jobs. Computrain, a training company based in Kilkenny, received an award in the RDS yesterday for an initiative it has taken in that area. We need to encourage such companies to continue the process. Many hundreds of people are being given certificates for doing ECDL courses. Women based in the home, in particular, are deciding to start a new life in the workforce by taking ECDL training and learning how to use computers. The fact that they are choosing to make themselves available for employment means that a huge energy is now available to the economy. We need to appreciate this resource and to tap into it.

One of the big drawbacks in the area of connectivity is that so much fibre optic cable in the ground is simply not lit. I suggested to the Minister for Finance that those who are penalised for not developing derelict sites should also be penalised if cable in the ground remains unlit. This country badly needs such a resource in difficult economic times. Penalties should be imposed in this regard to ensure that companies who are responsible for fibre optic cable bring it to life and make it available to the public. Packages need to be put in place as part of this process to ensure that the service is delivered into every home. It is pointless that companies should leave the cable in place, although it may have a purpose for Eircom, which is cornering the market.

We need to free the market if the economy is to grow. We need to ensure that the fibre optic cable rolled out on the ESB's lines – I commend the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, for supporting the recent announcement in that regard – is taken the last mile, as we call it, or the first mile as the Americans call it. If the ESB works in partnership with various companies, it has the wireless technology to take this that last mile. I encourage the Government to be the anchor tenant with the ESB to ensure a critical mass of use is reached to deliver the technology to homes throughout the country. It is pointless to talk up the positive side of information and communications technology if we do not provide for the tangible delivery of the service to the home of every person. They should be able to connect at a low charge and stay on-line permanently but this can only be done if the Government takes the initiative, not by way of investment but by being the line tenant which ensures the next phase goes ahead. If that is done, we will instil the confidence required to ensure the ESB and others take the development to its final stages.

There are small companies which can make this possible with the co-operation of local authorities. They can use hubs to deliver in cities like Kilkenny and take the development to the county and the region. The regions must be brought along with this development. It is the only way to do this. One of the lessons learned from the information age town initiative was that it was pointless to have Ennis on its own. It is isolated from Kilkenny, Killarney and Castlebar which should be connected and able to talk to each other. Ennis is talking to itself but it must reach beyond to connect regionally and then Dublin to form a basis for building an information age society for the future. I ask the Minister to examine the notion of regional hubs.

I am chairman of a group in Kilkenny which has purchased a building with its own money and some assistance from Eircom to house the Malting project, a €3 million development. It is similar to the digital hub project in Dublin which has many parallels with the aims and objectives of the Kilkenny information age initiative. Our strategy focuses on the delivery of information and communications technology policies and we have undertaken 40 ICT projects in business, education, the community and local government. The flagship project is supported by Enterprise Ireland. The building we have purchased will bring together the community, young entrepreneurs, those already working in the field and software designers. It will create an environment in which they can work and give those already skilled in our community confidence in a way forward through technology. There are real jobs available. This is not just something for the big shots, it can be taken advantage of by those who are marginalised as well as others in society if we demonstrate that a national plan is being worked to.

Regional hubs are almost established but we need to formalise them. I do not doubt that the lessons of the hub formulated in this Bill can be replicated in the regions if we talk to each other. We can learn from each other's mistakes and success stories and share information, which is essentially what the information society is all about. We can cut down on expense because once the wheel is invented there is no need to go back over the process. Government needs to understand that once this hub is financed and running, it can be replicated at far less cost in the regions which will lead to benefits in terms of jobs and education. An information society will benefit from a national approach. While we were at the cutting edge and perhaps ahead of the posse, Europe has now caught up with us. We are competing on almost the same ground.

They have passed us by.

The Deputy may say they have passed us by but he may have travelled more.

One does not have to have travelled to know that.

We are ahead of other governments in the way we present ourselves in this House. We are ahead of them in terms of technology.

Our voting machine has failed about four times.

