I wish to share time with Deputy McHugh.
Intoxicating Liquor Bill 2003 [ Seanad ] : Second Stage (Resumed).
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
Is that agreed? Agreed.
Earlier I outlined our concern about the rise of the superpub and that the Bill is doing little or nothing to arrest it. As I speak there are several applications with the planning authorities with which I am familiar seeking permission for enormous pubs which would swamp their immediate neighbourhood and result in the release of hundreds if not thousands of people. That is not an exaggeration. Some of the newer pubs in the centre of Dublin can contain up to 2,000 people. That is not good for peoples' well-being on the streets of Dublin as it leads to a rise in crime.
Recently I had occasion to speak with a former constituent as a city councillor on Dublin City Council. He explained the changes in life on Camden Street in the heart of Dublin since the superpubs came on the scene. I come from a party that espouses passivism and non-violence. He described in graphic detail how, early one morning, he caught an individual urinating through the letterbox into his front hall and how he took up the sweeping brush and dealt with the offender in a very violent manner. While I would rarely condone such behaviour, in this instance I can understand it because his quality of life was shattered by the rise of the superpub and by the changes in his neighbourhood arising from the enormous size and scale of pubs. It has not helped him or the Garda in carrying out its duties or any of us in trying to improve the quality of life of our constituents.
While there are commendable aspects to the Bill, the existing legislation should be enforced prior to introducing new draconian measures to limit the availability of alcohol. The Bill is anti-family, anti-tourism and anti-fun. The existing laws should be enforced prior to the introduction of new legislation. Transferring cases of discrimination from the Equality Tribunal to the District Court will water down the powers of the Equal Status Act. There is a danger that those who are discriminated against will find it difficult to access the courts.
Banning children from licensed premises discriminates against families and against children and it will place undue restrictions on events such as weddings and family gatherings. Banning dancing during drinking-up time is one of the more ludicrous proposals. With this measure, the Minister, Deputy McDowell, is assuming the character of an old-fashioned parish priest with a blackthorn stick. We challenge the Minister to defend what we believe to be a retrograde proposal. It is possible to make better use of existing legislation. We intend to table substantial amendments on the banning of advertising of alcohol, particularly where there is a link between alcohol and sport, placing health warnings on alcohol products. Going down the nanny state road is not the right answer to the problem the State faces in regard to alcohol. Better planning regulation is the way forward rather than draconian measures. We want the cartel that controls the licensing industry broken up rather than more restrictions on alcohol.
There are many problem issues associated with intoxicating liquor and the provisions of this Bill will not solve the problems. The solution to the many problems associated with alcohol does not require more legislation but rather the enforcement of the provisions of the legislation already on the Statute Book. The solution to the many problems is to provide the resources to enforce the legislation, to resource the Garda in a manner in which it can operate efficiently, to recruit the extra gardaí promised in the programme for Government. In the name of God, what is the point in introducing more legislation if we do not have the resources to implement the legislation already on the Statute Book? The only reason is to endeavour to create the false impression that something is being done. The bottom line is that existing problems will continue to exist following the enactment of this Bill due to a lack of resources. The reality is that more gardaí visible on the beat is the best means of restoring sanity to this country and to control the limited number of blackguards who spoil it for the rest.
I wish to refer to some small but welcome elements of the Bill. The prohibition on the supply of alcohol to persons who are obviously drunk is welcome. I cannot understand the mentality of publicans who continue to serve persons who are drunk so that they end up in a stupor. The prohibition on the sale of alcohol at reduced prices is welcome because it can lead to binge drinking, particularly among young people. The reduction in opening hours to 11.30 p.m. on Thursday night is welcome. I come from the west and if the Minister of State would listen I would tell him the west has lost out and is lagging behind the rest of the country to the extent that people cannot afford to be in pubs on a Thursday night until 12.30 a.m. The reality is that the publican is in attendance and perhaps one or two customers boring the hell out of each other to try to pass the night away. That is the reason I welcome the reduction in opening hours to 11.30 p.m. on Thursday nights.
There are a number of comical elements in the Bill, not least the provision which prohibits those under 18 years of age from being on licensed premises after 9 p.m. even when accompanied by their parents. In defending this provision I have heard the Minister bore us with the same example which I will relate for the benefit of the House. It is clear from his comments that the Minister is introducing this provision only because he cannot find a solution to a very intricate issue of how the Garda will determine whether a person is drinking an orange soft drink or an alcoholic drink with an orange colour. If the Minister, Deputy McDowell, cannot solve the conundrum of the oranges how will the Garda determine if the under age person is accompanied by a parent, guardian or impostor? Will the parent on the licensed premises have to have proof of parenthood on his or her possession?
When Deputy McDowell was appointed Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, many thought we would have a tough Minister. I would say to the Minister, if he was present, that there is no point in having a reputation if he does not live up to it. I regret there is nothing in Bill to indicate any streak of toughness and, in fact, it contains very little.
The real solution to our problems is enforcement of existing legislation, recruitment of the extra gardaí as promised and resource them adequately so they can do the job they are supposed to do.
I wish to share my time with Deputy Curran.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
Is that agreed? Agreed.
I compliment the Minister and the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Dea, who is here tonight, on the manner in which they introduced the legislation. The draft heads of the Bill were first brought to the Select Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights. Deputies Costello, Deasy and McGrath, who are here, will testify that it was a constructive discussion. There may have been different views on the legislation but the method by which it was brought forward was a welcome departure from the norm and should form a template or model for the way in which legislation should be treated.
Some of the ideas which arose during that constructive discussion have been incorporated into the Bill. I welcome that. I specifically welcome the Minister's amendments in regard to extending the time prohibition on young people in licensed premises at night and the introduction of an element in the Bill regarding off-licences, although this provision does not go far enough.
I thank and compliment the Commission on Liquor Licensing, the strategic task force on alcohol and all the people involved on those committees – particularly the chairperson Gordon Holmes – for their hard and diligent work over the years in producing the reports which have come before us and which form the basis of this legislation.
When the Minister spoke to us at the pre-legislative stage, he indicated that he intends to introduce codifying legislation next year. This is a welcome commitment. I have dealt with this legislation on many occasions. It goes back to 1833 and there are dozens of Acts to which one may need to refer on any given licensing application. I hope the Minister does not simply intend to consolidate and amalgamate all the previous legislation but that the new legislation will genuinely codify the flaws apparent in this and existing legislation.
This Bill has as a background a scenario where alcohol consumption has doubled in the past ten years. We have a major problem with under age drinking, a serious problem with public order and a growing problem with anti-social behaviour, specifically associated with young people drinking. We have a new phenomenon of binge drinking, a proliferation of fast food outlets which, tied to late extensions in drinking times, have led to anti-social and public order problems. Our licensing laws have been liberalised in the past number of years, there is an increase in disposable income, a lack of parental control and there is a more sophisticated drinks industry in terms of advertising. There has also been a suggestion recently in scientific circles – I do not subscribe to it – that as a race we have a genetic predisposition towards alcohol.
In this context, the legislation is welcome. However, it should not be viewed, as some Opposition Deputies have suggested, in isolation. It is a multi-dimensional, multi-faceted problem. Some Deputies who suggested that this legislation goes no way towards solving the problem fail to realise that this is just a single measure which is part of an overall series of measures on advertising, public order, enforcement, CCTV etc.
The vast majority of publicans are diligent and law abiding. They operate in a difficult environment and we should not blame them for many of the problems associated with under age drinking, anti-social behaviour and drunkenness which are a feature of modern life. Neither should we blame the moderate drinkers. As legislators, we have an important input into the debate. We can control the supply of drink. We cannot do much about the demand for drink because it is related to many of the social issues I mentioned earlier. However, we have a duty to deal with the supply issue.
