The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 18, Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003 [Seanad] – Order for Report, Report and Final Stages; and No. 2, Immigration Bill 2002 [Seanad] – Second Stage. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Report and Final Stages of No. 18, shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance. Private Members' Business shall be No. 33, Motion re Standard of School Accommodation (Resumed), to conclude at 8.30 p.m.
Order of Business.
There is one proposal to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 18, the conclusion of Report and Final Stages of the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003 agreed to?
No, it is not agreed to. This is an ill thought out measure. It was not included in the programme for Government. There has not been adequate consultation on it. Some 85 amendments are tabled for discussion today and there is no conceivable way Members of the House can have an opportunity to debate this matter thoroughly, as would be in the public interest. This amounts to a cynical exercise by Government, which is ramming through these amendments by guillotine today in a hypocritical fashion to save itself embarrassment from the public having the right to access to information leading to Government decisions. I object to this in the strongest possible terms. It is a denigration of the rights of Members of the House who represent the public to assume that we can get through 85 amendments between now and 7 p.m. this evening. This is a nonsense. The proposal is ill thought out and it did not involve any consultation. It amounts to arrogant and contemptuous treatment of the House by Government, and I object to it.
I repeat remarks in all seriousness that I made earlier, that I regret that what has happened here has not received the attention and analysis in the media, which it ought to have, because of greater events. What is being done here is a disservice to democracy. Journalists will live to rue the day. The character of our democracy will be less healthy as a result. We have not taken up a position of opposition to reviewing the efficacy of the Freedom of Information Act. We are quite amenable to doing that. We offered to freeze frame the existing legislation for one year to give an opportunity to take in public, evidence from users of the Act about its operation. What has the Government to hide that it is fearful of hearing expert evidence in public on how the Act is performing and what hitches, if any, there are and what changes need to be made? This is a bad day's work in this House. I hope people will remember it for the Government. As Deputy Kenny said, there are 85 amendments tabled and amendments have been guillotined at all Stages. We will continue to oppose this Bill brought in by the Government at every Stage, including this Stage.
The Green Party, An Comhaontas Glas, also opposes the proposal for dealing with No. 18. This reminds us again of the undemocratic way this legislation came into being, which lack of democracy has been compounded by the proposed guillotining of Second, Committee and Report Stages. It is a disgraceful admission on the Government's part that it has brought in legislation without consultation and now wants to dispense with normal democratic procedures to the greatest extent possible by guillotining all Stages. I support Deputies Kenny and Rabbitte and I ask the Government to look at this issue again and pull back from this, albeit at the eleventh hour. It is clear the Taoiseach himself is regretting the end of the halcyon days when notes could be passed around without being disclosed but that was not in the interest of public accountability. The Government should look at where its interests lie if it is to be genuinely democratic.
Sinn Féin cannot agree to the Order of Business. Report and Final Stages of this so-called amending legislation will be run though in four and a half hours, at best, before 7 p.m. The Committee Stage took four full days and still did not conclude, with amendments still outstanding. All the salient arguments to be made about each amendment are now to be contracted into four and a half hours.
Let there be no question or doubt about it – this amending legislation is being rushed through in order to facilitate the Government which has been in place since 1997. The Taoiseach said earlier the Act is working well in his Department and that he saw no reason to change it. There is no reason to change it because the substantive Act is regarded internationally as a template for best practice. It is hard to comprehend why we are now returning to the days of secrecy and veiled decision-making. This Bill goes against the ethos of the 1997 Act and accordingly, even at this late stage, I hope the Taoiseach sees the light and withdraws the legislation entirely.
The Bill has obviously attracted a great deal of attention. It was debated for 27 hours in the Seanad and for three days on Second Stage in this House. The debate on Committee Stage went on for four days and included some of the longest days in the session, including today. It is therefore not factual to say the Bill has been rushed. Since the introduction of the Act in 1998, the FOI legislation has played an important part in promoting openness and will continue to do so. After four years, a number of issues needed to be addressed and the high level group set up by the Government focused on the integrity of the Cabinet's deliberative process in ensuring an appropriate level of transparency and openness in the public interest. It is not true to say the high level group did not consider the views of others, which were well outlined by the Government side.
The high level group made it clear that it had only one input.
The Taoiseach, without interruption.
There was no consultative process.
Many people put their views on this.
