Private Members' Business. - Criminal Justice System: Motion (Resumed). – Dáil Éireann (29th Dáil) – Wednesday, 19 Nov 2003

Private Members' Business. - Criminal Justice System: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Kenny on Tuesday, 18 November 2003:

That Dáil Éireann:

–deploring the failure of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to deliver on the recruitment of 2,000 additional gardaí as promised before the election and the failure of the Government to make provision in the Book of Estimates for the recruitment of extra gardaí in 2004;

–noting the decision of the Central Criminal Court sitting in Limerick to relocate a murder trial to Dublin due to the difficulties which it experienced in swearing in and retaining a full jury;

–regretting the subsequent collapse of the murder trial in the Central Criminal Court in Dublin, and the extent to which it has undermined and subverted the administration of justice in this country;

–noting the comments of Mr. Justice Carney on the collapse of the trial that he had never before encountered "the likes of what happened in this case";

–deploring the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform's failure to maintain confidence and stability in the criminal justice system;

–noting that so far this year, on the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform's watch, there have been 19 gangland killings and that 40 criminal gangs are operating in Dublin;

–believing that the failure of the Government to properly support the RAPID programme in order to tackle the roots of social disadvantage has exacerbated the crime problem;

–noting the implicit admission of failure in the fight against crime on the part of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in his decision to allocate a mere €2 million extra to the Garda Síochána to fight crime;

–condemns the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Government for failing to recognise the inter-generational shift which has taken place in gangland activity and further condemns the Government for its consistent failure to take definitive action steps to quell their activities; and

–calls on the Government immediately:

–to admit that it has failed to prevent the escalation in gangland activity to such an extent that such gangs have become a threat to the administration of justice,

–to restore public confidence and judicial confidence in the criminal justice system,

–adopt a co-ordinated approach to tackling gangs which exercise an unacceptable level of control in communities throughout the country,

–to commit itself to the enforcement of the existing criminal laws which are already on the statute book,

–to publish proposals forthwith setting out how it proposes to afford proper and adequate protection for witnesses and jurors in criminal trials,

–to honour its pre-election promise to recruit 2,000 extra gardaí,

–to fully and adequately resource the Garda in the fight against gangland activity,

–to establish forthwith an organised crime unit that has the capability and specialisation to tackle and extinguish criminal gangs,

–to expand and enhance the emergency response unit,

–to enable such further similar trials to be conducted in the Special Criminal Court.

Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"–acknowledges the challenges presented by the recent collapse of a trial in the Central Criminal Court;

–confirms that the fundamentals of our criminal justice system are sound and endorses the efforts of the Minister and the Garda Síochána in meeting the challenges posed by the current situation;

–endorses the measured and effective response of the Minister as outlined to the House on 4 November last and notes that he has initiated a review of the adequacy of legislative provisions with a view to identifying any additional measures deemed appropriate, including examining Canadian law in relation to the admissibility of recanted statements with a view to the introduction of appropriate legislation in this jurisdiction;

–welcomes the initiative taken by the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights in offering its assistance in reviewing the criminal justice system in order to establish whether any legal changes are necessary;

–commends the concerted efforts of the Minister and the Garda Síochána to deal with so-called gang crime in areas of Limerick and Dublin and the additional €2 million, representing an additional 55,000 hours in Garda overtime, recently made available to the Garda for the remainder of 2003 to target crime;

–acknowledges that the deployment of Garda resources is a matter for the Garda Commissioner based on his professional assessment of the operational requirements;

–condemns the savage violence of the criminal gangs and expresses its sympathy to the families of those people who have lost their lives and those injured;

–endorses the Minister's condemnation of the despicable actions of those criminals who placed a hoax bomb under the car of a journalist last week and congratulates the gardaí on their prompt action in discovering the crime;

–notes the significant increases achieved in last week's Estimates, including an increase of over €91 million, or 9.5% overall, and 13.5% in Garda overtime, for the Garda Vote, bringing the total allocation to the Garda Síochána to more than €1 billion for the first time, which represents an increase of over 81% on the €580 million allocated in 1997;

–acknowledges that Garda numbers are currently at their highest ever level of 11,900 and notes the Government's commitment to prioritise the recruitment necessary to bring the force to its authorised strength of 12,200;

–commends the Government's National Drugs Strategy 2001-2008: Building on Experience, which brings together all elements of drugs policy in a single comprehensive and cohesive framework;

–recognises the Government's allocation of significant resources towards the drugs initiative to date, with over €62 million having already been provided to implement projects established via the local drugs task forces with a further €68 million also having been allocated to date in supporting over 350 facility and service projects;

–recognises the Government's ongoing and sustained commitment to addressing the drugs problem as a matter of priority with a significant increase of 5% in the moneys available for drugs and young people's facilities and services fund in 2004 from €32 million to €33.5 million and the establishment of the regional drug task forces in the health board areas earlier this year;

–commends the continuing success of the Garda Síochána and the Customs Service in seizing large volumes of illicit drugs, particularly heroin and cocaine, thereby reducing access to those drugs which cause the most harm;

–acknowledges the continued success of the Criminal Assets Bureau in responding to serious and organised crime by targeting and seizing the profits of such crime, with the bureau in 2002 obtaining interim orders to the value of more than €34 million and interlocutory orders ("final" restraint orders) to the value of over €10 million;

–commends the Government's record in continuing to strengthen the criminal law over the past six years through unprecedented legislative reform;

–supports the Minister's comprehensive legislative programme aimed at,inter alia, strengthening the powers of the Garda Síochána through a new Criminal Justice Bill, and providing a modern legislative framework for the Garda Síochána through a new Garda Síochána Bill;

–commends the Government for its continued commitment to the implementation of the RAPID programme; and

–restates the determination of the House that no one shall be beyond the reach of the law."

–(Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform).

Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. O'Dea)

I wish to share my time with Deputies O'Connor, Sexton and Ardagh.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. O'Dea

One useful aspect of this debate is that it gives us the opportunity of separating fact from fiction. No party in this House has a monopoly on concern for people's right to live safely in their own homes and to be safe on the streets and for the operation of the rule of law. The last six years have seen the greatest increase in Garda resources and powers in the history of the State. That is a fact. The years since 1997 have seen at least one piece of major criminal law put on the Statute Book each year to improve the powers of the Garda. That is a fact. There are more gardaí now than at any time in our history. That is a fact. Even as we speak we are recruiting more gardaí. We have one of the highest ratios of police to civilians in the free world. That is a fact.

Mr. McHugh

The invisible garda.

Mr. O'Dea

It is not just a matter of numbers but of training, equipment and technology. It is about special units and operations for surveillance and so on. The provision for the Garda contributed by the Irish taxpayer this year – more than €1 billion – is 75% greater than the last Estimate of the rainbow coalition back in 1997. That is a fact. All these things have an effect on crime levels. Deputies need not take my word for that. In the welter of commentary surrounding the recent Limerick case, Mr. Harry McGee, the political editor of the Irish Examiner and no friend of this Government—

Mr. Deasy

Really?