The legislation represents a reasonable attempt to combat drunkenness, under age drinking and binge drinking. It shifts the onus to the publicans in various areas, which I welcome. I have no difficulty with the provision regarding ID for 18 to 20 year olds after 9 p.m. There is widespread support for this. If somebody abides by the law and does not engage in excessive drinking, anti-social or drunken behaviour or public order offences, that person should have no difficulty with this provision. I draw an analogy between this provision and the need for a tax clearance certificate. Years ago people felt that the need for a tax clearance certificate was an imposition on the poor taxpayer. Now it is an absolute requirement and nobody bats an eyelid.
While I welcome the Minister's introduction of a measure of regulation in regard to off-licence premises and public order offences which may take place near them, it does not go nearly far enough. I ask the Minister of State to convey my thoughts on this to the Minister. Many of the problems of under age drinking, anti-social behaviour and public order offences are directly related to the proliferation of off-licence premises. Deputy Costello shares my views on this. The Minister may not be willing to deal with it in this legislation but he should introduce a comprehensive package of legislative measures to deal with the problems associated with off-licence premises in the codifying legislation.
The issue of supply is the one element of the problem with which we can deal in this House. Deputy Deasy spoke at length about how we are not dealing with the problem. We might not get it right on this or every occasion but it is our duty as legislators to deal with it. On promotional activities, there is a broad welcome for the abolition of the happy hours, which were an insidious development, in the liquor licensing legislation.
I welcome the introduction of the concept of closure orders into our intoxicating liquor licensing legislation. I have had experience of dealing with the enforcement of liquor licensing laws. Unfortunately, our legislation has not been enforced in many respects. Closure orders, in terms of flexibility, immediacy and their short-term nature, will have a major role to play in dealing with the enforcement of any new liquor licensing legislation. The Minister should encourage an ongoing monitoring situation in regard to how the legislation is working. The Commission on Liquor Licensing and the task force have a role to play in this regard.
There has been a general welcome for reducing closing time on Thursday nights to 11.30 p.m. It is recognised that people drinking up to 12.30 a.m. on a Thursday are drinking a lot and this makes it difficult for them to function well on a Friday. The situation needs constant monitoring to see how it develops and can be dealt with later if further fine tuning is required.
We are all familiar with the night-club industry campaign for special night-club licences. Although this Bill does not deal with it, there is great merit in examining it in greater detail over the coming 18 months, before the codifying legislation is introduced. I have dealt with special exemption orders at District Court level. They are an outmoded concept in that they confer a benefit on night-clubs, where none existed before. The night-club industry is a relatively new phenomenon and we need to have new regulations to deal with it.
The legislation recognises that we have a problem. It is a reasonable, if only interim, response until next year. It is part of a multidimensional and multifaceted response, which requires on-going monitoring. I look forward to the full and comprehensive legislation next year.
I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Intoxicating Liquor Bill 2003. The main purpose and function of the Bill is to deal with combating drunkenness, under-age drinking and binge drinking. A number of Deputies have claimed that this Bill will not solve such problems. They are right, a fact of which we are aware on this side of the House. No one is saying this Bill will sort out all those problems. Nevertheless, it is a first step towards addressing the issues. As the Minister has said, it is interim legislation which will be followed up later. The Bill is an appropriate and immediate response to deal with some of the glaring problems which face us on a daily basis.
Legislation is only one part of the solution, a raft of which already exists in regard to licensing laws. Enforcement is a key issue. Some sections of this Bill provide for better powers of enforcement for the Garda, particularly in the context of gardaí still being required to enter licensed premises in uniform, which is impractical. Other similar issues are addressed in the Bill.
In the context of where we are now, there is no question that the problems of drunkenness and the ensuing violence on our streets have become quite widespread. Although Garda figures may not always reflect this, because much of it is probably unreported, the accident and emergency departments in many hospitals bear witness to what is happening on our streets. Apart from the serious accidents, assaults and violence which occur, a raft of other nuisances result from alcohol abuse which affect neighbours and people out for an enjoyable night. The situation is out of hand in many cities and suburbs and it is appropriate that the problem is dealt with now.
There is a misconception that these problems are caused solely by the licensing laws and the pub trade. In preparation for this contribution, I reviewed a log of queries in my constituency office this morning. In it I found significantly more queries and complaints regarding people drinking outside as opposed to inside. Those people are drinking in fields and laneways and are causing all sorts of problems. This issue must be dealt with. This Bill makes reference to off-licences, however, we need to take its provisions several steps further. If my constituency office is typical of others, they are receiving complaints day in, day out. Public parks, laneways and shopping centres, which are closed at night, are commonly used by people for drinking.
Ironically, my local authority has introduced a ban on the consumption of alcohol in public places, which the Garda has enforced to a certain extent. Perhaps the Minister of State and his colleagues will accept that, rather than various local authorities bans, it may be time for a national ban, enshrined in legislation. If that were the case, the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Environment, Heritage and Local Government could promote it and there would be more clarity. At present, the provisions vary from place to place, depending on the level of enforcement by the Garda. We have had a certain amount of success with the ban but it requires considerable effort from the local superintendent in order to police and enforce it. However, where it has been in effect, it has made a significant difference. Perhaps it is time we examined the issue further in the context of next year's legislation.
We can have all the legislation we like, but its success is dependent on the role of the Garda and how the force engages with it. One of the problems is that, while we have more gardaí employed in the State than ever before, they are assigned to different task forces and specialist units, which we never had before, such as those investigating lap-dancing, drugs and fraud. The result of all these specialist investigations is that, unfortunately, the number of uniformed gardaí available to any station is not as high as it was traditionally. I have no major problem with that situation because the success of these units, in particular in regard to the seizure of drugs in my constituency, is increasing year on year. However, if we are to address the area of drunkenness and the lawlessness and disorder which come with it, we need a presence of gardaí on the street.
Although it is perhaps more pertinent to next year's legislation, I suggest to the Minister of State that it is important to bar and night-club owners that the industry is run well and that their areas are well policed and secure. If an area gets a reputation for being dangerous, it affects everyone because people will not go there. Many late night bars and night-clubs use CCTV systems and supply their own security staff. These premises charge an admission fee, therefore, it is not unreasonable that we examine charging them a levy on such admission fees in order to provide additional Garda resources and manpower – a public order unit on the beat. We must address how we can provide more gardaí on the beat at those times of night when there are concentrations of people in villages, towns and city centres at the end of the night.
The provision in section 15 with regard to the production of ID is long overdue. On my first trip to America, one could not go into a pub without proper ID. This measure is a first step and is to be welcomed. Given that gardaí will be able to enter premises without wearing a uniform, the provision could become really effective. I specifically welcome the fact that the onus of responsibility for dealing with drunkenness has been extended beyond the licence holder to his or her staff.
I have a problem with section 14, which prohibits persons under the age of 18 being on a premises after 9 p.m. All my married life, I have enjoyed my summer holidays in Ireland and last year I was in Clifden. Clifden would do no business in the summer without foreign visitors, a feature typical of many other areas in Ireland. Most of the pubs doing any business in the evening at 8 p.m., 9 p.m. and 10 p.m., were those which had a restaurant business. The provision for an after 9 p.m. ban is not a practical cut-off point when one considers the tourism industry.
I accept and understand that one may not be comparing like with like, when one considers, say, a village pub in a suburb of Dublin. I have grave concerns for tourism, particularly in parts of the country which do not have an indigenous population to support all the pubs. The example of Clifden is a good one, which is replicated in Killarney and other places. The pubs have developed in a manner that they are providing significant amounts of food, primarily aimed at the tourism industry. Whether visitors are Irish people or foreigners going on holidays to Clifden or any other part of the country, the 9 p.m. cut-off is a bit too early, particularly in the summer. Perhaps there is a mechanism by which the Minister could be more generous with the time by specifying a summer and winter time. I would appreciate the Minister of State examining this issue, particularly with regard to tourism.
