Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 27 May 2003

Vol. 567 No. 5

Leaders' Questions.

Mr. Kenny

Last weekend saw one of the rarest spectacles in Irish politics – the Fianna Fáil Party in full flight for cover, chameleon-like, led by the Taoiseach, followed by the electorate and all the parties in this House, including a substantial number from his own, on the issue of the reintroduction of third level fees. It says much for the style of leadership of the Taoiseach and for his management of serious political issues that he should publicly back the Minister for Education and Science on a number of occasions in previous weeks and indicate to this House and to the country at large that this matter would be brought to the Cabinet and a decision made there on the final recommendations of the Minister. That did not happen because it became obvious to the Government, both Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats, that this was wrong, that the electorate would not wear it and that the concern expressed by Fine Gael, Labour and other parties in the House had risen to a state where it would just not be acceptable.

The Government solved the political problem by finding €15 million, €12 million in the Tánaiste's Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and €3 million in the Department of Education and Science. The Government attempted to cloak this in the guise of concern for disadvantaged and under-resourced communities. It is a pity it would not show the same concern and the same urgency in attempting to solve other problems of the disadvantaged.

I suggest that the Taoiseach now instruct that an audit be carried out in each Government Department to see what other moneys are lying around there that could be used to deal with issues of disadvantaged, under-resourced communities and the underprivileged. This situation has brought about clarity. The Government cannot be trusted and its word cannot be taken. It is bereft of political leadership on serious issues that concern people.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Kenny is right that the Government successfully dealt with the issue of education for the disadvantaged at the weekend.

Mr. Timmins

I do not think Deputy Kenny said that.

The Taoiseach

Unfortunately over the years—

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

The Taoiseach is trying to keep his crumbling coalition together.

The Taoiseach

—not much interest was paid to putting money into educating the disadvantaged.

Mr. Rabbitte

Not by the current Government.

Mr. D. Ahern

There was a lot of talk about it.

The Taoiseach

Up to 1997 when I took over—

A Deputy

What happened after 1997?

The Taoiseach

—£500,000 was all that was spent and we brought it up to €26 million before the announcement of the past few days.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Members on both sides of the House to afford the same courtesy to the Taoiseach as was afforded to Deputy Kenny when he submitted his question.

Mr. Rabbitte

He has the same fascination with Manchester United winning the UEFA Cup.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach, without interruption, please.

The Taoiseach

This package combines substantial improvements in the level and coverage of maintenance grants for those on low to middle incomes. A total of 56,000 students will benefit from the package, 11,000 of them for the first time, which is the highest number that ever benefited from an initiative on the first time. An extra 4,000 students will no longer be required to pay the €670 student service charge. It may help more and more people in disadvantaged communities to get an opportunity to enter third level education. Time will tell but given recent experience following the moves we have taken in the past few years I think that will be the case.

The package combines substantial improvements in the level and coverage of the maintenance grant for those on low to moderate incomes, while increasing the level of top-up grants. In addition, it will take 4,000 students out of the service charge area. There is also a 15% increase in the level of maintenance grant, which will provide a realistic increase in the level of support to meet the basic living expenses of students from families with low to moderate incomes. Students from these families will receive an increase of €377 over the current rate and that will be extremely beneficial. There has also been a significant extension in the coverage of the maintenance grant eligibility – the full rate of grant will be extended from the current threshold of €28,000 to €32,000, thus, increasing the number of eligible students by more than 5,000.

The action group's report on access to third level education recommended the introduction of top-up grants at special rates for those in the lowest income groups and that has also happened. The personal rate of unemployment benefit and assistance is the State-recognised level of support for this purpose. All in all, this has been, as the Minister wished it to be, a significant improvement in the levels of assistance to help those people in disadvantaged communities.

Mr. Howlin

Twelve million euro.

The Taoiseach

As it is now May, it is well in time for those students who are sitting exams or others who might return to third level next year. I wish to thank Members of the House for their interest in and support for this issue.

Mr. Kenny

I asked the Taoiseach if he would carry out an audit of Departments to see what other spare moneys are lying around. The Taoiseach's reply makes a complete mockery of everything the Government has stated it stands for in the area of disadvantage and underprivilege. The Taoiseach should tell that to the seven severely disabled girls in St. Vincent's special school on the Navan Road, who got a letter yesterday stating that there is nowhere for them to go in September. What about the cases where respite care services have been withdrawn because of cuts to the disadvantaged? What about the non-implementation of the educational welfare services? What about the €5 million scheme to combat drop-out levels in education that has been cut? What about the RAPID programme that has been axed completely? What about the thousands of primary school children being educated in prefabs and dilapidated buildings that the Ministers opposite told parents would be improved or replaced? What about the cutbacks in the home help services right across the country?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's minute has concluded.