Mr. O'Dea

—said that in a discussion about crises in crime levels the relevant date was not 1997 or 2003 but 1995. He said in that year recorded crime levels reached their highest point and since then the crime rate has been dropping.

The circumstances surrounding the case in Limerick mentioned in the motion also present a challenge to the criminal justice system. While we will respond to the challenge, we will not do so in a knee-jerk manner. We will respond to it as we are compelled to do, namely, in a way that is consistent with preserving, in so far as we can, the rights and freedoms given to the people under the Constitution. While this State has an enormous amount of weapons in its arsenal to deal with crime, we must respond in a proportionate and measured manner.

Successive Governments have been wise not to react instantly to the injunctions of the tabloid media.

Last night, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform outlined the murder statistics in this State. He pointed out that most murders since 1997 are not, in so far as can be determined, gangland related. However, the statistics relating to the city I represent are somewhat different. There have been 40 murders in Limerick since 1997, most of them gang-related. The chief superintendent of the Limerick Garda division has supplied figures relating to these murders.

There were four murder investigations in 1997, all of which were successfully concluded and files were sent to the DPP. The four murder investigations in 1998 were all successfully concluded and files were sent to the DPP. All three murder investigations in 1999 were successfully concluded and files were sent to the DPP. The five murder investigations in 2000 were all successfully concluded and files were sent to the DPP. In 2001, all ten murder investigations were successfully concluded and files were sent to the DPP. Of the seven murder investigations in 2002, all have been successfully concluded with the exception of two cases still under active investigation. Files will be forwarded to the DPP on those cases in the near future. To date in 2003, there have been seven murder investigations, of which three have been successfully concluded and files sent to the DPP. A file is being prepared for submission to the DPP in one case while the remaining three cases are under active investigation. The record from 1997 to date is that 36 of 40 cases, 90%, have been solved.

Mr. F. McGrath

What about preventing those murders.

Mr. O'Dea

Those statistics tell us a number of things. They point to the major success of the Garda in Limerick in dealing with these murders, many of which are the product of organised crime. It also demonstrates that the gardaí can call on whatever assistance they need when they require it. While all human life is sacred and any murder is to be regretted, seven murders have been committed to date this year and ten murders occurred in 2001. That gives the lie to the notion that there is an unstoppable upsurge in the homicide rate in Limerick.

The one positive feature of last night's debate was the statement by Deputy Kenny who said he would support the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in the Government's attempt to tackle this latest problem in the criminal justice system. He did this while his spokesman on justice acted like the political version of an ambulance-chasing lawyer, jumping up and down with sanctimonious posturing and pretending that he had instant elixirs, instant solutions, a silver bullet, if the House will excuse the pun.

Mr. Deasy

The Minister of State has never been sanctimonious, has he?

Mr. O'Dea

We can and will solve this problem. The solution has already been put in place. I appeal to all sides of the House to stand in solidarity with the Government against these small criminal thugs who propose to take on the State. Let us support a proportionate response, one that will work rather than one that makes us feel good about ourselves. For goodness sake, let us resist the cartoon strip proposals advocated in certain sections of the media.

I have a list of items that Fine Gael failed to do while in government and, as it sickens me to look at it, I will not go through it again.

Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats have overseen the recruitment of 11,000 extra gardaí since 1997 and 12,023 extra prison places have been provided. The Garda budget has increased by 60%, from just over €600 million to €960 million this year and it will be over €1 billion next year. An unprecedented volume of criminal law reform has been introduced, as the members of the Select Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights fully realise.

We cannot be complacent. We must continue to work. I welcome the Minister's commitment to increase the Garda force to 12,200 by the end of 2004. I also welcome the fact that €38 million has been provided for prison capital projects this year and I commend the Minister for introducing the new public order and intoxicating liquor legislation, which has enhanced the power of the Garda to deal with public order offences. A new Garda Powers Bill will be introduced shortly, giving substantial additional powers to the Garda. In every way the Minister has worked effectively to improve the power and capacity of the Garda.

The problem of gangland murders must be solved. The Minister and the committed gardaí are in place to do that.

Mr. O'Connor

I am always happy to speak on a Private Members' motion. On this occasion I commend my colleagues from Fine Gael, and particularly Deputy Deasy, for giving us an opportunity to debate this issue and to applaud the work of the Garda Síochána, which we should do at every opportunity.

I am looking forward to supporting the Government's amendment in this evening's vote. The amendment makes reference to the Minister condemning the despicable action of those criminals who last week placed a hoax bomb under the car of a journalist who lives in my constituency. This was a disgraceful act. I join the Minister in congratulating the gardaí on their prompt action in discovering and dealing with the crime. I commend the Garda for dealing in a sensitive way with my constituents who were discommoded and had to be looked after in a local secondary school.

On occasions such as this political lines are drawn and political points are made. In a democracy that is fair enough. However, it is important that we remain focused on this issue. Since I became a Deputy and found myself lucky enough to be assigned to the Select Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, under the able chairmanship of Deputy Ardagh, I have learnt an enormous amount about the criminal justice system and the manner in which people's concerns can be dealt with. We should not be afraid to say that.

I am never afraid to mention my own constituency. Tallaght, despite the fact that it is the third largest population centre in the country, is a very safe place. In the last two days I have been upset to hear a negative image of The Square in Tallaght projected on the national airwaves, as far as crime is concerned. I am defensive about Tallaght and Dublin South-West. In a major population centre one will always have problems of crime and vandalism. I do not believe Tallaght is worse than anywhere else in that regard.

It is important that we support those people in our community who are fighting against lawlessness. We must support the Garda but also those community workers who take on tasks on drugs rehabilitation programmes, Garda diversion programmes and all the community activities that are so important in every community. I merely highlight my own community.

I do not wish to ambush the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform but remind him that there is an application with his Department regarding the STAY project in Scoil Íosa in Tymon north in Tallaght, which I commend to him. In considering how to deal with crime and the effects of crime we must continue to make funds available for the tremendous work being done by many diversionary projects. The project in Tymon north is worth supporting.

I represent more than 7,122 people in Dublin South-West who sent me here to do a job.

Ms Sexton

The recent collapse of a trial in the Central Criminal Court raises a number of important issues for our criminal justice system.

I am mindful of the Chair's reminder last night that there should be no appearance of an attempt by the Oireachtas to encroach on the functions of the courts. Nevertheless, the events that led to the collapse of the trial were a wake up call. They show the contempt some sections of our society have for the criminal justice system. We witnessed thugs, young and old, who act in the pursuit of financial gain and in defending those ill-gotten gains. The fact that in the process they destroy individual lives and degrade the quality of life in communities is a matter of no importance to them. Their main route to riches lies in trafficking in illegal drugs and they will not allow anyone or anything to stand in their way, not even their former accomplices.

One of the most powerful tools we have in fighting this scourge is the Criminal Assets Bureau. There are those on the Opposition benches who would assert that it was they who established the bureau in response to the organised crime crisis in 1996. It was the Proceeds of Crime Bill, introduced by the last Minster for Justice, Equality and Law Reform as a Private Members' Bill from the Opposition benches and accepted by the rainbow Government that provided the basis for the Act establishing the Criminal Assets Bureau.

