Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Apr 2003

Vol. 565 No. 1

Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003 [ Seanad ] : Motion to Recommit.

Ms Burton

I move:

That Dáil Éireann, pursuant to Standing Order 128 of the Orders Relative to Public Business, directs that the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill, 2003 [Seanad] in whole be recommitted to a Committee of the whole House.

On behalf of the Labour Party, I wish to ask that the Bill, in its entirety, be recommitted. In the course of Committee Stage last week, I asked that the committee be suspended to allow Opposition parties to obtain legal advice on the new amendments introduced with little notice by the Minister for Finance. The Labour Party is objecting, in particular, to sections 13 and 14 of the Bill as it now stands. Those sections deal with the creation of Government committees and deliberations which will now be subject to certificates by Secretaries General of Departments. The extended definition of Government is a unique expansion of the notion of constitutional Government in Ireland. We will no longer be in a position to know the names of those in Government who are on these committees – we now understand it may be Ministers and Ministers of State, civil servants or advisers and any other person or body so designated. We are to have secret Government membership in this country.

Secretaries General will certify deliberations and we are not to know their title as provided for in this extended and expanded notion of Government. The Labour Party is concerned that we were not allowed to suspend the Committee Stage debate to seek legal advice on the matter. The only recourse now open to citizens and interested groups will be to petition Uachtarán na hÉireann with a view to asking her to meet with the Council of State to seek its advice on this new and dangerous expansion of the notion of Government which is completely absent from and foreign to our Constitution as it stands.

Mr. R. Bruton

I support the move to recommit this Bill. The Taoiseach tried to make a virtue of the fact that we had a 24 hour Committee Stage debate. The reason the debate went on for so long was that the Minister for Finance stonewalled on every constructive amendment put forward by the Opposition. This is, as Deputy Kenny said, deeply flawed legislation. It was not contained in the programme for Government or any of the manifestos. No mandate was secured for it and no consultation occurred about its content. The Information Commissioner was deliberately denied an opportunity to discuss it. There would have been no consultation but that the Oireachtas took matters into its own hands and, through the Committee on Finance and the Public Service, gave a small number of people the opportunity to raise concerns.

The Government is trying put through this legislation in a jackboot manner. The Bill is not, as the Government would try to make out, about better governance. It is solely about Ministers trying to escape the obligations under which they entered into Government, namely, that there would be an examination of the decisions it made after five years. That solemn piece of accountability was written into legislation. Now, with the examination opportunity drawing near, the Government wants to run away from its obligations. This is all about Ministers trying to save their hides. It is bad for citizens who should not have to sacrifice their right to information to protect weak-kneed Ministers who are unwilling to take their duties to the House and the public seriously.

Mr. Quinn

Hear, hear.

Mr. Boyle

As Green Party spokesperson, I support Deputy Burton's motion. Regardless of the time spent on this Bill, it is the quality of the scrutiny in which we have been allowed to participate that matters. We are now moving to Report Stage of this Bill but discussion on it has been nothing less than an exercise by Government to deny the opportunity for full and open scrutiny. The best example of that has already been illustrated by the very real constitutional concerns expressed by Opposition spokesperson on this Bill.

It was not good enough to be told by the Minister on Committee Stage that he had received advice from the Attorney General and was satisfied about the matter without Members having been told what that advice was. The failure to respond to the Opposition's request that the parliamentary legal adviser to the committee be made available diminishes our role as legislators. I ask you, a Cheann Comhairle, to ensure that such requests are responded to adequately by the Government and the appropriate legal officers.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has no control over such matters.

Mr. Boyle

I am not aware of any legitimate argument the Government could put forward in opposing this reasonable motion.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I, too, support the proposal to recommit this Bill. As I said earlier to the Taoiseach, this so-called amending legislation runs totally contrary to the ethos of the substantive Bill introduced in 1997. It pushes back the situation from best practice which has been acknowledged in other jurisdictions to the old days of secrecy and veiling over decision-making by Government.

The argument has been repeatedly made by the Minister and others that the existing legislation was an impediment to good government. At no time, despite the repeated challenges of Opposition Deputies, has a single instance been cited of how the Freedom of Information Act 1997 curtailed the processes of government. No evidence has been presented to stand up that particular claim. It is imperative this legislation be withdrawn even at this late hour. I join with Deputies in making that appeal.

This Government stands accused of exercising its power here to cover up the decision-making processes since 1997 when it was first returned to power. That is the reality and is what people believe. Earlier this morning, the Taoiseach remarked that he saw no reason to change things – he was speaking about the workings within his Department. He should apply the same response to the existing legislation. There is no need to change it. He should allow the 1997 Act to stand and the amending legislation should now be withdrawn.

Minister for Finance (Mr. McCreevy)

I do not agree.

Question put: "That the Bill be recommitted in its entirety under Standing Order 128(1)."

The Dáil divided by electronic means.

Mr. Stagg

To be consistent and as part of the Labour Party campaign to prevent the destruction of the Freedom of Information Act by the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats Government and the axing of the debate on all Stages, I, as a teller, insist on a vote by other than electronic means.

An Ceann Comhairle

As Deputy Stagg is a teller, he is entitled under Standing Order 69 to call a vote through the lobbies. The vote will take place in six minutes' time.

Question, "That the Bill be recommitted in its entirety under Standing Order 128(1)", again put.

Tá

Allen, Bernard.Boyle, Dan.Breen, James.Broughan, Thomas P.Bruton, Richard.Burton, Joan.Connaughton, Paul.Connolly, Paudge.Costello, Joe.Cowley, Jerry.Crawford, Seymour.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard J.English, Damien.Gilmore, Eamon.Gogarty, Paul.Gormley, John.Harkin, Marian.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael D.Howlin, Brendan.Kenny, Enda.Lynch, Kathleen.

McCormack, Padraic.McGrath, Finian.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Olivia.Morgan, Arthur.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Pattison, Seamus.Penrose, Willie.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Eamon.Ryan, Seán. Tá–continued

Sargent, Trevor.Sherlock, Joe.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.

Timmins, Billy.Twomey, Liam.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.

Níl

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Seamus.Browne, John.Callanan, Joe.Callely, Ivor.Carty, John.Cassidy, Donie.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Cregan, John.Cullen, Martin.Curran, John.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Ellis, John.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Fox, Mildred.Gallagher, Pat The Cope.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Hoctor, Máire.

Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Seamus.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McDowell, Michael.McEllistrim, Thomas.Martin, Micheál.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Peter.Power, Seán.Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Wilkinson, Ollie.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Durkan and Stagg; Níl, Deputies Hanafin and Moloney.

Question declared lost.