Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Nov 2003

Vol. 575 No. 1

Order of Business.

Minister for Agriculture and Food (Mr. Walsh)

It is proposed to take No. 5, Public Health (Tobacco) (Amendment) Bill 2003 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to adjourn at 3.30 p.m. if not previously concluded; No. 24, Residential Tenancies Bill 2003 – Second Stage (resumed). It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 4.45 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 7.30 p.m.

The Dáil shall sit tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. and shall adjourn not later than 4 p.m. There shall be no Order of Business within the meaning of subsections (2) and (3) of Standing Order 26 and any divisions demanded shall be postponed until immediately after the Order of Business on Tuesday, 25 November 2003. Accordingly, the following business shall be transacted in the following order: No. 24, Residential Tenancies Bill 2003 – Second Stage, resumed, which shall be brought to a conclusion at 1 p.m. if not previously concluded; No. 6, European Arrest Warrant Bill 2003 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage; and No. 25, statements on Hanly report, to be taken not later than 1 p.m., to conclude not later than 4 p.m. if not previously concluded and the Order shall not resume thereafter.

Mr. Naughten

Where is the Cabinet?

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two proposals before the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed?

Mr. Kenny

It must be a sign of Government confidence that it is able to send in the Minister for Agriculture and Food on his own to take on the combined might of the Opposition.

A Deputy

He is the Lone Ranger.

Mr. Kenny

Given that the Minister did such a good job in Punchestown, the Government must think he is able to take us all on.

Mr. Carey

We punch above our weight.

Mr. Kenny

I take this opportunity to wish the Irish troops going to Liberia this morning as the first part of a peacekeeping mission every good fortune and a safe journey. This mission is not without danger and the coming months will be a trying time for them and their families. I commend them for their courage and bravery and hope they will return successfully having completed their tour of duty.

I am not happy with the Order of Business, particularly in respect of No. 25—

An Ceann Comhairle

We are debating the late sitting.

Mr. Kenny

I have no objection to the late sitting.

Mr. Rabbitte

I support the remarks made by Deputy Kenny on the Liberian mission. I congratulate the Government on timing it for this morning as it means the senior ranking Minister cannot be in the Chamber to take the Order of Business. I am sure this is a consolation devoutly desired by the Government and it has sent in the safe hands of the Minister for Agriculture and Food. I thought he might have at least brought the second member of the Punchestown duo with him. Are these vacant seats a sign that Ministers are roaming around the country stirring up opposition to the Hanly report?

An Ceann Comhairle

This does not arise under our debate on the late sitting. Is the Deputy opposed to the late sitting?

Mr. Rabbitte

It arises in the sense that we clearly cannot even have an early sitting. The only Minister in attendance is the only Minister that is not stirring up opposition to the Hanly report.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, do you have a question on the late sitting?

Mr. Rabbitte

The late sitting is not the answer to Dáil reform.

An Ceann Comhairle

Dáil reform does not arise. We are talking about the late sitting tonight.

Mr. Rabbitte

I am talking about the late sitting.

An Ceann Comhairle

You are not. The Chair has ruled.

Mr. Rabbitte

You misunderstand, a Cheann Comhairle, I am saying that extending the hours the Dáil sits on a Thursday night is not the way to deal with the question of Dáil reform either in the interest of the staff of the Houses or of Deputies. My party, Fine Gael and the Green Party have put forward proposals. The Labour Party proposal, a major document, was presented to the Government Whip. Regrettably, it only received coverage in so far as it related to the organisation of sitting time in the House, which was a relatively minor aspect of a major document. For members of the Government to respond to the criticism of the infrequency of their appearance in the House and of the tendency to cause the House to close down at the least excuse by extending the sitting hours in the anti-social fashion being done here is not the way to address Dáil reform. For that reason I am opposed to it.

Cecilia Keaveney

Why is it anti-social?

Mr. Rabbitte

The Tánaiste is the one who said family friendly policies were the reason for rising.

Cecilia Keaveney

Does Deputy Rabbitte want family friendly measures?

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

As well as proper accountability.

Mr. Rabbitte

Deputy Keaveney must know that the Minister for Social and Family Affairs is in trouble.

Cecilia Keaveney

Deputy Rabbitte has a problem with female Deputies.

(Interruptions).

Mr. M. Higgins

It must be the Estimates that are causing all this.