Mr. Deasy

The details of the Bills were completely different. That is nonsense.

Ms Sexton

The bureau has gone on to have considerable success in preventing people engaged in criminal activities from retaining the proceeds of those activities.

The fight against organised crime must be waged on many levels. Organised crime makes huge profits on the backs of the unfortunate people who misuse drugs. To help tackle the problem, the Government has established local drugs task forces in areas experiencing the worst of drugs misuse. They involve local communities working with State agencies and voluntary organisations, ensure a fully integrated response to the drugs problem and are the central vehicle for the active participation of the community and voluntary sector working in conjunction with State agencies responding on the ground to the problem presented on the ground. All involved agree that the task forces play a key role in improving the situation on the ground. The Government has established regional drugs task forces in the regional health board areas. Most of them are now up and running successfully.

Organised crime is, more and more, becoming a multinational phenomenon. When crime and criminals cross borders, tackling that criminality can become quite complicated. We are too well aware of how Irish criminals are active in other countries. We have heard that organised crime knows no borders. Our experience suggests that organised criminals know borders only too well and how to exploit them to facilitate their activities. They have traditionally exploited the practical problem borders present for law enforcement agencies and the criminal justice systems, which tend to apply to specific jurisdictions.

These problems have been recognised at EU and at UN levels. As a result, steps have been taken to provide a legal framework in which law enforcement agencies can be given the tools to tackle cross-border crime properly. Examples within the European Union are the European arrest warrant and the new EU framework for joint investigative teams. These represent a practical recognition of the need for countries sharing the same problems to work together. They are not just exclusive to Ireland.

The UN Convention against Transnational Organised Crime commits governments to a range of measures to facilitate effective combating of organised crime. Ireland will ratify this convention shortly. It contains strong provisions, specifically in the areas of combating money laundering and, significantly, denying criminal groups access to legal businesses and markets. This last action is seen as a key strategy for preventing organised crime. Ireland is fully involved in these and other initiatives in the fight against gangs and organised crime.

In the face of the most radical overhaul of the criminal justice system since the foundation of the State, all we have heard from the Opposition is a set of superficially attractive and frequently unworkable solutions. It has spoken loosely about 40 or so gangs operating in the country. If we are to debate crime seriously, we need better information than this. The actual number of organised criminal groups is determined each year using the EU definition of organised crime, as in the EU situation report on organised crime. It is important to note that the most recently completed situation report identified 17 major organised crime groups in Ireland, about half of which operate in Dublin. More than 12 of these were investigated in 2002. This process is continuing this year and will continue in 2004 and thereafter until completed.

The Fine Gael motion criticises the Government's implementation of the RAPID programme, which targets the most concentrated areas of disadvantage in the country. I reject the contention that gangs and organised crime are in any way caused by social deprivation. Gang members are criminals, intent on becoming extremely wealthy by trafficking in people or by exploiting human misery in all its forms, especially those who abuse drugs.

The Government amendment to the motion states that the Government continues to be committed to the RAPID programme. The Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs has been active in its implementation and co-ordination. Since the establishment of the programme, the Department has provided approximately €3 million by way of support to the local areas in the preparation and implementation of their plans and administration costs. The RAPID programme can contribute significantly towards tackling disadvantage in urban areas and large towns. A provision of €5.8 million in the 2004 budget to the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs for the programme indicates the ongoing commitment of the Government to RAPID.

The Government recognises the importance of supporting and developing disadvantaged communities. The announcement earlier this month that a significant amount of the disbursements from the dormant accounts fund will be directed towards projects in areas designated by Government as suffering particular disadvantage is a significant boost for RAPID areas.

The attacks in the motion before the House have no validity. The Government's amendment sets out the true position. The Government has the matter under control, contrary to what those in the Opposition benches and others would like to portray. The fundamentals of our criminal justice system are sound. The adequacy of legislative provisions and resources allocated are under review.

A total of 55,000 extra hours were allocated in Garda overtime and were laughed at in the House. This number of hours, which accrued over a six week period, is significant. Garda numbers will continue to grow. The Garda budget for 2004 shows an increase of 10% on that of 2003. No one could suggest that this is not a significant increase. The specialist agencies of the Garda are working efficiently and effectively and our courts and prisons are well-resourced and doing their jobs.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform comprehensively addressed many of the specific issues raised by Opposition Members last night. Not only does the Government remain prepared to stand over its record of achievement in office and be judged on that, it also laid bare through the Minister last night the empty rhetoric of many members of the Opposition who seek to criticise it for the sake of doing so.

It is a fact that there is no magic solution to crime problems in Ireland or elsewhere, and this is why the Government has since 1997 engaged in a thorough and sustained campaign of reform and reorganisation of the criminal justice system. The Garda Síochána Bill under preparation represents the first major reform of the Garda since its inception. It offers Deputies from both sides of the House the opportunity to shape the nature of policing for decades to come. I hope the opportunity is used wisely by way of meaningful debate and discussion rather than as an opportunity to undermine the public perception of the force, as has happened recently.

Independent agencies have been established and allocated the necessary resources to run the courts and prisons effectively. The Minister is proceeding with a major reorganisation of the court system and, in particular, a reform of the criminal courts as recommended in Mr. Justice Fennelly's report.

The Opposition should not fail to condemn those who use violence and intimidation in pursuit of amassing illegal gains and those who are responsible for the deployment of huge resources that could be used more productively elsewhere. In light of what I have said and what the Minister said yesterday, I have no hesitation in commending the amendment to the motion to the House.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I wish to share my time with Deputies McHugh, Cowley, Finian McGrath, Connolly and Cuffe.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

The issues we are debating are complex, serious and important to the communities we represent. However, the motion is too simplistic and the Government response is self-congratulatory. The issues deserve better treatment. I agree with parts of the motion, especially the statement that the Government has failed to support the RAPID programme properly and to initiate measures to tackle social disadvantage. It has definitely exacerbated the crime problem. The RAPID programme is the slowest Government programme to date.

The Government has a responsibility to invest in crime reduction and I am greatly disappointed that the Estimates do not reflect this. Crime prevention measures have been cut back for the second year in a row. I take issue with the Minister's statement that the Government has allocated significant resources, amounting to €68 million, to initiatives to combat the drugs problem. This is almost the same amount the Government spent on the horse and greyhound racing fund this year. The Minister stated the Government had made a significant increase of 5% in spending on young people's services and facilities. Again, this is the same increase that has been proposed for the horse and greyhound racing fund. Therefore, the Government is sending out the message that it considers horses and dogs to be just as important as tackling the drugs problem and crime. This is a disgrace.

In my advice clinics, especially in working class areas, I am inundated by calls from parents and the elderly who believe their communities have been abandoned by the Garda and the State. Alienation from the Garda is increasing. The Government will have to face this problem, as may its successor.

I welcome the decision by the Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights to review current practice in other jurisdictions as well as the resourcing, operational and administrative issues related to policing and the court system. This is the responsible way to address the relevant issues. I echo Deputy Ardagh's call for the public to play a role in addressing submissions to the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights.

