John Deasy
Question:52 Mr. Deasy asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he has plans to address the findings of the SAVI report. [28333/03]
Priority Questions. - Sexual Offences.
Breeda Moynihan-Cronin
Question:53 Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if his attention has been drawn to the recent report produced by the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre which indicated that a woman is raped, on average, every 90 minutes; in view of this, and the recent crime figures showing an increase of 42% in the number of sexual assaults during the third quarter of 2003, the steps being taken to reduce the number of rapes and sexual assaults; the steps being taken to promote the full reporting of all such offences; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [28400/03]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 52 and 53 together.
I am aware of a recent newspaper article which claimed that a woman is raped every 90 minutes. In the interests of accuracy, I clarify to the House that this figure is not taken from the Sexual Assault and Violence in Ireland report, also known as the SAVI report. There are two points which must be made. First, the SAVI report, which was published in March 2002, found that 7.8%, or almost one in 12, female victims of adult sexual assault reported their experiences to the Garda. However, this figure refers to all forms of sexual assault, including, for example, indecent exposure and is not restricted to the crime of rape. It is worth noting that one of the common reasons for adults not to disclose abuse in the form of sexual abuse was that they thought it was too trivial. Those are the reasons given in the SAVI report.
Second, the reporting rate of 7.8% in the SAVI report refers to the lifetime experience of women interviewed rather than their experience taken on an annual basis. The claim that a woman is raped every 90 minutes is a newspaper extrapolation from the number of rape cases which actually take place grossed up by a factor of 12 for non-reporting and then divided into each day of the year.
As the Deputy has noted, the provisional statistics for the first nine months of this year show an increase of 42% in the number of sexual assaults in the third quarter of 2003. However, it is worth noting that in the same period, rape offences showed a significant decrease, with rape of a female down by 20% and section 4 rape down by 64%. The overall figure for sexual assaults in the first nine months of this year shows an overall decrease of 5%, or 76 fewer instances on the same period last year. The Commissioner has also informed me that there has been a 13% decrease in the number of sexual assaults for the 12 months ending on 31 October 2003. In addition, the overall category of sexual offences is showing a decrease of 20% in the same period.
While I accept there must be a huge amount of non-reporting of sexual offences, I do not accept the extrapolation by that particular newspaper. Although I fully accept it was trying to do its best, it just multiplied the number of rapes by 12 and divided them into the number of days in the year, whereas the non-reporting multiple of 12, on which it was relying, dealt with a far wider range of offences. In one of the most significant reasons category for non-reporting, 15% were regarded by the victim as too trivial to report. That would not apply to rape.
In one breath the Minister accepts there was a huge amount of non-reporting of these crimes but then he understates, or questions, the level of non-reporting generally. Some 42% of women experience some form of sexual abuse. If one looks at the figures in the 2002 census, that equates to approximately 620,000 women. Some 28% of men experience some form of sexual abuse, which amounts to 399,000 if one equates it to the 2002 census. We are talking about over one million people.
Last month's figures from the Department show that the rape of a female was down 20%. The Rape Crisis Centre's figures, which compare January to August 2002 with January to August 2003, show that it was up 10%. The Rape Crisis Centre's figures indicate that fewer people are reporting to the Garda.
The Minister has questioned me about public order offences and non-reporting. The people who deal with this crime dispute the Department's figures and strongly believe it is on the upswing and is not going down. They have asked the Minister to look at the legal system and at what it does to people, that is, what they go through when they are victims of sexual abuse. The Minister must look at some of the basic suggestions of the Rape Crisis Centre and people who deal with these crimes. I am talking about speedier trials and making the case that people are not comfortable with the complex and harrowing legal system and, for that reason, they are not reporting these crimes.
The Minister is not dealing with these issues and he is questioning the figures. Those who work in this area are of the strong opinion that the number of these crimes is on the rise and is not going down. The Minister questioned that and understated the level of non-reporting. That is dangerous. The Minister must accept that this report found there is a massive level of sexual abuse and it is increasing.
I have no doubt the amount of sexual abuse and sexual crime greatly exceeds the amount of reported crime, but it is important for the Deputy to have regard to the report on which he is relying. The report contains on page 131 an interesting graph which sets out the reasons people did not report offences. It is interesting that by far the greatest category of reasons for non-reporting was that the victims thought the case was too trivial. That applied to adult and child abuse cases. The next most prominent reason, which was relative to younger people, that is, child abuse, was that they were too young to do anything about it. I stress to the Deputy that this was a lifetime's history. Less than 5% stated as a reason that they wanted to prevent family distress. Again, less than 5% stated that they felt ashamed. There are similar figures for child and adult abuse in that regard. Less than 5% blamed themselves for the incident, which was an unfortunate fact.
A Leas-Cheann-Comhairle, I asked the Minister what he was going to do about non-reporting.
Hold on a second. Let me answer the question.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
Allow the Minister to speak.
Deputy Deasy never likes getting the facts.
Is the Minister just going to quote from a report?
I am not.