Mr. Gormley

I join others in wishing our troops well in Liberia. This is, perhaps, one of the most dangerous missions our troops have ever been on. On behalf of the Green Party, I wish them well in their duties. They are superbly trained and capable of doing the job. May God protect them in their work.

We are always told the Government is interested in Dáil reform. What we have here is frenetic activity just before Christmas. When we were students we were told not to cram, and this is an example of cramming. It is not the way to do business. Let us have real Dáil reform, as has been advocated by my colleague, Deputy Boyle, in his paper. I ask the Government Whip to consider his suggestions. This is not the way to legislate. If the Government is serious about Dáil reform, and I have my doubts, Ministers should listen to what the Opposition parties are saying and get real about Dáil reform.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I join other Deputies in wishing the members of the Defence Forces well in their term in Liberia. I echo the hope that they will all return home safely at the conclusion of their term of service.

It is broadly recognised that the proposition for business today and tomorrow does not equate with Dáil reform. We have a substantive project to address. A little deal was done which allowed the Taoiseach to absent himself on Thursdays, but I was not aware that it applied to a significant number of the other members of the Cabinet and to many other backbench members of Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats.

Mr. Cregan

The Deputy's party is small enough this morning.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I hope there will be greater participation on Thursdays and Fridays in the future and that the Taoiseach will be made accountable to the House, particularly on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays. Maybe all the Ministers are off canvassing for other parties in the Northern election.

Mr. Walsh

On behalf of the Government, I wish to be associated with the good wishes to the troops going to Liberia. I hope they will arrive back safely.

Friday sittings allow approximately six hours of quality time—

Mr. Rabbitte

We have not got to Friday's sitting yet. We are discussing this evening's late sitting.

Mr. Walsh

Friday sittings allow an extra six hours and there will be an additional three hours of extra time this evening.

Mr. Ring

Where are the Ministers? This hypocrisy annoys me. They are flying around their constituencies.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Walsh

The additional three hours on Thursday evening facilitate the Opposition, which is constantly calling for more time for debate and legislation. There is important legislation to be attended to before the Christmas recess and we are facilitating the Opposition in that request.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

This is a charade to allow Ministers to tour their constituencies.

Mr. McCormack

Will the Tánaiste be here tomorrow?

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with the late sitting be agreed to."

Tá

Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Callanan, Joe.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Cassidy, Donie.Collins, Michael.Connolly, Paudge.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Cowley, Jerry.Cregan, John.Curran, John.Davern, Noel.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Ellis, John.

Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Harkin, Marian.Haughey, Seán.Hoctor, Máire.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Seamus.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McEllistrim, Thomas. Tá–continued

McGuinness, John.McHugh, Paddy.Martin, Micheál.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Nolan, M.J.Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Flynn, Noel.

O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Seán.Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Wallace, Dan.Walsh, Joe.Wilkinson, Ollie.

Níl

Boyle, Dan.Broughan, Thomas P.Burton, Joan.Connaughton, Paul.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard J.Gilmore, Eamon.Gogarty, Paul.Gormley, John.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Michael D.Hogan, Phil.Howlin, Brendan.Kehoe, Paul.

Kenny, Enda.Lynch, Kathleen.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Olivia.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.O'Sullivan, Jan.Penrose, Willie.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Sherlock, Joe.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Upton, Mary.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with the sitting and business of the Dáil tomorrow agreed to?

Mr. Kenny

I am glad the Punchestown duo has now arrived. I do not know whether the House will get a full report following yesterday's meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts and its visit to Punchestown.

I agree with Deputy Rabbitte and others who have spoken about effective Dáil reform. It would be hypocritical not to support Friday sittings. However, this should not just be for the purposes of being seen to be meeting. There will be no opportunity for Members to ask questions or have a vote during tomorrow's sitting. It seems that having the Dáil sit on a Friday is merely for optics and that the House can be run with a skeleton crew.

There is consternation among the public about the implementation of the Hanly report, which is referred to in No. 25 on the Order Paper. I note that the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture and Food, Deputy Treacy, became the latest Minister to break ranks when he stated there would be no downgrading of Portiuncula Hospital on his watch.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is moving away from the proposal.

Mr. Kenny

I am not moving away from it. The debate on the Hanly report is supposed to conclude tomorrow at 4 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not make the contribution he might make when the Hanly report comes before the House.

Mr. Kenny

There are Deputies on this side of the House who are seriously concerned about other hospitals. I want more time to debate the report because I know the Government is in implementation mode. I object to the proposal on that basis.