An effective and accountable policing service is necessary. The policing service in this State needs much more than increased funding and more gardaí, it needs to review how resources are deployed and whether this deployment meets local needs. Fundamental reform is required to make the service more locally accountable to the communities it serves. I disagree with the Minister's assertion yesterday that the deployment of Garda resources is a matter for the Garda Commissioner alone. If we want to restore community confidence, trust and support for the Garda Síochána, we must have greater transparency and accountability at local level with regard to deployment decisions.

As regards the Fine Gael Party motion, Sinn Féin cannot support the extended use of the Special Criminal Court.

Mr. Deasy

That is a big surprise.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

The court is an illegitimate instrument which has been criticised for decades not only by my party, but also by domestic and international human rights organisations and civil liberties groups. I agree with the Minister's assertion that the response to the crime problem must be resolute, proportional and focused, and that criminal justice in this State must strike a balance between punishing wrongdoers and protecting personal liberties and fundamental rights. I welcome his belief that a jury trial is one of the chief guarantors against oppressive misuse of State authority and one of the principal foundations of public confidence in the justice system. The dissolution of the Special Criminal Court is the only possible conclusion based on this logic.

Mr. McHugh

I am not sure if the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is aware that when he took office the word on the grapevine was that he would be a tough Minister. I was delighted when he was appointed to the job as I believed he would be a Minister with strong views who would come forward with strong proposals that would make a real difference and give a sense of worth to law-abiding citizens, but it gives me no joy to place on the record my grave disappointment with his performance to date.

The stark reality is that the criminals have put it up to the Minister and he has funked it. When criminals gave him two fingers, his response was to further undermine his standing and reputation by engaging in personal and insulting attacks on Members of the House, attacking journalists and the media and making comments to undermine the Garda Síochána. The Minister has highlighted his inability to deal with the matter by asking everybody else to come forward with proposals. He needs to realise that he is the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform with a Department and the full resources of the State behind him, and it is his job to make proposals, address the chronic position in which we find ourselves and ensure that ordinary law-abiding citizens can live in relative safety without fear for their lives and intimidation and without elderly people living in fear in their own homes. What is needed is determination to treat the troublemakers with the full rigours of the law by ensuring they are dealt with rapidly and harshly by the courts and stiff sentences are handed down and served in full. In summary, the Minister must take a no nonsense approach.

The truth is that much of the law breaking is being carried out by the same people time and again. They are self-styled hard chaws who have developed reputations, treat the Garda, courts and legal system with contempt and use the courts and environs as their stage for entertainment shows. When they use their appearances in court to enhance their reputation as hard men, the system facilitates it and they are accommodated and tolerated. They get away to have another laugh, brag with their mates and give two fingers to the institutions of the State and organised society. It is the Minister's duty to stop being in denial and get on with his job.

Dr. Cowley

Everybody is horrified by recent events. The Fine Gael Party is correct to table this motion. It is obvious that where there is disadvantage, certain people will become involved in criminality. The terrible pity is that areas have been ghettoised through a lack of recreational facilities and employment opportunities and it is sad that young people who could otherwise be involved in worthwhile activity end up getting involved in crime. Successive Governments must share the blame for this.

There is a great saying that prevention is better than cure. The answer must be to fight disadvantage in the first instance and provide the necessary recreational facilities and educational and employment opportunities. As I stated on previous occasions, we should create a special category to keep people on FÁS schemes in employment. This would have important benefits in terms of their self-esteem and would be well worth the additional expense to the Exchequer of €20 to €30 per week.

We have a job to do in addressing crime and must deal with criminals adequately and severely. Crime appears to be a soft touch as criminals would not commit crime unless it paid. The message must go out that it no longer pays, which cannot happen until criminals get caught. Those with knowledge of this issue tell us that a small number of hardened criminals are involved in crime. This group should be targeted, put under a microscope, harassed in every possible way using every available resource and dealt with. What happened to Paul Williams was utterly despicable. People who speak out should be supported.

Mr. F. McGrath

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to this motion on crime. In recent weeks we have seen an escalation in gangland violence and a major threat to the administration of justice. The shootings and killings have focused attention on a problem we have all known about for many years. It is essential that our response, as legislators, is thoughtful and considerate. I do not agree with those who argue that civil liberties must go out the window when one is dealing with crime. We need to deal with the causes of crime, have effective policing strategies and stand up to the bullies who are destroying our communities. To ignore disadvantaged communities and dysfunctional and violent children and teenagers is simply to walk away from the real solution to our crime problem.

We must also question and examine the management of Garda resources and target the small minority of extremely violent criminals. Crime prevention and public safety must be top of the agenda, otherwise we are codding ourselves and letting down the victims of crime. This debate should be about prevention measures, making the justice system work and making it fair, effective and relevant for our citizens.

Dismay and disillusionment with the way we tackle crime is widespread in society. I urge the Minister to listen to the sensible voices in our communities and those on the ground who deal with crime. In the next few weeks we will listen to and raise these ideas in the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights. I would appreciate if the Minister would take these ideas on board.

I strongly support the position that we should not rip up the Constitution when tackling crime. There is no case for new Garda powers. Eroding civil liberties still further should not be an option. Throwing tantrums in the House about law and order will not help the victims. Those who argue that changes in the law are the solution are utterly cynical. The way forward is to tackle social and economic disadvantage, bring back the mockeys, use CAB more often and make policing more effective.

Mr. Connolly

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate and compliment the Fine Gael Party on introducing the motion in Private Members' time. The criminals will not be at home tomorrow perusing the newspapers or watching "Oireachtas Report" to see what will happen or how their lives will pan out. The only major worry they have is getting caught. There is no need to introduce new laws to tackle the problem. What is required is the enforcement of the laws on the Statute Book and greater vigilance.

A significant increase in resources is also required. We have heard a great deal about the scarcity of resources.

During the election campaign 18 months ago we heard a great deal about the 2,000 extra gardaí. I do not believe this can ever become a reality. It takes approximately 14 months to train 675 new gardaí and this is followed by a two year probationary period. At the same time, however, 57 year old gardaí are compelled to retire from the force. These gardaí are at the peak of their careers. They have accumulated a vast amount of experience and knowledge, the type of knowledge one will not find in a book. This priceless jewel is being forced on to the retirement scrap heap. It is insane to allow this to continue.

A number of reports recommend that the compulsory retirement age should be increased to 60 years. There is no reason that it should not be increased to 62 or 63 years. We are wasting valuable resources. There is also the problem that gardaí who reach the age of 50 years can voluntarily retire. This means that a person can spend more time in retirement than doing the job. It costs money because a half salary must be paid to everyone who is allowed to slip through the system. The only way to build up the force is to stop the gardaí leaving the force.

The cause of this debate is the situation in Limerick, which has become a flashpoint. Part of the reason is that since 1980 the number of gardaí in Limerick has been halved. In the last seven years there have been approximately 40 murders and the gardaí are to be complimented on the fact that they have charged people in 35 of those cases. It is a fair compliment for a force coming under such pressure.

