Order of Business.

The Taoiseach:

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 11a, Protection of the Environment Bill 2003 [Seanad] – financial resolution; No. 11b, motion re membership of committee; No. 20, Arts Bill 2002 – Report and Final Stages (resumed); No. 21 – Opticians (Amendment) Bill 2002 [Seanad] – Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; and No. 22 – Houses of the Oireachtas Commission Bill 2002 – Order for Report, Report and Final Stages.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. and business shall be interrupted not later than 10 p.m.; Nos. 11a and 11b shall be decided without debate; the proceedings on the resumed Report and Final Stages of No. 20 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 6 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism; the proceedings on the Report and Final Stages of No. 21 shall be taken today and shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Health and Children; and Private Members' business shall be No. 34 – motion re public services (resumed), shall be taken at 7 p.m. or on the conclusion of No. 21, whichever is the later, and shall be brought to a conclusion after 1 hour 42 minutes.

An Ceann Comhairle:

There are five proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 11a and 11b agreed to?

Mr. R. Bruton:

I cannot agree to this. Essentially, the Minister is proposing that he will have power to make charges in respect of a whole range of activities regarding the environment. The Government is proposing that this would go through without debate, having guillotined the debate yesterday on the substantive Bill with regard to the protection of the environment. As the House is aware, the role of local authority members is being removed and, in future, managers will decide on these charges – there will no longer be representation associated with the taxation involved. Now, it is proposed that the financial resolution to make this possible will be passed without debate in this House. This is not the right way to do our business and I cannot support it.

Mr. Rabbitte:

I also oppose this particular item which concerns taxation without debate. The motion on the Order Paper effectively enables the Minister, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, to reintroduce a form of rates. The notion that this House cannot debate this matter is unacceptable. Only last Friday, the Government Chief Whip suffered the embarrassment of being able to provide only 11 Deputies in the House, after she had been summoned from wherever she was. To propose to the House that we should now pass a major resolution of this nature without debate is unacceptable. We must take adequate time to debate the implications of this reversal of the decision of the then Fianna Fáil majority Government in 1977.

Mr. Sargent:

The proposal to deal with No. 11a is also totally unacceptable to the Green Party. It comes on the heels of an already discredited Bill which is anti-democratic and pro-vested interests. This measure is ill-considered as it came very late in the day and the schedule had to be revised to try to slip it in. I am not sure if there was an attempt to hide it by bringing it on to the schedule at such a late stage. However, it is certainly unacceptable because it needs to be more fully debated and severely amended.

Mr. Morgan:

I concur with the views of previous speakers that this Bill will have very far-reaching effects on all aspects of local government in this State, including funding. In my view, sufficient time has not been given to debate and discussion on the Bill. The financial resolution should also be fully debated.

The Taoiseach:

In accordance with normal procedure, this motion must be moved before Committee Stage commences. Deputies can air their views and debate the matter on Committee Stage. Procedurally, the motion must be moved before Committee Stage which starts tomorrow.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with Nos. 11a and 11b agreed to.”

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Andrews, Barry.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Niall.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Seamus.Browne, John.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Collins, Michael.Coughlan, Mary.Cregan, John.Curran, John.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Gallagher, Pat The Cope.

Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Hoctor, Máire.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Seamus.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McEllistrim, Thomas.McGuinness, John.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Mulcahy, Michael.Nolan, M. J.Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Dea, Willie. O'Donnell, Liz.

Tá–continued

O'Donoghue, John.O'Donovan, Denis.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Peter.Power, Seán.

Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Wilkinson, Ollie.Woods, Michael.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Boyle, Dan.Breen, James.Breen, Pat.Broughan, Thomas P.Bruton, Richard.Burton, Joan.Connaughton, Paul.Connolly, Paudge.Crawford, Seymour.Cuffe, Ciarán.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard J.English, Damien.Enright, Olwyn.Ferris, Martin.Gilmore, Eamon.Gogarty, Paul.Gormley, John.Gregory, Tony.Harkin, Marian.Hayes, Tom.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael D.Hogan, Phil.Kehoe, Paul.McCormack, Padraic.McGinley, Dinny.

McGrath, Finian.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Olivia.Morgan, Arthur.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Murphy, Gerard.Neville, Dan.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Pattison, Seamus.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Ryan, Eamon.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Sherlock, Joe.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Twomey, Liam.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle:

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 20 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 21 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Private Members' Business agreed? Agreed.

Mr. R. Bruton:

We read today in the newspapers, courtesy of Deputy Jim O'Keeffe, that nine tribunal lawyers are now millionaires as a result of the tribunal operations. On the promised list of legislation we have the commission of investigations Bill, No. 100, in which the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has proposed bringing forward new systems—

An Ceann Comhairle:

Could we have quiet, please, for Deputy Richard Bruton?

A Deputy:

Hear, hear.