Mr. Rabbitte

We are being asked to agree to what is being presented as a Friday sitting. It is not a Friday sitting as there will be no Order of Business, oral or written questions or Adjournment Debate, and the Taoiseach will not be present. It is entirely a cosmetic exercise.

Mr. Cassidy

The Deputy's party had Friday sittings.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow Deputy Rabbitte to speak, please.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Labour Party Whip has put proposals to the Government Whip which would involve a serious reorganisation of the way the Dáil does its business. It is being seriously suggested to the House that, while Ministers traipse around the country trying to shore up diminishing Government support, Opposition Members should be present here tomorrow to talk to themselves. The Opposition is expected to man the benches. Let us look at the attendance by Ministers this morning.

Mr. Cassidy

The Government side won the vote 61 to 34.

Mr. B. Lenihan

The Opposition has wasted 20 minutes already.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow Deputy Rabbitte to conclude.

Mr. Rabbitte

Even on ordinary sitting days Ministers are no longer present. If we are to have Friday sittings, we should have the normal Order of Business. While we understand that the Taoiseach will not be able to attend during our forthcoming Presidency of the European Union, in normal circumstances sittings should include the customary Order of Business, Leader's questions, oral questions and so forth. Otherwise it is a sitting in name only and is window dressing. The opportunity presents itself this morning, if one owned a few ponies, to obtain a grant of 100% from the two Ministers present. Other than that, the proposal serves no purpose and the Labour Party will not go along with this sham.

Mr. Gormley

The Green Party agrees with the two previous speakers. Will the Minister clarify whether the Government is considering proper Friday sittings, including an Order of Business, questions and so forth?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise under the proposal.

Mr. Gormley

I, too, object to concluding the debate on the Hanly report. We need a proper debate on this issue, which is of great importance as has been shown by the split in the Cabinet on it, the statements by the Minister for Defence, Deputy Michael Smith, and the presence of Fianna Fáil Party backbench Deputies at the protest in Ennis at the weekend. We need to hear the truth. I believe backbench Deputies in the Fianna Fáil Party would like to speak on the issue.

Mr. Cassidy

There is only one place the Green Party would like to be and it is on the Government benches.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow Deputy Gormley to speak without interruption, please.

Mr. Gormley

Who is telling the truth about the Hanly report? Is it the Minister for Defence or Deputy Killeen in County Clare? What is the position?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot make the speech he intends to make tomorrow on the Hanly report.

Mr. Gormley

I have already made my speech on the Hanly report.

Mr. Stagg

May I make a point of order?

An Ceann Comhairle

We will wait until Deputy Gormley is finished before taking the Deputy's point of order. Deputy Gormley has been interrupted often enough.

Mr. Stagg

I am entitled to make a point of order. On the issue of orderliness in the House, why is the Ceann Comhairle ignoring all the interruptions from the Fianna Fáil Party backbenches this morning?

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy like me to take appropriate action against everyone who interrupts?

Mr. Connaughton

Let them speak.

Mr. Cassidy

Deputy Stagg is a good example of a Deputy who interrupts.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow Deputy Gormley to speak without interruption, please.

Mr. Gormley

I would be happy to listen to the Deputies on the Government backbenches because we never hear them. I would like to hear their views on the Hanly report.

Mr. C. Lenihan

The Deputy complains that we go on too many marches.

Mr. Gormley

What we have here is the Fianna Fáil Party being all things to—

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gormley should return to the proposal before us. If he reads Standing Order 26, he will see that he may make a brief comment, in this case, on the reason he opposes tomorrow's sitting.

Mr. Gormley

I am trying to be brief but I am being constantly interrupted by our friends opposite. The Fianna Fáil Party is being all things to all people on the Hanly report.

Mr. Cregan

Will the Deputy be here tomorrow?

Mr. Gormley

Let the backbenchers come out.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must resume his seat. He can make his speech on the Hanly report when it comes before the House, not when we are discussing this proposal.

Mr. Gormley

Hanly II, the sequel to the current report, will extend—

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gormley should resume his seat.

Mr. Cassidy

What about the Deputy's friends on the Personal Injuries Assessment Board? Will he talk about that tomorrow?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Cassidy should be quiet to allow the Minister to speak.

Mr. Durkan

Bring back Mary.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Minister to speak without interruption, please.

Mr. Durkan

Mary will be back. Deputy Cassidy should be grateful.