The gardaí know the criminal gangs. They must target the members of these gangs and throw a ring of steel around them. They must put them under surveillance, learn their habits and get to know the people with whom they associate. That is how they will tackle them.

Mr. Cuffe

I wish to read a letter written to the Taoiseach which was copied to our party leader, Deputy Sargent. I will then discuss Garda numbers and the wider causes of crime in society.

The letter is as follows:

I was sitting here this morning writing up my journal and I thought, where is this going to get me? What we need is some action and support.

I did not know whether to contact the Minister for families and children, the Minister for health, or the Minister for justice. I live in Swords. I know you are very familiar with it. Are you aware that the majority of teenagers in Swords (and everywhere, I am sure you have read the reports, seen the Prime Time programmes) are drinking and smoking cannabis? Are you aware that sixteen and seventeen year olds are able to get crates of beer from the off licences, without being asked for I.D.? Are you aware that it's easier get cannabis in Swords than cigarettes?

It's out of control of the parents Taoiseach, but most of all it's out of your control. You have some good people in your Dept. Mr. Martin and Seamus Brennan jump to mind, in tackling the pubs and the carnage on our roads but you need to tackle this. I urge you now Taoiseach, before it's too late (if it's not already too late).

We have children having babies. We have children (because that's all they are) killing each other over mobile phones (Laois and Coolock to mention but two). I am a mother of two teenagers. I have never worked outside the home since they were born, and believe me Taoiseach I don't know what the answer is. But I know this much, it could be any of our sons out there doing these evil things, because the drink and drugs are out of control.

Do something now Taoiseach.

That letter is from a constituent of my party leader, Deputy Sargent. It sums up the concerns parents have about crime and their children.

There was an increase in Garda numbers last year and there will be an increase this year. However, that increase is less than the increase in any of the previous five years. In other words, the rate of increase is slowing substantially. At the same time, the population has increased dramatically. The number of gardaí per thousand people has decreased. We have fewer gardaí per head of population than four years ago. There are not enough gardaí and that is a part of the problem that must be addressed. I am not convinced we are getting the number of recruits required.

However, we need to do more than recruit gardaí at entrance level. The Garda Síochána should be recruiting people at senior levels and benefiting from the resources and expertise people have gathered from years in the private sector and, perhaps, from time spent abroad. We should also encourage people from the UK and the US who are familiar with modern crime tackling techniques to join the force.

There is more involved in this problem than increasing the number of gardaí, giving them better training and recruiting better gardaí in the first place. We must look at what we are doing when we build communities. New homes are being built many miles from the nearest bus stop and shop and without sports facilities or playgrounds. If we are to prevent an increase in criminality in the years to come, we must build good communities in the first instance. The recent increase in gangland criminality proves that. If attention is not paid to creating good communities in the first place, there will be an increase in crime.

At present, we are sowing the seeds of future criminality but we can stop it by doing a few simple things. We need to build good, mixed use communities with the facilities needed to encourage people to participate in civil society. That covers everything from providing a playgroup to child care to ensuring that community employment schemes are not cut back. We must also ensure that the resources are available. The gardaí must be in these communities in the first instance and be given the right tools to tackle problems.

Fighting gangland criminality is making the headlines but it is a more difficult task to address the root causes of crime by building decent communities. Resources must be devoted to those areas if criminality in Irish society is to be tackled.

Mr. G. Mitchell

I thank my colleague, Deputy Deasy, for giving us the opportunity to debate this important matter. Three quarters of all prisoners in Mountjoy Prison come from approximately five identifiable areas in Dublin. There are no prizes for guessing the areas and I will not stigmatise them by naming them. However, I am not talking about Ballsbridge, Foxrock, Castleknock or Malahide.

I make no excuse for prisoners. The people in prison deserve to be there. However, if we, as public representatives and legislators who are charged with the control of the public purse and with protecting the common good, do not address the causes of crime, we will contribute to a recurring phenomenon. If we know that five areas of Dublin produce so many convicted criminals, why do we not try an area based approach to deal with the causes of crime?

Research shows that a child who grows up in a family without a father present is 22 times more likely to commit a crime than someone who grows up with their father present. This research was carried out in Wisconsin, the only US State which compiles research in this manner. This is not to take from the heroic efforts of single parents. Indeed, I grew up in a single parent home and I salute the many single parents who prevent their children getting involved in crime. However, if one happens to be a single mother living in one of the five areas I mentioned, she faces tremendous odds regardless of how good a parent she is. This is an issue we should address. How can we assist the struggling parents who are doing their best?

As Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach with responsibility for local development, I designated the additional 24 areas which increased from 11 pilot areas to 35 the number of area based partnership boards. The objective of these boards is to treat the causes of disadvantage. Some have discharged their responsibilities well and some not so well but the idea is good. In Dublin, the drugs task forces have been based on the same geographical boundaries. Within those boundaries there has been an attempt to create policing forums. However, these are hit and miss affairs. In the Rialto policing forum, attempts to secure the services of an administrator who might follow up issues in between meetings involving the Garda, Dublin City Council, the local community and public representatives have failed. If these area policing forums were expanded, especially in the five identifiable areas to which I referred, to include the educational and health authorities, they could be made to deliver a co-ordinated response to the needs of the community.

Meetings as they stand are useful because at least they help to keep communications open. However, these forums are not effective across the board and they could become more targeted and effective with a little effort, some planning and much determination. Such forums could regularly be thrown open to the local community in parish hearings where people would be regularly invited to attend and voice their opinions to those paid to deliver services. With follow-up meetings occasionally, there could be a measurable response to the needs of the community.

Recidivism is a major problem and sometimes prisons seem like centres for recycling offenders. I do not know what the international best practice is in regard to penal reform, but could an Ireland which experienced the Celtic tiger not have put more effort into prison reform? Recidivists form a sub-culture in society. They are constantly excluded when in prison and stay part of that sub-culture when they leave.

The Minister said that the Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights is to hold hearings on the needs of the criminal justice system if it is to be effective. I look forward to these hearings, which I hope are not a continuation of some form of public relations exercise, and to the plans on reform of the system. Simply proposing more laws will not do.

Over the years the response to criminal activity has been to promise more laws. The Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform boasted that they have passed a law per year for the past 40 years. That is correct. In fact, we have passed 40 criminal justice Acts since 1973 and the Minister in his opening statement last night proposed a further criminal justice Act early in the new year. If all this law were put before the Dáil in one, four or five Acts, alarm bells would ring and we would question whether all this law was needed.

At present, gardaí can obtain from Eircom the details of phone calls made by TDs and journalists and without a court order or anyone knowing. Gardaí have been given extensive powers. I am prepared to contemplate giving them additional powers if necessary, but when do we ever rescind law which is bad or not working? All law and no order is no way to run a criminal justice system. What we have is all law and no order.

In his speech last night the Minister stated:

The Garda Commissioner has informed me today that in the 12 month period November 2002 to the end of October 2003, public order offences have sharply declined by 9% and violent assaults are down by more than 14%.

