Denis Naughten
Question:53 Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for Finance if he will review the NDP in view of the spatial strategy; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13730/03]
Other Questions. - National Development Plan.
The National Development Plan (NPD) has balanced regional development as one of its core objectives. The national spatial strategy (NSS) provided for a strategic framework for this objective. Because the strategy was not available when the national development plan was prepared, it was explicitly provided that the mid-term review of the plan would take account of the national spatial strategy.
Each of the operational programmes is currently subject to independent evaluation and results will become known at the end of August. The results will feed into a high level strategic evaluation of the national development plan which is being conducted by a team led by the ESRI. The NDP mid-term evaluation will focus on common, cross-cutting issues arising from the evaluations of the operational programmes and will assess whether investments across, between and within the different programmes are appropriately aligned towards the achievement of overall national development plan objectives.
When the evaluation is completed, the Government will take decisions on any required changes to the strategic focus of the plan and its financial provisions. These decisions will take account of the evaluations, the budgetary outlook and other relevant considerations, including the national spatial strategy.
I thank the Minister for his reply. He made an error at the beginning when he spoke about "activities" in relation to the national development plan, but then corrected himself by saying "objectives". Is it not the case that there is a big difference between the activities under the national development plan and the objectives under the plan as far as targeting and focusing on delivering a spatial strategy is concerned? Will he not agree that Dublin city, more than anywhere else in the country, needs decentralisation and the development of the regions to try to take pressure off it? I put it to the Minister that currently the designation of a hub town under the spatial strategy is about as useful as being designated a hubcap. For example, under the NDP as it now stands, the NRA is not prepared to invest in regional centres in the midlands, including Athlone, Mullingar and Tullamore. There are no plans to put in place investment for the national secondary roads connecting these three towns. There is no rail service connecting Castlebar and Ballina which have a state-of-the-art rail line. Will the Minister give an assurance that the focus will return to the basis of the spatial strategy when the NDP is reviewed?
When the mid-term review of the national development plan is completed some adjustments will possibly take place. It will certainly take account of the national spatial strategy. Regarding the level of activity under the national development plan, never in the history of the State has there been such a level of activity. In the operational programme relating to economic infrastructure, the cumulative amount of money to be spent by the end of the year will be approximately €900 million more than the expenditure profile would have allowed when I launched the plan. There are legitimate questions to be asked in some areas as to value for money but it is also true to say that construction inflation was very high during the period of the plan. I am pleased it has evened off as a result of more competition in that whole area. The level of activity going forward is on a scale never before undertaken in the history of the State. If we can keep spending on capital infrastructure at 5% of our gross national product, one will see a massive change in the whole face of Ireland in a period of five years or so.
The Minister is talking about some adjustments. Is it not the case that the activities taking place at the moment are into and out of Dublin and that under the proposals as they now stand, the only major infrastructural projects going ahead are ones that will be financially viable under public private partnerships? They require masses of population to facilitate that. Basically, the policy is now regional apartheid. In reply to a question yesterday to the Minister for Transport on capital projects under the NDP, there was just one sentence out of a two page reply relating to regional services and the development of regional facilities. Everything is into and out of Dublin, which continues to put the focus on Dublin and contradicts the spatial strategy.
I am sure the Deputy passes through the county more than I do. I am sure he has travelled through County Leitrim in the past year or two. The rural renewal initiative which I introduced has had an enormous impact in that county.
It has an enormous impact in Longford also.
The Deputy should consult the former Deputy, Gerry Reynolds, who has a pretty good impact on Longford as well.
They might not roll out the red carpet for the Minister.
I was in Longford last year prior to the general election. Longford town reminded me of the Klondyke, there was so much activity at the time.
The Deputy will be aware that it is not possible to do everything at once. Even if we had unlimited resources it would not be possible. The national development plan, coupled with the national spatial strategy, is a focused approach to how things will be done from now on. I take on board what the Deputy said about decentralisation. I am sure I will please some parts of the country, and displease many more, when the final decisions are made.
When will that be?
Soon. In the future.