Mr. R. Bruton:

Have the heads of this Bill been brought to Government? People will be scandalised by the fact that we now have nine tribunal millionaires. We need to have more cost-effective systems for investigation of issues of public interest. It is important that the Taoiseach bring forward this legislation as a matter of urgency.

Mr. J. Higgins:

It is extraordinary. There is a tribunal—

An Ceann Comhairle:

Does the Deputy have a question relating to the legislation?

Mr. J. Higgins:

Yes, I do. The tribunals are now making more millionaires than they are investigating.

An Ceann Comhairle:

A question, Deputy, on the legislation.

Mr. J. Higgins:

I hope to see—

An Ceann Comhairle:

The Deputy is passing information to the House and this is not appropriate at this stage of the Order of Business.

Mr. J. Higgins:

On this issue, the Government could do with a bit of information. How long is this to go on? What does the Taoiseach envisage in terms of the commission of investigations Bill? We are in favour of this investigation, but how can it deal with this scandalous development of barristers becoming millionaires at the taxpayers' expense?

An Ceann Comhairle:

We cannot have a debate on the contents of the Bill.

The Taoiseach:

It is an urgent Bill. The heads of the Bill are completed and the Bill is almost drafted. I hope to have it circulated before the end of this session, although we may not achieve that.

An Ceann Comhairle:

Deputy Rabbitte.

Mr. Rabbitte:

I defer to Deputy McManus.

Ms McManus:

I want to ask the Taoiseach about the failure of the Government to publish the Hanly report. It is now clear from yesterday's meeting—

An Ceann Comhairle:

I am sorry, Deputy, but that issue was dealt with during Leaders' Questions by two leaders this morning.

Ms McManus:

The issue I am raising was not dealt with. It was agreed in this House, by the Tánaiste, that we would have a debate on three reports. We are now in difficulties because it is clear that the Hanly report will not be published until July. Indications were given by the Government when this was raised by me in the public arena that the Dáil would be recalled to have this debate, which is necessary for the future of hospital services across the country. Is it now the intention of the Government to recall the Dáil to ensure that we have this debate? The Taoiseach referred this morning to the significance of the Hanly report, yet his intention is to withhold the report's publication until after the Dáil rises so that there can be no possibility of having a debate in the national Parliament on an issue of such importance.

Mr. Callely:

That is not true.

The Taoiseach:

I assure the Deputy that the Hanly report will not be implemented in full during the summer. I explained the position of the report this morning. The steering group finished its work last week. It is endeavouring to sign off with all the bodies, but it has not yet signed off with the IMO. The draft memorandum is being prepared and will come to Government and be published soon. The debate will take place on Friday week in the House.

Mr. Rabbitte:

That does not include the Hanly report. We got a commitment from the acting head of Government, the Tánaiste, that there would be a debate on the three reports in this House. Then the spin doctors fed out a story to the media that the Dáil would be recalled if necessary.

An Ceann Comhairle:

Deputy, your colleague has already raised the issue.

Mr. Rabbitte:

The publication of two reports has been forced, but the third report is being deliberately delayed and concealed in the Department of Health and Children, and the Taoiseach has not said that we are going to have a debate. What is the answer? Is there any point in getting a commitment from the head of the Government that there will be a debate in the House?

An Ceann Comhairle:

The issue has been raised and the Taoiseach has responded.

Ms McManus:

He has not answered the question.

An Ceann Comhairle:

The Chair cannot allow a debate on these issues.

Mr. Rabbitte:

He has gone back on what the Government committed to earlier.

Mr. G. Mitchell:

On a less serious matter, following two defeats at soccer and one at Gaelic, is it intended to carry out an inquiry into the performance of Oireachtas footballers?

Mary Coughlan:

We need more women playing.

A Deputy:

We have enough women playing.

Mr. R. Bruton:

A right of reply for Deputy Deenihan.

Mr. Sargent:

This is a matter of promised legislation which is quite historic in context, given that it is nearly 25 years since the publication of the Costello committee report, which forms the basis for the charities Bill. Given the amount of cutbacks in CE schemes, it is becoming more vital than ever that we regulate charities. Is priority being given to the charities Bill after it has languished for 25 years?

The Taoiseach:

The heads of the Bill are expected early next year. The Bill has been brought forward from 2005 following requests from people in the House to do this.

Mr. R. Bruton:

It will come as no surprise to mobile phone users that Ireland is 50% more expensive in terms of mobile phone costs than the rest of Europe. What is happening with the radio communications Bill, which promises liberalisation and a keener, more competitive environment?

The Taoiseach:

The heads of the Bill are expected later in the summer, but it will probably be next year before the Bill comes before the House.

Ms O'Sullivan:

We have only a little over two weeks to sit and the education for persons with disabilities Bill has not yet been published. When is it intended to publish it? Will we have time to give it some public scrutiny in the Oireachtas before the summer break?