The Minister of State said that temporary closure orders could be one or seven days. Such temporary closure orders may be a little severe in regard to some of the offences.
Much depends on the size and nature of the pub and the nature of the offence. One of my concerns is that the decision is at the discretion of a particular judge. It is not just the licence owner who would be affected. Depending on the nature of the offence, the suppliers to that pub – and I am not talking merely of the breweries, but all other suppliers, including staff and part-time staff – could be affected. Some of the offences, which could be quite minor, could be dealt with in one jurisdiction and incur a one-day closure, while in another jurisdiction they might incur a seven-day closure. For a first offence, that seems quite a harsh penalty. The notion of a seven-day closure seems severe for what might be a minor offence. I am not saying that the law should be broken, but the penalty in this case could be much more severe than the crime warrants.
I wish to share my time with Deputy Hayes.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
I am very disappointed with this Bill. I have listened carefully to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell – the real Taoiseach as we call him in the west. I have listened to him on RTE, on the "Pat Kenny Show" and other programmes. I thought that when the legislation came before the House, we would have the answer to all the problems in this country. Even watching him on television on Sunday with Sam Smyth – and I know they are good old buddies – I thought, listening to him, that everything would be okay. I thought that with the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, in that Department, we would have no problems. Reading the Deputy's remarks in the Sunday Independent every week, I believed this Bill would be the greatest ever to come before this House.
I want to say to the real Taoiseach, Deputy McDowell, that I am bitterly disappointed. If this is the best he can do, after 14 months, there is only one place for him to go to – from the front benches to the back. He has let society down.
The only reason the Bill is in the House at all is not because of the Government, or Deputy McDowell or Deputy O'Dea. It is because the people of this country have seen what has happened regarding the changes in the licensing laws over the past number of years. I compliment RTE, which has taken up this issue where the politicians have failed. An RTE programme showed what is actually happening at all hours of the morning. What has been going on for the past number of years has been appalling. People in this country are saying that enough is enough and that they want something done in regard to the drink culture, yet it seems the best we can do is attack young children who are out with their mothers and fathers.
I come from the west, an area that depends on tourism. I come from a town that will see thousands of visitors over the next few months. Mothers and fathers will go into restaurants and pubs to be told, at nine o'clock at night, that their young children are to be put out on the street while they finish their meal.
Eight o'clock.
That will not help tourism in the west. We have worked hard enough to promote it, by God, and we do not have much trouble attracting people because we are very much family-oriented. The best this Government can do is attack the children. It then passes matters over to the local authority in order that it can pass a resolution to grant an exemption for the great supporters of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Labour Party. If Joe Soap and five out of the nine members of the local authority are drinking in the pub, and get a few drinks from the owner, that owner might then inform them that he is planning a jazz festival for the following weekend and could do with an exemption. He explains that the local gardaí are not too friendly and suggests that the authority pass a resolution supporting his application, with the judge taking on board what the publican says.
Is handing over the licensing laws to the local authorities the best the Minister can do after 14 months in office? In effect, the Minister is saying that the Government cannot deal with planning or housing; that it cannot do the job it is elected to do because of interference from central Government; and is now to decide who will have licences or exemptions. What a super Minister. I was calling him the real Taoiseach a minute ago.
The Deputy is afraid of responsibility. It is amusing that he is so reluctant to give up his job on the local authority.
The Minister should leave his seat and climb the stairs. He has been talking about closing time on Thursday nights. He should return to the old closing times on Friday and Saturday nights. We have seen what has happened since the introduction of the Bill by the former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue. It has destroyed our society. We have a drinking culture that we never saw before. That is because Fianna Fáil wanted to be in favour with the publicans before the last general election. They know they made a mess of it. The Minister must now try to clear up the mess, but he is not doing much about it.
The Deputy supported that Bill.
He supported it all the way.
Supported it?
He supported it all the way.
The Deputies will vex me. If I get angry, God help them.
The Deputy should not let the facts get in the way of a good rant.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
If the Deputy addressed his remarks through the Chair, he might not invite interruptions from the Minister.
It is now proposed to send undercover cops into the pubs. We have two of them on the other side of the House and we will send them in under cover. We have no guards, and Deputy O'Dea simply has a part-time job with Independent Newspapers, so he might take on the job, along with Deputy McDowell. We do not have sufficient gardaí on the streets. Deputy Deasy pointed that out a fortnight ago. I myself tabled a number of questions on the matter. Due to sickness, retirement and the cutbacks, we do not have enough gardaí. The Minister has failed to convince his Cabinet colleagues to put up the money for an increased Garda force. More daftness is being spoken about an undercover Garda force in the pubs.
I ask the Minister why so many public order cases are being thrown out of the courts. Why is this happening, and why is the Minister not asking the Garda Commissioner about it? The Garda is doing its job, yet 56% of the public order cases have been thrown out. Why is that? The Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, played a part in this issue. He told the publicans he would take action on the Equality Bill. This matter relates to what happened in my county last weekend.
The public order issue is accounted for in the Bill. Has the Deputy read the Bill?
I understand that the Minister of State is referring to bringing cases before the District Court. What will the Minister for Justice, Law and Family Reform do about decent people who are trying to run their businesses? Last weekend we saw the disruption of a business run by a 72 year old man and his wife. There was nobody there to protect them. I want to know how the Bill is dealing with such issues.
The Minister rubbished me a number of months ago when I tabled a Dáil question about ID cards. He told me he could do nothing about it, that it was too complicated. How has he resolved it now within six months? When I asked the question, the matter was supposedly all tied up with European legislation, constitutional rights and everything else. All of a sudden, the Minister has all the answers. He is the best man I know for the spin. We are short of medical doctors, but we are not short of spin doctors, and by God the Minister is good at spin.
How will the Minister resolve the ID problem? A person of 19 or 20 years of age goes into a pub. The publican is not sure whether that person is over 21 or over 18. If the person says he is not carrying a card and asserts he is more than 18 years old, and is then put out by the publican, will that person then have a case against the publican?
No.
No.
The Minister and the Minster of State have answered and I hope they are right. On pubs and clubs, we now see that they have made a submission asking to be allowed stay open until 4 a.m. If they spend enough time lobbying the Minister and the Minister of State, they will probably be allowed to stay open until 8 a.m. That is the way we are heading. We need to look at pubs and clubs in cities. One would sometimes wonder what is the difference or whether there is any. These premises are open in the day as pubs and, when looking for exemptions, they are clubs at night. It is quite simple in rural Ireland, where the pubs are not clubs. I have problems with this law. We have decent honest publicans. The Minister himself acknowledged many times that the Garda does a good job of enforcement in my own county. If some of the gardaí in other counties followed their example, we might not have half the problems. They are doing a good job. Some publicans might not agree with them but I do.
Whose side is the Deputy on?
We are good at introducing laws but not at enforcing them and that is part of the problem.
Regarding late night drinking, why was the Minister not brave enough on this occasion to demand that all clubs close at the same time? In fact, there should be no such thing as a nightclub in a pub. It should just be a pub. There should be no such thing as pubs opening up to 1 a.m. and beyond with people coming on to the streets at 3 a.m. and 4 a.m. This is happening in every town and is a scandal. I thought on this occasion that the Minister would be brave enough to take this on, and I would have been the first to support him.