Mr. Kenny

What about the 5,000 cases cut in community employment schemes, many of which were for special needs children? The Taoiseach is spending €50 million on a jet and €20 million on media spin doctors.

Mr. J. Brady

He is helping the less well off.

Mr. Kenny

That amount of money would have dealt with the issue of third level education for those from disadvantaged communities for a number of years.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should conclude as he has gone well over the minute allocated for this question.

Mr. Kenny

Will the Taoiseach carry out an audit of those matters? Will he cease spending money on useless schemes and spin doctors? Will he explain also why he has hung a decent man from County Meath out to dry after telling him on a dozen occasions that he backed him? He gave him his full backing, with the authority of the Office of the Taoiseach, and then dropped him over the cliff because it was a political problem and he was able to sort it out.

The Taoiseach

It might not be possible to answer all those issues in a minute.

Mr. Howlin

That will be a change.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to answer without interruption, please.

The Taoiseach

I can say, however, that 2,276 schools will benefit under the targeted support package for disadvantaged children. There will be an allocation of 3,450 primary teachers and 1,225 teachers at post-primary level. The pupil-teacher ratio at primary level has been reduced to 19:1. Primary teacher training places have increased by 288%, while the pupil-teacher ratio for appointment purposes at second level has been reduced to 18:1.

Mr. Kenny

And a partridge in a pear tree.

The Taoiseach

Improved funding is being provided for the voluntary school sector, with 3,500 special needs teachers, and a reform of the State examination system to provide greater transparency for students. There have been enormous increases in a host of other areas, including the school building programme, the highest ever at first and second level.

Mr. Kenny

What about the disabled girls?

The Taoiseach

Home-school-community liaison services are being provided for all primary and secondary schools, which represents an increase of over 100%.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Stagg, the leader of the Fine Gael Party submitted this question.

The Taoiseach

I could go on for another minute. There are 19,000 additional students in full-time, third level education and part-time enrolments are up by 41%. The national office for equity is being established to facilitate the achievement of targets for increased participation for students from disadvantaged communities. As I said already, the top-up grants are being introduced.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach's minute has concluded.

The Taoiseach

All these issues are targeted at the disadvantaged and I congratulate the Minister for Education and Science for his ongoing work in this area.

Mr. Durkan

Congratulations, Noel.

(Interruptions).

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

The Taoiseach will let him hold on to his job for a bit longer.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow Deputy Rabbitte to speak without interruption.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Minister for Education and Science is really in trouble now. Yesterday, the Taoiseach devoted his soundbite to berating the Labour Party for stopping the reintroduction of third level fees on working families. The entire country knows where the Labour Party stood on the issue but what the country wants to know is where the Taoiseach stood. Nobody has any idea where he stands.

Mr. Durkan

They never do.

Mr. Rabbitte

Did he stand with the Minister for Education and Science, whom he has just congratulated, or did he side with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell? I think we deserve an answer. Apparently, there are people elected to this House who, in the Taoiseach's own elegant phrase, do not care two hells about disadvantage. I watched the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, on "Questions and Answers", claiming that the Fianna Fáil backbenchers stopped the reintroduction of third level fees. Does that mean that the Taoiseach is referring to his own backbenchers as not giving two hells about disadvantage or does he disagree with comical Willie, who even has the moustache to go with it?

An Ceann Comhairle

I would ask the Deputy to refer to Ministers by their titles.

Mr. Rabbitte

Is the Taoiseach aware that his backbenchers – with the exception of the two awaiting promotion, Deputies Ardagh and Carey – almost had a collective breakdown with all the credit the Progressive Democrats got for stopping this madcap idea? Given the Taoiseach's phoney concern for the disadvantaged, will he repeal the €36 million of cuts that the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Dempsey—

Mr. N. Dempsey

It is not as phoney as the Deputy's.

Mr. Rabbitte

I do not think the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, should intervene because the next time he has a good idea the Tánaiste will reach into her purse, give him money for sweets and send him to the shop. That is about his standing.

Mr. N. Dempsey

It would be very nice if the Deputy came up with a good idea, with his socialist wing.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, to allow Deputy Rabbitte to continue without interruption.

Mr. Rabbitte

To return to the Taoiseach's phoney concern for the disadvantaged, does it mean he will repeal the €36 million in cuts made by the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, last September? Some €6 million was cut from school retention fees, €5 million on the programme to encourage socio-economically disadvantaged chidden into third level education and €3.8 million on the back-to-education scheme. Deputy Kenny referred to St. Vincent's school in the Taoiseach's constituency, where there was a meeting of distraught parents last night. A fraction of the money the Tánaiste found in her drawer would deal with that situation.

Ms Burton

Absolutely.

Mr. Rabbitte

Where does the Taoiseach stand on disadvantage now?

