Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Nov 2003

Vol. 575 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be No. 1 Broadcasting (Funding) Bill 2003 [Seanad] – Second Stage; and No. 21 Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Powers and Functions) Bill 2003 – Order for Report, Report and Final Stages.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. and business shall be interrupted not later than 10 p.m.; the proceedings on No. 1 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m.; Report and Final Stages of No. 21 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 10 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. Private Members' Business shall be No. 35 – motion on local government funding, resumed, to conclude at 8.30 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are three proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed?

Mr. Stagg

The late sitting is an attempt to find additional time to debate legislation in the House and, presumably, keep the Government accountable to the House, which is the Opposition's dual role. I note we had a 14 week recess during the summer. Four weeks back from this, the House took a further one week recess which was strongly opposed by the Opposition. The Tánaiste and the Government Chief Whip strongly argued that the recess was family friendly, so that Members could have quality time with their families. Late sittings, however, which are not considered as Dáil reform, are entirely family unfriendly.

Question, "That the proposal for the late sitting be agreed to", put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 1 agreed?

Mr. Kenny

I have consistently opposed dealing with legislation by guillotine motion. While I understand what is contained in these two Bills, to be consistent I am opposing the proposal on the grounds that it is proposed to guillotine this Bill at 7 p.m.

Mr. Stagg

Arising from changes in Standing Orders over recent years, it is now impossible to have a filibuster in the House.

Ms Hanafin

Just as well.

Mr. Stagg

Arising from the absence of a filibuster where Members could speak for three days without a break if they wished—

Mr. O'Donoghue

That sounds like purgatory.

Mr. Stagg

—there is now no need to guillotine motions. The only time there was such a need was when the filibuster was organised by the Opposition. In this case, there is inadequate debate on a Bill if enough time is not provided in the limited speaking slots available to Members. When a Member wants to speak on a Bill, he or she should be allowed to speak in these limited times. I recommend that the Taoiseach looks at the Labour Party's proposals for Dáil reform which deal with this issue. These would give adequate time for legislation without the need to guillotine motions and for late sittings. It is not acceptable that Bills such as these are guillotined.

Mr. Sargent

Briefly, so as not to deprive the House of further time, I wish to add to the Deputy's remarks. The rush to guillotine Bills has become a habit. Dáil reform must be looked at again and the Green Party's proposals, with those of the Labour Party, need to be implemented rather than discussed.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 1 be agreed to."

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Michael.Andrews, Barry.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Niall.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Seamus.Browne, John.Callanan, Joe.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Cassidy, Donie.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cregan, John.Cullen, Martin.Curran, John.Davern, Noel.Dempsey, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Ellis, John.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Hoctor, Máire.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.

Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Seamus.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McDowell, Michael.McEllistrim, Thomas.McGuinness, John.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.Nolan, M.J.Ó Cuív, Éamon.Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donoghue, John.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Fiona.Parlon, Tom.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Wilkinson, Ollie.Woods, Michael.Wright, G.V.

Níl

Boyle, Dan.Broughan, Thomas P.Burton, Joan.Connaughton, Paul.Connolly, Paudge.Costello, Joe.Coveney, Simon.Cowley, Jerry.Crawford, Seymour.Crowe, Seán.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard J.English, Damien.Enright, Olwyn.Ferris, Martin.Gilmore, Eamon.Gogarty, Paul.Gormley, John.Harkin, Marian.Hayes, Tom.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael D.Hogan, Phil.Howlin, Brendan.Kehoe, Paul.Kenny, Enda.Lynch, Kathleen.McCormack, Pádraic.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Finian.McGrath, Paul.McHugh, Paddy.McManus, Liz. Mitchell, Olivia.

Níl–continued

Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Naughten, Denis.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Penrose, Willie.Perry, John.Rabbitte, Pat.

Ring, Michael.Ryan, Eamon.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Sherlock, Joe.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Timmins, Billy.Twomey, Liam.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 21, Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Powers and Functions) Bill 2003, Order for Report, Report and Final Stages, agreed to?