If a man has cancer, people will sympathise with him, but they have greater sympathy for a drunkard falling up the street. As with penalty points and drink driving, the time has come for people to stand up and be counted. Where people with drink taken misbehave by causing disorder on the streets, we must isolate them as we have done in the case of those with penalty points or convicted drink driving. The time has come when we must stop sympathising with those who drink to excess. We must stand up to these people and say to them that they must take responsibility for themselves. We have too much sympathy for those who drink to excess and for publicans who are a powerful lobby. I know they will not be too happy when they read my speech, but I do not care because I see on a daily basis what drink is doing to homes, families and society. People will cover for drunkards at work but do not have half as much sympathy for those suffering from cancer, for example. There is too much sympathy for those who drink excessively and that must stop.
The Minister did not go far enough in this proposal. Rather than just cutting back on Thursday night opening, he should have cut back Friday and Saturday night opening as well because what is happening in every town and village is outrageous. I compliment people like Dr. Michael Loftus. Although he would not be a supporter of mine and would be a supporter of the Government, I do not hold that against him because I have always admired him for his courage as a doctor and coroner in speaking out 20 years ago when he first identified the drink problem. He was called every name under the sun because he told the truth and was not afraid to stand up for his convictions. He must be complimented because he was 20 years ahead of his time and we now see the drink crisis he foresaw then. Doctors are sick of what is happening in our hospitals and homes every Friday, Saturday and Sunday night. The Garda Síochána is called out at all hours because of drink-related violence. We in this House are the cause of that because we made a serious mistake a number of years ago and we should be brave enough to admit it.
It is shameful that the GAA, the FAI and the IRFU depend on drinks companies for money and that the Government will not give them money from the national lottery so they do not need the sponsorship of these drinks companies to keep up and running. The GAA should get rid of the Guinness All-Ireland and should let it be called the "pioneer All-Ireland" next year or something else. The Government should sponsor it if it is serious about tackling the drink culture. It effectively sponsors pubs through the later opening hours. The Minister may laugh, but this is no laughing matter. If the Minister took his duties more seriously and introduced the necessary legislation, we would not have half the problems. If the Government is not serious about tackling the drink problem, it will continue.
I know what is wrong. The Government receives so much revenue from licences and duty on drink that it effectively has a conflict of interest. Much revenue is being made but it is being lost through the unnecessary burden on hospitals. The Bill does not go far enough and the Minister has failed the people. They called him Michael the Archangel on the Pat Kenny and Sam Smyth shows but he is Michael the shy man instead.
It is very difficult to follow that. Deputy Ring referred to the Guinness All-Ireland hurling final. I know that Mayo does not have much chance of winning, but I hope we win it.
The back door is Tipperary's only hope.
I am delighted with the opportunity to say a few words on this important Bill because it is a serious issue for us not only as public representatives but also as parents. Many of us encounter the effects of alcohol abuse through our business and work, hence our interest in the subject.
I do not understand the need for this new legislation. Gardaí say quite openly that the problems they encounter in fulfilling their duties are some of the reasons they cannot implement the rules and regulations already on the Statute Book. It is time we examined how the Garda operates and works. I had reason to speak to some gardaí who told me the amount of time that they are tied up in Garda stations with administration means they cannot get out on the streets and do the work the Minister pays them to do. We need to examine that in the context of this Bill. They also told me that they need extra resources. I am at a loss as to why that cannot be addressed within current legislation.
The duty on alcopops was increased in the budget last year. I was amazed that younger people who drink these alcopops were so receptive to the idea of the extra tax being imposed on them. Many of them know that these alcopops cause serious problems, especially for inexperienced drinkers, because they are so easy to drink and so high in alcohol content.
Many people will remember years ago when cider was high in alcohol content. People would not drink it because it was dangerous, it was known as "lunatic soup", which it probably was at the time. The company, which is based in my constituency, dropped the percentage of alcohol in it and soon the industry was thriving and, as a result, drinking cider is no longer as dangerous as it used to be. We should examine methods or reducing the level of alcohol in the drinks that are causing problems for young people.
The culture of binge drinking frightens me. I have been drinking since I was very young, much younger than I like to admit, but I was taught by a person I respected to be able handle my drink. That idea does not exist any longer. We are not teaching people how to carry their drink and not drink more and more and get carried away.
Young people should be educated at an earlier age because we live in a society surrounded by drink. People meet in pubs before and after matches. I was in Dublin city centre after the opening ceremony of the Special Olympics on Saturday night and the place was full of young people going in and out of pubs. I went to the match the following day and people, whether they were on their way to or coming from the match, were going into the pub for a drink. It is the same for people who are going to meetings. Tonight most of us will finish up in a pub, be it here in the Dáil bar or a bar somewhere in the city. The truth is that our lives revolve around drink and we are in and out of pubs often.
Someone might come into the House and report us.
We should train ourselves and our young people to be able to drink.
I am glad that Deputy Hayes followed Deputy Ring because I have experienced the challenge of following him and I am glad to slip in now when the House is quieter. I am also glad to support the Bill and the Minister.
The Minister is damned if he does and damned if he does not. He has been harangued by people who said he must take action and now that he is taking action, he is getting the same treatment. I do not feel sorry for him – he is very capable – and I support him in this. I support him not only as a Member of this House but as a member of the committee on justice, equality, defence and women's rights. I am glad that I was given the opportunity to serve on that committee because it is a tremendous challenge and I am enjoying the work. It is a great experience working with colleagues such as Deputy Costello and others under the chairmanship of Deputy Ardagh.
When I made my maiden speech it was on the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Bill. On that occasion I was in favour of the Bill and in contributions since then I have drawn on my experiences from my constituency. I have often mentioned that, as I go about my business in Tallaght, Firhouse, Templeogue and Greenhills, many parents come to me. In the past year they have regularly told me of their unease when their children go out at night and their sense of relief when they hear the front door open and close in the small hours of the morning. In most cases those conversations are underlined with a sense of helplessness, anxiety and anger but everyone agrees that the solutions to the problems caused by the excessive consumption of alcohol are complex and will not be found overnight or through the introduction of new laws in isolation.
I am regularly told of incidents where the response of gardaí has been slow and where the punishment meted out in court some months after an incident is too lenient. The court concentrates on the appearance of the defendant who appears, on this one occasion – and it is always just one occasion – to have gone off the rails, blaming the demon drink to avoid responsibility for his or her action.
We were all adolescents once but I must have led a sad life. Listening to colleagues talking about their experiences, I seem to have missed out because I was not as hard a drinker as was the norm. I am sorry Deputy Ring is not here to hear this but I often think I lost out by not fulfilling the John Wayne image of the hard-drinking Irishman. If I come back a second time I might do things differently. It is, however, important that we be responsible. Four years ago I had a serious illness and the doctors told me at the time that it was good that I had looked after my body by not smoking and not drinking heavily.
We are all parents and parents must take some responsibility. They must make it known that their children are on their own if they push too far. Many colleagues have spoken about the mayhem in the accident and emergency departments of our hospitals and other problems associated with alcohol abuse and it is vital that we recognise it is not always someone else's child.
While this Bill fills a gap in legislation before the more comprehensive Bill is introduced in 2004, it will only scratch the surface of the problem unless it and previous legislation is enforced. We hear calls from all sides of the House for more gardaí. A concerted effort by the Garda between 10 p.m. and 3 a.m. under existing legislation on weekend nights would act as a deterrent and as a public demonstration that current levels of drunken behaviour are unacceptable.
I receive many representations from groups on the causes of and solutions to the State's growing drink problem. They all recognise that there is a real problem but the experts are unable to agree on a solution. That tells its own story and demonstrates how necessary it is to consider all the representations, although some of them are quite diverse and it is very difficult to reconcile them.
I have often said that I bring to this House my experience from my constituency. I live in the town with the third largest population in the State yet there are fewer pubs in Tallaght than in many small villages. I do not know if that is good or bad but it is interesting and it demonstrates the culture that exists.