One will never find technology which will not fail in the same way that one will not find a Deputy who will not fail one. We had the technology to vote last week but the Labour Party made us walk through the lobby. What was the sense in this?

That was a different count.

What story are we telling people outside the House? What kinds of fools are we making of ourselves when we do it?

The machine has failed five times already.

It was time wasting.

Deputy McGuinness, without interruption. Deputy Durkan will have an opportunity to speak in two minutes.

One must have confidence in what one is doing. I appreciate that there may be a lack of confidence on the benches opposite but over here there is confidence in what we are doing. I am confident that in the context of this Bill, we will be able to move forward. We are an example for other parliaments to follow but Deputy Durkan simply does not wish to recognise it.

I commend the Bill to the House. It is a fine example of legislation and acknowledges current circumstances. It will do a great deal for our knowledge based society and industry. I warn against social exclusion in technology and education and encourage the Minister to look at the regions. He should find out if we can bring everyone forward together at a very low cost.

Unfortunately, I have only 20 minutes to speak on this matter as I would like to have considerably more time. I am sorry to see that my esteemed colleague from Kilkenny is about to leave the House.

I will stay and listen to the Deputy.

There are some subjects in which I take a passing interest and others in which I take a much more sustained interest. During my 27 years of public life not one single person attended a clinic to tell me he or she wanted electronic voting in the Dáil. I am surprised at this and I am sure the Minister of State is equally surprised. I am sure he has had the same disappointment.

Everybody in the west is looking for it.

Nobody has come to me to ask the reason we do not have e-technology in the Dáil and to question the reason we go through the lobbies.

The people want it.

Deputy McGuinness fails to recognise that during his last five years on the benches opposite there was a reformation. New technology descended on this House in all its glory but it failed to work.

Very seldom.

It failed not once, twice, three or four times but five times.

That is once a year in six years.

Quite rightly, the Labour Party had a doubt about the ability of our voting machine to perform calculations.

It is easy to count the votes on the opposite side of the House.

Please permit Deputy Durkan to speak without interruption.

It was proven to err on previous occasions. I am surprised that an experienced businessman and Deputy like Deputy McGuinness would come to the House to suggest we should trust our lives to technology that has been proven to have a tendency to fail.

Very seldom. It is hardly needed to count the votes on the opposite side of the House as there are so few of the Deputy's colleagues left.

There has been much discussion in recent weeks of the guillotine. The Minister of State should remember that the guillotine never failed. This technology does. One could have rung one's local authority 25 years ago to inquire about any file one wanted. One could get instant information at the touch of a telephone button but what happens now?

One will not get an answer.

One will not get an answer unless one is very lucky.

Then they end the dual mandate.

As Deputy Ring has pointed out, when the dual mandate is suspended, one will not get an answer.

Fine Gael is supporting the ending of the dual mandate.

If one gets an answer, the unfortunate person at the other end of the telephone will be forced to tell one that his or her computer is down. That is the end of the story. Where then is Deputy McGuinness' information technology, his business science and advanced business school? What does one tell the unfortunate constituent inquiring about the status of an application or grant? There are only 166 Members of this House and if the machine invented to handle the calculations involved cannot perform its function, I hate to think of what would happen if the numbers involved were really large.

We are always winning on this side of the House.

I do not agree with most of my colleagues on either side of the House on this issue. I have a fundamental reason for being very suspicious of modern technology. I am quite sure the Minister of State has been driven crazy by the number who have come into his constituency clinics over the last ten or 20 years looking for electronic voting at elections. I know that it is a constant bone of contention in our constituencies. They all want electronic voting at general elections.

While a passing reference is appropriate, we are moving well away from the Bill.

I have been inspired by the last speaker's references to this kind of technology and want to deal with it before I deal with the Bill.

The Deputy is living in the past.