Mr. Stagg

As in the previous case, the same argument concerning guillotines pertains here. The point made by Deputy Sargent on No. 1 is pertinent, in so far as proposals have been made by all Opposition parties on Dáil reform which would eliminate the need for guillotines and give 30% additional time for work in the Dáil Chamber. In spite of that, when we raised the matter with the Chairperson of the Sub-committee on Dáil Reform, the Government Chief Whip, we were told there might be a meeting some time in the new year. There does not seem to be any urgency on the Government's side to bring in Dáil reform that would eliminate the need for guillotines on important Bills.

I have some sympathy for the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, who appears to have been operating in limbo since his appointment. We are not opposed to the measure but we are opposed to the imposition of a guillotine.

The Taoiseach

I listened to what the Labour Party Whip said, and remind him that when we wanted additional time for an extended sitting last Thursday he opposed it. He also opposed a late sitting last Friday.

Mr. Stagg

That was sanitised. There was no vote, no accountability.

The Taoiseach

It is nonsense for him to say he is in favour of more time for debate.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 21 be agreed to."

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Michael.Andrews, Barry.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Niall.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Seamus.Browne, John.Callanan, Joe.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Cassidy, Donie.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cregan, John.Cullen, Martin.Curran, John.Davern, Noel.Dempsey, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Ellis, John.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.

Fleming, Seán.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Hoctor, Máire.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Seamus.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McEllistrim, Thomas.McGuinness, John.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.Nolan, M.J.Ó Cuív, Éamon.Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie. O'Dea, Willie.

Tá–continued

O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donoghue, John.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Fiona.Parlon, Tom.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.

Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Wilkinson, Ollie.Woods, Michael.Wright, G.V.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Boyle, Dan.Broughan, Thomas P.Bruton, Richard.Burton, Joan.Connolly, Paudge.Costello, Joe.Coveney, Simon.Cowley, Jerry.Crawford, Seymour.Crowe, Seán.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard J.English, Damien.Ferris, Martin.Gilmore, Eamon.Gogarty, Paul.Gormley, John.Harkin, Marian.Hayes, Tom.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael D.Hogan, Phil.Howlin, Brendan.Kenny, Enda.Lynch, Kathleen.McCormack, Padraic.

McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Olivia.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Murphy, Gerard.Naughten, Denis.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Penrose, Willie.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairi.Rabbitte, Pat.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Eamon.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Sherlock, Joe.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

Mr. Kenny

The disabilities Bill, which is to provide measures to facilitate the equal participation of people with disabilities, is listed for publication during this session but we have not seen it yet. Is the publication of the Bill dependent on finalisation of the Education for Persons with Disabilities Bill? When is Committee Stage of this Bill expected to take place? There are serious concerns and a great deal of anxiety among people in the disability sector about both of these Bills. Can the Taoiseach clarify the true position?

The Taoiseach

It is hoped to take Committee Stage of the Education for Persons with Disabilities Bill in January. While we would like to have that Bill in place, it is not the reason for the hold up with the disabilities Bill. As I explained yesterday, we are trying to finalise the Bill across a number of Departments under five frameworks. Hopefully, work on the Bill will be concluded during the Christmas break. We are not waiting for the Education for Persons with Disabilities Bill, we are waiting for the physical completion of the work.

It is hoped the Education for Persons with Disabilities Bill will be passed in the spring, by which time the disabilities Bill should be before the House.

Mr. Kenny

I take it there will be no impediment to the disabilities Bill if the Education for Persons with Disabilities Bill is not finalised.

The Taoiseach

There is a large volume of work involved in getting the Bill through. I hope it comes before the House during the spring session during which time consideration of the Education for Persons with Disabilities Bill will be completed also.

Mr. Kenny

There will be more to come in January, obviously.