The Taoiseach

I stand to make sure that disadvantaged people have an opportunity of getting into third level education, if that is their wish. It is not a question of giving them money for sweets. That might have been the policy of Governments down the years but it is not the policy of this Government.

Mr. Stagg

Fianna Fáil has been in government most of that time.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.

The Taoiseach

We have given an enormous increase in resources – a 94% increase in the overall budget – in just a short number of years. This has been designed to apply right across all levels of education but particularly in the area of disadvantage, to provide smaller primary classes and extra special needs teachers, with better buildings, equipment and facilities in primary, secondary and tertiary education.

Ms McManus

The Taoiseach should answer the question.

The Taoiseach

A particular difficulty was highlighted at third level, where we needed to improve the position. I have already answered that. As I have already stated, in every area of education the House would not argue that the provision of 3,500 additional places for special needs assistants in classroom is a pittance. It has been a very important expansion of educational disadvantage programmes, along with Giving Children an Even Break at primary level, the school completion programme at post-primary level and the extension of the home-school community liaison programme for all primary and post-primary schools.

I suggest to Deputy Rabbitte that any audit or examination would demonstrate very clearly that this Government has been committed every year, even this year in more difficult times, to providing money in a strong and dedicated way to help with educational disadvantage. We will continue to do as we should do. We have set up the programmes and we now have to put in the people and the effort. Undoubtedly, it is a costly process – Irish education is costing €5.6 billion. It is not very long since the figure passed the €1 billion mark and only a short period since it passed the €3 billion mark. Deputy Noel Dempsey will correct me if I am wrong, but only a few years ago there were only 150 special needs teachers in the Irish educational system. Now there are 3,500.

I am genuinely glad we have had a debate on this matter over the last few weeks. It has given us an opportunity to focus on the forgotten area of educational disadvantage. The announcement by the Minister was—

A Deputy

The Government is there long enough.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach, without interruption.

The Taoiseach

The announcement by the Government was a follow-on from what we had done in first and second level education. There are people in this House who know more than me about disadvantaged education as they taught in that area and would know that I have always been committed to it. Now, we have an opportunity to follow on into third level from what we did in first and second level education. Five years ago, the expenditure on disability and disadvantage at third level was only €500,000 out of a total spend of €2.9 billion. Now, at least, we are beginning to spend respectable resources – I will not say it is too much – having increased the figure from €26 million prior to this issue. I am very glad we have achieved that.

Mr. Rabbitte

Do we have to wait 30 years for the release of State papers to know where the Taoiseach stands on this issue? Was he for it or against it? Can he not even answer the question now? As regards the €12 million which Deputy Harney discovered in her bottom drawer when she went to St. Luke's, is the Taoiseach aware that one of his own backbenchers spoke in the House, the week before last, in connection with the savaging of the community employment scheme in the Minister's Department and the stopping of recruitment for the job initiative scheme? If the Minister had €12 million lying in her bottom drawer, why could she not devote it to the cuts in her own Department affecting the most disadvantaged communities? This is robbing one section of the disadvantaged for another section, in order to get the Taoiseach's Minister off his own petard, where he had impaled himself. Will the Taoiseach tell the House from where the €42 million is coming? The Minister for Finance had stated that no more money would be provided for education. From where is this €42 million supposed to come? Why could Deputy Harney not devote that €12 million windfall to tackling real disadvantage in her own area, where communities are being ravaged because of the undermining of the community employment scheme? What does "windfall" mean? Are there other windfalls around the various Departments?

The Taoiseach

We have continued to ensure the emphasis on community employment programmes—

A Deputy

That is a joke.

(Interruptions).

Mr. S. Ryan

The Taoiseach should ask his own backbenchers.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies should allow the Taoiseach to speak. Deputy Rabbitte is the only leader of the Labour Party and we are on Leaders' Questions.

The Taoiseach

We have continued to put in extraordinary resources and will continue to do so. Priority has been given to the areas of drugs task forces and child care service provision, including significant grants from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Disadvantaged areas have also been supported by the new RAPID programme for the BMW region. Where there are some difficulties, they have been highlighted. The budget in the social economy area supports the development of enterprise, into which resources have been put. Deputy Harney has followed a consistent programme with less resources than she previously had. Any additional resources picked up in her budget or any other budget have gone towards targeting disadvantage.

Deputy Rabbitte can be assured that the resources provided from that Vote and from the work in which the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, was also involved with Global Crossing Limited will assist the addition for the remainder of this year and the full amount will be provided in the Estimates for next year. All that being said, the fact is an additional 56,000 people will now have an opportunity, many for the first time, of better third level education. I have no doubt the House approves of that.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Is the Taoiseach aware that a number of health boards are now reporting serious overspends in regard to the first quarter of this year to 31 March, despite the imposition of severe and harsh cutbacks across the whole range of services? Is he aware, to give but one example, that the North-Eastern Health Board, at its meeting yesterday, reported a variance €3.25 million from budget for the first three months of the year to 31 March? That represents an excess of 2.9% on the provision for that period. When the pay element is removed, the figure grows to 6.26%.