There was a time when drinking heavily was seen as acceptable and part of Irish culture and tradition. Now, however, it is more serious. I have no problem if people are responsible but now it appears that some people cannot come out of a pub without misbehaving. I am not saying everybody misbehaves but there are many public order problems, of which the Minister is well aware, with people vomiting and causing all sorts of difficulties on main streets, up lanes, etc.
I have a concern about some of the action the Minister is taking. In trying to clean up the act as far as pubs, off-licences and late night drinking places are concerned, I hope we do not transfer the problem elsewhere and create more anti-social difficulties in our communities where, to some extent, we have solved the problem of under age drinking in fields, lanes and so on. The situation is not yet perfect but in South Dublin County Council, with the introduction last year of the by-laws, we have gone some way towards solving the problem and addressing some of the difficulties experienced by many people in estates. In dealing with disorder inside and outside licensed premises, it is important that we do not drive the problem underground which will cause difficulties in communities. I ask the Minister to take account of that and listen to what we are saying.
In that context, and to be unusually parochial, I spoke to the Minister recently—
That is highly unusual.
No. I do not say too much about Tallaght. By the way, one of my Fianna Fáil colleagues, Mick Billane, is in the Visitors Gallery and he would want me to say that we are very proud of many of the initiatives taken in Tallaght. I mentioned to the Minister recently the No Name Club in Kilnamanagh where, through a Garda initiative, we are working with young people in our community to show them how they can have a positive night out without drinking.
A good idea.
It is done in a supervised way and even though he is the busiest Minister in the Government – that might get me into trouble—
The Deputy is certainly the busiest newcomer.
He is here for the long haul.
—I hope he might visit us some day in Tallaght to see that project. I appreciate the attention of my colleagues and I commend the Bill to the House.
I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate on whose introduction I commend the Minister. Interestingly, the last telephone call I received in my office before I came to the Chamber was from a woman who rang to say she was terrified, on this lovely summer's evening, by the carry on of a gang of youths who are drinking beer around the corner from her house. I suspect that is happening on a widespread basis, not just in this city but throughout the country.
They probably got it from the off-licence.
I have no doubt it came from the off-licence and I have a fairly good idea which off-licence.
The vast majority of drinkers are very responsible. They do not overdo it and do not binge drink. The vast majority of licensees are equally responsible but, unfortunately, there has been a trend in recent years where, as a result of various societal changes, the consumption of alcohol has spun out of control. For that reason the Minister, and I commend him again for it, has tacked the problem.
When I was in St. Patrick's College in Drumcondra in 1965-67 there were about 190 late teenage trainee teachers, all but two of whom wore pioneer pins, including myself. Indeed, when all of us went for interview for our various teaching posts, we made sure we wore the pioneer pin. We also wore the fáinne. I have to say that one of the two consumers of alcohol in St. Patrick's at the time is a Member of the other House. I did not drink until I was 21 years of age, not because I did not want to but I could not afford it. That has changed and that is one of the reasons the Minister is taking this action.
The reality now is that alcohol is one of the drugs of choice. Enormous work has been done in the area of dealing with what might be called hard and soft drugs in setting up drugs task forces in areas where there is serious abuse of drugs, but I wish we could convince the powers that be that we should include alcohol in the target to try to ensure we encourage moderation. I have also seen the positive work being done by the No Name Clubs. I remember Eddie Kerr coming to Finglas many years ago to set up the first one in the Dublin area, which is still flourishing. Regrettably, there are few of them still in existence.
We have a problem with enforcement; there is no point pretending otherwise. What the Minister is doing is, by and large, strengthening the hand of the enforcers to ensure there is a higher level of compliance. I cannot understand why only 47 out of the 440 cases taken for breaches of the law in regard to serving under age people in pubs come from the Dublin area. Some of the members of the Law Library are extremely ingenious in the way they have been able to exploit what are undoubtedly loopholes in the law. A licensee in my own area was brought to court and because of some particular loophole in the way the summons was served or whatever, he was fined the princely sum of €100. He would make that money in 15 minutes or half an hour in the pub.
I strongly support the temporary closure issue. No stronger signal can be delivered to a licensee than to have the pub, hotel or whatever closed for either a minimum or a maximum number of days. I would not shirk from fairly severe penalties, and the maximum of 30 days is quite severe. I also support the idea of a prominent notice being posted on the door of the premises. That will send out the message that the licensee better beware or will be taken to court.
Bringing back the Thursday closing time to 11.30 p.m. is a good idea but there are practical problems with that, including industrial relations problems. I do not always agree – in fact, I never agree – with the vintners on the points they make but real difficulties will arise in trying to encourage bar staff to take what will probably be a lesser wage if they are working shorter hours.
Unlike Deputy Deasy – I am not sure whether Deputy Ring is for or against it – I strongly favour the advisory role of local authorities in relation to extensions, etc. I am sure Deputy Costello will remember that this originated in the crime committee of Dublin City Council a number of years ago when the committee was chaired by a colleague of Deputy Costello's, Alderman Michael Conaghan. We pursued that issue at the time.
Throughout the country, but certainly in Dublin, we have enormous problems with nuisances being created by pubs which stay open late at night. Enforcement is not adequate. Shutters are being pulled down and rattled at all hours of the night, together with all the associated loud behaviour. The local authorities should take their own responsibility. We cannot, as the Minister said, shirk our responsibilities. God knows we have shirked them enough as members of local authorities. We should not shirk them in this regard.
Section 13 relates to off-licences. I support the strongest measures the Minister can introduce to compel off-licences to abide by the law and label trays of cans or whatever, regardless of whether it is awkward. We can label everything else. If we buy a can of sardines, the label of the particular supermarket will be on it. I cannot understand why off-licences cannot label bottles and cans.
Hear, hear.
It can be done. One of the suggestions made to us at the time was that the plastic bags from the off-licences would be labelled, although they are now producing paper bags, and good luck to them. I welcome that, but why can we not introduce a provision that the wrappers would at least carry the logo of the off-licence?
I wish to raise an issue not covered by the Bill, which needs to be addressed through education. It is sinister when young people under the ages of 18 or 15 years can place an order for alcoholic drinks by telephone with their local off-licence using a credit card and have trays of them delivered to their homes by local taxi or hackney companies to be consumed to their hearts content, with or without their parents' consent. This happens. I am aware that the Bill provides that young people will be entitled, in certain circumstances, to consume alcohol with their parents' consent.
I have a difficulty concerning the restriction on young people being present on licensed premises after 8 p.m. or 9 p.m. How will this be policed? I would favour the measure if it were possible, but I am not sure it will be. Although the Minister and I differ on the issue of identification cards, I support his proposal to make the carrying of identification mandatory. The age card, which we strongly promoted in Finglas, is easily copied, as are, unfortunately, passports, driving licences and other documents. The Minister and I agree to differ on the introduction of a national identification card system, which I strongly support. It would be possible to strike a balance between protecting civil liberties and introducing a card containing information largely in the public domain.
I also strongly support giving licensees the freedom to set an age threshold for the sale of alcohol above the current level of 18 years. Certain off-licence operators ran into trouble for doing this. I also support the restriction on happy hours.
On my way to the Houses this morning, I noticed a large hoarding advertising a particular stimulant drug, not an alcoholic one, which promotes an association between consumption of the product and inspiration, imagination and flight. We all know the drink in question is not consumed on its own, but is mixed with shorts, which brings us to the issue of education. I suspect that in codifying the laws the Minister and his colleagues in the Departments of Health and Children and Education and Science will probably address this issue. We have a serious problem of young people and not so young people not being able to control consumption of alcohol. I welcome the measures being introduced in the Bill to strengthen current laws and hope they will be enforced this time.
I wish to share time with Deputy Connaughton.