The high level group did what the Taoiseach asked.
In drafting the legislation, the Department of Finance also considered amendments suggested by the Information Commissioner. The draft legislation was therefore informed by a full range of experience and views on the operation of the Act over the past five years. The Government believes the present 30-year moratorium on Cabinet records should be reduced to ten years.
The Government is extending it.
We have now taken 20 years off which will be far more beneficial to journalists, academics and historians.
It was subject to examination in five years. The Taoiseach is trying to avoid this.
Deputy Kenny has already spoken on behalf of the Fine Gael Party. Allow the Taoiseach to proceed without interruption.
That is better than other countries which have freedom of information, where the moratorium can be 20 years or more. We are changing the Act regarding collective Cabinet responsibility, which is recognised in the Constitution. It provides for confidentiality on decisions or discussions in Cabinet without time limits. The process of collective Cabinet decision-making, and with it effective Government, would be fatally undermined if records in relation to those decisions were released. Such decisions were made for the right reasons. They were the right decisions and every Member knows them.
In time, there will be greater changes with freedom of information but the Government decided to be minimalist with its changes. We are not changing some things which should never have been included in the first place.
What the Taoiseach is saying bears no relation to the truth.
Most people who have argued against this Bill do not understand it in the first place. Those who have made points in the House which were not correct will see time prove these changes to be very minor.
The Taoiseach did not consult with anyone.
Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 18 be agreed to."
The Dáil divided by electronic means.
As part of the Labour Party campaign to prevent the destruction of the Freedom of Information Act by the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats Government and the axing of the debate on all Stages, I, as a teller, insist on a vote by other than electronic means.
As Deputy Stagg is a teller, he is entitled under Standing Order 69 to call a vote through the lobbies. The vote will take place in three minutes' time.
Question, "That the proposal for dealing with No. 18 be agreed to", again put.
Tá
|
Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, Barry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Seamus.Browne, John.Callanan, Joe.Carty, John.Cassidy, Donie.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Cregan, John.Cullen, Martin.Curran, John.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Fox, Mildred.Gallagher, Pat The Cope.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Hoctor, Máire. |
Jacob, Joe.Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Seamus.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McDowell, Michael.McEllistrim, Thomas.Martin, Micheál.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Peter.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Wilkinson, Ollie.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V. |
Níl
|
Allen, Bernard.Boyle, Dan.Broughan, Thomas P.Bruton, John.Bruton, Richard.Burton, Joan.Connaughton, Paul.Connolly, Paudge.Costello, Joe.Crawford, Seymour.Cuffe, Ciarán.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard J.English, Damien.Ferris, Martin.Gilmore, Eamon.Gogarty, Paul.Higgins, Michael D.Howlin, Brendan.Kenny, Enda.Lynch, Kathleen. |
McCormack, Padraic.McGrath, Finian.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Olivia.Morgan, Arthur.Murphy, Gerard.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Pattison, Seamus.Penrose, Willie.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat. Ring, Michael. |
Níl– continued
|
Ryan, Eamon.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Sherlock, Joe.Shortall, Róisín. |
Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary. |
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Moloney; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.
Question declared carried.
Will an opportunity be provided for statements on the Iraqi conflict next week following the discussions the Taoiseach had with the British Prime Minister and President Bush and given that great numbers of people have views on how they perceive this matter should be addressed? Can I take it there will be time for statements or a debate next week?
I support the request.
I also support it. The issue was raised earlier.
We also want to record support for the request.
The Minister for Foreign Affairs is taking Question Time today. If Members still require statements after that, I understand the House will meet for two days next week. There is also a possibility of having statements on Northern Ireland next week. I suggest we wait and see what happens.
In respect of the Taoiseach's discussions with Kofi Annan, given that looting has now broken out in Baghdad and elsewhere, that revenge-taking and retribution can be expected and that the US and British forces will stand aside in terms of any policing—
We cannot have a debate. The matter was already raised under Leaders' Questions.
If I may finish my sentence, a Cheann Comhairle, I am not trying to start a debate on the matter. My point is that the forces of the United States and the UK will not engage in a policing role, therefore making it all the more important—
The Deputy is moving into a debate. The question has been answered. I call Deputy Costello on another matter.
–to have United Nations involvement. For that reason, it is important that the Taoiseach would accede to a debate on this matter next week, before the House rises for the Easter recess.
