Seán Ryan
Question:64 Mr. S. Ryan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his views on the recent criticism of his record in office by a person (details supplied); and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23385/03]
Other Questions. - Crime Prevention.
I had a very useful meeting on 25 September with the Lord Mayor of Dublin and councillors Frances Fitzgerald, Vincent Jackson and Dermot Lacey. As I mentioned in a previous reply on 30 September, we discussed, among other issues, the work of the Garda Síochána and my Department regarding crime detection and prevention and how Dublin City Council might contribute to making Dublin a safer city.
As I mentioned at the meeting, the Garda authorities have put a number of new initiatives in place to deal with anti-social behaviour in Dublin. Among them is a new city centre policing initiative which was launched on 9 June 2003 by Assistant Garda Commissioner Kevin Carthy for the Dublin metropolitan region. That initiative provides high visibility policing presence in specific target areas in the north and south inner city centre areas. It targets issues of concern such as public order, assaults, street theft, shoplifting, addicts, beggars and general vagrancy. Another Garda initiative, Operation Boulevard – a name I would not have chosen myself – targets anti-social behaviour in the environs of O'Connell Street.
The Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 2002 gives the Garda Síochána additional powers when dealing with anti-social behaviour. In addition, all sections of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2003 have been in operation since 29 September 2003. As Deputies know, the latest provisions deal with earlier closing times on Thursdays, grant licensees discretion to exclude certain young persons from bars and oblige persons aged between 18 and 20 to carry an age document if they wish to purchase alcohol.
Rather than go on too long, and to allow time for the Deputies, I wish to emphasise that the interaction with Dublin City Council is something that I very much welcome. I have put in place in the Garda Síochána Bill provision for a formalised link between elected local government representatives and the Garda Síochána in their areas. It is very important that local government representatives have a real and constructive input, and a formal basis for having that input, with the Garda Síochána. I emphasise that traffic will not be one way. It will not just be a whinge list for the Garda about the inadequacies of policing, because many of the problems that exist in Dublin arise from decisions by successive city councils and corporations regarding planning matters and so on.
People talk about CCTV, but a British Home Office survey showed that adequate street lighting is as effective in deterring criminality in any given area.
Additional information.I am confident that these reforms will improve compliance with, and enforcement of, the licensing laws. The many structural reforms to the licensing system recommended by the Commission on Liquor Licensing will be addressed in the codification of the licensing code. I expect that an outline of a codification Bill will be available by the middle of 2004.
As the Deputy will be aware, the preliminary draft scheme of the Garda Síochána Bill 2003 made public on 30 July contains a number of measures on the organisation, management, performance and accountability of the Garda Síochána aimed at improving the efficient and effective use of Garda resources. The publication of the preliminary draft scheme allows all concerned, and the public at large, the opportunity to take part in the consultative process that will inform the drafting process of the Bill.
As the city council recognises, the responsibility for crime prevention and enforcement cannot rest solely on the Garda and the wider criminal justice system. Local authorities also have their role to play. The Garda Síochána Bill therefore proposes a formalised consultation process in the form of local policing committees which will formulate and oversee the implementation of measures of co-operation between the local authority and the Garda aimed at reducing crime and disorder and combating the misuse of alcohol and drugs.
With regard to concern regarding recent gang-related deaths, the term "gangland killing" or "organised crime" is widely used by the media in referring to the nature of certain serious crimes, including unlawful killings. It is often qualified by the suggestion that the victim was "known to gardaí". While that speculation is understandable, it does not correspond to the manner in which the Garda Síochána classifies crime or individual offences. As I have said before in this House, it does not influence gardaí or deter them from their investigation of those crimes.
I have had a number of meetings with the Garda Commissioner and other senior Garda personnel to discuss crimes which might be put in the category of gangland or organised crime. I am satisfied that the necessary resources, both financial and operational, are being directed towards the containment and detection of such serious criminal activity. I have also confirmed to the Garda authorities my willingness to consider any further measures which they feel would assist in addressing the problem.
Whatever the Minister's desire for interaction with Dublin City Council, my question was about his interaction with the Lord Mayor of the city council and the city. The Minister chose as usual to avoid the question in his answer. He went off on a red herring and chased a hare somewhere down that boulevard about which he was talking. The Lord Mayor criticised the Minister's record on crime as showing complete contempt for the city and giving it the two fingers. He called the Minister an arrogant bully boy who had said that he would not meet him to discuss crime. That is the question that I asked the Minister. He may have wonderful ideas, but he has been keeping them to himself as far as the Lord Mayor is concerned.
The Lord Mayor is the first citizen of the city, after all, and he got no reply for three or four weeks to a letter which he sent the Minister and then received a nondescript reply without an intention on the Minister's part to meet him. He went to the media, as the Minister is himself accustomed to do from time to time. Did the Minister threaten to resign because of his remarks? Did he go to the Tánaiste and ask her to extract an abject apology from the Lord Mayor – which he gave? Why can the Minister not meet the Lord Mayor in a proper, courteous fashion and share his wonderful views on policing in the city of Dublin?
This is a case where public perceptions have very little to do with realities. The Lord Mayor and I have met on two occasions, once in St. Andrew's community centre on Pearse Street in my constituency, where I had a very pleasant conversation with him.
Were there witnesses?
The other occasion was that which I mentioned at the outset of the question – in my office. He was accompanied by three other members of Dublin City Council. There was not one angry word or even a cross word. It was the most cordial and happy meeting that I have ever had with four public representatives regarding criminal law issues. There was no suggestion on either side of ill feeling or anger of any kind. I am at a loss to explain why the media should think that anything that I have ever done regarding any public representative would be discourteous or in any sense arrogant or bullying. As the Deputy knows, I do not behave in that way, and never have done.
Since when?
Deputy Deasy has come off worse on a few occasions, but I have never been offensive to him. On occasion I have been too kind to him.
The Lord Mayor must be a very confused young man because his version of the meeting is different.
The Minister is misleading the House.
Is the Minister sure he was there?
I assure Deputy Costello that my meeting with the Lord Mayor of Dublin and his fellow city councillors was entirely cordial, good-natured and constructive. I do not believe that he has ever suggested otherwise.
Did the Minister approach the Lord Mayor of Dublin, either himself or through an intermediary, to extract an abject apology regarding the matter?
The Deputy is well aware that the Lord Mayor of Dublin speaks for himself and does not hide behind the door when it comes to expressing his views on many issues. All I can tell the Deputy is that I have the most cordial relationship with the Lord Mayor and that discussions which have taken place between us have never been anything other than utterly friendly and cordial.
A Deputy
Yes or no. The Minister should give a straight answer.
Did the Minister threaten to resign over this matter which has been so courteous?
Is the Minister sure that it was the Lord Mayor whom he met in St. Andrew's community centre? The Lord Mayor's version of what took place seems vastly different to his. Perhaps the Minister might confirm to the House that it was the Lord Mayor whom he met and not someone else. Could he confirm whether the views expressed by the Lord Mayor at that time were accurate? Does he not agree with them?
The same Lord Mayor was critical of Knock, County Mayo. He was critical of the Virgin Mary in Knock. I am surprised Fianna Fáil backbenchers did not revolt over Knock.