With no disrespect to the Garda Commissioner or anyone else, how can we measure the effectiveness of the Garda or the need for resources without an independent assessment of the true level of crime and the effectiveness of remedies? Dúirt bean liom go ndúirt bean léi will not suffice. If we cannot measure the level of crime we cannot combat it. Our refusal to measure the level of crime and deal with it is at the heart of the failure of the criminal justice system.

I contrast the way the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform does his business – a word with the Commissioner which the Minister jots down and trots out in the House as if it were gospel – with how the issue was dealt with in another jurisdiction, New York, for example, under the leadership of the former mayor, Rudy Giuliani. The centrepiece of the efforts in New York was a process called Compstat. I want to spend some time elaborating on this issue because we can all throw around allegations in the House. I will put forward a proposal that I want examined. Many of these problems could be tackled if we had a hands-on Minister in the way the former mayor, Mr. Giuliani, was hands-on in New York instead of a part-time Minister who is also President of the Progressive Democrats and who promises Minister of State jobs to anyone who will run for them.

Compstat combined two techniques, neither of which had been previously implemented. First, crime statistics were collected and analysed each day to recognise patterns and potentially troublesome behaviour before it spread. At the Compstat meetings the data was used to hold each borough command responsible. Some 100 policemen at a time, from top brass to officers, joined by others from throughout the criminal justice system would be convened in a big room in which each command's statistics faced scrutiny.

According to the former mayor, Mr. Giuliani, in his book, Leadership, they next set about determining who bought into the idea of accountability and who did not. Bureaucracies sometimes resisted change because they thought large ships could not be turned around. In the view of the mayor, even the largest organisations comprised people who either bought into Compstat or were told to find another line of work.

Mr. B. Lenihan

The mayor was allowed to reduce the salaries of non-performers.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Even in a highly unionised workforce like the New York Police Department, he found that there was plenty of leverage available. According to his own account, anyone above the rank of captain, deputy inspector, inspector, assistant chief, deputy chief, bureau chief and chief of the department could be demoted. This was not just a knock to morale but to their pensions as well. Those below the management ranks could be re-assigned. A police officer who lived in Westchester might find himself or herself stationed in Staten Island. Any manager who did not have their heart in the new system was made to understand that it was time to retire or face demotion. Those in the force who realised that Compstat would not only improve their city but also make their jobs more rewarding were promoted and entrusted with leadership roles.

At the same time, they set their sights on clarifying the purpose of the police department and crafting indicators to show whether goals were being met. This is again a case of accountability. As the former mayor, Mr. Giuliani, pointed out, crimes occur for a daunting and complex set of reasons, sometimes for no reason at all. It is simply not possible to predict where and when every crime will occur, but to try one must at least know what is going on.

In New York for years, the statistics in the police department that drew the most attention were the number of arrests and the reaction time to emergency calls. In fact, they found neither public safety nor reducing crime is the ultimate goal of a police force. Usually, a crime had already occurred by the time 911 was dialled. If an arrest took place, that only put a dent in future crime the perpetrator might have committed rather than protecting the immediate victim. Furthermore, they found that they needed reliable data. Arrest numbers, for example, were susceptible to manipulation.

They knew they had to come up with criteria apart from arrests and response times. Each year for all the cities in America with populations in excess of 100,000 the FBI reported the number of crimes in each of seven categories – murder, rape, robbery, felonious assaults, burglary, grand larceny and grand larceny auto. The main frustration with the state of policing was that each set of statistics was obsolete by the time it was available. Examining the numbers annually or even quarterly did not accomplish anything in real time. By the time a pattern of crime was noticed it would have changed. When the statistics finally came in, even for huge numbers of crimes, they did not reflect the actual volume.

The reason was simple. For a crime to register, someone had to report it or the police had to find out about it. Statistics covered only the crimes the police knew had occurred. Also in New York it was found that, as crime escalates, a smaller percentage of it is reported because a victim must have confidence that the authorities can and will respond in an effective way.

When people were first told that they could access statistics on a daily basis, they thought it was an exaggeration. Most of them smiled like the Ministers opposite are smiling now. No police department anywhere was gathering data with that frequency. It was thought it would take two or three years to implement the system. It was an ambitious goal at the time, but the first statistics began to arrive within three weeks.

According to Giuliani it works this way. The police officer in the street makes a report and enters it into his precinct's on-line complaints system. The report is transmitted to the Compstat mainframe and entered into two places: on a map that shows geographical concentrations of criminal activity and sorts them by hour of day, type of crime, and day and week; and on a weekly summary of crime complaints that displays trends over a variety of periods, such as a week to date, month to date, and year to date, and compares the current year's total with the prior year and percentage changes.

The data can only result in a meaningful response if it is accurate. They implemented an auditing system. This system would flag statistically unrealistic performance, allowing them to dig deeper into its accuracy. There were even commanders removed for tinkering with the numbers. At their management meetings, they could ask questions such as, "Why are car thefts down 20% citywide, but up 10% in your area?" or "Explain why assaults have been falling for six straight months until last month, then started rising."

They made it difficult for evasion by requiring that precinct commanders' entire staff be present. In this way those who performed well could be recognised; those who under-performed could also be recognised. The resources they had were used to tackle specific crime in areas of greatest need. Where is the comparable accountability on crime measurement in the Irish policing system?

The Minister made much in his opening comments about Opposition criticism last night. Is what I have said fair and reasonable or is it abusive? Is what I have said something that should be studied? Do not let any Member say I do not have the right to raise these questions. Not only have I an absolute right but I have a duty to do so. We cannot tackle what we cannot measure.

There needs to be a root and branch reform of the Garda Síochána which includes accountability, reward for effort, praise for those who make the effort and criticism for those who do not pull their weight. It is a long time now since I published a Bill seeking the creation of a bureau for crime statistics which would be independent. Perhaps the Minister would take a leaf out of Giuliani's book and give some leadership on this issue. There is a need for measurement and accountability.

I have not spent a good part of my speech on this issue for no reason. I have thought about this and have put forward proposals which I ask the Minister to take on board. Giuliani turned around New York and the police force did not suffer. Those who worked got greater reward. For those in the Garda force of some 10,000 people there are some stumers but most of them are good people. The good should be rewarded and the stumours weeded out. The Minister cannot do that by coming telling the House the Garda Commissioner told him on his way in that crime had gone down by 14%. That will not wash. Dúirt bean liom go ndúirt bean leí will not do any more. We need a professional measurement of the position and accountability. We need some way of measuring what is being done with the resources provided by this House.

I do not have the exact figures to hand, but I know from a previous parliamentary question that the number of judges in the last 40 years has either tripled or quadrupled. Unlike Deputies, judges do not have to stand for election and are permanent and pensionable. When they take recesses, unlike Deputies, by and large they take a break. I am all for benchmarking of Deputies and I would have no difficulty with some group being set up to review our work practices and how we allocate our time between the Dáil, committees, the constituency, the party and such like.

It is time some independent body monitored the work rate of judges and set out some measure of how it is expected they should earn their salaries. If they are to get benchmarking pay increases like everyone else in the public service, they should be asked to give something in return.