I am delighted to speak on the Bill. As a licensee, it is important that I declare my interests. We have heard the Minister speaking on the licensing laws virtually every week since he took office. In one sense, the measures in the Bill are too little, too late. I am aware of the difficulties of running a licensed premises and a supermarket off-licence.
Crime doubled in the period from 2000 to 2002. This Bill codifies previous legislation. It is a pity the Minister did not spend more time on the legislation and produce a defining Bill.
When Deputy Deasy published the Fine Gael Party's ten point plan, the Minister indicated it could have been issued on the back of a beer mat. Now we find that many of its ideas have been incorporated in the Bill. While I am not active as a publican, I am aware of the difficulties they encounter. We have a special, confined restaurant licence. When introduced in 1998, these licences were a fantastic concept, as they allowed alcohol to be sold with food which created significant benefits in terms of the development of tourism.
I foresee difficulties arising from the provisions on identification. If a person on a licensed premises claims to be 22 years old, he or she has no obligation to produce identification. What happens if people from Northern Ireland or the United Kingdom, which do not have an obli gation to carry identification, enter a pub here? Difficulties will arise when people coming here for international sporting events are asked in a Jury's hotel or elsewhere to produce identification.
People from Northern Ireland should be able to produce their voting card.
We continually refer to Ireland as a tourism destination and we have a no frills airline which brings many visitors to Dublin and elsewhere. Small family businesses, which began as acorns and were nurtured by their owners through hard work, form the backbone of the economy. Regulation is needed. However, it is unfair to associate publicans, as a group, with breaches of the law. They work tirelessly, often 40 hours on a weekend not during a whole week – there is a hell of a difference. There are definitely difficulties in Dublin and other large urban areas in terms of breaking the law. However, if one was to enter a licensed premises in the west on a Thursday night – Deputy Costello will verify this – one would not find a cricket in them as they are only busy during weekends.
If a publican asks a person his or her age and the person replies that he or she is 22 years, there is no obligation to produce a permit. This is one of the issues—
If the publican gets it wrong, that is the end of the matter; he or she is guilty.
As a barrister, will the Minister explain how a publican can act as judge and jury? On a busy night, for example, one must hire additional staff. There are major difficulties in the trade in finding competent staff. Frequently, the licensee is not working on the premises, but will have nominated a bar manager who may not know the clientele of the pub in question. How will the Bill be enforced? I ask the Minister to examine the difficulties which will arise with regard to people from the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland.
Some months ago, the Minister stated we needed café-style pubs and told us he was considering the possibility of introducing a new form of licence to facilitate them, but they are not mentioned in the Bill, nor is there any reference to imposing restrictions on superpubs which feature big screen televisions, loud music and low lights. I am amazed the Minister did not address this type of pub in the legislation. Perhaps he intends to return to the issue. Many of us were amused by the notion of café-style pubs, given that the difficulty in most towns and villages in the west is that there are too many pubs. The introduction of significant changes to our dated licensing laws is of fundamental importance.
Most pubs, hotels and restaurants rely primarily on food and pubs which depend solely on alcohol have little chance of survival in the current climate. The growth of tourism here is strongly linked to food and the new options available, from T-bone steaks to à la carte, which have attracted families. As Deputy Ring pointed out, hotels in Westport are family orientated.
We are a tourism destination, which will make enforcement of the legislation difficult. Will members of the Garda Síochána be given authority to police the regulations and, if so, how will they go about it? Since I entered the House in 1997, we have had major debates on the enforcement of previous legislation in this area. Does the Minister envisage members of the Garda Síochána entering a hotel at 9.10 p.m. and asking people their age? This is the difficulty with the legislation. As a previous speaker stated, there were 47 cases of breaches of the licensing laws in the greater Dublin area. The Bill places an obligation on off-licences to put labels on cans. That will not work. Every off-licence in the country uses scanners.
Tell Deputy Costello that.
There are no labels.
What is more sophisticated than a label?
This Bill is totally flawed. Pricing guns are no longer to be found in off-licences or supermarkets. This Bill seeks that labels specifying source of origin be put on drinks containers so that they can be traced back to the vendor. I guarantee that this will not work. Each off-licence cannot put its name on cans of Budweiser or bottles of scotch to identify where they were bought.
Section 2 deals with the definition of a bar. The explanatory memorandum states:
The definition of a bar is the similar to that in the Intoxicating Liquor Bill 1988. The definition is important because a distinction is made in sections of the Bill between licensed premises and the bar of licensed premises. Admission to the bar may be prohibited but access to other parts of the premises is not affected, e.g. function room.
This is a total contradiction. A hotel function room could contain a bar that is a couple of hundred metres in length. Is the Minister saying people could leave the bar, walk into the function room and be served?
If it is not a bar.
What is the definition of a function room?
As long as it is not a bar—
My definition of a function room would include a 200 metre bar that is much larger than a usual bar.
Deputy Costello referred to section 13. This will substitute a new section for section 32 of the 1988 Act. It prohibits the purchase of alcohol for, or delivery to, persons under the age of 18. However, the purchase or delivery of intoxicating liquor can be done by agreement and parental supervision. This cannot work.
The Bill also refers to alcohol in the vicinity of licensed premises—
Section 13 refers to the home.
It is unworkable and I would like the Minister to explain how that would work.
The whole Bill is unworkable.
This is an amateur Bill. I am astonished by it. The enforcement of this Bill is a non-runner. The Minister has spoken about alcohol every week since he was appointed and for him to come up with a flawed Bill like this is astonishing. If the Minister can come back to me in six months' time and tell me this has been enforced, I will congratulate him. The Bill is unworkable.
This Bill is a bit like the curate's egg. An effort is being made.
It is a poor effort.
I was in the House on the night when the Minister got it into his head that Deputy Deasy was on the wrong track and rubbished him unnecessarily.
Deputy Deasy rubbished himself.
What the Minister did not know was that certain elements in the media decided to rubbish him for the same thing – what comes around goes around.
I have no problem with the principle behind this Bill. There are aspects of it that should have been included in legislation a long time ago. Whether it is possible to enforce the legislation is another matter.
There is no doubt that the country is submerged under alcohol. Through binge drinking etc., the problem is almost out of control in some areas. Everyone knows this; it is not news. The question of when a person is drunk in the eyes of the law has been raised. While the Minister is more of a professional in this area than me, I do not know from where the person who has to tell a court an individual was drunk will get their instructions to prove it to the court. Time will tell if I am right or wrong. It will be extraordinarily difficult to prove this.
I have no problem with many of the matters in this Bill. Having reduced the opening hours by an hour on Thursday, I would have thought the Minister would have followed it up and done the same throughout the weekend. Whether this is practical will be seen in what the Minister does vis-à-vis discos and late closing. If one wanted to create a battleground where the Garda cannot win, one would create it with 500 or 600 young people coming on to the streets at 4 a.m. Many of them are inebriated to the degree that they have false courage. Two gardaí in the village squad car cannot be expected to maintain law and order.
This Bill falls short of the total legislation I would like to see being introduced. Why did the Minister not start at the other end? There is no doubt that the vintners, particularly those in rural areas, will be cranky about this. Deputy Perry referred to villages and towns where one would not see a sinner on a Thursday night. If all the stakeholders saw that their empires were all being impinged on to some degree, people would be more inclined to accept it as an all-in solution.
The Minister should start at the beginning. I can see no reason in the world why any disco or pub would close its doors as late at 3 a.m. This is happening all over the place. I cannot see any reason why this cannot be brought back by an hour or an hour and a half, without being a spoilsport. If this were done, ordinary publicans could see that there would be no great disadvantage to them when they are expected to close earlier. I have received much material from various lobby groups. The computers are whirring and e-mails are being sent all over the place. This Bill only allows another wedge to develop. The Minister did not deal with the issue in its totality. There will be much unnecessary unease for some of the stakeholders caught up in this.