Please, Deputy, questions only. Deputies were allowed to support the question.
The Ceann Comhairle seems to think he is doing his job as long as he allows all Members to get up and say something. We are trying to find out from the Taoiseach what is the position. This is not just a game.
The Taoiseach has already answered the question. The situation in Iraq was the subject of three Leaders' Questions this morning. I call Deputy Costello.
The Taoiseach put the proposition to the Opposition that after the Minister for Foreign Affairs has answered parliamentary questions, we may be satisfied and will not require a debate. I am merely replying by saying, given the new situation and a new phase in Iraq, a new debate is required in this House and the Taoiseach has some influence with Kofi Annan. That is the case I am making, a Cheann Comhairle. It is not just a perfunctory matter of standing up here and—
Deputy Kenny asked exactly the same question and the Taoiseach answered it. I call Deputy Costello.
The Immigration Bill 2002 which is on the Order Paper today, having passed through the Seanad, is now about to be the subject of major amendments. Already, there has been an amendment in relation to employment permits whereby a section has been taken out of this Bill and put into an employment permits Bill. On two separate occasions, this week and three weeks ago, I asked the Tánaiste whether those major amendments, which I understand have come before the Cabinet, would be circulated to Members prior to the commencement of Second Stage. She assured me they would be circulated. However, I have now received a note from the office of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform stating that he will outline the amendments during the Second Stage debate and that he also proposes to introduce further amendments some time later. This Bill has been around for 15 months and, although it has very little merit in itself—
Has the Deputy a question?
Where are the amendments I was promised in this House?
I believe the Bill will not be reached today but I understand Second Stage may start tomorrow – we have not yet reached Committee Stage – and the Minister will outline his position on the Bill.
I call Deputy Eamon Ryan.
My point is that this Bill has been radically transformed. It is no longer the Bill which went through the Seanad. We need to know the amendments if we are to have a meaningful Second Stage debate. We are being told the Minister will outline some of the amendments during his speech on Second Stage and, further down the line, will propose further amendments. The Bill has now been around for 15 months. Could the Government not get it right at some stage?
The Taoiseach has answered the Deputy's question. I call Deputy Eamon Ryan.
I wish to ask the Taoiseach—
Can we have a reply to Deputy Costello's substantive question?
On Second Stage, the Minister will outline the changes he is making to the original Bill. The changes from the original Bill in the Seanad will then be clear. Obviously, when the Bill proceeds to Committee Stage, it would be quite normal that other amendments might arise at that stage. It is appropriate to have a general debate on Second Stage initially, when the Minister will outline his changes to the Bill. The position has changed and developed as we moved along. It has changed very dramatically at EU level, in terms of what other countries are doing, within the past three months. It is in not in any way extraordinary that we should change our position on the matter.
The Taoiseach has really made my case in saying the Bill has changed dramatically over the past few months.
The Taoiseach has been repetitive in answering the same question twice. That has taken up time in the House which could otherwise be devoted to the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill. I call Deputy Eamon Ryan.
Effectively, we will have a new Bill. Could we not see the proposed changes in advance of Second Stage?
It is in accordance with long standing practice that, when a Bill comes before the House on Second Stage, the Minister outlines his proposed amendments or whatever, having regard to the earlier proceedings in the Seanad.
It is difficult for us to address the Bill on Second Stage if we do not know what it will contain. This is no way to do business.
If Deputies wish to change the way business is dealt with, there is a committee of the House for that purpose. I call Deputy Eamon Ryan.
Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle. When will the House have an opportunity to debate the strategic rail review published last week? It has huge implications for Deputies from every corner of this country and all sides of this House. I am sure we would greatly welcome an opportunity to debate it prior to the Government making decisions on the basis of the report.
Has the Deputy a question on promised legislation?
It is a key issue which relates to every aspect of legislation.
The Deputy should submit a question. We cannot have questions on the Order of Business about debates which Members desire. No doubt, every Member of this House would wish to have a debate on issues they consider appropriate. We cannot allow the Order of Business to be taken up with requests for debates.
This is an issue of national importance.
Yes. I suggest the Deputy submits a question on the matter. I call Deputy Kenny.