Mr. Rabbitte

Yesterday, on Newstalk 106FM the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, told the people that in addition to his budget of €176 million, he was granting a further €66 million to horse racing. The Minister stated this to presenter Mr. Ger Gilroy on three occasions. When he returned to his Department, it had to issue a statement saying that he was wrong.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a question on legislation?

Mr. Rabbitte

I do, sir. It relates to the trade descriptions Act.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is there a trade descriptions Act, Taoiseach?

Mr. Rabbitte

Does the Taoiseach intend to apply it to Cabinet Ministers?

Mr. S. Ryan

There is no comment from the Taoiseach.

Mr. Rabbitte

I have a transcript.

An Ceann Comhairle

No legislation is promised.

Mr. Sargent

I notice that the Government proposes to bring forward a national monuments Bill to deal with the inanimate environment. I wish to know what prospect there is for legislation to create a roll of honour for people who have served the country.

An Ceann Comhairle

The national monuments Bill, Taoiseach.

Mr. Sargent

I wish the House to note in particular that writers like Risteard Ó Glaisne—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to find another way to raise the matter. I call the Taoiseach to reply on the national monuments Bill.

The Taoiseach

It is due early in 2004.

Mr. R. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach bring forward the Central Bank and financial services authority Bill for urgent debate? Yesterday, the ECOFIN Ministers were unable either to enforce the existing rules of the stability pact or develop alternative ones.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a debate which would be more appropriate to Second Stage of the Bill when it comes before the House.

Mr. R. Bruton

This is a high stakes game for people who are borrowing or people who are mortgage holders.

An Ceann Comhairle

I suggest the Deputy should submit a question to the Minister for Finance.

Mr. R. Bruton

It is important that we have an opportunity to debate the issue in the House.

The Taoiseach

The financial regulations (Central Bank) (No. 2) Bill will be published in about one week.

Mr. Howlin

In light of the clear majority of Members wishing to restore community employment to last year's level, will a supplementary Estimate be introduced before the end of the year to enable 40 Government backbenchers and one Minister of State to join with the Opposition to restore the scheme?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is legislation promised?

The Taoiseach

No.

Mr. Allen

It will be in the budget I suppose.

Mr. Crawford

In view of the serious changes in agriculture which have occurred over the last number of decades, it is significant that decoupling has taken place without being discussed in the House. Many young farmers—

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a question on legislation?

Mr. Crawford

When will the land Bill or any other agriculture Bill come before the House to allow Members to discuss the future of farming?

The Taoiseach

The Bill will come before the House early in 2004.

Mr. Sherlock

In view of the many issues arising in the Irish Prisons Service, particularly the possible transfer of prisoners from Spike Island, can the Taoiseach tell the House when it is proposed to introduce the Prison Service Bill to enable us to debate these matters?

The Taoiseach

Work is in progress on the heads of the Bill. As they are not complete, it is not possible to indicate when the legislation will come before the House.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

In light of recent reports on the health service, is it still intended to proceed, in line with the report of the Commission on Nursing, with the nurses and midwives Bill? When does the Taoiseach expect the legislation to come before the House?

The Taoiseach

The heads of the nurses and midwives Bill through which the recommendations of the Commission on Nursing will be implemented are expected before Christmas. The legislation will be drafted then.

Mr. Stanton

My question relates to the matter raised by Deputy Sherlock. The Taoiseach told me last week of possible legislation to privatise the prison escort service and the running of prisons. Is such legislation required? If so, is it being prepared or are there plans to prepare it?

The Taoiseach

There is no legislation of that sort on the list.

Ms Lynch

Will the Taoiseach ensure that the promised social welfare budget is poverty-proofed to ensure that single parents do not fall into poverty?

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter does not arise. Does the Deputy have a question on promised legislation?

Ms Lynch

My question involves the forthcoming social welfare Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is a social welfare Bill promised?

The Taoiseach

The Bill will be before the House in the new year.

Mr. Boyle

On the Adjournment last night, I raised the issues of public notification of pollution incidents and the wait for a European directive which will come into force in 2005. Does the Government intend to introduce primary legislation to require public notification of incidents of serious pollution before the directive is introduced?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy should put down a question to the Minister. If there is a directive, there could be primary legislation.