I appreciate the Deputy is inspired and a passing reference is acceptable. However, a debate on the matter of electronic voting at local elections might be more appropriate to a local government Bill.

No. It is fundamental to the Government and this Bill.

It is not. I would prefer if the Deputy returned to the substance of the Bill.

The Deputy should move into the modern era.

When I have finished this sentence, a Cheann Comhairle, you will be in agreement with me because you, too, could become a victim, albeit not in present circumstances.

The Ceann Comhairle expresses no views on the matter.

The Ceann Comhairle's vote does not count.

I always like to express an interest in the well-being of the Ceann Comhairle, as he knows.

Not one person ever asked me to ensure electronic voting was introduced in the Dáil. I do not know from where the inspiration is coming but I do not trust it. If the system in the House cannot count such a small number of Members, I do not trust it. It brings control within the ambit of a small number, which worries me. The Deputy sitting opposite knows full well that I speak the truth.

Would the Deputy not like to know whether he had won or lost?

Please allow Deputy Durkan to move on to the substance of the Bill.

I presume he would like to know the results of a general election quickly.

The Minister of State might not like to know the results of the next general election very quickly. Tarry a little, all will be revealed in due course.

We are safe enough.

Will Deputy Durkan, please, address his remarks through the Chair?

I am addressing them through the Chair but I did not wish to offend you, a Cheann Comhairle. That is the reason I addressed them across the floor.

I have to go to the parish pump.

I ask the Deputy not to leave. He is great fun. What he said in his speech was outside the realm of the parish pump.

Is the Deputy going to meet the Tánaiste?

I have no problem with the concept of the digital hub. I agree with the concentration of investment in modern technology in a particular location for the benefit of the country and business at large. However, I do not want to be told on a regular basis that this is the only way to do it and if we are not capable of doing it this way, we are losing out. Many others have managed without such a system. I do not want to be told we have no option except to go this route because there are dangers. There is the danger of becoming totally dependent on a particular system that does not always live up to expectations.

The Schedule to the Bill delineates the digital hub area. It sounds like a rambler's map. It is a page and a half long and finishes up by stating, ". . . then continuing in a southerly direction across Thomas Street West to the first mentioned point". In other words, it comes back to where it started.

I am aware that the development plan for Dublin is the framework within which this digital hub is located. While I have no difficulty with the concept of the hub, I do not understand the reason it was decided to follow the points from A through to D. I would like more information on the criteria being followed. As I have never been a member of Dublin City Council, I am totally at sea. The Minister may say this is a normal method of describing—

It is a very accurate method.

I used to be a member of the Committee of Public Accounts and the only other agency similar to this was Campus Stadium Ireland. I sincerely hope there are none of the strings attached as appeared to have been attached to that agency because it stretched the imagination for a long time. I will give this one the benefit of the doubt. I presume everything is above board and that there is no similarity but that caught my eye as I glanced through the Bill. Certain procedures of accountability will have to be followed. There will need to be transparency and openness, not exactly features of what is coming from the other side of the House.

I do not agree with the Deputy.

The Freedom of Information Act is going through a certain traumatic examination. I have no doubt that in another five years it will be examined again and there will be good reasons sought and found to extend the time to 15 years instead of ten.

I am pleased the Deputy knows we will be still there in five years.

The only good thing that can happen is that the Government will not be in office and somebody else will decide next time.

The Deputy will be looking through a glass window.

I know that the digital hub is theoretically a good cause and that it should be good for business and society and the international reputation of the country. I notice that €80 million has already been spent on the purchase of property. The cost of the purchase of property in 2001 was €51.94 million and in 2002, €21.7 million. The cost of broadband infrastructure for the digital hub area was €2.29 million. It is interesting that the operating expenses of Digital Media Development Limited amount to €2.54 million. Its other operating expenses in 2002 were slightly less than in 2001 at a mere €2 million. I am a little uneasy about some details having had the experience of examining similar agencies and companies. I sincerely hope there will not be a revisitation of these areas in the context of this Bill.