I see no mention of this in any of the Minister's utterances about reform of the Judiciary. Furthermore, I am very nervous about any suggestions coming from the Minister in that regard. I am sorry if what I have to say provokes him, but perhaps we need to have some provocation here. The Minister is an insider when it comes to his dealings with his friends and colleagues in the courts. Any suggestion that the constitutional right of the Oireachtas to remove a judge should in any way be subject to a recommendation from a group of judges, or any attempt to water down the independence of the Oireachtas in that regard, should be resisted tooth and nail.

Let us see some real reform of the Judiciary. Let us see some accountability for the salaries they are paid, especially in terms of hours worked. Being independent is one thing, being accountable is different. We do not have to interfere with the independence of judges in discharging their responsibilities to require them to be more accountable for the salaries they receive.

It is time to ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to carry out some independent review of the fees being charged to the State for various functions discharged by lawyers. To put it mildly, we are not getting anything like value for money and many millions could be saved. If that money could be diverted to the fight against crime, or better still to the fight against the causes of crime, all the better.

It gives me no pleasure to raise this matter but I feel a duty to do so. Twice in the past month Vincent Browne wrote in The Sunday Business Post that gardaí routinely perjure themselves. I was appalled to read this, but I was even more appalled not to see any refutation either by the Minister for Justice or the Garda Commissioner. Perhaps there was a refutation and I missed it. I want the Minister to respond to Vincent Browne tonight when he replies to this debate. Is what Mr. Browne said true or untrue? If it is true, we have a serious matter on our hands which goes right to the heart of the training of the Garda about the gravity of such an offence. If it is not true, it should not be allowed stand. Twice in the past month, Vincent Browne made that statement and I ask the Minister either to contradict him or clarify what he had to say. One way or the other, that statement should not be allowed stand. It is far too serious an allegation not to be raised in this House and it needs to be addressed.

I ask the Minister to tell the House how regularly an independent assessment of the method of training of gardaí is carried out and where these reports go. Surely it is time to have more regular evaluation of the training of gardaí which can be made public and which then can be made available to Deputies and others who make policy so that Garda training keeps abreast of best international practice.

I am pleased the Minister is present to hear I was very disappointed with his contribution last night. A Minister who has much ability and showed a great deal of promise made a bad and testy speech. It was made almost in the way it was typed. It was awkward and had nothing positive to contribute to the debate. The Minister should give more serious and considered attention to issues of this kind when they are raised here.

Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Mr. B. Lenihan)

I thank Deputy Mitchell for drawing to my attention and the attention of the Minister the comments made by Vincent Browne. Of course, I entirely refute the suggestion that gardaí have habitually or routinely perjured themselves. I am pleased the Deputy has extended to me an opportunity to put that on the record. It is a most improper and outrageous suggestion. The Deputy will appreciate that Ministers in Government see their duty as performing their duties and not chasing every story in print. Were we to occupy ourselves with such matters there would not be much time left to perform our duties. I refute entirely that suggestion. It was, as Deputy Mitchell pointed out, quite improper of any commentator to suggest that the Garda routinely perjure themselves in the courts.

Deputy Gay Mitchell's contribution was of interest to me. In some respects it was constructive but it was at variance with the tone of the motion tabled by his party. One of the crucial paragraphs in that motion is the one which suggests Dáil Éireann, "believing that the failure of the Government to properly support the RAPID Programme [a proposition which is debatable] in order to tackle the roots of social disadvantage has exacerbated the crime problem." Does anyone seriously believe that? Would Fine Gael have put forward such a motion in the time of Liam Cosgrave or any other leader the party has had since?

In the intercensal period for which we have the records, 1996-2002, some 386,000 additional jobs were created here, many in the areas once characterised as disadvantaged. The best social programme is a job. Several Opposition Members, not confined to Fine Gael, gave us extended lectures on social philosophy this evening. We all know the fundamental problem is that the increase in employment has thrown into relief a particularly nasty group of individuals who are posing a very serious problem to the criminal justice system. We face a challenge but let us not relate it to talk about a RAPID programme because the persons engaging in these vile activities are not interested in RAPID programmes, recreational facilities or such matters. Of course we have to tackle the roots of delinquency which are many and varied, depending on the type of crime involved. The recent collapse of the Central Criminal Court trial sitting in Limerick was a serious matter, and the development of a gangland culture, not alone in Limerick but in the inner city and suburban parts of Dublin, is also very serious. These matters must be tackled.

The Minister has a good record this year. He has secured a significant increase in the Garda Vote for next year, €91 million, a 10% increase, well ahead of the rate of inflation. I was interested in Deputy Mitchell's comments on the experience in New York but it is not easy to transplant the cultural experience of other countries to this jurisdiction. The Deputy did not include in the motion the suggestion that gardaí should be demoted on performance grounds or have their pensions docked on a similar basis.

Mr. G. Mitchell

It is an interesting idea for the Minister of State to put forward.

Mr. B. Lenihan

I do not know what accountability the Deputy is trying to introduce into the system but the Minister has a Bill on accountability and he now receives very detailed monthly figures through the Pulse system so there is a comparable statistical base here. That element of accountability is not missing. I am driven to conclude that the accountability which Deputy Mitchell wants to introduce is that of demotion and docking pensions. If the Opposition wants to put that forward as a serious proposition it should do so and debate it instead of piggybacking it on another motion.

The motion is a scattergun approach to the issues about which we are all concerned. The Minister has secured additional funding and he will bring the force up to its maximum authorised strength of 12,200 as soon as possible. He has managed his budgetary resources well enough this year to ensure that he has €2 million to target the matters which he has to target and he has tackled the issue of prison overtime. I hope the Opposition will support us on that in the weeks ahead because if savings are effected on prison overtime and if we can effect a permanent change in the culture of prison management, more resources will be available for the Garda Síochána to pay for overtime and to assist and reassure the public, as I want to do, that the Government is determined to tackle this problem.

Mr. Noonan

I wish to share time with Deputy Deasy.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Noonan

When the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform was appointed I thought he would be very good, through his family background he would understand the importance of the job to which he was appointed, by profession, particularly as a prosecution lawyer, he would have seen the problems close up and as Attorney General he would have gained a good insight into the policy position and the policies that were required. His political experience would have given him the astuteness to be able to deal with the issues and mobilise the forces at his disposal in the criminal justice system. I hold a different view now. The Minister has failed the test at the first serious challenge to his authority. The drugs trade, the gun trade and the murder trade are now out of control and criminal gangs are literally and metaphorically giving the two fingers to the criminal justice system.

The Minister's defence seems to be that there is no real crisis, that we are seeing a rise on the graphs, but to take serious action would do violence to the Constitution. It is possible to quote from different sections of the Constitution but I will quote from Article 40.2 on the personal rights of individuals: "The State shall. in particular, by its laws protect as best it may from unjust attack and, in the case of injustice done, vindicate the life, person, good name, and property rights of every citizen." This year there have been 19 gangland murders, 15 in Dublin and four in Limerick.