Mr. Deenihan

On a number of occasions the Taoiseach has promised that the health and social care professionals regulatory Bill would be published before Christmas. Can the Taoiseach provide the House with a commitment that the Bill will be published before Christmas?

The Taoiseach

The date I gave was January 2004. That is still the date.

Ms O'Sullivan

The Minister for Education and Science has indicated that he intends to add to the institutions included under the Residential Institutions Redress Act. I understand the provision is to be made by way of secondary legislation through regulations. When is it intended to bring such legislation forward?

The Taoiseach

Legislation is not required. The Minister will make a decision as soon as possible.

Mr. Allen

In view of the inconclusive nature of an Oireachtas hearing on electronic voting which took place with the Minister yesterday, will the Taoiseach cease all planning of electronic voting for local and European elections?

An Ceann Comhairle

I suggest that the Deputy should submit a question.

Mr. Allen

Will the Taoiseach refrain from awarding contracts to former general secretaries of Fianna Fáil to conduct the public relations surrounding electronic voting.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Burton.

Mr. Allen

Yesterday, €4.5 million was given to a former Fianna Fáil general secretary—

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Allen, you are out of order. I suggest you submit a question on the matter.

Mr. Allen

—to sell the idea of electronic voting when the committee had not even concluded its hearings on it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask you to resume your seat and allow Deputy Burton to speak.

Ms Burton

In view of Ireland's upcoming Presidency of the European Union, will the Taoiseach allow a debate on the Stability and Growth Pact before the recess?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is a debate promised?

Ms Burton

In view of the position Ireland took the other night when it voted with France and Germany—

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a matter for the Whips unless a debate has already been promised.

Ms Burton

—apparently against the interests of smaller countries—

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a matter for the Whips. We cannot have everybody asking questions on debates they would like.

Ms Burton

In the context of the long-term stability of the euro currency, which is important to this country—

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Durkan.

Ms Burton

Will the Taoiseach allow time for a debate?

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Durkan.

Mr. Stagg

On a point of order, which I have made before, it is not a matter for the Whips. It is a matter for the Government to order the business of the House. It is for the Taoiseach, not the Chair, to indicate whether he wants the matter referred to the Whips.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has ruled many times—

Mr. Stagg

The Chair is wrong.

An Ceann Comhairle

—and will not allow every Member of the House to ask for a debate on an issue within his or her constituency or otherwise. We could not do the business of the House that way. The Chair has ruled on the matter and I call Deputy Durkan.

Mr. Stagg

On a point of order—

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, you have made your point of order.

Mr. Stagg

—all Members of this House have equal rights.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has responded and has ruled on the matter.

Mr. Stagg

It is your business, a Cheann Comhairle, to protect the interests and rights of Members.

An Ceann Comhairle

Where a debate is promised, it is appropriate to ask the Taoiseach on the Order of Business—

Mr. Stagg

All Members have the same rights.

An Ceann Comhairle

—otherwise it is a matter for the Whips to arrange the business.

Mr. Stagg

The Ceann Comhairle cannot rule that one Member has more rights than another.

Mr. Durkan

In view of the likely confusion arising from traffic congestion, particularly as Luas works progress, and bearing in mind the possibility of a truck wedged in a tunnel on the north side—

An Ceann Comhairle

Do you have a question on legislation?

Mr. Durkan

This question is about legislation. We must also bear in mind the possibility of trains on stilts on the south side and that when Luas works are concluded, there is the likelihood of major traffic problems when a train emerges on to the road at critical junctions throughout the city.

An Ceann Comhairle

That question is not on legislation.

Mr. Durkan

Will it be possible to cater for the likely confusion in the transport reform Bill? Will the Minister bring it forward as a matter of urgency because reform is needed in that area.

The Taoiseach

The legislation will be introduced next year.

Mr. Durkan

When?

The Taoiseach

In 2004.