I hope that this will become part of the Bill when it comes to be codified. If it is not, I do not think the Bill will work.
It will work.
I hope so.
The Minister is confident.
As a society, we must ask what we will do about the alternatives to drink. I have been a Pioneer all my life. There are a couple of thousand Pioneers in this country and that is good for people who want to do that but in the modern day it is not for everyone and certainly not, it seems, for young people. The No Name Club, with which I and most other people here have certain connections, is a movement that is flourishing in the part of the world from which I come. It is not the solution to the problem and will not prevent binge drinking and public order offences, but it will help. There is no other organisation at youth level that is likely to deliver a reasonable degree of good sense, level headedness and so on than the No Name Club. It has connections with the Garda Síochána, local community leaders and parents. Most importantly, the cohort of young people involved in it are at an age, 15 or 16 years, when if they can be persuaded to delay drinking for another year or two they will, as many of my colleagues here have said, have a more mature approach to drink. The No Name Club currently gets a small amount of Exchequer funding. I hope the Minister, as a member of the Cabinet, will do something about that if he gets the chance.
I have serious misgivings about whether this legislation can be policed on the ground without a significant increase in Garda numbers which does not seem to be happening. I hope we will get to that stage.
Something which has not been mentioned – perhaps people are afraid it would be unpopular – is that, whether we like it or not, there will have to be an element of parental control and responsibility in this business. It is too easy to blame the Minister, the Garda, publicans and everyone else, but if Irish society has broken down to the extent that fathers and mothers are either unaware or do not care where their 12, 13 and 14 year old sons and daughters are at 2 and 3 o'clock in the morning, we have a problem on our hands. I would advocate that parents should be held responsible to some extent for the wrongdoing committed by young people. An 11, 12 or 13 year old cannot be held to be totally to blame. Parents or guardians must accept some responsibility for where they are. It may not be a popular thing to say, but it is a fact and that is what should happen.
I hope it will be possible to police this. If the Minister thinks this will solve the problem he is in cloud cuckoo land. What matters is how this is implemented and we will have much more to say about it on Committee Stage.
I propose to share my time with Deputy Ellis.
Deputy Connaughton is right about the culture of complaint in society in modern times. Expectations have risen. People's expectations of the State are much greater than in previous times and, unfortunately, the spirit of providing for oneself is somewhat blunted. Under this heading, parents could do much more.
Ireland has a tradition of drinking, and a world-wide reputation for drinking to excess and binge drinking. As Deputies know from trips overseas, there is an Irish bar in almost every city in Europe, the USA, Australia and other places. For millions of people their first point of access with Ireland is the Irish bar. In the 19th century cartoons in Punch magazine depicted the Irish as hard drinking, and there is a historical reality to that. Historically in this country there was only one moral authority, the Catholic Church. The system of land ownership meant men married late in life. Therefore, frustrated men were allowed a certain amount of leeway in terms of alcohol abuse, gambling and so on. That is how alcohol abuse developed historically as a problem and remains a problem today. A blind eye was turned to what would be a moral infraction in other countries because it did not interfere with society in the same way as anything to do with the sexual morality might have done in the 19th century, and that legacy has survived to this day and is an historical reality.
In more prosperous times people have more money and there is much more drinking at a much younger age. It is time we dealt seriously with it in this House. The legislation currently before the Dáil is simply one section of a raft of legislation and reform that is necessary to change people's attitudes and culture. There is nothing else to do here other than get drunk, apart from sport. Drinking is one of the few outlets for young people today. Unless we are serious about dealing with that, we will suffer in the future. This legislation is evidence of the Government's commitment in this area.
There has been some criticism to the effect that there is plenty of legislation already and if it were enforced we would not have to bother introducing new legislation. I welcome this legislation and the legislation promised next year because it gives a very clear codification of licensing law and leaves no room for confusion among licence holders and people entering premises. That clarification and transparency will bring a greater degree of compliance and that is a welcome development.
Another criticism relates to the Equal Status Act. Alcohol is one subject that gets people's interest. If one wants to have a good debate, talk about boozing and alcohol abuse. When the Equal Status Act was passed in 2000 the only section of it that was debated with any kind of enthusiasm was the part that dealt with Travellers and their exclusion from public houses. Similarly, this Bill has sparked a significant amount of lobbying from interested parties, more so than any other legislation. The Equal Status Act dealt with other issues, such as access to education and real estate. None of these issues sparked anybody's interest. It is a fact of Irish life that when it comes to alcohol everybody has an opinion because it touches on almost everybody's lives. Drinking is perhaps the only social outlet, the only thing for people to do.
The criticism of section 19 concerning the Equal Status Bill is misplaced. I agree, however, that the Equality Authority needs to be funded properly. I welcome the fact that in the District Court a successful respondent can pursue an unsuccessful litigant for costs. That is right and proper, and it is a normal mechanism in the justice system. However, the Equality Authority needs to be properly funded so that genuine cases will not be debarred from being brought in the District Court by reason only of somebody's lack of finance. Deputies should also be aware that the vast majority of claims that are brought to the Equality Authority involve sums which come under the jurisdiction of the Small Claims Court where there is no cost implication. It deals with cases involving damages of less than €1,300. The Equality Authority's report for last year refers to this.
Equality officers have no formal legal training, yet in many cases the Equality Tribunal will hear submissions from barristers and solicitors and it is difficult for an equality officer to deal with such adversarial encounters. In view of this, it is appropriate that the District Court hears these cases, especially given that 45% of tribunal cases involve Travellers and access to pubs. It is better if they are heard in the District Court, provided that the Equality Authority is properly funded. Most claims will end up in the Small Claims Court.
The Bill is one part of a major governmental approach to the problems in this area. There has been a cultural change in the country with regard to smoking. As an erratic smoker, I feel somewhat like a pariah in so many parts of a society. It is not only that it is impossible to smoke in public places and buildings, but the absence of cigarette advertising impacts on society. In view of this, the Minister should consider, and be brave enough to deal with, the question of the advertising of alcohol on television and in sport. It is not appropriate. If we want a cultural change in the country, we must create a sense of the unacceptability of drink, especially among young people who are most involved in sport and probably have the kind of disposable income for which brewers and distillers constantly compete.
There is some merit in the doubts that have been expressed about the legislative provisions concerning hotels. The Minister should exercise some flexibility on this aspect as they will probably be difficult to operate. There is no use in creating a law that cannot be enforced; it makes a mockery of the system.
I am interested to see what will happen with the use local authorities will make of their right to pass resolutions. Scepticism has been expressed about this, but I believe it will work. I do not consider councillors will pass resolutions unless they are totally satisfied with the security arrangements for major events that should attract special exemption orders. They will not want to see headlines about public disorder, criminal damage or any kind of destruction of property on foot of a motion or resolution sponsored by them and in view of this, they will not pass them lightly.
The provisions regarding people aged between 18 and 21 years are acceptable. In other countries there are prohibitions on drinking, for example, in the United States people under the age of 21 years cannot enter a licensed premises. It is a step in the right direction and part of what will necessarily be a cultural change if this problem is to be properly addressed.
The Bill is probably only part of an overall restructuring of the licensing laws covering the pub trade. It must be accepted that in the past ten to 20 years, the licensed trade has changed considerably. Small family owned pubs in rural Ireland have become super-pubs in the major towns, the disco scene has replaced the dance hall and there has been a total change in the culture of drink and the amount consumed. For example, most social occasions are now centred on, or associated with, drink. The situation needs to be addressed but how this can be done in the context of modern Ireland will require much deliberation.
