The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform was in possession.
Offences against the State (Amendment) Act 1998: Motion (Resumed).
The following motion was moved earlier today by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell):
That Dáil Éireann resolves that sections 2 to 12 and 14 and 17 of the Offences against the State (Amendment) Act 1998 (No. 39 of 1998), shall continue in operation for the period of 12 months beginning on 30 June 2003.
I do not propose to detain the House. There is a threat. There are those who are hell bent on causing mayhem, murder and the destruction of people's lives and property. It would be naive of us to think that we should dismantle our legal defences against that threat in present circumstances. The argument has been made that we should take the initiative and the risk and hope that they would be inspired by a dismantling of the legal protections in place to become more political. I admire the optimism of those who believe that, but consideration must be given to the dedicated way in which the dissident republican bodies have set about a calculated campaign to subvert the Good Friday Agreement and the risks they are prepared to take to kill other people. This is not simply a matter of legal preference but life and death. Last weekend in Derry we all saw how close we were to another mass murder atrocity being committed with a view to dividing Northern Ireland and repolarising it yet again, so as to undermine the Good Friday Agreement, destroy the political centre and make the extremists on both sides get into the political ascendancy. When all these factors are considered, one must hesitate when invited to accept the proposition to make a bold gesture by dismantling defences and leaving oneself defenceless against such a ruthless, anti-democratic, murderous and vicious conspiracy within the State.
I echo Deputy Costello in that many of the views expressed by the minority in the offences against the State review are correct. We must always see jury trial not simply as desideratum but the norm towards which we are duty bound to re-establish the legal regime in our country. We have probably been derelict in the past in seeking to identify ways in which jury trial can be strengthened against ruthless people who would threaten jurors, including organised criminals who would not hesitate to blow the head off anybody – witness or juror – if they could avoid a prison sentence. Other countries have sustained jury trial in circumstances far more difficult than some of the ones we face. For example, organised crime in the United States has waged a half cen tury long war with the American state, yet jury trial has not been sacrificed as a response. We can move to strengthen jury trial.
When I launched the offences against the State review in Dublin Castle, I expressed the hope that the political dynamic in Northern Ireland would lead to the circumstances in which an entirely changed situation would have made it possible in the short run to do away with the Special Criminal Court. I will not become involved in an argument here as to why that has not been possible, save to say that the discovery last Saturday of a 1,200 lb bomb in Derry, fully primed with explosives, and of a similar but smaller bomb in north County Louth shows beyond doubt that the threat is still there and that there are people who are willing to exploit the vacuum in Northern Ireland political affairs with a view to maximising polarisation and rekindling an undeclared civil war among the people there. We must move on from that.
I passionately believe in jury trial and in the civil liberties of accused persons. If I could for one moment identify with the optimism of Deputy Finian McGrath and others, which is effectively to take the bold step and put behind us all of these extraordinary measures that have had to be taken to defend our democracy against this subversion, and for one minute in good conscience go down that road, I would do so. However, history and events would shortly show me up to have been extremely naive. A gesture of that kind will not be reciprocated in any sense by subversive republicans. They would regard it as open season and would commence an onslaught against the institutions of this State and against the peace process in Northern Ireland. They would regard it as an act of supreme naivety and folly were the Legislature of this State to abandon its defences against a murderous and well-planned campaign to undo the Good Friday Agreement.
We will return to this motion regularly. It is my fervent hope that on the next or subsequent occasion on which we do so, this House will be able to take a different court. I am clear that everybody who supports democracy and the rule of law should not falter or run out of moral courage at this juncture. I accept fully what has been said by some of the Sinn Féin commentators on this debate that there is a sense in which all of us wish to move on to new territory and to put the past behind us. While these events are reflective of the past, I do not accept the proposition that it is right to experiment with the very safety and integrity of the State itself. I cannot experiment with it while hoping against hope that people as vicious as those in question have demonstrated themselves to be would reciprocate a gesture made by this House by calling off their activities and by stopping trying to kill people. All the evidence available to me suggests that any such gesture would be laughed at and scorned before being thrown back in our faces. I regret that we find ourselves in these circumstances.
With respect, the Minister's analysis is wrong. Please accept that the view we have articulated is—
The Deputy has had his opportunity to put forward his analysis.
The Minister plays only into the barrow of those he has spent the last ten minutes discussing.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
The Minister is in possession.
The Deputy has made that point and I take it on board. I believe it to be his sincere point of view, but I do not defer to him in matters of this importance or gravity. In the context of recent events, it will be seen that I have no monopoly on misjudgments on fundamental issues. The Deputy might look to his own party to see that on occasion even Homer nods on the republican side of the fence.
We claim no—
I am adamant that I cannot experiment with people's lives. I cannot have another Omagh and apologise afterwards by saying that Deputy Ó Caoláin and I got it wrong. Salus populis suprema lex. The safety of the people is the supreme and fundamental principle of our law and I do not intend to abandon the duty conferred on all of us. I am not here cutting a shape on this issue. The great majority of the parties in this House, even with the reservations expressed by Deputy Costello, know where the balance lies on this issue. It does not lie with experimentation of a risky kind in present circumstances.
There is a commitment in the Good Friday Agreement.
If Deputy Ó Caoláin comes to me with convincing evidence that dissident republicans would abandon their campaign if I made changes to the Offences against the State Act, I would be glad to ask this House to reopen the issue. Until he does, I know where my duty lies as do the majority of the parties in this House. It is to renew this provision.
I am convinced we can only move forward by embracing change.
Why then did Sinn Féin not ask people to co-operate with the Omagh investigation?
Question put.
Tá
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Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Andrews, Barry.Aylward, Liam.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Breen, Pat.Broughan, Thomas P.Browne, John.Burton, Joan.Callanan, Joe.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Cassidy, Donie.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Costello, Joe.Coughlan, Mary.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Cregan, John.Cullen, Martin.Deasy, John.Dempsey, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard J.Ellis, John.English, Damien.Enright, Olwyn.Fahey, Frank.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Fox, Mildred.Gilmore, Eamon.Glennon, Jim. |
Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Harkin, Marian.Haughey, Seán.Hayes, Tom.Higgins, Michael D.Hoctor, Máire.Hogan, Phil.Jacob, Joe.Kehoe, Paul.Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McDowell, Michael.McEllistrim, Thomas.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McGuinness, John.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Olivia.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Murphy, Gerard.Nolan, M. J.Noonan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Dea, Willie. O'Donnell, Liz. |
Tá–continued
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O'Donovan, Denis.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Penrose, Willie.Perry, John.Power, Peter.Power, Seán.Rabbitte, Pat.Ring, Michael. |
Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Ryan, Seán.Sexton, Mae.Shortall, Róisín.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Stagg, Emmet.Treacy, Noel.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Wilkinson, Ollie.Woods, Michael. |
Níl
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Boyle, Dan.Crowe, Seán.Cuffe, Ciarán.Ferris, Martin.Gormley, John. |
Healy, Seamus.McGrath, Finian.Morgan, Arthur.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus. |
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Ó Snodaigh and Finian McGrath.
Question declared carried.