The Taoiseach:

I do not think it will be taken before the summer, but I hope we can get it published in the next few weeks.

Ms O'Sullivan:

There has been a commitment over three terms of the Dáil.

An Ceann Comhairle:

Sorry, Deputy, the question has been dealt with. We cannot have a debate on these questions.

Ms O'Sullivan:

It has been on the programme for three terms. This is a failure to fulfil commitments. It is necessary that this be debated, particularly as there are no services for many people at the moment.

An Ceann Comhairle:

We cannot have a debate on the issue.

Ms O'Sullivan:

It would be good if promises were kept.

An Ceann Comhairle:

The Deputy submitted her question, which was in order, the Taoiseach replied and now we have to move on to Deputy Gilmore.

Mr. Gilmore:

On Sunday the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government indicated on the radio that it was the Government's intention to amend the electoral legislation to increase spending limits in general election campaigns. Yesterday the Minister of State replied to a Dáil question by stating that to that end he had requested a report from the Public Offices Commission on the amendments that might be made to the electoral legislation. Is it appropriate for the Government to seek a report from the Public Offices Commission? Can I have an assurance that if the commission is to make a report on this matter, it will be made directly to the House rather than to any individual Minister or Department or to one side of the House? The issue of electoral legislation is one that affects us all and I do not think the Government should unilaterally receive a report from the Public Offices Commission in this matter.

The Taoiseach:

Deputy Gilmore is repeating what the Minister said. I do not think there is any problem about who gets the report; it is just that it would not make sense to look at the legislation in this area without taking account of the people who have to operate the system. That is what the Minister is doing.

Mr. Gilmore:

Can I have an assurance that if any report is made by the Public Offices Commission, it will be submitted to the House rather than to the Minister or the Government?

An Ceann Comhairle:

Deputy Gormley.

Mr. Gilmore:

Can I have an assurance from the Taoiseach on that?

The Taoiseach:

I do not control the Public Offices Commission and I cannot tell it what to do with the report. The commission is answerable to all of us so it would probably not proceed on any other basis than the one the Deputy is suggesting.

Mr. Quinn:

God love him, he is only the Taoiseach. He is not in charge.

The Taoiseach:

Not of the Public Offices Commission. If I was in charge of the commission Deputy Quinn would be the first to complain about it.

Mr. Gormley:

I would like to ask the Taoiseach when the Government intends to get rid of the €20 charge to view planning permission.

An Ceann Comhairle:

Does the Deputy have a question about promised legislation?

Mr. Gormley:

This has been raised in the House in the past year by Deputy Gilmore and others.

An Ceann Comhairle:

There is no legislation promised.

Mr. Gormley:

The Government has no intention of doing this. It intends to carry on charging citizens for engaging in the planning process, which it does not have a right to do. It is completely ignoring what Europe is telling us.

An Ceann Comhairle:

I suggest the Deputy submits a question to the appropriate Minister. I call Deputy Allen.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle:

Deputy Gormley is out of order, and what is more serious is that the Deputy knows he is out of order. I call Deputy Allen.

Mr. Allen:

I have four questions, all of which are in order. In regard to the spatial strategy published many months ago, when will there be a Dáil debate on the report?

An Ceann Comhairle:

That question is not in order. It is a matter for the Whips. On the second question—

Mr. R. Bruton:

Legislation is promised on that.

Mr. Allen:

Legislation is promised.

An Ceann Comhairle:

The Deputy is asking about a debate. If he is asking about legislation that is appropriate.

Mr. Allen:

There have been regional meetings all over the country and we have not yet had a debate here on the spatial strategy report.

Mr. Durkan:

That is true.

An Ceann Comhairle:

Is the Deputy's question on legislation?

Mr. Allen:

Yes, and regulations. I asked yesterday about the regulations relating to the interlink between Oireachtas Members and local authorities. As the Taoiseach did not have the information yesterday, he said he would let us have it. When will we see the regulations on the relationship between local authorities and Oireachtas Members which was promised by the Minister during the course of the Local Government Bill?

My third question relates to limits on spending at local elections. There are limits for Dáil elections. Does the Government propose to introduce legislation to limit spending for local elections? The Government has decided to press ahead, at a cost of more than €40 million, with the electronic voting system which has been described as defective and unreliable. Will the Taoiseach lay before the House all the relevant information regarding the security and cost of the system so that all parties can have an input into organising the system, since all parties will have an interest in the elections when they are held?

An Ceann Comhairle:

I suggest that the Deputy submits a question to the appropriate Minister.

Mr. Allen:

We did that but we could not get answers yesterday.

The Taoiseach:

It is hoped that the regulations required will be prepared in a few weeks' time. In regard to the national spatial strategy, there is legislation on different aspects of the environment but not on the spatial strategy itself.