The Bill imposes many responsibilities on publicans, including responsibility for ascertaining the age of those they serve, monitoring the amount of alcohol consumed by their patrons and the question of dealing with them. These are serious issues. For example, the age problem is a major cause of concern. A person may look as if he or she is 18 years of age when he or she is 24. The reverse is also the case where somebody who looks 23 or 24 years of age may be only 17 years. This creates major problems in terms of age identification. It may be necessary to consider imposing a mandatory requirement on all customers to carry age identification rather than singling out those under the age of 21 years, which is discriminatory. Either one is an adult at 18 years of age or one is not. If one is an adult, one should not be treated differently to those who are over 21 years of age.
Publicans also face problems around what one publican described to me as "foreign cargo". This arises where a customer enters a premises reasonably intoxicated and is served perhaps only one drink. However, ten minutes later the publican may find the customer lying on the pavement outside the pub for an unknown reason, yet he will take the rap because his premises were the last attended by the customer. This provision will make it very difficult for publicans to operate.
Publicans will also face problems with the provisions dealing with the presence of under age people in their pubs and parents taking children into pubs. In many instances, pubs are not the ideal location for young children, but will these provisions mean they will be left at home? For example, will parents go to the pub leaving a 13 year old minding the rest of the family? That is not unheard of. In some cases, because of the lack of parental control, parents do not know the whereabouts of their 12, 13, 14 or 15 year olds and if they ask, they will not be told the truth. This is regrettable, but is probably an aspect of modern society because in many cases, both parents must work to have the lifestyle to which they aspire. The net result is that in some cases the children can be of secondary importance. It is sad but it happens, and it is a serious problem. While something should be done to address the problem of young children in pubs late at night, as this is totally wrong, I also see the other side of the equation. It is possible that more serious problems will arise where older children are unaccounted for by their parents for long periods at night-time.
Education on alcohol needs to be urgently addressed. It is time that second level schools started to explain to students the problems that can be caused by binge and other forms of drink ing. It is a serious issue. If young people were properly educated on the dangers of alcohol and the problems it can cause in later life, we might see a response similar to the change in attitude to smoking among certain sections of society. It now appears that girls smoke more than boys. Similarly, it appears that, regrettably, girls are inclined to drink more than their male counterparts at a certain stage. The net result of this is the need for a major campaign of education on alcohol in second level schools. Not to do so will lead to many future social problems.
On the last occasion legislation was introduced to extend opening hours, I expressed reservations. Late night drinking has become a result of the previous changes. Enforcement is a problem for the Garda. I understand the inability of the Garda to enforce the law in this area, especially where one or two gardaí enter a pub with 200 or 300 customers. They will not be given a great reception, especially if everyone is half or three quarters full of alcohol. Such a scenario is very hard on gardaí and I do not know what support they would need. It is impossible for small numbers of gardaí to enforce fully the present laws on pub closing hours.
The input of local authorities into this Bill is welcomed by all of us. It gives people the opportunity to decide what will happen in their local area and it is a chance for councillors to take part in decisions with regard to exemptions and opening hours rather than to blame everybody else. I would not like to see circumstances arise such as those which obtained in my younger days whereby in one diocese there were midnight dances, 1 o'clock dances in the next and 2 o'clock dances in another. Local authority members will be in a position to decide what should happen in their own area within reason, but I hope we do not end up with major variations from town to town. That would not be in the best interests of the licensed trade.
The changes on equality law are to be welcomed. The law has been abused in some cases which is something the new provisions will prevent. People who have seen publicans as soft touches will, hopefully, no longer do so. The problem of publicans trying to run their own premises were highlighted recently in Swinford. They may be overrun by people to whom they may want to serve one drink, but who take over the place subsequently. Publicans must be protected against such incidents, but they have been afraid because of the equality legislation to exclude people in some cases. I do not say that everybody should be excluded or that all Travellers enter pubs to wreck them. Travellers have the right to be treated in the same way as everybody else, but they do not have the right to wreck a premises without facing the same consequences other members of society would face if they were to do so.
The penalties in this Bill are slightly harsh in respect of first offences with regard to which courts should have complete discretion. Anyone can understand the imposition of a mandatory closure for a second offence within a certain period. Penalty points on driving licences are lost after a certain period of time and this should also be the case in terms of publicans. A first conviction should disappear after a prescribed time limit. Such a provision would be important in terms of allowing people to make the right decision at the right time and to cover up for a person who may accidentally find they have been off side. If discretion were not left to the courts, a person could find their premises and their reputation damaged for something which might not even be their fault.
We all welcome this Bill while hoping that future legislation will deal with every aspect of anti-social behaviour late at night. It must also deal with the problems of chippers and other late night venues frequented by young people.
I wish to share time with Deputy Deenihan.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
Is that agreed? Agreed.
All the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, has done here this evening is laugh and smirk during the speech of every Opposition Member. Deputy Costello will agree with me on that. I have never seen such an arrogant person in my entire life. While we are dealing with a serious and important Bill, all he can do is laugh and smirk at what everybody on this side has to offer.
He is probably in the bar now.
He is probably in the bar. He would not come to the House when an important matter was raised on the Adjournment by Deputy Allen. The Minister was afraid to come before the House to say what was happening. If every Minister carried on the way Deputy McDowell does, with his laughing and smirking, this country would be in a very poor state. I hope the Minister is listening to this, wherever he is, and that he will not come back here tomorrow and behave in the same way. The legislation before the House is very important. If the Minister went out on to the streets of Dublin tonight and looked at the drunkenness and anti-social behaviour there, he might get serious. Fights are breaking out while ambulances and gardaí pick up young people off the streets.
When I first examined this Bill, which the Minister thinks is the be all and end all, I noted that it was mainly concerned with the combating of drunkenness and disorderly conduct and was designed to address the problems of under age and binge drinking. The Bill declares that it contains a package of urgent reforms intended to improve compliance with enforcement and the intoxicating liquor code. Other reforms recommended by the Commission on Liquor Licensing, including far reaching structural reform of the licensing system, will be addressed in the codification of the entire liquor licensing code which has already been announced. We are told that preparatory work to codify licensing laws has already commenced as it is intended that a codification Bill will be available by mid-2004.
The Minister is on record as saying there is a crisis in under age drinking and binge drinking while parents do not even know where their young people are at night. While this crisis continues, all the Minister can do is take petty decisions. He is afraid to take the tough decisions necessary to stop the fighting, the drugs, the under age drinking, the public order offences and the anti-social behaviour. All he can do is provide councillors with the power to set opening hours. I have never seen such ludicrous proposals. I live in Wexford where Enniscorthy Town Council could say that Kavanagh House should close at midnight, Wexford Borough Council could say Mooney's Lounge need not close until 1 a.m. and New Ross Town Council could permit a pub in its jurisdiction to stay open until 1.30 a.m. I could travel from Enniscorthy to Wexford to New Ross, perhaps also crossing to Waterford where the pubs may not close until 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. While this Minister is giving powers to county councillors, another Minister is trying to take powers away from them by removing Members of the Oireachtas from local authorities altogether. I do not know where this Government is headed, nor does it seem to know itself.
Deputy Ring spoke earlier about spin, which is what the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is about. The Minister is afraid to make the tough decisions. Those decisions relate to the streets and if the Minister went out to them, he would know that binge drinking is occurring. Deputy Hayes spoke about the Garda, of which an uncle of mine is a member. The stories he has to tell me are absolutely frightening. He has been called out at 2 a.m. in Dublin to attend to a 14 year old child who was laid flat on his back because he had been able to obtain plenty of beer in an off-licence without any problem. The child was able to sit on the street and drink. The Minister says we will put labels on alcohol. If a bottle of vodka purchased at an off-licence is drunk in a park by an under age drinker and left behind, the off-licence can be prosecuted for selling it. This Minister has lost the plot completely. He is afraid to take the tough decisions required to stop under age drinking and fighting on the streets.
Debate adjourned.