Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 Dec 2003

Vol. 576 No. 3

Ceisteanna – Questions. Priority Questions. - Industrial Relations.

Joe Sherlock

Question:

2 Mr. Sherlock asked the Minister for Defence if he has received a request from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform or the Prison Service for the possible use of Defence Forces personnel in prisons in the event of industrial action by prison officers; the response he has given to such a request; the training that will be given to personnel, if they are to be used in this role; the consultation there has been with the representative organisations; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [29529/03]

Mr. M. Smith

At its meeting on 29 September the Government set up a group comprising the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Minister for Finance and me to deal with the evolving industrial relations situation in the Prison Service, including the putting in place of contingency arrangements in the event of industrial action. Prior to that there had been direct contacts at official level between the Irish Prison Service and my Department and the Defence Forces, and with the Garda authorities.

It continues to be the hope of the Government that this matter can be settled without recourse to industrial action. However, in line with the Government decision, I can confirm that contingency planning is at an advanced stage for the possible use of Defence Forces personnel in the event of industrial action in the prisons. The question of training is being addressed in the context of the contingency planning.

Since the deployment of military personnel is specifically excluded from the scope of representation, the question of discussion or consultation with the Defence Forces representative associations does not arise. As the Deputy will appreciate, it would be inappropriate to provide details of the contingency plans being put in place. Suffice to say that the Government has a duty to ensure the prison system continues to operate in the event of industrial action by prison staff.

Mr. Sherlock

Has a formal request been received from the prison authorities for assistance in the event of a dispute? Does the Minister consider it appropriate that troops should be used in this role or as pawns in the dispute between the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Prison Officers Association?

Mr. M. Smith

The Defence Forces would not be used as pawns in any circumstances. In a democratic society there is an obligation on a Government to ensure the prison system operates efficiently and effectively. The Deputy will appreciate that where there is potential for circumstances to arise, extreme though they may be, where prison officers might not run the Prison Service, there is an obligation on the Government, particularly the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to put in place certain arrangements. In this case, the operation would be put in place by the Garda Síochána. The members of the Defence Forces would act under its instructions, as prescribed over so many Governments in terms of the role of the Defence Forces, to defend the State and aid the civil power in specific circumstances. I hope this will not happen and that the matter can be resolved without such intervention. However, in extreme circumstances where the Prison Service must be operated without prison officers, the Garda Síochána and Defence Forces will become involved, but there is still time to resolve the matter.

Mr. Sherlock

I note when replying the Minister stated there was no consultation with representative organisations. Will he elaborate on this? If the troops are used in this role, will they be entitled to special allowances, will they take part on a voluntary basis or will personnel be compelled to act as substitute warders?

Mr. M. Smith

The deployment of military personnel on any mission is a matter for the Government and the Dáil. The matter is not subject to discussions with the representative associations. In the event of this action taking place, allowances, which are already the subject of discussion, will be made, but I cannot say what the specific payments will be. They are quite generous. The Deputy can be assured that, in the event of the Defence Forces being involved, subject to direction from the Garda Síochána, in the event of a breakdown in negotiations between the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the prison officers, Army personnel will receive appropriate allowances. My understanding is that, by most standards, the allowances are reasonably generous.

Mr. Sherlock

Will the personnel be compelled to act as substitute wardens?

Mr. M. Smith

I have never experienced a circumstance where the Defence Forces have been found wanting when asked to meet their obligations in aid to the civil power, or where questions have been asked about whether their assistance was volunteered or otherwise. It has never arisen. The Deputy will recall circumstances in the Border and the fallout from many strikes of different kinds with which the Defence Forces have had to deal. It has never been brought to my attention that they have been found wanting in meeting their obligations as set out and established by successive Governments.