Mr. Allen:

Is there legislation to limit spending in local elections?

An Ceann Comhairle:

Is legislation promised?

The Taoiseach:

There were regulations in relation to the last local elections which I presume still apply.

Mr. Allen:

No.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach:

There was no limit on them. However, there was a reporting procedure in place.

Mr. Allen:

One can report but there are no limits. One could spend €2 million. Will legislation be introduced?

An Ceann Comhairle:

Is legislation promised?

Mr. Allen:

The Taoiseach is on record as saying he does not want millionaires to buy their way into Dáil Éireann. It will happen next June—

An Ceann Comhairle:

I suggest the Deputy submits a question to the appropriate Minister. I call Deputy Burton.

Mr. Durkan:

The Taoiseach answered before.

An Ceann Comhairle:

That is not the issue.

Ms Burton:

Has further progress been made in relation to the Grangegorman site and the Dublin Institute of Technology? Is the Grangegorman Development Agency Bill likely to be introduced this year? It is some years since arrangements were made. I know the Taoiseach has taken an interest in the matter. It would be major legislation.

The Taoiseach:

The legislation has priority and is being drafted in the Department of Education and Science. I do not have a date for its publication but it is hoped to publish it—

Ms Burton:

Is it this year?

The Taoiseach:

I understand there is a draft of the Bill. The Deputy is correct that I have an interest in the matter and I understand the drafting process is well advanced.

Ms Burton:

Is it this year?

The Taoiseach:

I think so.

Mr. Boyle:

Given the uncertainty attached to the future of Lissadell House in County Sligo, which might also attach to other significant buildings which become available on the open market in the near future, what priority will the Government give to the heritage powers and functions Bill? When is the Bill likely to come before the House?

The Taoiseach:

The heads of the Bill have been approved and the legislation is expected in the spring of next year.

Mr. Durkan:

Arising from the question on electronic voting raised by my colleague, Deputy Allen, is it the intention to extend this system without consultation in the local and European elections? How does the Taoiseach believe he should respond to the suggestion that the system is unreliable?

An Ceann Comhairle:

That issue could be the subject of a Leader's question or it could be the subject of a question directly to the Minister responsible.

Mr. Durkan:

I have no wish to be leader.

An Ceann Comhairle:

The question is not appropriate at this stage of the Order of Business.

Mr. Durkan:

It could be the subject of the Taoiseach's reply because I know he wants to reply to it.

An Ceann Comhairle:

I call Deputy Michael Higgins.

Mr. Durkan:

On legislation, in view of the serious overcrowding and congestion in the courts and in view of the fact that it is not possible to raise a question in the House to the Minister, the Taoiseach or anyone else, can I ask where is the Courts Bill stalled? After the passing of the Courts Bill, will it be possible to ask questions in this House because the Minister or Ministers for the various Departments are responsible?

An Ceann Comhairle:

We cannot debate the legislation.

Mr. Durkan:

They are responsible and we cannot ask them questions.

An Ceann Comhairle:

The Taoiseach, on the legislation.

The Taoiseach:

The Courts (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill is being incorporated into the Courts (Civil and Liability) Bill. The heads of the Bill are expected to be completed by July. It is the intention to bring forward legislation in the autumn.

Mr. M. Higgins:

May I ask about two Bills? First, when will we debate in the House the public service management, recruitment and appointments Bill, which deals with appointments for which the Local Appointments Commission has been responsible? My second question relates to the Broadcasting and Telecommunications (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. This legislation arises from the commitment by Government to establish a fund for new radio and television programmes. Will the Taoiseach tell the House whether the imposition of the levy for the new radio and television programmes will extend to Sky Television and Mr. Rupert Murdoch's company? Will the legislation have to be redrafted to take account of the fact that the levy cannot be imposed under existing law on those who have access to Irish consumers but have no responsibility for broadcasting standards?

The Taoiseach:

On the Broadcasting Authority Bill, a new Bill is being prepared. The heads of the Bill are expected late this year so the legislation will be published next year. The public service management, recruitment and appointments Bill is currently being drafted and should be circulated over the summer.

Mr. Coveney:

The Taoiseach will be aware that at the beginning of the week there was wildcat strike action by members of An Post which froze the postal service in many parts of the country. I understand that under the new partnership agreement an assurance and promise has been given that a new code of conduct will be enacted which would prevent such action in semi-State bodies, particularly for vital services. The legislation which is relevant to the issue is the Industrial Relations (Amendment) Bill 2003. When are we likely to see that and are we likely to get an assurance that there will not be a repeat of what happened at the beginning of the week, which was unacceptable for businesses and the public?

The Taoiseach:

The heads of the Industrial Relations (Amendment) Bill 2003 were approved this week. The Bill has now gone for drafting and I hope it will be ready in the autumn.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 18 Jun 2003