I wanted to mention something else which seems to have escaped me for the moment.

Not a lot escapes the Deputy.

Have you ever noticed, a Cheann Comhairle, how things can escape from your mind for one moment and a whole lifetime can be spent looking for them only for them to suddenly reappear?

The explanatory memorandum to the Bill states:

Section 24 is a standard provision requiring members of the Agency, the Chief Executive and a director of a subsidiary of the Agency to make a declaration in writing of his/her interests to the Minister on their appointment. The form of this declaration will be specified by the Minister following consultation with the Minister for Finance.

I have read many a grand phrase in my time and can see the Minister of State's officials looking askance—

It is normal procedure.

—at the mere thought that anybody would become suspicious that this is not normal procedure and practice. It is normal procedure up to a point. Members of this House have to make a statutory declaration to the Public Offices Commission. Why do the requirements of the Public Offices Commission not apply to a matter of this nature? Is it not equally important that agents, bodies or those accountable to the Minister or the Department with responsibility for the expenditure of public funds should be expected to lodge the declaration in the most appropriate place, where we must all lodge our declarations, in the Public Offices Commission? I suggest that might not be a bad idea. It may not be a very good idea, depending on who looks at it, and in which direction, but I suggest that some consideration be given to it. May I refer to section 24?

Yes, as long as the Deputy stays within the confines of the Bill.

Difficult as it may be, I will do my utmost. Section 24 reads:

On his or her appointment, the chief executive and each member of the Agency and a committee and a director of a subsidiary, shall make a declaration in writing of his or her interests to the Minister, in such form as the Minister, following consultation with the Minister for Finance, may specify.

On his or her appointment, each consultant or adviser and each member of the staff of the agency at a grade or level specified before the appointment by the agency, following consultation with the Minister, shall declare his or her interests in writing to the chairperson of the agency and the chairperson shall inform the agency at its next meeting of the interests declared and the names of those making the declarations.

It is normal procedure.

I have no difficulty with that. If the chairperson does not like the declaration of interests, he or she will not have to do anything about it. He or she will merely have to report to the board. The interests must be declared in writing to the chairman who shall inform the agency at its next meeting of the interests declared. I presume it will be to the entire board of the agency, or will it be to a chief executive or a single person? It might be no harm to have another look at that aspect. I get worried whenever the Government comes up with something which is apparently open, transparent and accountable. My chilblains begin to act up straight away.

It is easy to make them act up.

It is not easy, but they get frequent calls to act up, which is the problem. Perhaps that section can be looked at to see if it might be possible to provide safeguards from the point of view of the Minister as well as the public. After all, the public are the last people to be considered by the Government in any circumstances. The Government had a very successful general election.

Very successful.

The fact that one wins a general election does not mean people can walk on water afterwards, whatever about walking on the people.

The Deputy should read section 24(8).

It reads as follows: "Where a person to whom subsection (1) applies fails to make a declaration in accordance with that subsection or to update such declaration in accordance with subsection (3), the Agency shall decide the appropriate course of action (including removal from office. . . ).” If one were to depend on that being the absolute security in terms of safeguards, one would want to be careful. The Minister should read the subsection again.

The Deputy ignored it.

There is no safeguard for the public. There must be adequate provision from the point of view of ensuring that a Minister is safeguarded in what he or she is doing. One never knows when questions may be raised. The Minister may be completely innocent but circumstances outside his or her control may dictate the pace of events, and we all know where that can lead.

Perhaps the Deputy should have more faith in his Ministers.

The Deputy has one minute remaining.

I am sorry about that, a Cheann Comhairle. It is one of the issues to which I have often objected in the past. We have very set time limits on debates.

There is unlimited time for this Bill.

There is not unlimited time. Unfortunately, there is a time slot of 20 minutes.

If members of the committee on Dáil reform wish to change things, the Chair will be glad to implement whatever changes are made.