What is the Minister going to do about the non-reporting levels?
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
The Deputy should wait. He will get a chance to ask a further supplementary question.
The Deputy has quoted a figure from the SAVI report about the reasons people do not report sexual offences. If he had the energy and the intellectual drive—
I asked what the Minister was going to do about non-reporting.
—to read the report he would see the reasons are wholly different from the—
The Minister is quoting it back to me. I asked him what he was going to do about non-reporting. He will do nothing.
The Deputy is shouting again.
The Minister is not answering again.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
Please, allow the Minister to speak.
The Deputy put a question to me based on a wholly false premise—
The Minister should sit down if he is not going to answer the question.
—and it arises from the fact that he has not read the report.
Those figures are correct.
His problem is that he does not know the reasons given by victims for non-reporting.
Does the Minister think so? He is waffling on.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
Order.
I am not waffling on. I am reading—
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
I call Deputy Breeda Moynihan-Cronin.
The figures are there. Is the Minister disputing them?
Deputy Breeda Moynihan-Cronin also asked a question. I wish to make one thing clear to Deputy Deasy. He cannot swan in here and quote newspaper articles without going back to the original sources.
Those are the Rape Crisis Centre's figures.
If he goes back to the original sources—
Whose figure's does the Minister believe – the Department's or Rape Crisis Centre's?
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
Order, please. Allow the Minister to make his point.
If the Deputy goes back to the original sources, he will see that the points he is making are largely incorrect. I am merely pointing that out to him.
The Minister believes the Department's numbers and not those of the Rape Crisis Centre. Is that what he is saying?
If the Deputy stopped mouthing-off for five minutes and read pages 131 and 132 of the report—
Whose figures does the Minister believe?
—he would realise that he is way out on a limb and talking nonsense.
Its figures are wrong and the Minister's are right. That is what it comes down to.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
Order, please. Deputy Deasy should desist.
We have a short time today and I do not want to deal with newspaper reports but with the SAVI report. The findings of the SAVI report are frightening, even if only two people were raped. There is a number of reasons so few women, in particular, report assaults and we must deal with them. As the Minister said, the first reason is they are terrified their case will become public. We must deal with that. The women interviewed said there was a lack of consistency in how judges approach and treat women who have been raped or violently attacked. We must also deal with that. I understand the Department provided some funding to deal with that problem but we do not know what happened that money – I think it was about €300,000. I raised that issue with the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, at a committee meeting last week and he did not know what had happened it.
Women are put off by the system and do not have confidence in it. They must wait at free legal aid centres as they cannot afford private solicitors. We must deal with these issues. Will anybody act on the recommendations of the SAVI report? If so, how will the Minister deal with it?
It is worthwhile putting on the record that the SAVI report, with which I am concerned today, does not justify the rape figure quoted by Deputy Deasy in a debate the other evening.
Will the Minister answer my question?
I make that point because it does not do so.
On the point Deputy Breeda Moynihan-Cronin raised, the reasons for non-reporting are as I set out earlier. It is interesting to note that the SAVI report carefully examined the satisfaction ratings of victims in respect of the services received from the Garda Síochána by those who, for instance, experienced sexual abuse as a child. I wish to defend the Garda—
I did not say anything against the Garda. I give them full support.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
Please allow the Minister to make his statement.
I am talking about the Garda for whom I have responsibility and I say—
On a point of order, in my contribution I did not mention the Garda. That is not the issue here. I asked the Minister three specific questions.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
That is not a point of order.
The survey suggests that the Garda, for whom I am responsible, treat the victims of sexual assault in a caring way. The Deputy then asked about the way in which the court process is perceived to affect victims, women in particular and male victims on occasion. There is no doubt that an adversarial system such as we have, in which the complainant is a witness, is intimidating for any woman going to give evidence. I accept there is an element of intimidation purely on the basis that most people having been brutalised once do not want to relive the occasion in unsympathetic circumstances.
It must be remembered, however, that justice is a public process in which the accused is entitled not to be convicted unless the case is proved beyond reasonable doubt. The accused must be in a position to challenge the victim's evidence and to be represented in court. As the Deputy knows, the law has changed in recent years to prevent wholly irrelevant questioning of victims about their sexual history with a view to embarrassing them. That is a step forward.
Legal aid has also been provided for victims of sexual crimes to advise them on their rights and to make submissions, where necessary, regarding proposals to cross-examine them on their sexual history. Victim Support and groups such as the Rape Crisis Centre make every effort to assist victims of sexual crime. They provide psychological support in what is for the victims, and I fully accept this, a traumatic re-enactment on the public stage of the offence committed against them.
From my experience of both prosecuting and defending cases, the majority of the Judiciary are sympathetic to and protective of victims, both male and female, of sexual crime.
Have I time for a supplementary question?
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
A very brief one as we have exceeded the time.
The SAVI report made eight recommendations, the last of which was that a consultative committee on sexual violence be established. Will that be proposed and will the Minister agree to it?
I am considering it. I am well disposed towards that proposal.