May I ask a question, a Cheann Comhairle? If the Order of Business is confined to asking about the legislative process, I can find that out by reading the newspapers. Surely there must be an opportunity for us to suggest to the Government that we debate a hugely important report which has just been published? I would like to hear the Taoiseach's view as to whether we should have a debate on it.
If the Deputy will resume his seat the Chair will explain, once again, what Standing Order 26 involves. It involves business on the Order Paper, the taking of business which has been promised, including legislation, either within or outside the House and the making of secondary legislation. It does not include asking the Taoiseach about debates on any subjects that Members might like to debate. That is usually discussed by the Whips.
There was a question to the Taoiseach as to whether we could have a debate on Iraq.
The party leaders get a certain latitude in terms of major issues in this House. If Members were allowed to ask about debates, we would be on the Order of Business until 7 p.m. I call Deputy Kenny.
I believe the Chair has clarified for Deputy Ryan that one can raise matters which are on the Order Paper in respect of discussions. In that context, when is it likely that Vote 30 in respect of the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources will be taken?
In relation to No. 37, Private Members' Business, in the name of Deputy Sargent and others, given that Osama bin Laden has issued renewed warnings of terrorist attacks; given that the consequences of the Iraqi situation may well lead to other terrorist attacks internationally; and given that the Attorney General has made a devastating case in respect of the court proceedings by Ireland against the United Kingdom for the closure of Sellafield, will the Taoiseach state when we are likely to have a discussion in this House on Sellafield, in terms of increased security measures there and the threat of international terrorism in respect of Irish citizens?
The Taoiseach on the legislation.
There are two separate ongoing processes, the OSPAR Convention which is moving and, in two months' time, in June, the UNCLOS case will come to court. If Deputy Kenny wishes to put down a question or to have a debate, that can be arranged and the Minister will outline the present situation.
Newspaper reports this morning indicated that the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, is to have discussions with the Dublin city manager concerning the height of the Dublin Port tunnel being raised at very considerable expense. My question relates to promised secondary legislation. Last month in this House, the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy McDaid, promised he would introduce regulations to restrict the height of trucks for compatibility with the existing height of the Dublin Port tunnel. Will the Taoiseach clarify the Government's intention in respect of the height of the Dublin Port Tunnel?
We cannot discuss what is in the legislation.
The Minister for State, Deputy McDaid, has said he will bring forward regulations.
Are we going to saw the tops of trucks?
On a point of order, will the Taoiseach clarify the Government's intention?
That is not a point of order. The Deputy asked about the regulations and the Taoiseach answered the question. The content of what might be in the regulations is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
I did not hear the Taoiseach's reply.
Deputy McDaid said he will introduce regulations. While it is not in order for me to answer the other part of the Deputy's question, the Deputy will receive an answer if she takes it up with the Minister for Transport.
You do not have an easy job, Cheann Chomhairle, but neither do we. The findings of the report Rent Supplement in the Private Rented Sector conducted by Threshold and Comhairle, state that some landlords do not accept people on rent supplement, particularly householders with children and asylum seekers.
Does the Deputy have a question about legislation?
This is relevant to legislation. When will the Housing (Private Rented Sector) Bill be brought before the House?
It will be brought before the House later this month.
What is the present location, condition and status of the Building Control Bill? What progress has been made on this Bill recently? The local appointments commission reform Bill will be interesting. What progress has been made on this? I know the expected publication date and all the other information on the paper, but there has to have been some progress in the intervening period. What progress has been made on the Employment Equality Bill since it was first indicated that it was to come before the House?
The Building Control Bill will provide for registration of titles of architects, building surveyors and quantity surveyors and amend and strengthen the powers of the local building control authorities under the Building Control Act 1990. The 55 heads of the Bill were approved by the Government on 6 November 2001. The Bill has been undergoing drafting since and is due in the summer.
Progress is slow in this case. Even the Minister for the Environment and Local Government is embarrassed.
Not at all, I have five Bills before the House. What more does the Deputy want?
Preliminary work on the drafting of heads for the Employment Equality Bill is currently being carried out and the heads of the Bill are expected in April 2003.
When will April 2003 be?
At the end of the month.
The summer.
Does the Taoiseach want to "phone a friend"?
The Government has approved the thrust of the draft heads of the public service management (recruitment and appointments) Bill and the legislation has been promised in the new partnership deal. The Bill has been drafted and should be ready for the autumn session.