I must express my disappointment at the findings of the committee on Dáil reform in the past. They have restricted my ability to express my views in this House. When my constituents elected me repeatedly, and with some difficulty on a number of occasions, they gave me carte blanche to speak on their behalf for as long as I wished. We will discuss that issue later.

I have no problem with the fundamental concept. I hope it goes well and lives up to expectations. I hope no aspect of it will become a disappointment which we will have to investigate in the future. I hope there is not a general belief that seems to emerge from the opposite side of the House, a lemming-like urge to charge in a particular direction, that we are ultimately dependent on this high tech notion spreading from that side of the House and if we do not embrace it, we are in some way a deficient race. I accept that time constraints will not allow me to continue, but I would like to have an opportunity to indulge further on this issue with the Minister of State or any other Member on that side of the House.

I begin by thanking Deputies for their contributions, which indicate a high level of understanding of the issues involved. A number of Members have first-hand knowledge of the project which has been demonstrated in the detailed comments. I would say to Deputy Durkan that this is the second or third day we have had a debate on the Bill to which 26 speakers contributed. There is tremendous interest in the digital hub not just in Dublin but throughout the country. There is a need to look at these services in the future and the Minister will take that aspect on board. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Hanafin, for her input, support and contribution.

I will deal with some of the issues raised by Deputies Coveney, Kehoe, Broughan, Cuffe and others in regard to funding for the project. I clarify for Deputy Broughan that this project was not subject to the cutbacks in the 2003 Estimates. As originally provided for, the Government is investing a total of €130 million in the project, despite what Deputy Durkan might say. It is envisaged that a further €120 million will come from the private sector, through the PPP, bringing the total investment to €250 million.

In response to Deputy Cuffe, the prerequisite to the project was that a significant tranche of property would be bought at the outset. Deputy Durkan raised the issue of the money spent on property. This sends a clear message to the private sector of the Government's concrete commitment to the project. It was also necessary to pave the way for facilitating private sector investment through the PPP process. In addition, as indicated in the opening speech, six companies are now operating in the hub. This will increase substantially when the print works building opens later this year.

In reply to Deputies' comments that the Taoiseach remains fully committed to the project, it was considered a priority while being managed in his Department. The funding allocation was agreed before the transfer of the project from the Taoiseach's Department to the Department of Public Enterprise. His support for the project has been well documented. He has given it high priority and it is fitting that he is launching the digital communities programme next week. He is taking a hands-on approach to the project.

Deputy Coveney also referred to the accounting issue that arose for DMDL last year. The operational allocation for DMDL in 2001 was €2.5 million. The spend in the same year was €2 million, which left €500,000 to be carried over, in addition to the 2002 allocation of €2 million. Therefore, a timing issue arose in relation to the spending of this €500,000. It was a technical accounting issue, which was resolved following discussions between the Department of Finance, my Department, the Comptroller and Auditor General and the company. It did not affect the company's allocation for 2001 and 2002, which it received in full. When the legislation is enacted, the company will obtain a rent roll and will have recourse to borrowing.

A number of Deputies, including Deputies Cuffe and Ó Snodaigh, raised the question of the attractiveness to international companies of the long-term viability of the digital hub. Deputies also mentioned other international high-tech clusters, such as those located in Seoul and Kuala Lumpur. I am aware that we are not the only country to see opportunities in the emerging digital media sector. We must model our approach to developing this new sector in a way that is proportionate to our resources and strength. This approach has served us well in the remarkable progress the country has made in the IT sector in recent years.

Under State aid rules, we cannot offer special tax incentives, but as has been shown by other high-tech clusters around the world, the clustering of these specialist enterprises and research initiatives creates the critical mass of knowledge and expertise necessary to foster the growth of the specialist companies involved. These enterprises and individuals need to be able to tap into a network that facilitates the development of research projects and business ideas, access to venture capital and links with global industry and academia. They also need to be able to do this in an environment that is not adverse to the risk that goes with innovation.