Is the Taoiseach aware that, in answer to questions from this Deputy, the chief executive officer of that health board stated clearly that further cuts will be needed in the areas of care for the elderly and acute hospital services, so that the board can meet the Department's demand for a break-even position by the end of this year? He also acknowledged that further difficulties for patients and clients would be inevitable. The chief executive officer stated that, while every effort would be made to reduce the hardship and inconvenience which would be suffered, there was no question but that the board would have to ensure that further cuts would be imposed in these areas.

How can the Taoiseach possibly justify a continuation of the policy of cuts which are already hurting and harming the lives of the most disadvantaged and marginalised within our communities? What level of cutbacks does he believe will be acceptable to the elderly, the physically disabled and the mentally handicapped? Already, we have a situation where 85,000 hours of home help have been taken away this year in the North-Eastern Health Board area.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's time has expired.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

However, in the first quarter there is already an overspend in excess of €429,000. In acute hospital services, how can the Taoiseach justify a situation where a chief executive officer had to report to board members that activity in the board's acute hospitals is ahead of the service level planned and, therefore, remedial measures are being taken to rectify the situation?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ó Caoláin has gone well beyond his time.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

More people presenting themselves for hospital care will now be turned away. That is an outrageous situation. What steps will the Taoiseach take to address it?

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to resume his seat and allow the Taoiseach to reply.

The Taoiseach

I am aware of some difficulties in some of the hospitals. Back in January, when the Minister for Health and Children received almost €1 billion in extra resources, he asked the various health boards and other hospitals – the Dublin teaching hospitals – to put forward their service plans. Some of those hospitals had overruns from a previous year under the 1996 legislation and that became a first call on the figures for this year. They then had to manage that within their budget because, as the Minister said, there would not be Supplementary Estimates this year. That has created some difficulties. I am not aware of the details of what the North-Eastern Health Board stated yesterday. They signed up to their service plan for this year in February, which is three months ago. They knew what the service plan would be and they received sufficient resources to deal with it. The Minister and his officials have been dealing with the various health boards and chief executive officers on these issues. In January-February agreement was reached on the figures and service plans, which is the procedure that is in operation. If there are difficulties the issue should be taken up with the Minister's officials or the health board who agreed the plans.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

May I point out to the Taoiseach that the members of the North-Eastern Health Board did not adopt the service plan. It was introduced by the chief executive officer and the Minister for Health and Children. Those who did not sign up to the plan included the Taoiseach's own party members on the North-Eastern Health Board who could not accept the per capita allocation in the north east, recognising it was totally and absolutely inadequate for the board to provide the services which are expected of it. Does the Taoiseach understand that the strictures of his Department on the boards will ensure there will be ever deeper cuts in the whole area of home help hours, respite and day care and a whole host of services for the most vulnerable in society? He claimed in recent days to be the champion of the disadvantaged. How does he expect these steps, already taken over the first three months and now to be expanded in the coming nine months, will in any way address the needs of the disadvantaged in our society? Will the Taoiseach explain, as other Deputies have sought to find out, how at the eleventh hour, the Government was magically able to provide essential moneys to address one area of need, yet people who are queuing up the length and breadth of this jurisdiction for hospital services and are in need of real community-based care, includ ing home help, respite care and residential care, cannot get an extra euro from the Government to meet their needs this year? These people deserve an answer from the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy's analysis is entirely wrong because the health Estimate for this year was increased by more than 12%, receiving more than 34% of the entire additional expenditure for this year. The full cost of the additional excellent health workers, whose contribution I acknowledge, has been included in this year's Estimate. Of the additional 709 beds, more than 500 have been opened and the remainder are also costed into this year's figures.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Taoiseach has played that one out.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must allow the Taoiseach to reply without interruption.

The Taoiseach

Due to the hard work and the resources provided in the past few years, there is almost a 25% increase in the number of patients being treated. To try to give another impression is not factual because expenditure for the Department of Health and Children is being monitored and controlled. Given that resources have been increased to €9 billion—

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Every detail I gave is factual.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ó Caoláin, please.

The Taoiseach

—there must be monitoring and controls in place. The Minister who is committed to this must try to work within the resources available to him, which is what he has been doing. He agreed service plans this year, which are being implemented. I cannot give a blow by blow account of each of them for every month because I do not have that information. There is a process in place whereby the health boards can discuss the issues with the Department of Health and Children.