That is what I am doing. Intimidation is widespread in Limerick. I have given two examples. The third example is a murder case in which the person who was working as a doorman at a particular club was scheduled to appear in court as a witness to a minor offence. The gardaí in Limerick believe that he was murdered because his evidence for a minor offence would have triggered the lifting of a suspended sentence on a serious criminal. The office of the State solicitor in Limerick has been petrol-bombed. The house of a junior counsel who is a State pros ecutor in Limerick has been set on fire. The offices of a State solicitor in the county have been burgled and a prosecution file stolen. Yet the Minister tells me that there is no crisis in the criminal justice system.

There have been four murders in Limerick since the beginning of the year. Most of the gangland murders are in Dublin and there seems to be no interest in what is happening in Dublin. The cases are not proceeding to court because the intimidation in gangland Dublin and in the communities affected is as strong as in Limerick. There is a challenge to the criminal justice system and an iron fist is required to deal with it, but the Minister has failed in that.

Ministers are frequently challenged. In the 1970s the Provisional IRA posed a challenge to which Pat Cooney and Desmond O'Malley rose. In the 1980s the Provisional IRA was still active and launched a campaign in the Republic. It challenged the State and those of us who were in power at the time rose to the challenge. In the 1990s when criminal gangs challenged the State and the outrageous murder of Veronica Guerin challenged the right of the media to comment, Nora Owen and the Government rose to the challenge.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is being challenged now and is bottling out. It is not about reform of the law and not about special courts. It is not about anything but the leadership coming from the Minister's office which is needed to give the Garda the resources it needs to deploy the gardaí properly and to take on the gangs.

The State has to win these challenges. The Minister is not even rising to the challenge at the moment, and if he lets it slide, gangs that are now becoming strong because of the availability of money from drugs and of guns coming from the Continent through the UK will strengthen to the point that the Minister's successors will find it extremely difficult to deal with the situation at all.

I know there are social causes for crime, and we could all talk about them, but the crisis we face now must be dealt with now. Other issues must be dealt with in parallel or subsequently, but as in the past when the challenge came from subversives or criminals, the Minister of the day must lead the counter attack. The challenge must be met and faced down, and all the resources of the State must be used to face it down.

In all sincerity, and I am not making false complimentary comments, there are many people like me around the country who are disappointed in the Minister's leadership at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. They had great expectations that he would be very effective, and he is not.

Mr. Deasy

I thank my Fine Gael colleague who participated in this debate. We got a real insight tonight into the delusional fantasy world of the Progressive Democrats. A Member of this House actually questioned any link between social deprivation and the levels of crime in some areas. That was unbelievable. It shows the sort of ivory tower the Progressive Democrats live in.

One of the most noticeable or striking aspects of the speech last night by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform was his attempt to attach blame for the lowering of morale in the Garda Síochána to the Opposition spokespeople. He said that the Garda has for the last 18 months been under a constant bombardment of morale-sapping criticism from the Opposition parties in this House, and that week in, week out, Opposition Members accuse members of the Garda of impropriety and misbehaviour. That is a real indication of how worried the Minister is about the extent of the damage done to his relationship with the Garda. It is a clear indication that he has managed to put himself under immense pressure because of the really incredible things he has said about the Garda.

I will give a sample of what gardaí are saying. Last weekend a retired inspector said that the Minister has lost the respect of the force with his insidious slur that gardaí were taking bribes, that he had greatly offended the entire force with that slur, that morale in the force was shattered, and that the blame lay to a great extent with the Minister. Regarding the allegations about journalists bribing gardaí, the GRA said that the issue has done untold damage to the force and has blackened it.

Gardaí have come to the conclusion that the Minister likes listening to his own voice and has grown very fond of the sound of it. The GRA said that the Minster gets almost ecstatic at the very idea of a microphone or a camera being pointed in his direction. That is what the gardaí think of him.

The Minister said statistics reveal that violent crimes against the person fell consistently during the first nine months of this year. Yesterday we got the SAVI report, a report commissioned by the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre and conducted by the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland. It showed that 21,000 women are victims of sexual assault each year and that a woman is raped in this country every 19 minutes. The key statistic is that only one out of 12 women reports rape to the Garda.

While the Minister spouts statistics and tries to reassure people that the situation is improving, people have lost faith in the criminal justice system and have stopped reporting crime. Time and again I have heard the Minister make these rah-rah speeches when a little pressure is applied. The Minister turns up the volume a little, injects the odd cutesy phrase and the nice soundbite –"Do not rip up the Constitution", or "I know what I know", or "We are winning the war on crime" or "The gangsters' day will come". That is wearing thin. People have begun to see right through the Minister.

As I said last night, people are now no safer than they were when the Minister took office. We need to treat these gangs like terrorists and we need to smash them. This Government has made promises on crime but has reneged on them again and again. The administration of justice is now being threatened. The Minister should be warned that his rhetoric and his denial are growing old, and that his clever speeches will not obscure the reality of a worsening situation.

Amendment put.

Tá

Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, Barry.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Niall.Brady, Johnny.Callanan, Joe.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Cassidy, Donie.Collins, Michael.Coughlan, Mary.Cregan, John.Curran, John.Davern, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Hoctor, Máire.

Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Seamus.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McDowell, Michael.McEllistrim, Thomas.McGuinness, John.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.Nolan, M. J.Ó Cuív, Éamon.Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donovan, Denis.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned. Tá–continued

O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Peter.Sexton, Mae.

Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Wilkinson, Ollie.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Boyle, Dan.Breen, Pat.Broughan, Thomas P.Bruton, John.Burton, Joan.Connolly, Paudge.Costello, Joe.Coveney, Simon.Cowley, Jerry.Crawford, Seymour.Crowe, Seán.Cuffe, Ciarán.Deasy, John.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard J.Enright, Olwyn.Gilmore, Eamon.Gogarty, Paul.Gormley, John.Harkin, Marian.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Michael D.Hogan, Phil.Howlin, Brendan.Kehoe, Paul.Lynch, Kathleen.McCormack, Padraic.

McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Finian.McGrath, Paul.McHugh, Paddy.Mitchell, Gay.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Murphy, Gerard.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Pattison, Seamus.Penrose, Willie.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Eamon.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Sherlock, Joe.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.

Amendment declared carried.

Question put: "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to."

Tá

Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, Barry.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Niall.Brady, Johnny.Callanan, Joe.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Cassidy, Donie.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cregan, John.Curran, John.Davern, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Hoctor, Máire.

Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Seamus.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McDowell, Michael.McEllistrim, Thomas.McGuinness, John.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.Nolan, M. JÓ Cuív, Éamon.Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donovan, Denis.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned. Tá–continued

O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Peter.Sexton, Mae.

Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Wilkinson, Ollie.

Níl

McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Finian.McGrath, Paul.McHugh, Paddy.Mitchell, Gay.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Murphy, Gerard.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Pattison, Seamus.Penrose, Willie.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Eamon.Ryan, Seán.Sherlock, Joe.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Durkan and StaggQuestion declared carried.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 19 Nov 2003