In the context of the national development plan review, is the Minister aware of the announcement made at the week-end by his colleague, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, that he proposes to sell off the Dublin Port Tunnel and the M1 to the National Pension Reserve Fund? Is that part of the review of the national development plan and, if so, will it require fresh legislation to take these steps which were announced extensively by the Minister at the week-end? I am anxious to know if he can sell the Dublin Port tunnel to the National Pension Reserve Fund – Deputy Bruton and I raised the issue on previous occasions – particularly in the context of the height problem for most of the lorries using the port. I know size is an issue at times for the Minister, Deputy Brennan. Has this issue been addressed or is it just another kite? The announcements relating to the sale of the Dublin Port tunnel and the M1 were very interesting. Was the Minister party to these deliberations?
The Minister is so energetic that I have difficulty in keeping up with his announcements. Some time ago he discussed with me an innovative approach he was thinking of adopting regarding the port tunnel, the M1 and other motorways. I signalled to him and his predecessors that one possible approach would be to utilise the assets that have been constructed to fund other projects. The Minister is considering this. It does not necessarily mean that he will involve the National Pensions Reserve Fund.
That is what he said.
He is considering it, but he will also consider the involvement of the NDFA. I am sure many non-State financial institutions would be willing to offer a good deal in terms of their involvement in this area. The Minister is attempting to utilise some of the assets at his disposal to trigger other moneys which can then be used to add to his infrastructure programme. This would not form part of the national development plan review. The Minister is concerned with getting additional funding outside of his normal budgetary process and using it to fund other works throughout the country.
Given that the NRA has overspent its allocation of funding by €0.5 billion in each of the years 2001 and 2002, that the cost of the NDP roads programme has increased from €6 billion to €14 billion and that the Railway Procurement Agency is providing a metro system that will cost six times more than a system of similar type and length in Spain, does the Minister have, or would he seek to have, powers to control the over-spending by agencies involved in providing the national infrastructure?
Deputy Richard Bruton has a particular interest in evaluation and capital appraisal techniques. My Department also has an appraisal unit and there are criteria and guidelines which other Departments should use when assessing projects. That includes the NRA, which comes under the remit of the Department of Transport. My Department is also involved at various stages on the question of evaluation.
Many of the problems on over-expenditure on infrastructure projects are rooted in the bad initial cost assessments. I read recently that in proposing projects, many bodies and companies deliberately understate the projected cost because of concern that they would not be attempted if the true estimated cost was disclosed.
I have noted the extraordinary projected construction costs for the metro by comparison with the position in other countries. The person from Madrid at the centre of this issue has become famous and people from all parts of the country wish to visit him. If he were to charge fees he would make a fortune. I know the person within the Government framework who discovered him.
The person in Madrid is an old style public servant who expects to get value for money by following procedures that were in place in this and other countries, namely keeping a tight control on costs, cutting out the rubbish about consultants, evaluations and so on and getting a bang for his buck. Perhaps we should return to some of these old ways.
The Minister puts me in mind of a former constituency colleague and a colleague of his who said he was suspicious of anyone who had "major" or "superior" in his or her title.
Was he not right?
Any review that includes a high level group and an integrated strategy makes me suspicious. Does the Minister regret that the national spatial strategy was not introduced before the national development plan, in other words, that the national development plan would be used to deliver the spatial objectives? Will he outline who is guarding the guardians? If he is so suspicious that evaluators put a good gloss on projects, would he not consider asking the Comptroller and Auditor General to examine the issue involved?
I am concerned about the under-statement of projected costs, not the evaluation of ongoing project costs.
It is the same difference. Would the Minister consider asking the Comptroller and Auditor General to become involved at an earlier stage to look at the tendering process? His office takes an old style, solid, value for money approach.
On the question of selling the port tunnel, is it not the case that there is an EU directive which stipulates that non-tolling routes must be provided in cases where tolling is imposed?
I am not an expert on that aspect of EU law. When the national development plan was being compiled, work on the national spatial strategy was ongoing. It was clear that if we waited for the completion of the strategy, the national development plan would not be launched on time. The national spatial strategy was launched some months ago while the NDP was launched in 1999.
The Comptroller and Auditor General plays a very important role but we cannot ask him to scrutinise every financial project.
Too often, the Comptroller and Auditor General has to examine corpses instead of bodies that could be maintained.
Written answers follow Adjournment Debate.