It is part of the remit of the digital hub that linkages are established, both nationally and internationally, in the context of an overall knowledge economy strategy. This brings me to the question of linkages between the digital hub, MLE and our third level institutions. The academic community expressed concerns about the arrival of MLE, which was natural as the joint venture represented a new departure for the country. I accept that MLE has been affected by the downturn in the technology sector, which is hardly surprising given the impact of the downturn on the sector as a whole. However, it is making strides to improve its sponsorship revenue, both in terms of corporate sponsorship and availing of EU research funding.

It has also created linkages with the third level sector, with the colleges nearby and others. A number of Deputies referred to this and expressed concern that other colleges have not been included. The Government has recognised the importance of these linkages and for the duration of the national development plan, it has allowed over €1 million per annum for collaborative projects between MLE and the third level sector in the country. To date, almost €4 million has been spent under this initiative. MLE has its own agreements with the Government, which includes linkages with third level colleges and industrial promotion agencies.

With regard to linkages between the digital hub and the third level sector, relationships have already been established on a number of education and training initiatives, such as the digital hub community and digital story-telling projects, which also involve local schools. A number of Deputies, including Deputies Upton and Crowe, referred to this. It is a key part of the agency's strategy that these links will develop into a permanent presence in the area, meeting the training needs of the local community and the workforce in the hub.

A number of Deputies raised the important issue of community consultation in the digital hub and how real benefits will accrue from these projects. Deputies Ryan, Ó Snodaigh and Upton, in particular, brought their local knowledge of the serious deprivation suffered in this area to bear on this aspect. I welcome the detailed account by Deputy Ryan of what has been achieved to date by the digital hub in working with local communities. As he said, the project is fully committed to respecting the tradition and heritage of the area. Deputies Ardagh, Upton and other Deputies from the area made a number of interesting comments on this aspect. All Members, even those from the sunny south-east, are aware of the importance and traditions of the Liberties area of Dublin and the need to help and support it and protect its culture and values.

I agree that serious problems exist in this area of Dublin, as pointed out by Deputies Mulcahy, Upton and others. A key priority of the development team in the hub is to ensure that the project can contribute as fully as is feasible to the alleviation of these problems. However, it is also important to sound a note of realism. While the development of the digital hub must, and will, deliver real and sustained benefits to the local community at all levels, it cannot assume full responsibility for solving long-standing problems in the area, such as education and housing. It can also contribute new ides and energy in the way it works in partnership with local groups and Dublin City Council, which will only add to improving the existing efforts to improve the quality of life and opportunities for the residents in the area.

While the issue of social and affordable housing is outside the scope of the new agency, any development in the digital hub will be subject to Dublin City Council's housing strategy, which means that a quota of 20% will have to be reserved for affordable housing. This will be of interest to Deputies Upton, Mulcahy, Ardagh and others who raised this issue. It is important that Dublin City Council recognises the important role it must play in the provision of affordable housing in this area of Dublin.

During passage of the Bill through the Seanad, the Minister gave an undertaking to issue a direction to the new agency when it is established to report to him on further strategies to deal with access and social inclusion issues. On a related point, a number of Deputies raised the question of the representation of the local community on the board of the agency. Section 22 deals with the disqualification from membership of the agency of Members of the Oireachtas. While in the main this is a standard section, it has been altered in one important detail. Normally, local representatives would be disqualified from sitting on such a board, however, it was decided in this situation that it was important to allow such representation, to take account of the need to provide input from the local community to the board by those with real local knowledge. This is in line with precedent, such as the provisions relating to the Dublin Docklands Development Authority.

I again thank Members for their input to this debate. Some 26 Deputies made a valuable contribution. Matters can be considered in detail on Committee Stage. I also thank my officials for their assistance.

Question put and agreed to.
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