It is proposed to take No. 12a, motion re presentation and circulation of Revised Estimates 2004; No. 3, Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2004 — Second Stage (resumed); No. 21, An Bord Bia (Amendment) Bill 2003 [Seanad] — Second Stage (resumed). It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. 12a shall be decided without debate and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith, and the proceedings on the resumed Second Stage of No. 3 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 3.30 p.m.
Order of Business.
There are two proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 12a without debate agreed?
What caused the delay in the circulation of the Revised Estimates as set out in the public notice today?
Will we require a Supplementary Estimate to provide extra security for the visit of President George W. Bush, given the thousands who will protest against him?
That does not arise.
There will be thousands on the streets.
Will the Minister please explain to the House why, a handful of weeks into this session and this year, we are looking at revised Estimates already? What does that indicate in terms of the degree of preparation and the exactitude of those responsible for preparing the Estimates in the first instance for 2004? Here we are so early into the year and clearly much of what has been presented no longer has any reality. This was pointed out by Opposition Deputies repeatedly at the time and here we are with revised Estimates in February. Surely this is indicative of something absolutely wrong within the Department.
It is not the first time Sinn Féin got things wrong.
It is what the Department got wrong.
Allow the Minister to continue please.
The Estimates forwarded to the House prior to the budget was the Book of Estimates. Following the budget there were new provisions, which happens every year, and now we have the Revised Estimates which contains the original Estimates, as decided, and the additional items put forward in the budget. There is nothing sinister or underhand. It is totally open, transparent and accountable.
Is the Minister aware that the Department——
The Minister for Defence, without interruption, please.
I ask the Deputy to take his beating now and then.
I hope that was not a punishment beating he was referring to.
I will come back to the Deputy in relation to a delay. I am not aware of any particular delay. What we have here is a provision which enables us to proceed with the Revised Estimates, but I will be in touch with the Deputy directly.
I am sure it will be earth shattering.
Is the proposal agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 3, conclusion of Second Stage of the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2004, agreed?
It is not agreed. We have a long-standing objection to guillotines. I note that the Minister of State or acting Whip has changed the business from what the Government Whip brought in yesterday. We object to guillotines as a matter of principle.
I welcome what seems to be a reshuffle of Ministers of State and welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, as the new Whip. I hope he will be in that position for a very long time. On No. 3, there are many Members on both sides of the House lining up — they were fighting with one another on the floor of the House last night — trying to speak on the Bill. There is a limited amount of time remaining for that debate. We have had some success by putting pressure on the Government to stop wholesale guillotines. We ask that this guillotine be removed and, if not, we will oppose this measure.
The use of the guillotine has become more widespread under this Government but, perhaps, worse than that is the practice of introducing amendments at the last minute. It happened yesterday at the Select Committee on Health and Children where amendments were introduced and we did not have time to scrutinise them. This week the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Coughlan, was on the radio with my colleague, Deputy Boyle, when she revealed she was looking at amendments to be introduced to the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. We have not had an opportunity to look at these amendments.
There are no amendments on Second Stage.
Obviously it would be preferable if we saw these amendments. According to the Minister, they are important amendments and it would be helpful if we could see them before Second Stage is completed. It is wrong to introduce important amendments at the last stage. The Government's treatment of the Opposition in this regard is a sign of deep-seated arrogance.
A Deputy
Its treatment of the people.
The longer the Government is in office the more arrogant it is becoming.
I also object to the imposition of a guillotine on Second Stage of the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2004. It is absolutely imperative that all Deputies who wish to participate on Second Stage are accommodated. I know the Minister has been under some pressure recently and this has been reported in lots of media outlets. This morning I was greatly shocked to note that under a photograph of the Minister read the caption "The Passion of the Christ". I did not realise that the Minister, Deputy Coughlan, was in need of such sympathy and support. Nevertheless, I hope the same passion is not visited on the House and that the Minister for Defence, Deputy Michael Smith, and the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Coughlan, agree to remove the guillotine from this debate.
I can imagine how shocked the Deputy was when he saw the photograph.
I am sure the Minister was shocked. He will never witness the same——
Deputy Ó Caoláin should allow the Minister to continue without interruption.
The Deputy has given people a few shocks in his time.
In 1997, in 2002 and in 2007 or earlier, if you please.
The Deputy should allow the Minister to continue without interruption.
(Interruptions).
I say to Deputy Gormley that I have been accused now and then of being arrogant, and I confess that maybe at times I was, but you are a red hot competitor any time.
The Minister should address his remarks through the Chair.
We are on Second Stage of the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2004 and everybody knows that is not the time to introduce amendments. Amendments are introduced on Committee Stage. There is a time limit on the debate to afford the opportunity for payments to be made. Committee Stage has to be concluded at a certain time and Deputies know that well. We are trying to provide as much time as possible for Second Stage and an even longer time for Committee Stage. That will give every Member the best possible opportunity to ensure that the legislation that goes through the House is properly analysed and developed in a way that enhances the provisions of the Bill. There is nothing else involved.
Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 3 be agreed."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 66; Níl, 48.
Tá
- Ahern, Michael.
- Ahern, Noel.
- Andrews, Barry.
- Ardagh, Seán.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Brady, Johnny.
- Brady, Martin.
- Brennan, Seamus.
- Browne, John.
- Callanan, Joe.
- Carey, Pat.
- Cassidy, Donie.
- Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.
- Coughlan, Mary.
- Cregan, John.
- Cullen, Martin.
- Curran, John.
- Dempsey, Tony.
- Dennehy, John.
- Devins, Jimmy.
- Ellis, John.
- Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
- Fleming, Seán.
- Fox, Mildred.
- Gallagher, Pat The Cope.
- Glennon, Jim.
- Grealish, Noel.
- Haughey, Seán.
- Healy-Rae, Jackie.
- Hoctor, Máire.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kelly, Peter.
- Killeen, Tony.
- Kirk, Seamus.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Lenihan, Conor.
- McCreevy, Charlie.
- McDowell, Michael.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- McGuinness, John.
- Moynihan, Donal.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- Mulcahy, Michael.
- Nolan, M. J.
- Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
- O’Connor, Charlie.
- O’Dea, Willie.
- O’Donnell, Liz.
- O’Flynn, Noel.
- O’Keeffe, Batt.
- O’Keeffe, Ned.
- O’Malley, Fiona.
- O’Malley, Tim.
- Power, Peter.
- Roche, Dick.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Sexton, Mae.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Smith, Michael.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Wilkinson, Ollie.
- Woods, Michael.
- Wright, G. V.
Níl
- Boyle, Dan.
- Breen, James.
- Broughan, Thomas P.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Connolly, Paudge.
- Costello, Joe.
- Crawford, Seymour.
- Crowe, Seán.
- Cuffe, Ciarán.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- English, Damien.
- Enright, Olwyn.
- Ferris, Martin.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Gormley, John.
- Gregory, Tony.
- Hayes, Tom.
- Healy, Seamus.
- Higgins, Joe.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Kehoe, Paul.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Lynch, Kathleen.
- McGrath, Finian.
- McGrath, Paul.
- McHugh, Paddy.
- McManus, Liz.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
- Murphy, Gerard.
- Noonan, Michael.
- Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
- Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
- O’Sullivan, Jan.
- Pattison, Seamus.
- Penrose, Willie.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Ring, Michael.
- Ryan, Eamon.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Stanton, David.
- Timmins, Billy.
- Twomey, Liam.
- Upton, Mary.
- Wall, Jack.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Browne and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.
Question declared carried.