Mr. Cassidy

Deputy Durkan should—

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Cassidy, the Chair will have no option but to ask somebody to leave the House if the Minister is not given an opportunity to respond.

Mr. Penrose

The Deputy would be delighted to be asked to leave.

Mr. Durkan

There is a first time for everything.

Mr. Walsh

Friday's sitting will allow for six hours of quality time for debate on the Hanly report and the Residential Tenancies Bill. The Opposition has demanded additional time. It would be necessary to sit on Wednesday and Thursday to provide the amount of time for debate on the two issues on which the Opposition has been demanding additional time, namely, the Hanly report and the Residential Tenancies Bill.

Mr. Stagg

There will be nobody here to hear what is said.

Mr. Walsh

Now that additional time has been provided, the Opposition is inexplicably opposed to it.

Mr. Stagg

The Ministers will be absent.

Mr. Walsh

Every Member is anxious to achieve Dáil reform but the appropriate place to discuss it is in the Dáil reform committee. Any proposals from the committee will be considered on their merits.

Question put: "That the proposal for the sitting and business of the Dáil tomorrow be agreed."

The Dáil divided by electronic means.

Mr. Stagg

To demonstrate the Labour Party's opposition to this type of conduct in the Dáil, as a teller I demand, under Standing Order 69, that the division be taken other than by electronic means.

An Ceann Comhairle

As Deputy Stagg is a Whip, under Standing Order 69 he is entitled to call a vote through the lobby.

Question again put: "That the proposal for the sitting and business of the Dáil tomorrow be agreed."

Tá

Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Callanan, Joe.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Cassidy, Donie.Collins, Michael.Connolly, Paudge.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Cregan, John.Curran, John.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Ellis, John.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Harkin, Marian.Haughey, Seán.Hoctor, Máire.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.

Kirk, Seamus.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McDowell, Michael.McEllistrim, Thomas.McGuinness, John.McHugh, Paddy.Martin, Micheál.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Nolan, M. J.Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Seán.Ryan, Eoin.Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Wallace, Dan.Walsh, Joe.Wilkinson, Ollie.

Níl

Boyle, Dan.Broughan, Thomas P.Burton, Joan.Connaughton, Paul.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Cuffe, Ciarán.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard J.English, Damien.Gilmore, Eamon.Gogarty, Paul.Gormley, John.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Michael D.Howlin, Brendan.Kehoe, Paul.Kenny, Enda.Lynch, Kathleen.

McCormack, Padraic.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Olivia.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Murphy, Gerard.Naughten, Denis.O'Sullivan, Jan.Penrose, Willie.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Ryan, Seán.Sherlock, Joe.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Stagg and Durkan.

Question declared carried.

Mr. Rabbitte

I want to ask the Minister, Deputy Walsh, about the commitment entered into by the Government at the time of the publication of the second interim report of the Flood tribunal to bring legislation before the House before the end of the year to establish a corruption assets bureau.

Mr. Walsh

The Flood tribunal?

Mr. Quinn

Is that a reply?

Mr. Rabbitte

The matter must be very high on the Cabinet agenda.

Mr. Kenny

The Minister, Deputy Smith, would have answered at this stage.

Mr. Durkan

He would have followed it up.

Mr. Kenny

He would have fired another bazooka.

Mr. Walsh

The Tribunal of Inquiry Evidence (Amendment) Bill, which proposes to deal with matters arising from the resignation of Mr. Justice Flood, will be taken this session.

Mr. Rabbitte

No, that legislation relates to the question of deciding costs. When Mr. Justice Flood retired the question of apportioning costs gave rise to that promise. I am referring specifically to the commitment in respect of a corruption assets bureau. It was pledged that the legislation would be brought before the House before the end of the year. Where is the legislation?

Mr. Walsh

The Deputy is referring to the Proceeds of Corruption Bill to target white collar crime and corruption in the public and private sectors. Changes in the law are contemplated in the proceeds of crime (amendment) Bill.

Mr. Rabbitte

When is it likely to be taken?

Mr. Walsh

I understand it is currently before committee.

Mr. Kenny

The legislation is not even published.

Mr. Rabbitte

What committee is it before?

Mr. Crawford

The Punchestown committee.

Mr. Walsh

I understand that is being taken as part of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 1999, which was published on 19 November 1999, and is awaiting Committee Stage.

Mr. Rabbitte

That is dumbfounding.